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View Poll Results: What type of softsubs would you like to download?
Matroska (MKV) with SRT subs 20 18.87%
Matroska (MKV) with SSA subs (colors and fonts, but heavier on CPU) 61 57.55%
Ogg Media (OGM) with SRT subs 21 19.81%
Apple QuickTime (MOV) with Flash subs 4 3.77%
Voters: 106. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2004-11-30, 18:18   Link #61
Lina Inverse
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Ogg has always worked fine for me, so I'm voting for that
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Old 2004-12-14, 13:32   Link #62
Sergejack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooliganj
MKV has no support on Windows Media Player, even from its own developers.
The MKV splitter is a directshow codec so spyWare Media Pplayer will read mkv (it just don't show .mkv file as recognized video format when opening a video; so just show *.* and pick your mkv file in the finally complete list)
BTW : WMP don't recognize .rm as video files neither, but since there is a working directshow filter (Real Alternative, find it on the internet) for it, you can read those.

*.* is the answer (thx M$ for your preventive blinding behaviour)


---ANYWAY---

MKV + ASS is the best choice.

ASS is amzingly like SSA but it does what sometime you complain SSA don't.
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Old 2004-12-14, 13:49   Link #63
hooliganj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergejack
The MKV splitter is a directshow codec so spyWare Media Pplayer will read mkv (it just don't show .mkv file as recognized video format when opening a video; so just show *.* and pick your mkv file in the finally complete list)
BTW : WMP don't recognize .rm as video files neither, but since there is a working directshow filter (Real Alternative, find it on the internet) for it, you can read those.

*.* is the answer (thx M$ for your preventive blinding behaviour)


---ANYWAY---

MKV + ASS is the best choice.

ASS is amzingly like SSA but it does what sometime you complain SSA don't.
Maybe that works on your machine, but under Windows XP, you can't substitute the '*.*' for the file type. I did try dragging and dropping, using the 'open with' command, and even specifying a new file association through the explorer options. That last option finally got WMP to open the file, but it still wouldn't play.

What did finally get it working was Lazy Man's MKV pack. Now that I can play the things, I agree that it's an excellent setup, but there's something to be said for using a standardized codec.
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Old 2004-12-14, 13:59   Link #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooliganj
Maybe that works on your machine, but under Windows XP, you can't substitute the '*.*' for the file type.
I can. (XP)
I just write *.* and hit enter.
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Old 2004-12-14, 17:36   Link #65
hooliganj
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I just tried it out, and it appears that WMP10 has added the 'any file' option to the list anyway, so it you don't even have to type anything. Still, without the correct splitter installed, WMP won't even look at the file, and the packs posted on the official MKV page made WMP crash.

I don't use the various players (Media Classic, BPlayer, VideoLan, etc.) as a matter of course. If a codec feels they are too important to support standards and make themselves compatible with the player use by the majority of the population, then they have already excluded lots of potential users, and I just have to count myself among them.

As it is, I got it to work. WMP10 now recognizes MKV as a valid media format, and even has it as an option on the pull down file type list. But I had to use a 3rd party install to get that to happen, and that shouldn't be necessary. The people pushing the codec should have the right files on their page, and provide the neccessary support.
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Old 2004-12-14, 22:38   Link #66
Shii
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooliganj
I just tried it out, and it appears that WMP10 has added the 'any file' option to the list anyway, so it you don't even have to type anything. Still, without the correct splitter installed, WMP won't even look at the file, and the packs posted on the official MKV page made WMP crash.
I don't really care about gaining the support of people who view their anime with the following players

- Vivo Player for Windows 95
- RealMedia Player 2.0
- Sonique MIDI Player for Mac OS 7
- Windows Media Player

because they are all about the same in terms of support for modern video codecs and containers.

Windows Media Player is what I would call a "starting point". Microsoft ships it with Windows for people who don't know what "MPEG" means so they can stick the DVD in their drive and watch Waterboy without having to "download" software or complicated things like that. If you actually know what you're doing, and are downloading anime with high compression and softsubs, you should know better than to use the default media player that comes with the computer. Ditto with Internet Explorer.

Last edited by Shii; 2004-12-14 at 22:49.
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Old 2004-12-15, 02:24   Link #67
hooliganj
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That's your choice. At least you are aware that a lot of people can't/won't watch your subs due to the format.

