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Old 2004-04-21, 15:24   Link #161
Lexander
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Spoiler:
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Old 2004-04-21, 17:58   Link #162
stylez
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Lexander, ur so right only his juyken gentle fist style jutsu could break the web.
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Old 2004-04-22, 02:17   Link #163
raikage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
We do know that the Sharingan is able to influence the opponent since Zabuza.



Frankly no, Like I said the genjutsu abilities of the Sharingan are a given since the volume 2, it always has external manifestation.
In the other hand, to say that the Byakugan has a special jutsu like that is a fairy tales, the same as to say that it allows to become invisible or to create some sort of chakra laser beam ^^


Indeed but I think it's quite clear that the Kaiten uses way more chakra than a mere fire ball

It's not because someone can dodge a knife that suddenly it becomes useless to throw anything at him, especially for someone who can predict how his opponent will react to avoid the kunai.
The genjutsu abilities of the Sharingan are not a given. During the Zabuza fight, Kakashi used the Sharingan to read the seals and figure out which jutsu Zabuza would use. I don't think he copied them on the spot - he is the man of 1000 jutsus, after all. I'm pretty sure he's seen that particular jutsu before, but it's just a hunch - no actual facts supporting or against.

In any case, because Zabuza had (presumably) not seen the Sharingan before, his confidence was rattled, at which point Kakashi used a genjutsu (not native to the Sharingan) to further disorient Zabuza.

The Byakugan being able to create its own external jutsus is not too far away from the concept of a copy-eye all of a sudden being able to create its own thing.

Spoiler:


It's not quite clear that the Kaiten uses more chakra than a fireball - I actually think it uses a lot. Consider:
Your own chakra is used to superheat the air to the point where it combusts
You then use chakra to propel the air towards your opponent

Or, you don't heat the air, but rather propel your own chakra towards the opponent in the shape of a fireball. In this case,
You must provide enough chakra to keep the fireball alive - giving it fuel before launching it.

In either case, one must put in enough chakra to make it decent - a fireball of 100 Fahrenheit (37 C) probably won't do too much damage. The fire must be heated enough to make an impact - and however hot that is, I'm guessing quite a bit of chakra must be used.

It's true that if Neji can dodge one knife, it doesn't mean he can dodge twenty. Remember, though, that every kunai he catches is one more that he can throw at you.
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Old 2004-04-22, 04:25   Link #164
bal
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When talking strictly about Neji and Sasuke (not Sharingan and Byakugan) Neji would probably win with his skills.

Neji is a real genius.. He came up with kaitan move on his own and 64 strike thing simply amazed his uncle. He is probably going to surpass any Hyuuga in his clan.. head or branch member.

While Sasuke has developed a lot in few months and granted Neji has got years of training to get where he is... Sasuke pretty much got things handed to him. Lee's taijutsu and Kakashi's chidori. He certainly is a genius (Grand fireball-no-jutsu at that level) but Neji seems to be more skilled at this point.
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Old 2004-04-22, 04:42   Link #165
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Since the original question was Who would win in a Curse Seal Level 2 Sasuke with his Sharingan vs Neji with his Byakagun, I find this entire thread technically pointless until we know what kind of enhancement or new special abilities he gains...though the scenarios and analysis people have posted through these nine pages are well constructed regarding Sasuke with Lv2 chakra boost vs Neji. In that regard, I would have to say Neji after reading all the arguments presented in this thread; however, if Neji and Sasuke were to see other's fully ability before they fight, then the favor heavily shifts to Sasuke.
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Old 2004-04-22, 05:12   Link #166
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Ah, sarcasteak, don't try to take all the fun away. This way we can debate BEFORE we see Sasuke's new super-saiyan powers and then debate for another 9 pages AFTER we see them. Oh, the excitement!! Btw, if the original question had a reference to the Lvl 2 seal in it, that means spoilers are go-go right? No need for pesky spoiler tags?
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Old 2004-04-22, 05:43   Link #167
sarcasteak
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Originally Posted by Dorfl
Ah, sarcasteak, don't try to take all the fun away. This way we can debate BEFORE we see Sasuke's new super-saiyan powers and then debate for another 9 pages AFTER we see them. Oh, the excitement!! Btw, if the original question had a reference to the Lvl 2 seal in it, that means spoilers are go-go right? No need for pesky spoiler tags?
True, true. I'm merely pointing out the obvious.


Meh, the whole rule regarding spoilers pretty much indicates "when in doubt, use spoiler tags if there's any risk of spoiling (unless topic is anime-only in which manga spoiler is not allowed)"
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Old 2004-04-22, 05:56   Link #168
Ryota
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Curses seal level 2 isn't that "hugh"

Neji fought "evenly" against a curses seal level 2.
So i don't know who will win, but i think the chances will be at Neji's, cuz if he's fast enough he can attack Sasuke before he releases his level 2

Vicious said something about: "he would be able to beat Neji, and probably even Naruto."

