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Old 2004-04-19, 00:16   Link #101
Visions of time
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No, what Kakashi taught Sasuke was the Chidori, and encoraged sasuke to concentrate on duplicating Lee's movements so eh would have enough speed to make the Chidori worthwhile. Kakashi did NOT teach sasuke how to do Lotus(opening the gates)
For all we know Kakashi does not know how to perform the Lotus techniques. Gai said himself that the Lotus is not something you can do by simply copying it with your sharingan.
What Sasuke copyed form Lee was his movements, his speed, not his lotus.

Also I think that some people are forgetting that the kaiten takes chakra to perform so Neji may not be able to perform it whenever he wants trhoughout the entire fight. Also we know that once the enemy gets close enough, the kaiten becomes useless, such as
Spoiler:
as well as when Naruto dug through teh ground to get an attack in on him. Aside form these, Neji still ahs the advantage,since Sasuke would be hard pressed to damage neji using his long range attacks. A flurry of shuriken would be utterly useless, His fire type ninjutsu might not be able to pierce the kaiten. The only real way I can see Sasuke winning this si if he's able to move in and hit Neji and get out before Neji has a channce to react. Sure Neji's Byakugan can see 260 degrees around him, but it dousn't read movements. Just liek teh sharingan though, it dousn't matter if you can see an attack if you aren't fast enough to evade or counter it.

As for Neji's ability to react to speed, take a look at when naruto burst from teh ground to hit neji, how fast was Naruto moving? COuldnt neji have simply stepped backward in order to evade it?

otherwise if Sasuke cannot move fast enough to get a hit on neji before he is able to initiate his kaiten, like he was able to do agianst gaara and his sand shield, Sasuke will be hard pressed to win this battle. Without his speed, sasuke would not be able to defeat Neji. I am not taking the curse seal into account on the assumption that sasuke will be fighting without relying on the curse seal. Although if he got hit with the Hakke, he would need to rely on the curse seal to use his chakra (Since it will pull chakra out of him regardless)

Either way, this is most likely Neji's fight to lose.
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Old 2004-04-19, 03:03   Link #102
raikage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dranz
Not really. It only points us int he direction, but c'mon, how many reactions has Neji had during that time? Only one, where Neji's face is dead serious. Just because he doesn't have a reaction, that doesn't mean anything.

The deciding factors are Sasuke's speed and his moves. We're uncertain whether Neji can match Sasuke's speed but supposing he can't, and Neji using the Kaiten. How many more times can he do that? And unlike Naruto, Sasuke isn't quick to charge into an unknown situation. He ha sa smart mind, he'd fall back and regroup.

I don't know about Neji, but he doesn't seem to be all THAT great with strategy. Sasuke seems to have a good natural sense of what to do and create traps.
How many times can Neji use the Kaiten? In the Naruto fight, 3 times. Until the 3rd time, it didn't leave him winded at all.
Spoiler:
I think he has a fairly large chakra reserve.

Visions of time, Neji may have been hit by Naruto's one punch, but don't forget that prior to that, he had been able to see and react to Naruto moving at semi-Kyuubi-amplified speed. And, it's quite possible to get a hit in on someone who has completely and totally dropped their guard.

Which leads to something else - Neji won't always USE the Kaiten. During the Naruto fight, he deflected kunai and shuriken by using his own.
Spoiler:
He doesn't recklessly go spinning around the battlefield, twirling, always twirling towards victory. He may simply be able to dodge some of Sasuke's lower-level fireballs.

I think the fight would basically consist of Sasuke trying to keep his distance with Neji pursuing. Kawarimi would almost certainly be ineffective against the Byakugan; kunais and shuriken would be almost certainly useless, and trying to match Neji in hand-to-hand would be pretty dumb. That leaves Sasuke with his jutsu, which I personally believe has a very low chance of actually connecting (dodged/Kaiten-ed away) which makes it a battle of who has more stamina.

Spoiler:
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Old 2004-04-19, 03:52   Link #103
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Spoiler:
Do you even know how dumb that sounds? Hiashi has mastered Byakugan, so did Neji i think. But as said before Sharingan owns Byakugan.We don't actually now %50 of what SHaringan is capable of maybe even lower.
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Old 2004-04-19, 04:47   Link #104
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Neji would kick that little pricks ass no doubt. Why? Because Neji will be fighting with a purpose and it's about time Sasuke learned where a real Shinobi's strength comes from. Not to mention at Sasuke's current level of Sharingan mastery he'll be having a hard time anyway. I don't care if he is level two or not Neji can bitch slap him all the way to sound village for all I care, at least Neji will have his "COMRADES" backing him up aswell... yeah the same "COMRADES" that Sasuke has abandoned. Too bad Neji is virtually dead at the present time isn't it.
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Old 2004-04-19, 09:21   Link #105
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From the point of time of episode 79. Neji I believe would clearly win. Sasuke has no movies that could get through nejis ultamate defense not even the chidori. The only reason naruto was able to win was the tremendous surge of energy from kyuubi and even that, by itself, wasn't enough to break neji's defense only the suprise attack from underground did that.

