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Old 2006-08-06, 17:19   Link #241
Silent Soldier
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Yeah short of walking on water I don't know what more you want him to do. You have to look back then and see for yourself then what you think is good, but if some of the things mentioned here didn't convince you even a little I don't know what will.
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Old 2006-08-06, 17:43   Link #242
grandmaster192
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I see.......Athrun is good, but not elite (Kira Rau Shinn). Thats what I'm not seeing. How is he as good as Kira, Shinn, Rau....sure, He's a good pilot but not super elite. I'm just not seeing him that way. Like I said, Yzak, Dearka, Rey, ect...those guys are all good pilots. Athrun is in that group.
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Old 2006-08-06, 17:52   Link #243
Skyfall
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Shinn > Athrun ? which time of Shinn getting pwned against Athrun makes you think that ?

When a heavily injured Athrun bested Shinn in ORB or when Athrun without SEED destroyed Shinns ASS sword with Shinn in SEED ?. Or was it when Shinn got owned in 5 secs tops ? Or when Shinn was drooling ower Athruns performance in a ZAKU ?

Oh, i know - it was when Shinn beat Athrun in a GOUF when he himself used Destiny, yea...that must be it.

Shinn is no where near the top pilots. Could have been, wasnt. You can whine about him getting nerfed post ep 35 (which would be true) but point still stands - hes lightyears away from beating Athrun in a fair fight.
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Old 2006-08-06, 18:01   Link #244
Silent Soldier
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Skyfall is 100% correct I think he just named some of Athrun's best moments to you. Athrun pwned Shinn in every engagement but the Gouf and he wasn't even in seed mode for some of them what does that say. I do think that Kira is probably the best in CE but Athrun is second he is lightyears better than Dearka Yzak and even Rau all of whom I really like but they just don't compare. Athrun has proved himself a capable and competent fighter on many occasions and has the skill to back it up.
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Old 2006-08-06, 18:05   Link #245
grandmaster192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
Shinn > Athrun ? which time of Shinn getting pwned against Athrun makes you think that ?

When a heavily injured Athrun bested Shinn in ORB or when Athrun without SEED destroyed Shinns ASS sword with Shinn in SEED ?. Or was it when Shinn got owned in 5 secs tops ? Or when Shinn was drooling ower Athruns performance in a ZAKU ?

Oh, i know - it was when Shinn beat Athrun in a GOUF when he himself used Destiny, yea...that must be it.

Shinn is no where near the top pilots. Could have been, wasnt. You can whine about him getting nerfed post ep 35 (which would be true) but point still stands - hes lightyears away from beating Athrun in a fair fight.
Look at Athruns a gundam. A grunt could pilot it and beat Shinn. It's that fuckin powerful. Of course Athrun is gonna win. All he does is sit in a super god gundam that could crush anything no matter who the pilot is. Put Cagali in the IJ and it would beat Shinn in the Destiny. The gap between the 2 units is so big Shinn never had a chance. In a fair fight Shinn would destroy Athrun.
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Old 2006-08-06, 18:11   Link #246
Silent Soldier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grandmaster192
Look at Athruns a gundam. A grunt could pilot it and beat Shinn. It's that fuckin powerful. Of course Athrun is gonna win. All he does is sit in a super god gundam that could crush anything no matter who the pilot is. Put Cagali in the IJ and it would beat Shinn in the Destiny. The gap between the 2 units is so big Shinn never had a chance. In a fair fight Shinn would destroy Athrun.
How could you say that. The IJ is powerful yes but not so much more powerful Justice is good and the destiny is no pushover suit either. Cagalli I am sorry she is an okay pilot but could never pilot IJ enough to destroy Shinn in a fight it takes more than just sitting in the gundam and pushing a button you need skill. Athrun and Shinn both in identical suits whatever they are Athrun would win Shinn is a very good pilot but Athrun could beat him in a even playing field. AThrun has more experience and does not just rely on IJ power to win his fight's he can do well in an ordinary suit we don't know if the same can be said for Shinn.
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Old 2006-08-06, 18:17   Link #247
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Look at Athruns a gundam. A grunt could pilot it and beat Shinn. It's that fuckin powerful. Of course Athrun is gonna win. All he does is sit in a super god gundam that could crush anything no matter who the pilot is. Put Cagali in the IJ and it would beat Shinn in the Destiny. The gap between the 2 units is so big Shinn never had a chance. In a fair fight Shinn would destroy Athrun.
Boy you're sure putting alot of faith in a Gundam you saw for a grand-total of less than 5 mins who didn't even use all his specs weaponry...Next you'll be saying Baba in IJ could beat DESTINY...I think your fan-juices are clouding your thoughts on this one...But IJ did beat DESTINY and that's what it is, however even in that one-sided affair IJ wasn't even as close to dominant as your making it out....//hackatsuki is a bigger cheat than IJ...
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Old 2006-08-06, 18:24   Link #248
Skyfall
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Ok, next

battle of ORB

Athrun, heavily injured (Read - walks around holding on to Meyrin) Cuts off Destinys arm, usining only his beam saber , doesnt matter what other things IJ has, he didnt use any. Both pilots in SEED


