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Old 2004-11-09, 23:49   Link #21
HoBoZ
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"Kira/Athrun dying would teach ANYONE that war is pointless? No, because they were both fighting for peace and the war would eventually end for that reason, whether they lived or died."

Fallacy. evading the argument. did u read what i typed?

you are TOTALY missing my point. i am not talking about the PLOT OVERALL.
i am talking about the eps BEFORE the fight between Kira and Asuran. the FIRST thing i said is that, i believe that the eps after should be REMOVED. so HOW R U GOING TO ARGUE ME WITH EPS that r not even PART OF MY POINT?
OF COURSE the FIGHT WILL STOP, for "their" PLOT to continue, THE FIGHT MUST STOP.

"The plot showed that people can think for themselves, they can stop the perpetuating cycle of bloodshed, did you not see the important scene at the end with the ZAFT officers refusing Zala's orders to fire on earth, to 'protect their families'?"

This is the plot they TRIED to integrate into the SECOND HALF of the anime, which hopefully if u remember, i dont give a shit about.
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Old 2004-11-10, 00:02   Link #22
Derelict
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoBoZ
"Kira/Athrun dying would teach ANYONE that war is pointless? No, because they were both fighting for peace and the war would eventually end for that reason, whether they lived or died."

Fallacy. evading the argument. did u read what i typed?

you are TOTALY missing my point. i am not talking about the PLOT OVERALL.
i am talking about the eps BEFORE the fight between Kira and Asuran. the FIRST thing i said is that, i believe that the eps after should be REMOVED. so HOW R U GOING TO ARGUE ME WITH EPS that r not even PART OF MY POINT?
OF COURSE the FIGHT WILL STOP, for "their" PLOT to continue, THE FIGHT MUST STOP.

"The plot showed that people can think for themselves, they can stop the perpetuating cycle of bloodshed, did you not see the important scene at the end with the ZAFT officers refusing Zala's orders to fire on earth, to 'protect their families'?"

This is the plot they TRIED to integrate into the SECOND HALF of the anime, which hopefully if u remember, i dont give a shit about.
Because they are part of the PLOT. Didn't you read what -I- said? The plot of the first half would NOT show that war is pointless if Kira/Athrun died fighting each other. I have a fundamental disagreement with you asserting that it would.

Tell me, how was it pointless that Kira protected the ArchAngel over all those hardships? How was it pointless that even while in battle, he did believe there was another way to resolve the enemies differences? And oh yeah, I did happen to mention that it WASN'T pointless that Kira handed over Lacus(first half), that he couldn't ignore the injustice, shouldn't he have killed her? Shouldn't they have killed Daerka(first half)?

How would it be pointless if they died? Even if we did cut the plot in half like you insist, the result WOULD NOT show that war is pointless.
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Old 2004-11-10, 00:41   Link #23
dreamless
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well, I don't think SEED would be great if it ends half-way with Athrun/Kira killing each other, but the latter part of SEED doesn't fare any better than that. Especially with stupid things like Lacus sermonizing everyone and Uzumi cosplaying Sephiroth

Kira handing Lacus over is not something just, it's something stupid. This stupidity caused the death of everyone in the 8th Fleet and the civilians in the escape shuttle.
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Old 2004-11-10, 01:02   Link #24
Derelict
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Originally Posted by dreamless
well, I don't think SEED would be great if it ends half-way with Athrun/Kira killing each other, but the latter part of SEED doesn't fare any better than that. Especially with stupid things like Lacus sermonizing everyone and Uzumi cosplaying Sephiroth

Kira handing Lacus over is not something just, it's something stupid. This stupidity caused the death of everyone in the 8th Fleet and the civilians in the escape shuttle.
It may have been 'stupid' tactically, but it proved my assertion that war wasn't pointless throughout the first half of SEED, that war isn't so black and white.

This was a ripple that slowly built into a tidal wave at the end of the series.
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Old 2004-11-10, 04:53   Link #25
duotiga
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well...technically speaking, Kira almost, i say again ALMOST kill Athrun in episode 29 and the same for Athrun almost kill Kira in episode 30. At that point the anime has reach its climax esp the pilot got killed is not them , but someone else dear to them.....
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Old 2004-11-10, 05:57   Link #26
rainz
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Well, I think having Athrun and Kira killed each other would have made the ending more powerful emotionally. Better or not, I dare not judge, but I'm sure the horde of fangirls wouldn't like it.

To a certain extent, I think having them killed each other would underline the theme that war is pointless. Just think it through. Two best friends who obviously cared for each other a lot, forced to fight each other by war. Times and times again, they clash in battles, hurting the others without ever meaning to. They think many times of joining the other side, but the situation of war and their own sense of responsbility prevents that from ever happening. In the end, consumed by hate, they killed each other.

