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Old 2004-11-10, 10:59   Link #41
dreamless
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derelict
Then why was Cagalli the only natural to enter SEED mode? Why not Mwu?
err... IMHO this question is really moot, it's like asking why Kira, Athrun and Lacus are the only Coordinators that can enter SEED mode despite millions of Coordinators? and why Yzak and Dearka can't enter SEED mode?

let's just say for billions of people, there are only four known persons that can enter SEED mode, so how many Coordinators or how many Naturals are among the four doesn't hold any statistical importance. It's just random. If you toss a coin four times and get three heads and one tail, that doesn't mean the coin is more likely to land on head than tail.
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Old 2004-11-10, 11:03   Link #42
sarcasteak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derelict
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Lacus/Cagalli weren't involved in even 1/3 of the series, Mwu was around for all of it.
Sorry to burst yours, but there's a distinctive difference between "being around the whole time" and "being the main characters' girlfriends." Mwu was the ace pilot / mentor / son of the first Coordinator / Rau's buddy, but the show obviously focused on the younger generation and the love square. To put it simply, do you see Mwu pictured with Kira and Athrun or in any OP / ED / magazine scans? Like I've said, he was a very important character, but he was not part of the main four because the producers said so.
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Old 2004-11-10, 11:07   Link #43
Derelict
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcasteak
Sorry to burst yours, but there's a distinctive difference between "being around the whole time" and "being the main characters' girlfriends." Mwu was the ace pilot / mentor / son of the first Coordinator / Rau's buddy, but the show obviously focused on the younger generation and the love square. To put it simply, do you see Mwu pictured with Kira and Athrun or in any OP / ED / magazine scans? Like I've said, he was a very important character, but he was not part of the main four because the producers said so.
By your reasoning, Fllay should have entered SEED mode as well.



P.S. She was in plenty of OP/ED scenes with Kira.
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Old 2004-11-10, 11:19   Link #44
rainz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derelict
I think your point is false, then. Kira and Athrun killing each other would not make it seem like war is pointless, you're wrong about Kira/Athrun wanting to fight, they wanted to kill each other at that point, because after losing close friends, they realized what they were fighting for; something precious to them. People like this bring war a point, they don't perpetuate the POINTLESS bloodshed that is caused by blindly slaughtering the other side, them both dying at each others hands would not be pointless, war is not pointless. Even if a small fraction of people learn and work towards a humane end to such an atrocious time, then a war had a point, if anything if you suggested that the war was pointless and SEED really did end at that point, I'd be pretty confused as to how you came to that conclusion, tragedy happens in every war, Kira and Athrun didn't want to coexist at that point, they had something they believed in and they were prepared to kill each other for it.

Do you know WHY most of the main characters were the people that want to coexist? Rau, the Blue Cosmos and Zala are people that make war pointless, Kira and Athrun dying against each other at the end would not null everything that had happened before that, the faint glimmers of hope and the ultimate sacrifice for something that wasn't pointless, they found a reason to oppose each other at last, a reason for them to personally decide to fight, not blindly kill each other because they were just on opposing sides.

All of this would have had a point and I'd still disagree with you, even if the story had ended this way.
Alright, Derelict, I give up. Can you care to tell me what the point of this whole war is, though? To fight for something precious to them? Athrun and Kira WERE precious to each other, and the one thing that changed that to hate is WAR itself. If not for war, they would not hate each other. Therefore, according to you, they gained their 'reason' to fight through war itself, which ultimately means that the actual original war itself must have a point. So can you please tell me what it is then?
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Old 2004-11-10, 11:25   Link #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derelict
By your reasoning, Fllay should have entered SEED mode as well.