Sasuke's speed I don't think would be a factor. I think in the prelims Rock Lee's speed would have beaten neji... But neji saw this speed in Rock Lee and knew he had to get his act together or he was going to lose to (what in his eyes was) a loser. For this he developed the ultamate defense to counter that speed. The Chidori wouldn't be enough to break the defense either. It broke Gaara's defense because gaara's defense was largly based to defend aganist physical attacks but the chidori attacks with raw chakra. Neji's defense is raw chakra and bounces back physical and chakra attacks.

From the stand point of Episode 79 Sasuke simply has nothing that could topple neji.
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Old 2004-04-19, 10:54   Link #106
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This fight is really a though one to predict, I think there are 4 points which can play on the victory or the defeat of these two fighters.

The effect of the curse seal : the curse seal tears off the chakra from the body of the user, allowing to use more chakra than he would be possible and safe in a normal case and thus to use their abilities at their limits.
In the case of Sasuke, that would makes him and his jutsus stronger, faster, etc.
The effect of the level 2 of the curse are still unknown.

Jyuken Taijutsu + Byakugan vs. Gouken Taijutsu + Sharingan : I think that Neji is able to see Sasuke's attack with the Byakugan, and Sasuke is able to see, analyze and predict Neji's attacks with his Sharingan.
The ability of Sasuke to predict the counter attacks could allow him to fight in close combat with Neji during a moment but I think it remains too dangerous, even with the Sharingan to predict the attacks, the 64 hands of Hakke isn't something to take lightly. And even if Neji can't escape a blow, he can use the Kaiten.
Slight advantage for Neji, but insufficient to wedge Sasuke in the gentle fist, it's a draw, neither of these abilities can give a clear edge against the opponent.

Kaiten vs. Chidori : Very hard to predict, there are several possibilities.
1/That could be just a question of amount of chakra, because the more chakra you have, the more the Kaiten will be powerfull so logically it's just a question of chakra : No way that Neji can deflect the Rasengan of Jiraiya or that Sasuke can pierce the Kaiten of Hiashi for example.
And it's here that the curse seal of Sasuke acts, it would allow the focused mass of chakra of the Chidori to pierce the wall of chakra distributed evenly around the body of the Kaiten.

2/But the Kaiten isn't just a wall of chakra, it spins, the chakra is in motion and thus it's possible that chakra's spin whips Sasuke's hand away even if he uses more chakra.

3/What's the result of a the clash of two huge mass of chakra crushing themself into each other?
According to the fight Naruto vs. Neji I'm tempted to say that the result would be an huge explosion.
And this is more dangerous for Neji because the hand of Sasuke is protected by the chakra that heightens the flesh to transform it into a blade.

No conclusion here, too many factors.
Let's wait for kishimoto's answer ^^

Overall strategy, use of different weapons and weaker jutsu : Both Sasuke and Neji seem to be very good tacticians, I don't think that we can say which one is the best.
But there is a difference, Neji is an awesome tactician in the use of his capacities, he knows perfectly his force and his weakness, his tactics of combat are completely based on the use of the Byakugan combined with the Jyuken.

In the other hand, if Sasuke is mainly an infighter as well, using the Sharingan combined with the Gouken, he uses his Taijutsu abilities with weapons (strings, kunais, shirukens, etc.) and several Katon jutsus.
And that's the point which can give him an edge over Neji, the use of the strings can block the legs of Neji during a critical instant (as Sasuke did against Sakon), The Katon jutsu can force Neji to waste his chakra to execute the Kaiten, so does combined attacks of Kunais/shiruken/strings controled with the Sharingan as against Oro.
Even if he's unable to find the secret blind angle of the Byakugan (he hasn't an infinite amount of Kunai as the spider dude), the use of this weapons and jutsus give him an advantage over Neji, perhaps sufficiently to beat him.