Battle of Messiah

Athrun without SEED , Shinn with SEED. Destroys Shinns ASS sword using only his beam saber

Shinn in SEED, Athrun in SEED, using his leg blades - Destiny is turned in to a pile of rubble in 5 secs tops

Only once Athrun used the things that specificly IJ has, and Destiny was gone in an instant. Other two times Athrun beats Shinn using stuff that every suit has - beam saber.
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Old 2006-08-06, 18:30   Link #249
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grandmaster192
Look at Athruns a gundam. A grunt could pilot it and beat Shinn. It's that fuckin powerful. Of course Athrun is gonna win. All he does is sit in a super god gundam that could crush anything no matter who the pilot is. Put Cagali in the IJ and it would beat Shinn in the Destiny. The gap between the 2 units is so big Shinn never had a chance. In a fair fight Shinn would destroy Athrun.
So, according to the official word, Shinn is the third best pilot, preceded by Athrun and Kira. Not that it matters to fans.

Shinn isn't a bad pilot. He admired Athrun's skills, but he clearly improved his own throughout the series and became one of the best. The fact that he was defeated was mainly due to his lack of organization in his thoughts. He was obviously confused when he confronted Athrun for the last time. Most defeats in Gundam SEED occurs when one's judgement is clouded by whatever reason. That is exactly what happened to Shinn, thus leading to his inevitable defeat.

Its hard to define a 'fair fight' in GS/GSD... we were never given one (Unless you play Federation vs. ZAFT).

- Tak (And to be honest, Athrun's comeback came too late, but at least he had one by the end)

Last edited by Tak; 2006-08-06 at 18:49.
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Old 2006-08-06, 18:59   Link #250
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
Ok, next

battle of ORB

Athrun, heavily injured (Read - walks around holding on to Meyrin) Cuts off Destinys arm, usining only his beam saber , doesnt matter what other things IJ has, he didnt use any. Both pilots in SEED


Battle of Messiah

Athrun without SEED , Shinn with SEED. Destroys Shinns ASS sword using only his beam saber

Shinn in SEED, Athrun in SEED, using his leg blades - Destiny is turned in to a pile of rubble in 5 secs tops

Only once Athrun used the things that specificly IJ has, and Destiny was gone in an instant. Other two times Athrun beats Shinn using stuff that every suit has - beam saber.
LMAO, you've got to be the worst Shinn-fan I've ever known...I think I might have to bring this to the boards attention x)...If you use the nerfed data as the data for your argument it's pretty pointless to those who believe in the nerf..."ZOMG a totally unbelievable bloody milkshake half-dead Athrun beats Shinn therefor Shinn sucks...Oh f*ck studying my opponent like I did before I'll just use 1 of 3 pre-drawn DESTINY moves to get pwnt in the biggest fight of my life and when I go SEED in the most important fight of my life it'll just make my boosters boost a little bit ...Oh $hit you know what else I can do, I can let Athrun destroy my sword in the 100% exact same way as he did it the first time..."

Yeah that was Shinn's and DESTINY's plan ...Athrun is the better pilot as the victor gets the spoils, but lets stop boiling B$ in a pot and serving it as chili...
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Old 2006-08-06, 23:23   Link #251
Demongod86
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Shinn got nerfed yes, but also keep in mind that if we look at all of his battles post OP, his battle against freedom was BY FAR his best, and Kira was nerfed to hell in that. Analyzing:

Ep 12: Grunt. A powerful grunt, but it's a damn grunt, one way or another. As we see later on, these things are grunts. That said, Shinn did show he doesn't give up easily.
Ep 17: Shinn trashes a million grunts.
Desert ep: Shinn's definitely good here. Second best battle aside from Freedom.
Ep 23: Shinn is officially labelled "Kira's bitch" in this episode.
Ep 28: Shinn dodges one shot from Kira then goes back to destroying grunts and ships.
Ep 32: Shinn = toast had it not been for Kira bailing his ass out at the last second, although Kira put his ass in trouble to begin with.
Ep 34: Okay, fine, Shinn and Rey pulled out all the stops while Kira was having a severe case of nooberculosis. Moving on...
Ep 37: More grunt trashing. Destroys are now offically labelled as supersized grunts, courtesy of a WTFOMNIPWNing Destiny gundam. Keep in mind he fought these destroys with the same tactics he tried fighting Athrun and Kira with.
Ep 41: Shinn > Cagalli, it's official. Even angry rampaging Shinn.
Ep 42: Athrun and Kira are NOT grunts. Grunt pwning skills don't work on them! Shinn=outclassed by Athrun and Kira.
Ep 44 was it: More grunts cosplaying as destroys.
Final battle: Notice a pattern here? Shinn once again thinks RAAAAAAAARGH CHOP CHOP will work. This is Shinn's DEFAULT pattern of attack unless planned for otherwise. The only times he planned otherwise, he succeeded. Any other times, RAAAARGH CHOP CHOP works, UNLESS vs. Kira and Athrun.
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Old 2006-08-07, 08:48   Link #252
Skyfall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
LMAO, you've got to be the worst Shinn-fan I've ever known...I think I might have to bring this to the boards attention x)...If you use the nerfed data as the data for your argument it's pretty pointless to those who believe in the nerf..."ZOMG a totally unbelievable bloody milkshake half-dead Athrun beats Shinn therefor Shinn sucks...Oh f*ck studying my opponent like I did before I'll just use 1 of 3 pre-drawn DESTINY moves to get pwnt in the biggest fight of my life and when I go SEED in the most important fight of my life it'll just make my boosters boost a little bit ...Oh $hit you know what else I can do, I can let Athrun destroy my sword in the 100% exact same way as he did it the first time..."

Yeah that was Shinn's and DESTINY's plan ...Athrun is the better pilot as the victor gets the spoils, but lets stop boiling B$ in a pot and serving it as chili...

Well, im also an Athrun fan

And i know Shinn got nerfed BADLY after downing Freedom, but there is not much i can do about it, which is sad, because i wanted to see a kick-ass last battle between Athrun and Shinn, where both would get badly damaged (see Rau vs Kira), and i believe that the Shinn we saw at ep 35 just might do that, or at least come close to that. I know Rey helped him to think of a way to beat Freedom, so he might also have noticed that Shinn cant handle Justice and would help him... but i dont know - Athrun doesnt have the weaknes Kira has that Shinn exploited.

Shinn was creative at start, heck, the best move he pulled was throw his shield at Freedom and shoot at it, making the beam hit Freedom( I was all like omg that was a Bada$$ move). Shinn at this state could have given us a good fight. But after this he got nerfed to RAWR CHOP CHOP, and sadly that does not stand anywhere near to beating Athrun, but that is what became of Shinn... so thats what we see. (Blame Fukuda) Im not saying im statisfied by his skill development in any way, but as much as i would like to be blind to this, i cant. The nerfed Shinn does not stand a chance against Athrun. And sadly, this nerfed version of Shinn is the one that we see in the end of the series.
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Old 2006-08-07, 10:47   Link #253
Eidolon Sniper
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How true. Shinn deserves more loving.

Even if I'm an Athrun fan, he does have a certain weakness at one point in time. Too bad he decided to rejoin the forces of the Jedi Knights.
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Old 2006-08-07, 11:21   Link #254
dom33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86
Shinn got nerfed yes, but also keep in mind that if we look at all of his battles post OP, his battle against freedom was BY FAR his best, and Kira was nerfed to hell in that. Analyzing:

Ep 12: Grunt. A powerful grunt, but it's a damn grunt, one way or another. As we see later on, these things are grunts. That said, Shinn did show he doesn't give up easily.
Ep 17: Shinn trashes a million grunts.
Desert ep: Shinn's definitely good here. Second best battle aside from Freedom.
Ep 23: Shinn is officially labelled "Kira's bitch" in this episode.
Ep 28: Shinn dodges one shot from Kira then goes back to destroying grunts and ships.
Ep 32: Shinn = toast had it not been for Kira bailing his ass out at the last second, although Kira put his ass in trouble to begin with.
Ep 34: Okay, fine, Shinn and Rey pulled out all the stops while Kira was having a severe case of nooberculosis. Moving on...
Ep 37: More grunt trashing. Destroys are now offically labelled as supersized grunts, courtesy of a WTFOMNIPWNing Destiny gundam. Keep in mind he fought these destroys with the same tactics he tried fighting Athrun and Kira with.
Ep 41: Shinn > Cagalli, it's official. Even angry rampaging Shinn.
Ep 42: Athrun and Kira are NOT grunts. Grunt pwning skills don't work on them! Shinn=outclassed by Athrun and Kira.
Ep 44 was it: More grunts cosplaying as destroys.
Final battle: Notice a pattern here? Shinn once again thinks RAAAAAAAARGH CHOP CHOP will work. This is Shinn's DEFAULT pattern of attack unless planned for otherwise. The only times he planned otherwise, he succeeded. Any other times, RAAAARGH CHOP CHOP works, UNLESS vs. Kira and Athrun.