P.S. She was in plenty of OP/ED scenes with Kira.
being main character or not have nothing to do with going SEED mode or not, it's just something decided by the story writer, like in the original Gundam Amuro and Char become Newtypes. You can imagine other soldiers fighting the war off-screen goes SEED mode if you want.
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Old 2004-11-10, 11:39   Link #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainz
Alright, Derelict, I give up. Can you care to tell me what the point of this whole war is, though? To fight for something precious to them? Athrun and Kira WERE precious to each other, and the one thing that changed that to hate is WAR itself. If not for war, they would not hate each other. Therefore, according to you, they gained their 'reason' to fight through war itself, which ultimately means that the actual original war itself must have a point. So can you please tell me what it is then?
War has a point, I don't believe that Kira and Athrun, even at that point hated each other.. They had each destroyed something important to each other, they both defied what they were looking to accomplish: They believed in protecting people they had grown close to, the deaths of those precious to them only drove them to a point where they were willing to discard their past ties and truly stand up for something that they were looking to do the entire time they were at odds with each other, confused as to how they would reconcile being on different sides. I believe that war fought by the righteous will teach people a lesson, will make a point to those witnessing it, those involved in it that there is a way to solve conflict without further bloodshed, the reason why they keep happening is because more people are needed to be reminded of this simple fact.

People will ask why war has happened, they will indeed wonder why so many people had to die, but then they would get back to picking up the pieces and working towards teaching their children that there is always a better way to solve conflict without a massacre, why did the war have to start? Because people believed in protecting the people close to them, ordered to be slaughtered by the pointless people that thrusts war into the people's face wishing to coexist.

The point is for people like Kira and Athrun to take to the forefront and teach those pointless people that there is more than killing people on the opposing side, teaching them there is much better reasons to stand up and oppose someone, better than just because they are different from them, origin, background, what have you.

The people that give war a point by eventually finding a way to repair those broken bonds and shattered dreams, they would certainly call themselves mistaken in the aftermath if they proposed that it was all pointless.
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Old 2004-11-10, 11:48   Link #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derelict
By your reasoning, Fllay should have entered SEED mode as well.



P.S. She was in plenty of OP/ED scenes with Kira.
By my reasoning, do you see her positioned with Kira and Athrun? ^_^;;

Sigh, I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume that by now you are just messing around, but I'll make one last attempt to clarify things for you. Yes, of course you going to see her with Kira seeing how they friggin' slept together, but she is only connected to Kira (heavily connected) but had no purpose outside of that.

I'll try to make this simple and identify the four types of characters for you: Kira, Athrun, Lacus, and Cagalli are the big four who were bonded by destiny or whatever you want to call it. Kira and Athrun should be indisputable even for you, and the girls, in addition to having significant ties to BOTH boys, came from prestigious backgrounds that allowed them to be major factors off the battlefield. Then you have the very important characters like Mwu, Rau, Andrew, Murrue, Natale, Patrick Zala, and Uzumi Atha who either played major roles and/or had great impact on the story. You have the rivals/enemies like Yzak, Deakka, and the druggie trio who got the nice mobile suits whose main purpose was to fight against whoever the 'good guy' is. And finally, you have the supporting cast where everyone else falls under, which includes Fllay and Miriallia.
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Old 2004-11-10, 11:58   Link #48
Derelict
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcasteak
By my reasoning, do you see her positioned with Kira and Athrun? ^_^;;

Sigh, I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume that by now you are just messing around, but I'll make one last attempt to clarify things for you. Yes, of course you going to see her with Kira seeing how they friggin' slept together, but she is only connected to Kira (heavily connected) but had no purpose outside of that.

I'll try to make this simple and identify the four types of characters for you: Kira, Athrun, Lacus, and Cagalli are the big four who were bonded by destiny or whatever you want to call it. Kira and Athrun should be indisputable even for you, and the girls, in addition to having significant ties to BOTH boys, came from prestigious backgrounds that allowed them to be major factors off the battlefield. Then you have the very important characters like Mwu, Rau, Andrew, Murrue, Natale, Patrick Zala, and Uzumi Atha who either played major roles and/or had great impact on the story. You have the rivals/enemies like Yzak, Deakka, and the druggie trio who got the nice mobile suits whose main purpose was to fight against whoever the 'good guy' is. And finally, you have the supporting cast where everyone else falls under, which includes Fllay and Miriallia.
Well, I suppose that Kira should have just shrugged it off when Fllay died and not sloppily gone after and killed Rau, just because she was in the supporting cast? Oh please. What next? Rau wasn't the main villian either, right? It was Yzak?