Well this fight would be absolutely awesome, Neji and Sasuke are my favorite fighter ^^

But it's now too late for Neji to win against Sasuke.
Without even speaking of the curse seal level 2 which will boost incredibly his power, ie much faster than Lee without the weigth, stronger, etc. I don't believe that the story allows somebody other than Naruto to beat Sasuke now.
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Old 2004-04-19, 11:07   Link #107
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No one has ever considered the possibility that there could be tiny imperfections in the kaiten. After all, it is comprised of chakra emitted from chakra holes spun around. I'm sure there are weak spots in it and strong spots in it, and I think that if there were such, perhaps only one with the sharingan could detect it. Sasuke's eyes allow him to see more of a slow motion type of kaiten in comparison to Naruto's eyes. I think that there's the chance he could find a weakness
Spoiler:
and exploit it.
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Old 2004-04-19, 11:25   Link #108
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Sasuke WILL indefinitely own Neji's ass.

According to Gai, the way to beating Neji is by using high speed taijutsu. Sasuke has already reached Lee's level of speed without even the level 1 curse seal and the other time when he evaded Zaku's technique with the curse seal on, while carrying Naruto and Sakura, it was already very fast and he hasn't even have Lee's speed at that time.

All Sasuke has to do is connect the kick to the Lion Combo and Neji would be toast. Seeing Neji's reaction speed to Naruto's surprise attack from the ground i doubt he would be able to dodge it.
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Old 2004-04-19, 11:51   Link #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImWeaseL
According to Gai, the way to beating Neji is by using high speed taijutsu.
Howcome people mess that one up, he says the secret to beating Neji lies within the high speed combo (of the 5-gates-move!). I thought the curse seal did something similar to the gates, but it can't be more powerful than opening one or two, though
Spoiler:
Also, Neji is not surprised by Lee's speed until 1. He gets it back after having opened one gate 2. He opens 5 gates...
We don't know the full potential of a Byakugan user either, maybe it's possible to predict ninjutsus by seeing the chakra becomming a jutsu .
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Old 2004-04-19, 11:58   Link #110
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Originally Posted by nh1
Howcome people mess that one up, he says the secret to beating Neji lies within the high speed combo (of the 5-gates-move!). I thought the curse seal did something similar to the gates, but it can't be more powerful than opening one or two, though
Spoiler:
Also, Neji is not surprised by Lee's speed until 1. He gets it back after having opened one gate 2. He opens 5 gates...
We don't know the full potential of a Byakugan user either, maybe it's possible to predict ninjutsus by seeing the chakra becomming a jutsu .
Sorry, my bad .

Regardless, i think the Lion Combo would still work against Neji though. He is too slow to dodge the opening kick and the reason Lee decided not to use it was because the Lotus was supposed to be a forbidden technique so i dont think he would use it on his own teammate.
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Old 2004-04-19, 12:07   Link #111
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muad'Dib
No one has ever considered the possibility that there could be tiny imperfections in the kaiten. After all, it is comprised of chakra emitted from chakra holes spun around. I'm sure there are weak spots in it and strong spots in it, and I think that if there were such, perhaps only one with the sharingan could detect it. Sasuke's eyes allow him to see more of a slow motion type of kaiten in comparison to Naruto's eyes. I think that there's the chance he could find a weakness
Spoiler:
and exploit it.
Actually I thought of that too, but I think it's unlikely.
At the contrary to the Doton Kekkai Doroudoumu where Jiroubou emitted chakra far from him and so the furthest position of the chakra had also the thinnest concentration, Neji is the center of the chakra emission, and thus the chakra of the Kaiten should be distributed evenly around his body.
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Old 2004-04-19, 12:24   Link #112
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Originally Posted by Hunter
Actually I thought of that too, but I think it's unlikely.
At the contrary to the Doton Kekkai Doroudoumu where Jiroubou emitted chakra far from him and so the furthest position of the chakra had also the thinnest concentration, Neji is the center of the chakra emission, and thus the chakra of the Kaiten should be distributed evenly around his body.
Not to mention he is also spinning so the chakra must have the same intensity around his body.
ImWeasel i don't think the Lion Combo would work against Neji, i mean Gai said that the key for Lee to defeat Neji is the Ura Renge and not the Omote Renge, so we can think that Lee wouldn't be able to pull a Omote Renge on Neji and if Lee can't pull it by opening the Initial Gate then Sasuke who only copied the movements can't do it either, also you are judging it based on Neji reaction speed after he was hit with a big attack by Naruto in that situation he was almost without Chakra and didn't had Byakukan on.
I still think Neji would triumph over Sasuke, because i think that the only attack Sasuke has that can connect on a person like Neji is the Chidori but i sincerely doubt that Neji Kaiten wouldn't at least detour the Chidori, not to mention that Neji has the Byakukan so he has a fairly good chance of dodging the Chidori, in Hunter words this would be a awesome fight but i don't think Kishimoto will put the 2 genius fighting each other.
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Old 2004-04-19, 12:28   Link #113
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Spinning objects can have weak points in them. For instance, the geomagnetism around the earth is weak about the polar regions. In pulsars (pulsating stars, also known as neutron stars,) streams of neutrons are emitted at the poles, and that's how they are detectable by us. I doubt the area directly beneath Neji's feat is covered very well by the Kaiten, and it could be weak right above his head.
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Old 2004-04-19, 12:52   Link #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muad'Dib
Spinning objects can have weak points in them. For instance, the geomagnetism around the earth is weak about the polar regions. In pulsars (pulsating stars, also known as neutron stars,) streams of neutrons are emitted at the poles, and that's how they are detectable by us. I doubt the area directly beneath Neji's feat is covered very well by the Kaiten, and it could be weak right above his head.
then how do you explain the huge crater that neji/whomever does whenever they do the kaiten. half the damage IS the crater.
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Old 2004-04-19, 12:58   Link #115
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Actually, the shape of the crater lends credence to my belief that the kaiten is weaker about the feet, and even upwards. If you notice, the crater has a uniform depth to it. That means, that even as the chakra was distributed outwards, (and therefore would become less dense than initially) the effect on the ground remained the same. This suggests that a logarhythmic function of some sort could be used to describe the relative power of the kaiten under spherical parameters.

