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Old 2004-11-10, 17:12   Link #61
Lunas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EpyonEmerald
Alright,

I just got done watching episode four, OMG- I love Gundam..Well thats not true I love gundam wing and I love gundam Seed.

Anyways, I never expect the ending when it happens.. When the ending comes I am just like WTF..That was to short, and then I wait for another week.

MOVING ON,

I have one problem with Seed vs Wing. In Wing there are TWO times someone dis-obeys a direct order while on a ship/base. One of those times is when Traize comes to destory moble dolls and the commander in the base tells the soldier to fire on him but the soldier says no, then again the soldier works for traize so I don't know if that counts.

The Second time was on Lybra I think in episode 48? When that blonde girl jumps on Zex to stop him from blowing Traize out of exitance. (Funny both are around Traize)

But in Seed/Destiny EVERYONE ALWAYS is like WAIT! Shouldn't we re-consider? These are soldiers disputing direct orders. On a ship! I forget her name but the woman captain from Seed (not the main one the one with black hair..) SHE IS ALWAYS dis-obeying orders..Wtf? I hated her so much that when she was getting shot I was laughing. How dare her question EVERY order. Anyways. In Wing this kind of thing never happend. I don't know its the only thing that bothers me about gundam other then in space when things blow up or get damaged the smoke is flying up instead of staying put since their is no gravity.
i think you would be better off compairing the orginal gundam to this with a gundam wing spice topping
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Old 2004-11-10, 18:58   Link #62
Derelict
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainz
Because the goal of a war, and the nature of war in general are two different things, that's why. I had thought that we already came to a middle-ground regarding the issue of 'the goal of the war', but apparently I'm gravely mistaken



Nah, that's the CAUSE of the war. The goal of the war is to defeat the enemy. This is driven by virtuos factors like "protecting their precious ones", sure, but also by factors like fear, jealousy, pride, revenge, retaliation. My point was that none of these factors apply to Kira and Athrun's case. I'm not even going to argue anymore about the regular soldiers and civilians, since our original argument is about Kira and Athrun.



When did they ever do that? The only thing Kira ever does involving an "atrocity" is handing Lacus back to Zaft and jeopardizing the whole EA fleet. You seem to think that Kira takes all his action with the determination to end the war as harmlessly as possible. On the contrary, I think that up until he met Lacus in Zaft, Kira was just a confused (though likable) kid, stuck in over-the-top situation. Then, with Lacus's manipulation and help, he gained enough power to start his own compaign to end the war (he also became rather unrealistic as a human at that point).

Compshrink, I'm not scolding anyone at all. I know that our discussion is off-topic, but just want to try to make it valid within the argument. I'm sorry if I offend you. Also, as I said before, I don't really mind the ending of Seed. That wasn't the point. The point was Derelict saying that Kira and Athrun killing each other wouldn't render the war pointless for us viewers.

Maybe I should just stop. These debates are getting "pointless" <-- har har

As an effort to push this topic back on track, I suggest for the topic creator to watch MSG and then make comparisons. Wing and SEED aren't very compatible.
Of course! Saving the ArchAngel repeatedly doesn't prevent any kind of atrocity. How silly of me. Let me address your actual points, as they are hard to pick apart from your filler.

Goal of war

- The goal of a murderous war is to eliminate all of your enemies, Kira and Athrun made it so they prevented this kind of a war from occuring, not only did the leader of the Blue Cosmos die, Chairman Zala as well, this prevented the supposed 'goal' of war of yours from actually reaching fruition. Protecting someone means killing your enemy? How is this? Kira and Athrun had someone die that they thought were important, this was enough for them to oppose each other, I'll make it clear that they didn't hate each other, if they did, how else would they feel guilty? Jealousy? Pride? Not at all, things that petty didn't drive them to those lengths, if they did.. It would have happened much longer before.