I don't think he can defeat Naruto

Naruto can use (almost) all the powers of the Kyuubi now.
Orochimaru = stronger than 3th Hokage? <- maybe
Orochimaru = stronger than curses seal level 2? <-- i think oro would kick a level 2's ass
3th = stronger than 4th <-- do you really think the 3th is WAAAAAAY stronger?

Which means the 4th is problably stronger than a level 2-user
4th died while defeating Kyuubi which means Naruto can (almost) reach the level of the 4th (brute power/less control)

Anywayz, what i'm trying to say is:
with the Kyuubi powers i think Naruto IS stronger than Sasuke level 2

so maybe it's more interesting to think if Naruto is stronger than Neji or not

(sorry for my english)
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Old 2004-04-22, 06:13   Link #169
bal
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Errr... Naruto is certainly stronger then Neji (he defeated Neji :S) of course with his 9 tails...

Naruto was also able to stay on gama without any 9 tails chakara.. in pretty bad shape... And only 4th has been able to control the frog boss.


Naruto is certainly going to be stronger then anyone in konoha or the entire series for that matters. No doubt about that!
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Old 2004-04-22, 07:36   Link #170
sarcasteak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryota
Curses seal level 2 isn't that "hugh"

Neji fought "evenly" against a curses seal level 2.
Spoiler:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryota
So i don't know who will win, but i think the chances will be at Neji's, cuz if he's fast enough he can attack Sasuke before he releases his level 2
Heh...same argument can be said about anyone against any other opponent; successful instant-KO move = win, duh! XD
Okay okay, seriously speaking, "speed" is too difficult to estimate between Neji and Sasuke. We can safely assume Sasuke has faster movement, but whether his actual taijutsu speed is faster than Neji's eyes and body I can't really tell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryota
Naruto can use (almost) all the powers of the Kyuubi now.
This is off topic, and I think you meant Naruto could borrow Kyuubi's chakra; to what extent we don't know, but I find it hard to believe that Naruto can serve as a containment for most/all of Kyuubi's chakra.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryota
Anywayz, what i'm trying to say is:
with the Kyuubi powers i think Naruto IS stronger than Sasuke level 2
so maybe it's more interesting to think if Naruto is stronger than Neji or not
Like bal just said, we've just seen Naruto's beating Neji in the Chuunin Exam! Once Naruto calls upon Kyuubi's separate chakra it's all over as gentle fist style (or at least at the level of Neji's) can seal the abnormal chakra of Kyuubi. About the only way Neji can win is act fast and merciless to render Naruto unconscious; actually, that's pretty much the only sure-fire way any sub-Jounin can win against Naruto providing that the said opponent is much faster than Naruto...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryota
(sorry for my english)
I believe you meant "huge" in the beginning, but other than that minor misspelling you are not bad at all! ^_^

Last edited by sarcasteak; 2004-04-22 at 08:53.
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Old 2004-04-22, 10:06   Link #171
Ryota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcasteak
Spoiler:



Heh...same argument can be said about anyone against any other opponent; successful instant-KO move = win, duh! XD
Okay okay, seriously speaking, "speed" is too difficult to estimate between Neji and Sasuke. We can safely assume Sasuke has faster movement, but whether his actual taijutsu speed is faster than Neji's eyes and body I can't really tell.


This is off topic, and I think you meant Naruto could borrow Kyuubi's chakra; to what extent we don't know, but I find it hard to believe that Naruto can serve as a containment for most/all of Kyuubi's chakra.


Like bal just said, we've just seen Naruto's beating Neji in the Chuunin Exam! Once Naruto calls upon Kyuubi's separate chakra it's all over as gentle fist style (or at least at the level of Neji's) can seal the abnormal chakra of Kyuubi. About the only way Neji can win is act fast and merciless to render Naruto unconscious; actually, that's pretty much the only sure-fire way any sub-Jounin can win against Naruto providing that the said opponent is much faster than Naruto...


I believe you meant "huge" in the beginning, but other than that minor misspelling you are not bad at all! ^_^
Exept for your last quote: looked like i could better keep my mouth shut
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Old 2004-04-22, 10:24   Link #172
sarcasteak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryota
Exept for your last quote: looked like i could better keep my mouth shut
No, no! Sorry if I sounded unfriendly or harsh; that was not my intention at all. I was merely pointing out which of yours I don't agree with and explaining my reasoning for my disagreement, and I do apologize if my playful tone wasn't expressed clearly (it happens often).