Put simply, if the power of the kaiten were the same all the way around, the area under Neji's (or Hiashi's feet) would have carved out deeper than the circumference of the crater.

So, we have two possible situations. Either A)The Hyuuga's consciously don't put as much chakra into the foot area (increases upwards logarhythmically) or B)The Hyuuga's can't put as much chakra into the foot area.

Either situation presents a weakness that is exploitable.
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Old 2004-04-19, 13:05   Link #116
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take a peek at hisashi-sama (or whomever. get the twins befuddled)

that is no small crater.
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Old 2004-04-19, 13:33   Link #117
Muad'Dib
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Originally Posted by hobobaggins
take a peek at hisashi-sama (or whomever. get the twins befuddled)

that is no small crater.
Please reread my previous post. Your reply has no pertinence to what I said.

To put it another way, the kaiten works because of the spin. However, if you were to look at the angular velocity of the kaiten, it is greatest towards the equator and the smallest at the poles. Therefore, it would only naturally follow that the technique is weaker the further away from the equator.
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Old 2004-04-19, 13:49   Link #118
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Originally Posted by Muad'Dib
Please reread my previous post. Your reply has no pertinence to what I said.

To put it another way, the kaiten works because of the spin. However, if you were to look at the angular velocity of the kaiten, it is greatest towards the equator and the smallest at the poles. Therefore, it would only naturally follow that the technique is weaker the further away from the equator.
No, i don't think the equator is not filled with chakra,how do i explain this its like a bow a line who is like this ( . So its the same overall
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Old 2004-04-19, 14:05   Link #119
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Do you even know how dumb that sounds? Hiashi has mastered Byakugan, so did Neji i think. But as said before Sharingan owns Byakugan.We don't actually now %50 of what SHaringan is capable of maybe even lower.
Oh, so you mean
Spoiler:


Somehow I seriously doubt that Neji has maxed out his Byakugan.
Spoiler:



Hunter, Neji doesn't use the Kaiten every single time something is moving towards him. Plus, even if Neji had to block Katon's with the Kaiten, Sasuke must still use his own chakra to create a fireball. During the Naruto fight, we've seen him dodge/catch kunais with ease, so using those would pretty much be useless against Neji and/or give him something to throw at Sasuke.
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Old 2004-04-19, 14:07   Link #120
Muad'Dib
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Originally Posted by Nine Devil
No, i don't think the equator is not filled with chakra,how do i explain this its like a bow a line who is like this ( . So its the same overall
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to say.

And remember, the kaiten doesn't work by the mere fact that there's chakra--but because of the spinning of the chakra/user. Therefore the greater spin the better kaiten, correct? The spinning of any spherical object is greater at the equator. Go and spin a bicycle wheel. Notice that the fastest part of it is the wheel part, and as you go from the wheel into the very center, the angular velocity approaches 0.

Therefore, as the angular velocity of Neji's spin approaches 0, his kaiten is rendered ineffective. Therefore, his kaiten is ineffective directly above and directly beneath him- at the exact endpoints of his rotational axis.
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