Assertion that Kira caused an atrocity by turning Lacus over

- First of all, keeping Lacus hostage wasn't right in anyone's mind that was on the ArchAngel, probably not even Fllay's. Secondly, Kira rescued those civilian escape shuttles that were used to escape Heliopolis, many innocents were onboard ArchAngel while he was out facing impossible odds trying to not only protect them, but his friends as well. He caused no atrocity, he did what he believed was right in every instance, not what he was ordered to. Had he really felt any emotion beyond wanting to protect his friends and innocents and to do the righteous thing, he would have killed many more people than he had.

Engaging in a debate when you will eventually call it pointless

- I can't say much to this, but happy trails.

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Old 2004-11-10, 19:35   Link #63
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lol. wow. i leave for a day and its 4 pages. eh. im tired. i dont wanna argue nemore. i got better stuff to do. its only an opinion, but. my main point was that, "i believed that the story would have been better had it ended in death of the two". from that argument, i derived that it would have made the story more focused on war being pointless. so. there. thats it.
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Old 2004-11-10, 19:53   Link #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derelict
Of course! Saving the ArchAngel repeatedly doesn't prevent any kind of atrocity. How silly of me. Let me address your actual points, as they are hard to pick apart from your filler.

Goal of war

- The goal of a murderous war is to eliminate all of your enemies, Kira and Athrun made it so they prevented this kind of a war from occuring, not only did the leader of the Blue Cosmos die, Chairman Zala as well, this prevented the supposed 'goal' of war of yours from actually reaching fruition. Protecting someone means killing your enemy? How is this? Kira and Athrun had someone die that they thought were important, this was enough for them to oppose each other, I'll make it clear that they didn't hate each other, if they did, how else would they feel guilty? Jealousy? Pride? Not at all, things that petty didn't drive them to those lengths, if they did.. It would have happened much longer before.

Assertion that Kira caused an atrocity by turning Lacus over

- First of all, keeping Lacus hostage wasn't right in anyone's mind that was on the ArchAngel, probably not even Fllay's. Secondly, Kira rescued those civilian escape shuttles that were used to escape Heliopolis, many innocents were onboard ArchAngel while he was out facing impossible odds trying to not only protect them, but his friends as well. He caused no atrocity, he did what he believed was right in every instance, not what he was ordered to. Had he really felt any emotion beyond wanting to protect his friends and innocents and to do the righteous thing, he would have killed many more people than he had.

Engaging in a debate when you will eventually call it pointless

- I can't say much to this, but happy trails.

- "Defeating an enemy" does not neccesarily mean "killing an enemy"
- I agree that Kira always does what he thinks is right. Being the good kid he is, that almost always translate to heroic actions.
- I still don't see Kira searching for an end to the war with no atrocity though. He's just a normal MS pilot at the time. What could he do?

Regarding Athrun and Kira's fight. You think they oppose each other because the other had just killed someone important to them (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm rather confused about what you're trying to say). I say they are blind temporary by anger and hate. That's the reason they felt guilty later on, when they realize what they just tried to do. Why would they feel guilty in your case anyway? After all, they both thought it through sanely before trying to kill each other, right?

I'm really really tired from this debate, and if I don't reply to your next post, it means I give up. So yeah, later.
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Old 2004-11-10, 20:24   Link #65
Derelict
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rainz
- "Defeating an enemy" does not neccesarily mean "killing an enemy"
- I agree that Kira always does what he thinks is right. Being the good kid he is, that almost always translate to heroic actions.
- I still don't see Kira searching for an end to the war with no atrocity though. He's just a normal MS pilot at the time. What could he do?

Regarding Athrun and Kira's fight. You think they oppose each other because the other had just killed someone important to them (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm rather confused about what you're trying to say). I say they are blind temporary by anger and hate. That's the reason they felt guilty later on, when they realize what they just tried to do. Why would they feel guilty in your case anyway? After all, they both thought it through sanely before trying to kill each other, right?

I'm really really tired from this debate, and if I don't reply to your next post, it means I give up. So yeah, later.
- Wouldn't it be more pointless if you just killed your enemy, rather than defeat him? I thought you were trying to argue in your favor, oh well.

