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Old 2004-10-19, 23:51   Link #41
Enron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somedude
You need better speakers/headphones then. There's a HUGE quality loss at 128, and honestly, unless you're partially deaf, it's a completely unacceptable bitrate for music. Hell, I can tell the difference between high bitrate lossy formats and .wav/.flac or cda.
Oh nos, another argument about bitrate. huge quality loss at 128? Hardly. Quality loss yes, but its not enough to make anyone really notice it. Unacceptable? Only to the most stuck-up of audiophiles. 128 is MORE than acceptable for music, and when weighed against the file sizes of 320 cbr or ape, its mix of bitrate and size more than holds its own.
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Old 2004-10-20, 00:05   Link #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enron
Oh nos, another argument about bitrate. huge quality loss at 128? Hardly. Quality loss yes, but its not enough to make anyone really notice it. Unacceptable? Only to the most stuck-up of audiophiles. 128 is MORE than acceptable for music, and when weighed against the file sizes of 320 cbr or ape, its mix of bitrate and size more than holds its own.
I just told you, I notice it. Are you calling me a liar?

Stuck up audiophile? Yes I am, that's why all of the music on my computer comes from my own CDs.

Just to be clear, you're talking about 128 CBR MP3, correct?

If so, it's not anywhere near good enough for music. The mid cuts and compression in the highs really kills the sound. I'm not so hard up for HD space that I would consider crappier sound just to save a few MB.
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Old 2004-10-20, 02:09   Link #43
zalas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somedude
I just told you, I notice it. Are you calling me a liar?

Stuck up audiophile? Yes I am, that's why all of the music on my computer comes from my own CDs.

Just to be clear, you're talking about 128 CBR MP3, correct?

If so, it's not anywhere near good enough for music. The mid cuts and compression in the highs really kills the sound. I'm not so hard up for HD space that I would consider crappier sound just to save a few MB.
If you don't like the compression, why don't you just buy the R2 DVDs when it comes out? There's a good chance there will be a Linear PCM track on it. 128kbps sounds generally fine for speech. For music, the TV size songs generally don't sound that good either, since they've been dynamically compressed for TV broadcast. Get the CD single if you want better versions (and longer versions too).
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Old 2004-10-20, 02:31   Link #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zalas
If you don't like the compression, why don't you just buy the R2 DVDs when it comes out? There's a good chance there will be a Linear PCM track on it. 128kbps sounds generally fine for speech. For music, the TV size songs generally don't sound that good either, since they've been dynamically compressed for TV broadcast. Get the CD single if you want better versions (and longer versions too).
All irrelevant.

Re-read what was said. I am speaking of music from a CD source. This is all an aside to fansubs.

But getting back on track; yes, 128 sounds alright for speech, however, if your source is a higher bitrate, why not take advantage of that? Hell, mono sound is "fine for speech" as well, and it cuts the overhead for the sound in half, why don't more people do that? I guess the difference is, do you want good enough, or do you want better?
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Old 2004-10-20, 04:32   Link #45
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Somedude: some fansub audio tracks are as large as like 33mb ... you can pare off 10mb from that easily for video quality instead -- and nobody but stuckup audiophiles are really gonna notice :P
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Old 2004-10-20, 04:56   Link #46
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People other than stuck up audiophiles WILL notice when any of the music with any loudness (specific terms lacking: I do not know my music) like the ops sound like a high picthed scream coming out of their speakers.
I've been able to notice how bad Ops sounded for YEARS, way before I've been able to notice how crappy half my mp3s sound, heh.

And let's keep in mind that anime is NOT Just speech, but explosions, other music, gunshots, you name it.
And JediNight, I made the point earlier in the topic, that those extra 10 megs for keeping the audio PRISTINE isn't going to harm video THAT Much.

I have a headache anyway, I should probably wait for the drugs to take effect before rabling any more ^^
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Old 2004-10-20, 15:34   Link #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enron
Oh nos, another argument about bitrate. huge quality loss at 128? Hardly. Quality loss yes, but its not enough to make anyone really notice it. Unacceptable? Only to the most stuck-up of audiophiles. 128 is MORE than acceptable for music, and when weighed against the file sizes of 320 cbr or ape, its mix of bitrate and size more than holds its own.
Actually, I am somewhat stuck-up, audio-wise... you HT-in-a-box hillbilly.