Believe it or not, now that MKVs are playing, the only common format I can't get to play in WMP is RM, mostly because I've never wanted or needed to. Even Quicktime will run, although not very smoothly. Given what a challenge some of those were to bring in, I'd call MPClassic and its like the 'lazy' version of the players, and my WMP is the 'tricked-out' edition. 'Cuz I can.
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Old 2004-12-15, 02:26   Link #68
Tofusensei
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Until there is a filter for *nix platforms that will properly decode SSA and ASS scripts, softsubs are a waste IMO. I'd be using them for many of my subs otherwise. :/

-Tofu
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Old 2004-12-18, 02:14   Link #69
CompShrink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei
Until there is a filter for *nix platforms that will properly decode SSA and ASS scripts, softsubs are a waste IMO. I'd be using them for many of my subs otherwise. :/

-Tofu
Yep... that's definately a disapointment about switching to linux...
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Old 2004-12-18, 14:40   Link #70
ChibiDusk
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I just don't understand why people don't use MKV... I mean, really.
You get better the same video quality as in an avi file, and even better sound. You get editable subtitles... don't like the font? Change it... don't like the color? Change it... Need them bigger/smaller? Do as you wish. For christ sakes, to me it's more then triple times better... need RAW video for something (ie - music video?), turn the subs off and poof, you have raw, no need to download doubles now.

The only problem I can see is, idiots don't know how to play them.
it's simple, download VLc, poof, they play like magic.
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Old 2004-12-18, 15:35   Link #71
exedore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChibiDusk
I just don't understand why people don't use MKV... I mean, really.
I've got a standalone MP4 player and it won't play them. Considering that I prefer watching stuff on my TV to the computer, that's a pretty good reason for me NOT to use MKV on my own encodes. And before anybody starts the "well how many people have those?" arguments, let me remind you that they sell these things at Target, Wal-Mart, major electronics stores in the US *and* EU, etc.

Quote:
You get better the same video quality as in an avi file, and even better sound. You get editable subtitles... don't like the font? Change it... don't like the color? Change it... Need them bigger/smaller? Do as you wish. For christ sakes, to me it's more then triple times better... need RAW video for something (ie - music video?), turn the subs off and poof, you have raw, no need to download doubles now.
See, that starts getting into iffy territory - ie "If I've got the clean video, why do I want/need to buy the DVD?". Fansubs are meant to be thrown away at some point, and having hardcoded subs does appear to be a big incentive for people to upgrade to legit media.

Also, using raw downloads for AMV's is a bad idea - anybody with functioning eyes (or corrective lenses) can see a difference in the encode.

Quote:
The only problem I can see is, idiots don't know how to play them.
MKV with softsubs is processor intensive. My old computer (Dual P3@450, 650MB RAM, Win2K) had a hell of a time playing MKV, and would usually sputter on them more than a couple times per episode. And yes, I knew how to play them.
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Old 2004-12-19, 00:09   Link #72
hooliganj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChibiDusk
The only problem I can see is, idiots don't know how to play them.
it's simple, download VLc, poof, they play like magic.
Except VLC ignores the editing and spacing controls set by the codec, substituting its own defaults, and often screws up punctuation and special characters as well. That seems to defeat the purpose of having editable subs.

Then there's the inefficiency of having to download a whole other piece of software just to play these few files, which provide a relatively small benefit.
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Old 2004-12-19, 09:25   Link #73
SirCanealot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exedore
I've got a standalone MP4 player and it won't play them. Considering that I prefer watching stuff on my TV to the computer, that's a pretty good reason for me NOT to use MKV on my own encodes.
But isn't that your fault for buying a stand alone DVD player to play mpeg4?
If people are silly enough to buy a player with a "gimmick" like that, then they shouldn't expect full functionality. Nor should they ask people to reduce the quality of stuff they watch because they bought into a commercial gimmick.
If people were smart enough to use TV-Outs or X-Boxs, we wouldn't have half as much trouble.

Quote:
See, that starts getting into iffy territory - ie "If I've got the clean video, why do I want/need to buy the DVD?". Fansubs are meant to be thrown away at some point, and having hardcoded subs does appear to be a big incentive for people to upgrade to legit media.
And encoding all fansubs to 320x240 would be an even bigger incentive. Where do you want to stop?