I'd like you to tell the SEED writers that a character like Fllay, which they spent exhaustive amounts of time on developing was in the 'supporting cast'. You also seem to forget that Fllay had important parents, as well. But then again, I could just laugh at you like the writers would be.
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Old 2004-11-10, 12:05   Link #49
rainz
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Let me try to summarize your point for you. "War has a point because it teaches the survivors the value of peace and tolerance."

Isn't that a paradox by itself though? If there is no war, there would be no need to teach anybody anything in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derelict
War has a point, I don't believe that Kira and Athrun, even at that point hated each other..
I strongly disagree. Just go look at how full of hatred their battle was in episode 30. It was even barbaric at certain points. They were obviously extremely angry at each other, and the only thing on their minds were revenge. Just look at how guilty they were once they realize this in subsequent episodes.
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Old 2004-11-10, 12:09   Link #50
Derelict
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Originally Posted by rainz
Let me try to summarize your point for you. "War has a point because it teaches the survivors the value of peace and tolerance."

Isn't that a paradox by itself though? If there is no war, there would be no need to teach anybody anything in the first place.



I strongly disagree. Just go look at how full of hatred their battle was in episode 30. It was even barbaric at certain points. They were obviously extremely angry at each other, and the only thing on their minds were revenge. Just look at how guilty they were once they realize this in subsequent episodes.
If you think that is a paradox, tell me.. How does one find true peace without knowing the consequences of not having it?

Well then, how could they have felt guilty if they had hated each other? Any fight is barbaric, that didn't mean that they truly despised each other.
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Old 2004-11-10, 12:11   Link #51
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As far as I see, SEED mode is just Fukuda picking up the "human evolution into Newtype" stuff that's got dumped by Tomino. I guess when he said CE is paying homage to UC and he wanted CE to become the new UC, he was quite serious

Let's just wait and see if after 3 series of GSEED Fukuda will follow suit and dump the "SEED factor to new stage of human evolution" stuff too
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Old 2004-11-10, 12:19   Link #52
Derelict
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Originally Posted by dreamless
As far as I see, SEED mode is just Fukuda picking up the "human evolution into Newtype" stuff that's got dumped by Tomino. I guess when he said CE is paying homage to UC and he wanted CE to become the new UC, he was quite serious

Let's just wait and see if after 3 series of GSEED Fukuda will follow suit and dump the "SEED factor to new stage of human evolution" stuff too
THREE?
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Old 2004-11-10, 12:34   Link #53
rainz
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Originally Posted by Derelict
If you think that is a paradox, tell me.. How does one find true peace without knowing the consequences of not having it?

Well then, how could they have felt guilty if they had hated each other? Any fight is barbaric, that didn't mean that they truly despised each other.
I have never been to war, or been involved in any particular war. However, I value peace, and would not go to war unless the choice is forced upon me. I don't need a war which needlessly kill my loved ones to teach me that. Of course, you can dispute this by saying that I have access to news that tell me the consequence of not having peace. However, I'm sure that the SEED people also has access to such thing.

I never said anything about "true peace"... you speak as if Kira and co. brought enlightenment to all people of the world. Just look at Seed DESTINY, that true peace has already been deteriorated.

As for Kira and Athrun, *sigh*, I'll let you draw your own conclusion, I guess. I prefer to view them as realistic humans who are easily confused and feel both love and hatred, rather than heroic archetypes with pure-willed determination to stick to their beliefs.
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Old 2004-11-10, 12:36   Link #54
Derelict
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Originally Posted by rainz
I have never been to war, or been involved in any particular war. However, I value peace, and would not go to war unless the choice is forced upon me. I don't need a war which needlessly kill my loved ones to teach me that. Of course, you can dispute this by saying that I have access to news that tell me the consequence of not having peace. However, I'm sure that the SEED people also has access to such thing.

I never said anything about "true peace"... you speak as if Kira and co. brought enlightenment to all people of the world. Just look at Seed DESTINY, that true peace has already been deteriorated.