I try to avoid any MP3 below 160 or 192 kbit. Yes, for music.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Somedude
You need better speakers/headphones then. There's a HUGE quality loss at 128, and honestly, unless you're partially deaf, it's a completely unacceptable bitrate for music.
I think I can say, without being arrogant, that I have better speakers than 90% of the people on suki. I run my soundcard out to my HT, and yes, with those I can hear almost any audio artifact. I never said 128 was acceptable for *music*. We're talking about anime here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SirCanealot
People other than stuck up audiophiles WILL notice when any of the music with any loudness (specific terms lacking: I do not know my music) like the ops sound like a high picthed scream coming out of their speakers.
So they'll notice. I hope they also notice that these fansubs aren't meant to be permantently archived in lieu of proper DVDs. Of course it's their choice if they want to keep them instead, but then they can just accept the lesser quality.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SirCanealot
And let's keep in mind that anime is NOT Just speech, but explosions, other music, gunshots, you name it.
True, but it's free entertainment, and yes, it's just anime. Certainly, helping 2-3 minutes of the show at the cost of the rest of it isn't a good trade-off in my book.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SirCanealot
And JediNight, I made the point earlier in the topic, that those extra 10 megs for keeping the audio PRISTINE isn't going to harm video THAT Much.
That's certainly a point where everyone's milage may vary. I prefer to help the video.

All this said, there ARE cases where you'd use > 128 kbit... I won't go into them, but yes, they do exist. Generally not on TV anime though.
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Old 2004-10-20, 16:43   Link #48
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So, you're saying you'd prefer impoving the video quality SLIGHTLY, and thus completely trashing audio quality?

Quote:
And let's keep in mind that anime is NOT Just speech, but explosions, other music, gunshots, you name it.
I thought I'd requote this, and re-emphasise it:
You know, I've watched a few series here and there which has had MORE than 2-3 minutes of music/explosions/lots of sound in it, you know.

And if you don't want fansubs to be a replacement for DVDs, then why is 128CBR audio the only disability you give your releases? I mean, it's a pretty gay one, as a region 1 DVD doesn't exactly mean perfect audio: let's keep in mind AC3 sucks a whole hell of a lot more than mp3.
I mean, why not add others, like 64kbs audio, 480x360 video, not using any AVISynth filters to help clean and compress the video.
Where does one stop...?
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Old 2004-10-20, 16:53   Link #49
N-Bomb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirCanealot
So, you're saying you'd prefer impoving the video quality SLIGHTLY, and thus completely trashing audio quality?
Since 128 isn't remotely near 'completely trashing', I'd have to disagree.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SirCanealot
And if you don't want fansubs to be a replacement for DVDs, then why is 128CBR audio the only disability you give your releases? I mean, it's a pretty gay one, as a region 1 DVD doesn't exactly mean perfect audio: let's keep in mind AC3 sucks a whole hell of a lot more than mp3.
I mean, why not add others, like 64kbs audio, 480x360 video, not using any AVISynth filters to help clean and compress the video.
Where does one stop...?
AC3 works fine in its uses.

One stops at 'good enough'... a point I've discussed in other threads. This fictional persuit of 'quality' is just so much chest-thumping, ego-stroking, e-penis-enlarging foolishness, in my opinion.
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Old 2004-10-20, 17:24   Link #50
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Come to my house, and listen to a "fast" or "loud" (I suck with musicy terms) Op, then make statements like that.

Also, AC3 does NOT work fine in its uses.
AC3 is CRAP, CRAP, CRAP. How is me paying $20 for over-compressed audio, and again pretty crappy sounding op songs "fine"?
Especially since most companies see the need to plug 2.0 at 196kbs. I mean, mp3 has problems at 196kbs; it's not like .ogg sounds perfect at 196kbs.

And, let's consider the "pursuit" of quality:
Leaving in the original audio: effort level of, say, a couple of dozen clicks (opening raw in VD, demuxing, remuxing audio in .avi)
Converting to 128kbs CBR: Effort level of INCREASE x X/N (doing the same as above, but with ADDITIONAL ENCODING STEPS).