If it ends this way, the audience will be forced to think many things. Why did Kira and Athrun fight? They aren't even enemies originally, and the only reason Kira continue to fight his dear friend is to protect his other dear friends. A virtuos thing to do, but the only thing it achieves is making Kira's life even more miserable. Why must this happen? to carry out their different ideals? but what "ideals", Kira didn't even care for the war to begin with, and Athrun clearly did not hate Naturals, or he wouldn't be dating one. So in the end, the only reason they are forced to fight is because of the war situation. Should any one man be forced to endure this, just because some powerful military leaders somewhere told them to?

Hopefully, the answer will be "no", and so the anime will give out a strong anti-war message. So yes, Derelict, war definitely isn't black and white. It is fought by 'grey' people like Kira and Athrun, who did not even want to fight each other. From this point of view, isn't war rather pointless?

Of course, there are other themes in the first portion of Seed, but tragic ending always take center stage in my opinion...
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Old 2004-11-10, 09:18   Link #27
Derelict
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainz
Well, I think having Athrun and Kira killed each other would have made the ending more powerful emotionally. Better or not, I dare not judge, but I'm sure the horde of fangirls wouldn't like it.

To a certain extent, I think having them killed each other would underline the theme that war is pointless. Just think it through. Two best friends who obviously cared for each other a lot, forced to fight each other by war. Times and times again, they clash in battles, hurting the others without ever meaning to. They think many times of joining the other side, but the situation of war and their own sense of responsbility prevents that from ever happening. In the end, consumed by hate, they killed each other.

If it ends this way, the audience will be forced to think many things. Why did Kira and Athrun fight? They aren't even enemies originally, and the only reason Kira continue to fight his dear friend is to protect his other dear friends. A virtuos thing to do, but the only thing it achieves is making Kira's life even more miserable. Why must this happen? to carry out their different ideals? but what "ideals", Kira didn't even care for the war to begin with, and Athrun clearly did not hate Naturals, or he wouldn't be dating one. So in the end, the only reason they are forced to fight is because of the war situation. Should any one man be forced to endure this, just because some powerful military leaders somewhere told them to?

Hopefully, the answer will be "no", and so the anime will give out a strong anti-war message. So yes, Derelict, war definitely isn't black and white. It is fought by 'grey' people like Kira and Athrun, who did not even want to fight each other. From this point of view, isn't war rather pointless?

Of course, there are other themes in the first portion of Seed, but tragic ending always take center stage in my opinion...
Uh, I HAVE thought it through, otherwise I wouldn't be arguing against such a thing. Two people dying, no matter if they were friends or not in a war doesn't prove to me that war is pointless and Athrun never had a girlfriend that was a Natural, Lacus/Cagalli are both coordinators. You might say that it would be pointless for two dear friends to kill each other, but were they forced into it? Was Athrun forced to fight for Nikol's sake? Kira for Tohru's? No, this wasn't forcing them, they were already beginning to understand that war DID have a point, to protect those dear to you and at the same time, stand up for your ideals even if it is at the cost of your own life. Throughout the first half of SEED, with Daerka being spared even after Tohru was killed by his comrade, Kira releasing Lacus, who could have bought them a large advantage over ZAFT in the battlefield, ArchAngel putting all their faith on a young Coordinator, someone they were supposed to be fighting and killing, what does this tell us? That war is pointless?

Wittling the rest of the plot down, just for one minute point such as Kira and Athrun killing each other would not change the overall plot of the first half, it would not show that war is pointless. It shows that war can drive two good people to kill each other, two once close friends to cut their ties for the sake of, the belief of molding a better world with their sacrifice. Do you think if they died, would it all be in vain? Would their comrades think 'War is pointless, we should just slaughter them all'? No, any kind of death, sacrifice on a battlefield does not rob a war of it's point, nor is it pointless, death would be something perpetuated if it did happen, but hope is something given to everyone in that instance, even if they died.
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Old 2004-11-10, 09:23   Link #28
dreamless
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Umm... Cagalli is NOT a Coordinator, Cagalli is Natural, that's official.
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Old 2004-11-10, 09:28   Link #29
Derelict
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Originally Posted by dreamless
Umm... Cagalli is NOT a Coordinator, Cagalli is Natural, that's official.
Even then, she wasn't Athrun's girlfriend at that point(we are talking about the first half of the series) and if she isn't a coordinator, how did she enter SEED mode?
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Old 2004-11-10, 09:35   Link #30
sarcasteak
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Originally Posted by Derelict
and if she isn't a coordinator, how did she enter SEED mode?
Cagalli is a Natural. How did she enter SEED mode? Here's how:

Spoiler:
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Old 2004-11-10, 09:42   Link #31
Derelict
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Originally Posted by sarcasteak
Cagalli is a Natural. How did she enter SEED mode? Here's how:

Spoiler:
......
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Old 2004-11-10, 09:50   Link #32
dreamless
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SEED mode has nothing to do with being Coordinator or Natural.

http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds...misc.html#seed
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Old 2004-11-10, 10:22   Link #33
Derelict
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Originally Posted by dreamless
SEED mode has nothing to do with being Coordinator or Natural.

http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds...misc.html#seed
Then why was Cagalli the only natural to enter SEED mode? Why not Mwu?
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Old 2004-11-10, 10:35   Link #34
brightman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcasteak
Cagalli is a Natural. How did she enter SEED mode? Here's how:

Spoiler:
gah..