As for Kira and Athrun, *sigh*, I'll let you draw your own conclusion, I guess. I prefer to view them as realistic humans who are easily confused and feel both love and hatred, rather than heroic archetypes with pure-willed determination to stick to their beliefs.
But wouldn't you admit, had you been through a war that you would value peace more than before?
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Old 2004-11-10, 14:57   Link #55
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Hm, I seem a little late to join this debate, but here it goes...

You don't think goign through war gives a greater value to peace? Ask almost any American now who was under the age of say 5 when the vietnam war was raging, if peace means something to them. Ask them if they value peace more now than before 2001. Ask anyone in the military who has seen action if they want peace more now, and see it's value more now than before they went into active combat.

Some people can appriciate peace without experiencing war, but few, if any, can appriciate it as much that way. Everything is relative to human beings, if we set war as an anchor for judgement, peace is all the more blissful.

Ok, take this simple example: When you're really hungry, you haven't eaten breakfast and lunch and woke up 14 hours ago... tell me the food you eat doesn't taste better! The hunger makes the fulfillment that much better, as war does to peace.

History can teach us only so much, without experiencing some sort of hardship, we cannot understand true joy.

I wish this weren't true, I wish utopia could exist, but it doesn't.

War is not pointless!
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Old 2004-11-10, 15:46   Link #56
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I feel we are drifting more and more away from the specific war we were talking about earlier, which is the one in SEED. So let me summarize what I think has been going on here.

I suggested that the goal of THIS war is pointless, because there are a large portion of soldiers (and civilians) on both sides that do not truly agree to such aim. Then we get the dilemma of why there is a war in the first place, and thus the original goal of the war becoming rather pointless. As far as I know, everybody seems to accept this?

Derelict then made the claim that on the other hand, the act of war in general is not pointless, because it teaches the survivors to cherish peace more than before. You might as well expand on it and state that NOTHING in this life is ever pointless, because you always learn from things that don't kill you. Since this is a general case, the debate to this claim will go on and on forever.... and I do not wish to bore the other readers on this forum anymore.

So in the end, as I said before, it appears we're talking about 2 different things altogether.
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Old 2004-11-10, 16:05   Link #57
Derelict
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainz
I feel we are drifting more and more away from the specific war we were talking about earlier, which is the one in SEED. So let me summarize what I think has been going on here.

I suggested that the goal of THIS war is pointless, because there are a large portion of soldiers (and civilians) on both sides that do not truly agree to such aim. Then we get the dilemma of why there is a war in the first place, and thus the original goal of the war becoming rather pointless. As far as I know, everybody seems to accept this?

Derelict then made the claim that on the other hand, the act of war in general is not pointless, because it teaches the survivors to cherish peace more than before. You might as well expand on it and state that NOTHING in this life is ever pointless, because you always learn from things that don't kill you. Since this is a general case, the debate to this claim will go on and on forever.... and I do not wish to bore the other readers on this forum anymore.

So in the end, as I said before, it appears we're talking about 2 different things altogether.
This discussion began with me explaining how the war that was being fought couldn't seem pointless if Kira and Athrun died, you asked for me to expand my concepts about it. Now we're talking about something completely different.

Let me tell you, the GOAL of the war in SEED wasn't established at first. It begun with the military actions of the EA, largely driven by the Blue Cosmos, then it escalated with the occurence of 'The Valentine of Blood' forcing normally passive people into the position where they witnessed a massacre and had no other choice but to stand up and defend that which is precious to them. Kira and Athrun didn't blindly fight each other, simply because they were on opposing sides, they were searching for a way to end the war without another atrocity occuring, these are the reasons why the war fought in the first half of SEED wasn't pointless.

Wars in general? I certainly believe that they aren't pointless and the bloodshed that occurs can't do much but teach the people how precious peace is, I have not watched an actual war like I did the first half of SEED, why bother to expand the argument and then insist that we're talking about completely different things?