And yes, I agree, it's so EGO inducing to try and get better at a hobby: I mean, I have a friend who plays Chess (I don't really, but Chess is a respected game, so I'll lie), and he was trying to learn some tactics and I was like "OMG, YOU JUST WANT TO INCREASE YOUR PENIS SIZE, DON'T YOU".
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Old 2004-10-20, 20:22   Link #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirCanealot
And yes, I agree, it's so EGO inducing to try and get better at a hobby: I mean, I have a friend who plays Chess (I don't really, but Chess is a respected game, so I'll lie), and he was trying to learn some tactics and I was like "OMG, YOU JUST WANT TO INCREASE YOUR PENIS SIZE, DON'T YOU".
Actually, a better analogy would be if your friend constantly plays at his best against some other people who clearly are not up to his level and who are simply trying to learn the game, thinking he is all 1337 by pwning them when there was no need to.
You don't get more skillful at audio encoding by encoding at a higher audio bitrate anyways, so your analogy doesn't even work.
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Old 2004-10-20, 20:36   Link #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirCanealot
Come to my house, and listen to a "fast" or "loud" (I suck with musicy terms) Op, then make statements like that.
I can hear fast/loud anime OPs just fine here... They're over in 1 and a half minutes, then it's on the audio that rarely needs the extra bitrate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SirCanealot
Also, AC3 does NOT work fine in its uses.
AC3 is CRAP, CRAP, CRAP. How is me paying $20 for over-compressed audio, and again pretty crappy sounding op songs "fine"?
Especially since most companies see the need to plug 2.0 at 196kbs. I mean, mp3 has problems at 196kbs; it's not like .ogg sounds perfect at 196kbs.
AC3 is only used in every DVD made. I guess if it's good enough for Hollywood, it's not good enough for you :P Let's also forget about the differences in both encoding schemes. You're arguing now that raws from winny are 'better quality' than DVDs? Oi.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SirCanealot
And, let's consider the "pursuit" of quality:
Leaving in the original audio: effort level of, say, a couple of dozen clicks (opening raw in VD, demuxing, remuxing audio in .avi)
Converting to 128kbs CBR: Effort level of INCREASE x X/N (doing the same as above, but with ADDITIONAL ENCODING STEPS).
If the raw isn't in 128 in the first place :P


Quote:
Originally Posted by SirCanealot
And yes, I agree, it's so EGO inducing to try and get better at a hobby: I mean, I have a friend who plays Chess (I don't really, but Chess is a respected game, so I'll lie), and he was trying to learn some tactics and I was like "OMG, YOU JUST WANT TO INCREASE YOUR PENIS SIZE, DON'T YOU".
It's certainly more than a hobby. And it doesn't take any 'skill' to encode an audio stream with a higher bitrate. Any idiot can do that. Any idiot can also make 233 MB encodes. Fansubbing is degenerating into showing-off and one-upmanship... thinking like this is certainly one cause.
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Last edited by N-Bomb; 2004-10-20 at 20:47.
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Old 2004-10-22, 09:57   Link #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirCanealot
Also, AC3 does NOT work fine in its uses.
AC3 is CRAP, CRAP, CRAP. How is me paying $20 for over-compressed audio, and again pretty crappy sounding op songs "fine"?
Especially since most companies see the need to plug 2.0 at 196kbs. I mean, mp3 has problems at 196kbs; it's not like .ogg sounds perfect at 196kbs.
LOL, you are the biggest idiot I have ever seen XD!!! 196 isn't a bitrate used (unless VBR and it just HAPPENS to accidentally end at that), I THINK you ment to say 192....most of your posts about "technical stuff" on this forums have been nothing but stuff to laugh at....AC3 uses a technique of compression sort of like WMV9 does with video, blends out details, so you REALLY can't tell the quality loss unless you hear the master copy (unless you get to 160kbps and below where it begins to have an "echo" sound in the quality loss, unlike MP3 which gives the audio a kind of "grain).
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Old 2004-10-22, 11:04   Link #54
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I'm an audiophile myself, and yes, I can hear the difference between quality of lossless (for ex. APE or FLAC) and MP3 at 320 kbit/s without headphones. Occasionally I notice huge drops of sound quality in fansubs. The last time it bothered me was when the audio was encoded at 112 kbit/s (also, the ED was truly great, so it bothered me a lot ). But when watching anime fansubs I focus on other stuff whereas listening to music I can only concentrate on that, so audiophilia and fansubbing... I really don't see the point.
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Old 2004-10-22, 11:20   Link #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NinjaServ
LOL, you are the biggest idiot I have ever seen XD!!! 196 isn't a bitrate used (unless VBR and it just HAPPENS to accidentally end at that), I THINK you ment to say 192....most of your posts about "technical stuff" on this forums have been nothing but stuff to laugh at....AC3 uses a technique of compression sort of like WMV9 does with video, blends out details, so you REALLY can't tell the quality loss unless you hear the master copy (unless you get to 160kbps and below where it begins to have an "echo" sound in the quality loss, unlike MP3 which gives the audio a kind of "grain).
Both AC3 and Mp3 kill too much "detail" for my liking - especialy 128CBR.