Spoiler:
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Old 2004-11-10, 10:36   Link #35
sarcasteak
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Originally Posted by Derelict
Then why was Cagalli the only natural to enter SEED mode? Why not Mwu?
Didn't I already explain this? Whoever was in charge of Gundam Seed wanted all four of the main characters to have SEED mode, and so they have; it's simply a rare factor, and being an ace pilot or a Newtype has no bearing on it.
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Old 2004-11-10, 10:37   Link #36
Derelict
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Originally Posted by sarcasteak
Didn't I already explain this? It's just this rare factor, and being an ace pilot or a Newtype has no bearing on it--whoever was in charge of Gundam Seed wanted all four of the main characters to have SEED mode, and so they have.
Please explain how Cagalli is more of a main character than Mwu, then.
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Old 2004-11-10, 10:39   Link #37
rainz
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Originally Posted by Derelict
Throughout the first half of SEED, with Daerka being spared even after Tohru was killed by his comrade, Kira releasing Lacus, who could have bought them a large advantage over ZAFT in the battlefield, ArchAngel putting all their faith on a young Coordinator, someone they were supposed to be fighting and killing, what does this tell us? That war is pointless?
I have a feeling we have a different perception of the term "war" and "pointless" in this particular case. To me, this war is about the EA and Zaft trying to kill each other. The causes maybe because of long racial tensions between the two, or the Valentine of Blood, or trade disagreements, whatever, you name it. The bottom line is that the war started because one side pretty much want to kill the other.

Now, as in your example, we have people like Kira, Athrun, and the AA crews, who pretty much get along relatifely fine with both Coordinators and Naturals. Kira and Athrun didn't even want to fight. We have people in the Lacus faction who agrees with her ideals. Don't all of these contradict the aim of the war?

If there are people who are fine with co-existing, who do not want to fight, who do not want to kill, why is there a war in the first place? Won't this make the war "pointless"? My point is that if Kira and Athrun killed each other, it would become the peak of this theme.
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Old 2004-11-10, 10:43   Link #38
sarcasteak
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Originally Posted by Derelict
Please explain how Cagalli is more of a main character than Mwu, then.
Hello? Did you totally miss the whole love square thing between those four...? Did the opening sequences not make it obvious enough? ^_^;;

Yes, Mwu was a very important character, but unfortunately the series wanted to concentrated on the romance between the youths instead.
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Old 2004-11-10, 10:50   Link #39
Derelict
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainz
I have a feeling we have a different perception of the term "war" and "pointless" in this particular case. To me, this war is about the EA and Zaft trying to kill each other. The causes maybe because of long racial tensions between the two, or the Valentine of Blood, or trade disagreements, whatever, you name it. The bottom line is that the war started because one side pretty much want to kill the other.

Now, as in your example, we have people like Kira, Athrun, and the AA crews, who pretty much get along relatifely fine with both Coordinators and Naturals. Kira and Athrun didn't even want to fight. We have people in the Lacus faction who agrees with her ideals. Don't all of these contradict the aim of the war?

If there are people who are fine with co-existing, who do not want to fight, who do not want to kill, why is there a war in the first place? Won't this make the war "pointless"? My point is that if Kira and Athrun killed each other, it would become the peak of this theme.
I think your point is false, then. Kira and Athrun killing each other would not make it seem like war is pointless, you're wrong about Kira/Athrun wanting to fight, they wanted to kill each other at that point, because after losing close friends, they realized what they were fighting for; something precious to them. People like this bring war a point, they don't perpetuate the POINTLESS bloodshed that is caused by blindly slaughtering the other side, them both dying at each others hands would not be pointless, war is not pointless. Even if a small fraction of people learn and work towards a humane end to such an atrocious time, then a war had a point, if anything if you suggested that the war was pointless and SEED really did end at that point, I'd be pretty confused as to how you came to that conclusion, tragedy happens in every war, Kira and Athrun didn't want to coexist at that point, they had something they believed in and they were prepared to kill each other for it.

Do you know WHY most of the main characters were the people that want to coexist? Rau, the Blue Cosmos and Zala are people that make war pointless, Kira and Athrun dying against each other at the end would not null everything that had happened before that, the faint glimmers of hope and the ultimate sacrifice for something that wasn't pointless, they found a reason to oppose each other at last, a reason for them to personally decide to fight, not blindly kill each other because they were just on opposing sides.

All of this would have had a point and I'd still disagree with you, even if the story had ended this way.
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Old 2004-11-10, 10:52   Link #40
Derelict
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Originally Posted by sarcasteak
Hello? Did you totally miss the whole love square thing between those four...? Did the opening sequences not make it obvious enough? ^_^;;

Yes, Mwu was a very important character, but unfortunately the series wanted to concentrated on the romance between the youths instead.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Lacus/Cagalli weren't involved in even 1/3 of the series, Mwu was around for all of it.
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