-Edit

I'll also like to ask about your comment about soldiers and civilians, if you believe that they disagreed with each other about the goal of the war, why do you think peace was reached so quickly? Are you asserting that those soldiers/civilians did NOT want peace? This is silly. Just look at the thoughts of the actual citizens we got to see(from Heliopolis) they didn't wish for war. The people in PLANT? They saw a colony of theirs massacred, they were only looking to protect those precious to them, but they wanted peace more than anything, their hand was forced. The people of Earth? Largely the same as Heliopolis, they were being intimidated by the EA and the Blue Cosmos into fighting their dirty war for them. Where are they disagreeing? Did they decide the -goal- of this war?

Last edited by Derelict; 2004-11-10 at 16:27.
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Old 2004-11-10, 16:19   Link #58
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Yes, the point I was making was about War, in general. The war is seed is still that, a war, and therefore it holds significance.

As for specifically to Gundam SEED, I think Derelict has already pointed out the specific reasons for this war. Retaliation, revenge, the "eye for an eye," as well as the motivation of fear, fear that there is something greater than you that will replace you, jealousy, religion (though i think this is an excuse masking the aforementioned). That was the cause, and, it is a very general, common, cause of war.

Now, as for the developments within the show, there were enough deaths to show the horror of war in my opinion. Does it absolutely have to be another Eva? Does everything have to end? Why must everything be depressing?

I think it's fine for it to have a more or less "happy ending" (though it didn't end of course). It was optimistic overall rather than depressing. I don't think they always need to be pessimistic. It was far from "oh the world is perfect now." There were losses, I don't think it was unrealisitically sappy or anything...

Obviously you don't want it to be the end to everything like Eva, but as it is, it's not the opposing extreme. I like both forboding and hopeful endings. This was hopeful, and I don't think it needs to be changed to be (more) forboding.


PS: this topic is about comparing SEED to Wing, so this entire debate is off topic, we have regressed upon a regression, so I don't think your scolding has a strong foundation....
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Old 2004-11-10, 16:24   Link #59
Takemi_Ikazuchi
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SEED mode is just a visual representation one's reaching their peak.

And to me Seed is much closer to the classic UC Gundams than Wing.
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Old 2004-11-10, 17:10   Link #60
rainz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derelict
why bother to expand the argument and then insist that we're talking about completely different things?
Because the goal of a war, and the nature of war in general are two different things, that's why. I had thought that we already came to a middle-ground regarding the issue of 'the goal of the war', but apparently I'm gravely mistaken

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derelict
Let me tell you, the GOAL of the war in SEED wasn't established at first. It begun with the military actions of the EA, largely driven by the Blue Cosmos, then it escalated with the occurence of 'The Valentine of Blood' forcing normally passive people into the position where they witnessed a massacre and had no other choice but to stand up and defend that which is precious to them.
Nah, that's the CAUSE of the war. The goal of the war is to defeat the enemy. This is driven by virtuos factors like "protecting their precious ones", sure, but also by factors like fear, jealousy, pride, revenge, retaliation. My point was that none of these factors apply to Kira and Athrun's case. I'm not even going to argue anymore about the regular soldiers and civilians, since our original argument is about Kira and Athrun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Derelict
Kira and Athrun didn't blindly fight each other, simply because they were on opposing sides, they were searching for a way to end the war without another atrocity occuring, these are the reasons why the war fought in the first half of SEED wasn't pointless.
When did they ever do that? The only thing Kira ever does involving an "atrocity" is handing Lacus back to Zaft and jeopardizing the whole EA fleet. You seem to think that Kira takes all his action with the determination to end the war as harmlessly as possible. On the contrary, I think that up until he met Lacus in Zaft, Kira was just a confused (though likable) kid, stuck in over-the-top situation. Then, with Lacus's manipulation and help, he gained enough power to start his own compaign to end the war (he also became rather unrealistic as a human at that point).

Compshrink, I'm not scolding anyone at all. I know that our discussion is off-topic, but just want to try to make it valid within the argument. I'm sorry if I offend you. Also, as I said before, I don't really mind the ending of Seed. That wasn't the point. The point was Derelict saying that Kira and Athrun killing each other wouldn't render the war pointless for us viewers.

Maybe I should just stop. These debates are getting "pointless" <-- har har

As an effort to push this topic back on track, I suggest for the topic creator to watch MSG and then make comparisons. Wing and SEED aren't very compatible.
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