Quote:
MKV with softsubs is processor intensive. My old computer (Dual P3@450, 650MB RAM, Win2K) had a hell of a time playing MKV, and would usually sputter on them more than a couple times per episode. And yes, I knew how to play them.
ANYTHING will be processor intensive on a 450mhz machine. Infact, you're not even going to play a 640x WMV9 encode on that. I don't see how one can complain at something when one doesn't even sufficient hardware :/

Quote:
Then there's the inefficiency of having to download a whole other piece of software just to play these few files, which provide a relatively small benefit.
Poor baby! I remember the last time a game or piece of software asked me to upgrade another piece of software on my machine. I was like "WTF? *snaps disk*".
I mean, going to a minute's effort for something like that? Nah. Better to burn it on a disk... then SNAP THE DISK!!!!
And ogg audio isn't a "small benefit"
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Old 2004-12-19, 10:17   Link #74
exedore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirCanealot
If people are silly enough to buy a player with a "gimmick" like that, then they shouldn't expect full functionality. Nor should they ask people to reduce the quality of stuff they watch because they bought into a commercial gimmick.
If people were smart enough to use TV-Outs or X-Boxs, we wouldn't have half as much trouble.
Have you done any research on the HD and Blu-Ray specs? They're both going to have MPEG-4 support by default. Not exactly a "gimmick" as you put it. As for TV-Out or an X-Box, I don't have the former in my notebook, and the latter would have cost three times as much as well as dealing with linux or sacrificing proper DVD support if I were to use XBMC. Screw that!
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Old 2004-12-19, 17:38   Link #75
alexnoe
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Quote:
Both OGM and MKV are way better than AVI
MUHAHAHAHHA OGM doesn't even support subtitles (make a file with french subs, go to a russian windows installation, and you'll see that OGM does not even support subtitles), which AVI does perfectly.

So why is OGM even mentioned in a thread like this?
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Old 2004-12-19, 18:42   Link #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexnoe
MUHAHAHAHHA OGM doesn't even support subtitles (make a file with french subs, go to a russian windows installation, and you'll see that OGM does not even support subtitles), which AVI does perfectly.

So why is OGM even mentioned in a thread like this?
In a mkv file you can set the charset to be used for each sub.

CP1551 for Russian.
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Old 2004-12-20, 01:54   Link #77
alexnoe
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Totally wrong. MKV (as well as AVI) store subtitles in Unicode (UTF-8) only. The only reason to "set" a character set is when people use broken input files (i.e. input subtitle files which use some kind of ancient coding instead of UTF-8)

This means, in an AVI and MKV file, you could even have french, russian and japanese in the *same* subtitle stream. Totally impossible in OGM.

Last edited by alexnoe; 2004-12-20 at 03:24.
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Old 2004-12-20, 08:50   Link #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexnoe
Totally wrong. MKV (as well as AVI) store subtitles in Unicode (UTF-8) only. The only reason to "set" a character set is when people use broken input files (i.e. input subtitle files which use some kind of ancient coding instead of UTF-8)

This means, in an AVI and MKV file, you could even have french, russian and japanese in the *same* subtitle stream. Totally impossible in OGM.
Do uou have a sample of such an MKV with use of different lanaguage in one stream ?
Just an "Haļ あい" will do.
I didn't manage to do it, but I sur would like to.

Next, tell me how "magical" mkv figures out the UTF-8 unicode of a character when the source is on 8bits char, since I'm so totally wrong.
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Old 2004-12-20, 09:16   Link #79
alexnoe
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Next, tell me how "magical" mkv figures out the UTF-8 unicode of a character when the source is on 8bits char, since I'm so totally wrong.
First, use a real operating system like Windows 2k or XP (NOT Win 9x/ME), type a simple SRT text file in Notepad, type whatever you want in Japanese, Russian and French, select UTF-8 output, and save it.

Second, Windows is not as retarded as some other operating systems. Converting 8bit sourses to UTF-8 needs exactly 2 calls of Windows API functions (MultiByteToWideChar and WideCharToMultiByte for ASCII -> UTF16 -> UTF8). I don't know how retarded e.g. Linux really is, but I do know that I don't care how it is done there...but it is possible. It must be, because MKV only allows UTF-8 encoding (which means, btw, that klingon in real klingon letters is impossible, as those are not yet included in UTF-8)

Last edited by alexnoe; 2004-12-20 at 09:27.
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Old 2004-12-20, 10:42   Link #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexnoe
First, use a real operating system like Windows 2k or XP (NOT Win 9x/ME),
I use XP.
Real, hu ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexnoe
type a simple SRT text file in Notepad, type whatever you want in Japanese, Russian and French, select UTF-8 output, and save it.
Wooh! Notepad is a reeeeal subtitle suitable tool! Wath about Hex Editor next time, wise guy ?


But for now, I'll just keep gathering 8bit encoded SRT and telling MKV wich charset to use.
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