And for the record no one should discourage others from making meaningful comments like the one you've posted.
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Old 2004-04-22, 10:27   Link #173
Ryota
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Thanks

I HOPE Neji would win, cuz I like him more
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Old 2004-04-22, 11:11   Link #174
Hunter
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Originally Posted by raikage
The genjutsu abilities of the Sharingan are not a given. During the Zabuza fight, Kakashi used the Sharingan to read the seals and figure out which jutsu Zabuza would use. I don't think he copied them on the spot - he is the man of 1000 jutsus, after all. I'm pretty sure he's seen that particular jutsu before, but it's just a hunch - no actual facts supporting or against.
You clearly forgot this fight raikage
First Kakashi copied Zabuza's hand seal and position, then he copied his mind, and then he hypnotized him to suggest what hand seals Zabuza should perform.
It's completely explained in the manga.

Quote:
The Byakugan being able to create its own external jutsus is not too far away from the concept of a copy-eye all of a sudden being able to create its own thing.
Well sorry but no.
You can have all the guessess as you want even when they aren't supported by facts like this one, but you can't use them to defend a point, it's stupid.
The fact is that as far as we know, the Sharingan has special genjutsu abilities (and I don't speak of the Tsukiyomi) when there isn't a single clue about a new ability for the Byakugan.
Actually it's even the opposite, it's the whole point of Neji surpassing the Main familly by learning on his own its two best secret jutsus only known by the Heir of the Hyuga.

Quote:
Spoiler:
lol no, I didn't start this one ^^
It comes from the re-translation of Inane of the chapter whatever (148?), and even if we don't know exactly how this jutsu works, it's true that for the moment it seems than the target is burned literally in a blink of eye.

Quote:
It's not quite clear that the Kaiten uses more chakra than a fireball - I actually think it uses a lot. Consider:
[...]
In either case, one must put in enough chakra to make it decent - a fireball of 100 Fahrenheit (37 C) probably won't do too much damage. The fire must be heated enough to make an impact - and however hot that is, I'm guessing quite a bit of chakra must be used.
You don't superheat the air to the point where it combusts with Katon as you don't superwet the air with Suiton to use a water jutsu lol
To use a simple Katon jutsu use a fair amount of chakra indeed, usually too much for an aspirant as Kakashi said.
But nothing near a jutsu using directly the chakra as a weapon, where there is so much focused chakra that it becomes visible like the Chidori or the Kaiten.

Quote:
It's true that if Neji can dodge one knife, it doesn't mean he can dodge twenty. Remember, though, that every kunai he catches is one more that he can throw at you.
You miss my point, it's not about that he can dodge a kunai or twenty for that matters, it's about that a Sharingan user can know how he will dodge it.
The Byakugan allows to know 'everything' in the present, but the Sharingan is always one step above because it can predict how the opponent will react to this present.
How he will move, how he will try to avoid an attack, how the counter attack will be done etc.
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Old 2004-04-22, 11:54   Link #175
sarcasteak
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Originally Posted by Hunter
You clearly forgot this fight raikage
First Kakashi copied Zabuza's hand seal and position, then he copied his mind, and then he hypnotized him to suggest what hand seals Zabuza should perform.
It's completely explained in the manga.
Yes, and isn't hypnosis considered a general type of genjutsu? Besides, what happened during the battle was presented through the genins' and Zabuza's perspectives, not Kakashi's, so what appeared and were said cannot be taken as iron-facts as we the readers were meant to be fooled by Kakashi as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
The fact is that as far as we know, the Sharingan has special genjutsu abilities (and I don't speak of the Tsukiyomi) when there isn't a single clue about a new ability for the Byakugan.
Page 13~15 of chapter 26 offers a full interpretation by Zabuza (and Haku) of how the Sharingan worked that Kakashi seemed to concur. Although Zabuza never specified whether the genjutsu is a built-in ability of the Sharingan, you are calling the built-in hypnotism a fact though it was never clearly verified. The only fact "as far as we know" is that the Sharingan allows its user to see things and react at an insane speed; the whole copying and seeing-through aspects of Sharingan are nothing more than the results of the eye reflex. You can go ahead and consider it a fact that auto-genjutsu is a by product of the Sharingan if you want, though I can just as well say it's not...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
It comes from the re-translation of Inane of the chapter whatever (148?), and even if we don't know exactly how this jutsu works, it's true that for the moment it seems than the target is burned literally in a blink of eye.
I don't think it matters whether you read from a scanslation or an official print; your description is exactly as shown and thus correct. ^_^