And, if AC3 is "blending out detail", why would I need to hear the master copy to be able to tell the difference? I can tell that a lot of WMV9 raws look oversmoothed without seeing the master copy.
In which case, yes I have heard the master copy of one thing - Hajime no Ippo's opening. My 320CBR rip of the op from the OST CD sounds masses better than the AC3 track on the DVD. The AC3 track doesn't sound bad, but it doesn't sound as good as I'd like considering there's a gig left free on the disk, and I paid 20 bucks for the disk.
And the "audio grain" (I only have a vague idea to what you could be talking about - please use the correct terminology if you want to complain to a dyslexic person for mixing up two commonly used numbers) is only very noticeable at low bitrates. What I find more annoying is the old clipping.
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Old 2004-10-22, 13:12   Link #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirCanealot
I can tell that a lot of WMV9 raws look oversmoothed without seeing the master copy.
You also have to consider most raws were captured from TV, not a DVD, so OBVIOUSLY some of the detail is gone from filters and other such things. Comparison encodes to XviD, there is VERY little differnce other (in ANIMATION that is, WMV9 looks REALLY bad on live action shows) than xvid makes HUGE blocks on dark blue and wmv9 can grain more around subs than the NEW xvid (which is not really a problem with raws). Unless when you encode you turn "Cartoon Mode" off the encoding style of XviD is EXACTLY the same except more blocks, so you really can't compliment one and bash the other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirCanealot
...AC3 track on the CD.
And what the hell would you be talking about?
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Old 2004-10-22, 17:15   Link #57
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I forgot to write "OST" for the first CD, and then called the DVD "CD", which is just an old habit.
I'll edit and correct to stamp out confusion.

Edit: I can bash WMV9 for it's 50% processor use (2.1Atholn) though :P
And I've also heard WMV9 has a buit in smoother which you can't turn off, which is why they look so oversmoothed - XVid doesn't have that, and it pisses me off (since sometimes it strangely enough DOESN'T activate, making you think the raw has more detail that it does being decoded normally; I have screen shots of this if you want to comment on this at all, it's really pissing me off).
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Old 2004-10-22, 19:35   Link #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirCanealot
My 320CBR rip of the op from the OST CD sounds masses better than the AC3 track on the DVD.
You do know that anime production companies generally don't put a song into a show verbatim right? The song has to go through a mixing setup, and it is likely that they will perform dynamic compression on it and/or some filtering.
But seriously man, you don't watch anime just to listen to the music; there's OST's for that reason. You might as well say "the anime companies aren't giving me my money's worth by putting anime on lossy MPEG2 and 16bit PCM, I want the freakin' digital masters and 96khz 24bit PCM darn it!!"
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Old 2004-10-22, 23:34   Link #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirCanealot
I forgot to write "OST" for the first CD, and then called the DVD "CD", which is just an old habit.
I'll edit and correct to stamp out confusion.

Edit: I can bash WMV9 for it's 50% processor use (2.1Atholn) though :P
And I've also heard WMV9 has a buit in smoother which you can't turn off, which is why they look so oversmoothed - XVid doesn't have that, and it pisses me off (since sometimes it strangely enough DOESN'T activate, making you think the raw has more detail that it does being decoded normally; I have screen shots of this if you want to comment on this at all, it's really pissing me off).
Not really considered a "built in smoother", it's basically just paritally the type of compression it does. To be honest tho, if you turn the Cartoon Mode off in XviD the encodes loose worse than previous versions of XviD, so I don't really see where the new XviD is all that great OTHER than the smoothing (cartoon) mode...

You CAN make WMV9 blend out "less" by turing one of the settings up to "Better Quality" but then it takes friggin 6 hours to encode WITHOUT using filters...that IS a downside.
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Old 2004-10-23, 09:14   Link #60
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No, it IS a built in smoother in the decoder.
Check the links to the pics I just sent you.
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