ep23 plot devices
32: lets see it's kira's fault stellar was firing the lasers!
42 and afterwards plot devices and reused scenes take over.
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Old 2006-10-20, 10:28   Link #255
Sleep|My|Valentine
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miss noin, well call me a sicko but its hard to find a girl like that who wouldnt stand on your way but stills loves you if you are one sick war junky who wants to destroy where you live and yet you still love him,

i think she could be a saint, zechs is so lucky though
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Old 2006-10-20, 12:27   Link #256
anselfir
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Shinn got nerfed for a reason, also, what is shinn? Is not shinn the sum of his actions in a canon series? Maybe he became worse, as in he BECAME worse for real because he was dumb and immature or whatever. He got nerfed, and he stays nerfed, until he gets unnerfed. The unnerfed shinn does not exist in the series, thus it is meaningless to bring him into the discussion without qualifying that the unnerfed shinn exists only in alternative universes.
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Old 2006-10-21, 15:33   Link #257
JediNight
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These types of threads tend to get into circular arguments, but I'll bite a little bit. GSD is kinda the worst Gundam series to look to for character comparisons, simply because they mishandle them SO badly throughout.

Most of the characters in GSD have no character development. Kira and Lacus are stagnant the entire series, Athrun and Cagalli have these huge emo regressions that they sit in the entire series, Shinn stays emo-tool straight thru the end, etc.

Shinn never was a great pilot. He DID have some innate talent sure, but his immaturity and lack of thinking in most cases completely crippled his potential. Shinn is supposed to be a Neo-Kamille, but he falls far short of Kamille because he's never able to rise above his emo immaturity. He had none of the character development that Kamille showed in Zeta ... and in fact Kamille was mostly above his emo immaturity by around ep20-25.

He had an overpowered suit vs his general opponents throughout the series, but none of the other Minerva pilots were really allowed to shine. Can't do much when you are ordered to deck duty like Lunamaria and Rey were most of the time. Lunamaria was also typecast into the Japanese female stereotype -- despite being an Elite she somehow was tremendously inferior supposedly to the others.

Shinn basically gets slapped around the entire time in a real battle except for the completely contrived battle where Kira loses, and you can bet that only happens so they could introduce a new Freedom model. (Not to mention it was Rey that came up with the entire attack plan)

Inexplicably Athrun is never really allowed to shine for almost the entirety of GSD. They put him in that uncertainty funk that basically doesn't clear up until the very end, and even after getting the Infinite Justice -- a suit tailor made for how you have to take down Gundams in CE -- he doesn't even use half its weaponry or strengths until the last moment. What I mean is that you basically will never hit a Gundam with rifle fire ... the Gundams are always taken down by melee hits ... Athrun has a suit thats a giant melee weapon, and he spends most of his time firing the rifle or maybe tossing a few of the boomerangs. The shin blades don't even get used until the last episode...
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Old 2006-10-21, 16:55   Link #258
Tak
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While I have my 'favorite' characters, I do not believe the existence of 'best' characters.

All it comes down is to ask the same old question again: "Who is your favorite character?" After all, none of us can ever agree to a standard of definition for a 'best character'.

Take Kira for example. Fine mobile suit pilot, main protagnist of the show, gets a beauty queen as wife, all fine and dandy... but guess what? Horrible shot, can't use a gun accurately even if his life depends on it (instead, he throws 'em), not to mention the fact that he is a hideous crier (oh the discord, the pain!).

Of course, others, like Athrun and Yzak, are better shooters than Kira. Then again, both are considered inferior MS pilots if compared to Kira.

But being superior in certain aspects while inferior in others are no grounds for determining 'best character' status. Our standards are simply different. These characters exist to support one another, not neccessairly to compete against each other.

- Tak
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Old 2006-10-21, 23:33   Link #259
M_Flores
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IMO, the 'best' characters are always the ones that captures most of the fanbase and makes the most model kit sales out of his/her designated Gundam.
*nudge nudge*
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Old 2006-10-22, 03:54   Link #260
Red-Razor
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(gundam wing)
duo
(hero sucks just like treize)

Gundam seed
kira-athran

(also here flay sucks)
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