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
You miss my point, it's not about that he can dodge a kunai or twenty for that matters, it's about that a Sharingan user can know how he will dodge it.
The Byakugan allows to know 'everything' in the present, but the Sharingan is always one step above because it can predict how the opponent will react to this present.
How he will move, how he will try to avoid an attack, how the counter attack will be done etc.
I don't like the way you worded this, but yah I don't think Raikage understood your point.
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Old 2004-04-22, 12:01   Link #176
Lexander
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waaait a second ... I thought Kakashi simply guessed which seal Zabuza going to use. He mimiced everything he did. I don't remember any hypnotizing using the sharingan. Sure Zabuza had a psychological breakdown, but it wasn't directly caused by the sharingan.
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Old 2004-04-22, 12:21   Link #177
sarcasteak
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Originally Posted by Lexander
waaait a second ... I thought Kakashi simply guessed which seal Zabuza going to use. He mimiced everything he did. I don't remember any hypnotizing using the sharingan. Sure Zabuza had a psychological breakdown, but it wasn't directly caused by the sharingan.
Re-read the specific chapters or re-watch the episodes is all I can say; all my older Naruto episodes are stored away on CDs at home so I can't look for you, but from the official Chinese manga (also at home >_<) that I just re-read two weeks ago I recall that Zabuza did mention Kakashi's applying hypnotism. Here is the near-exact dialogue quoted from an English scanslation by Mike and AK of Troy, though if you want to question its validity and accuracy then there's not much more I can do here:

Quote:
Z denotes Zabuza, K Kakashi, and italics describe the image/background of the frames.

Z: You acted as if you knew everything..."Z: Can you see the future?" from the first fight

Z: ...but that prediction was wrong. "K: Yeah.. You're going to die." from the first fight

Z: Kakashi....You can neither read my mind nor see the future...
Z: The Sharingan...Is simply a trick that makes your opponent think that you can. Kakashi up-side down

Z: It's basically an eye technique involving hypnotism and an attention for detail.
Z: By using those two abilities together, you can progress from copying the book to copying the mind to copying the jutsu. Kakashi and his Sharingan wide-open with his head slightly lowered

Z: This is the dance that makes it seem like you can see the future. Kakashi's back in the mist

Z: First, with that keen eye you copy my movements and shake my mind. illustration of "Body Copying" from earlier battle with both of them raising an arm above the water with the other hand holding a seal

Z: Once I am confused you are able to figure out what I'll say and can become me. And then... illustration of "Mind Copying" from earlier battle with "Z: Heh..You're just copying me." and "K+Z: You can't beat me with that, you monkey bastard!!"

Z: Once my worry and confusion reach its peak, you attack with a clever trick. Through hypnotic genjutsu, you suggest what seal I should perform.
Z: And then you simply copy that. illustration of "Jutsu Copying" from earlier battle with a blurry Zabuza behind Kakashi, both holding the same seal

And then couple frames later,

Z: Hehe...And if I keep my eyes closed I remove the chance of being hypnotized..


Oh, and Lexander, your PM inbox was full so I'll ask you here:
The more I see your posts the more I like the art style of your ava and sig. Would you mind telling me the source of them so I could look for more myself or uploading whatever originals you have if you do not know of its source or that it no longer exists? Thanks in advance!
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Old 2004-04-22, 12:29   Link #178
Lexander
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Thank you very much. I must have missed that part. The sharingan is more powerful than I thought it was ...
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Old 2004-04-22, 12:29   Link #179
raikage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
You don't superheat the air to the point where it combusts with Katon as you don't superwet the air with Suiton to use a water jutsu lol
To use a simple Katon jutsu use a fair amount of chakra indeed, usually too much for an aspirant as Kakashi said.
But nothing near a jutsu using directly the chakra as a weapon, where there is so much focused chakra that it becomes visible like the Chidori or the Kaiten.



You miss my point, it's not about that he can dodge a kunai or twenty for that matters, it's about that a Sharingan user can know how he will dodge it.
The Byakugan allows to know 'everything' in the present, but the Sharingan is always one step above because it can predict how the opponent will react to this present.
How he will move, how he will try to avoid an attack, how the counter attack will be done etc.
The fireball does still manipulate chakra, and the heat has to be generated somehow.

Remembering that 1 calorie = the amount of energy needed to raise 1 cc of water by 1 C. How many calories does it take to create and maintain a fireball hot enough to damage the opponent (however hot that may be)? I'm guessing a lot.
While it IS true that the body energy is supplemented by spiritual energy, it's still a very chakra-intensive jutsu.

The Sharingan can't see into the future. One can guess what the enemy will do through battle-sense, acquired through years of fighting, but it's not absolute. Look no further than Kakashi's getting caught in the Water Prison. If he knew what would happen, why did he jump in? (Please, no existantlism-type answers.)
Given that, being able to guess whether an opponent will dodge to the left or the right seems faintly ridiculous.
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Old 2004-04-22, 12:52   Link #180
Lexander
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Yes agreed. The Katon done by the 3rd looked insanely hot.
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