- Kira was always good, though the amount of people he killed belies the fact that he was, I will add my point about him preventing atrocity here. He wasn't a normal MS pilot, just look at how he began as one, his friends near death, he chose to take control of a Gundam, a highly classified weapons project as a civilian and immediately had the responsbility of protecting another top secret weapon the ArchAngel and pursuing the stolen Gundams, preventing the destruction of Heliopolis and the rescue of the civilians that managed to escape from there, all the while going against Coordinators, he may have even had friends that died on Junius 6 with the 'Valentine of Blood'. As for him preventing atrocities, he repeatedly did so by protecting the many innocents inside of ArchAngel that were retrieved from Heliopolis, I admit during the first half you could easily overlook just how much he was doing in preventing an atrocity with the eventual destruction of the very civilian shuttle that was released from ArchAngel, but that doesn't indicate at all that it was meaningless.

- Kira and Athrun feeling guilty after their vicious clash against each other was attributed to realizing that they were probably opposing one another for the same reason, the loss of a loved one, Kira didn't even want to kill Nikol, but he did and the same with Athrun, the fact that they failed to protect someone important to them and as well faced one of their best friends, possibly eliminating another something important to them caused the guilt. More so with Athrun, who actually believed he killed Kira for a shortwhile, one of the main reasons for him joining Kira afterwards is that he realized they were both fighting to prevent a massacre, that neither of them wanted to kill anyone and for the simple fact that he no longer wished to face his best friend as an enemy, even while they were enemies their bonds were not completely shattered. They were fighting for what they thought was right, facing and having to kill each other in the heat of battle was a clear possibility, I'm sure they thought of that each and everytime before they suited up.
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Old 2004-11-11, 10:06   Link #66
srb
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Not to interrupt your little discussion, but I'd thought I'd throw this in here:

Cagalli = Natural
SEED mode = Not exclusive to Coordinators.
Source = The Gundam Explorer.

Now you know, it's a fact :P
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Old 2004-11-15, 16:00   Link #67
EpyonEmerald
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Excuse me if I may,



Okay first off, I would like to say that I love that when a post is made, people who love the series come together read the post they make a post and then it leads to another thing, It just shows how passionate everyone is, and it doesn't upset me at all that my subject was dragged behined a Hummer and shot sixteen times with Barges main cannon, and ZAFT's newly built "Genisis." However, I would like to comment on what some people said about my post.

YES! It is right that a lot of the people are not even soldiers, however. It's just not on archangle that they don't listen. The crazy three pilots who need those drugs weren't they just ITCHING to disobey but the only reason they didn't was because of the meds? The second in command woman on Archangle was brought up in the military but I don't agree with you about how that makes her want to question everything. If anything she should listen MORE! The fact of the matter is, IN REAL LIFE- if you dis-obey an order, you are punished beyond believe, in japan its death. In the United States, it is 10 years in prison AFTER you serve your time in the military. Imagine if someone was controliing a nuke (kinda like the woman controlling the archangle) and they stared it off course because they thought it was the best answer? Gun out military woman dead. For me it just lacks reality for them to disagree with orders so much. But then again if I wanted Reality I wouldn't be watching TV.
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Old 2004-11-15, 20:42   Link #68
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No actually there is a part in military code where it says a soldier is obligated to disobey an illegal/immoral order. Natarle disagreed with a lot of Murrue's controversial orders and, as seen in ep early 30's eps, Earth command agreed with Natarle that Murrue had made several errors of judgement. Natarle gets transfered (so she won't get blown up) and Murrue gets to hang around (and get blown up). As for the three crazy pilots they're hardly a good arguemnt (since they were crazy...and so was Azrael). Yes, you can be punished for disoberying an order but you can also be punished for oberying an order. It all depends on the order, it's just not as simple as you're making it out to be.
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Old 2004-11-16, 15:15   Link #69
EpyonEmerald
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No

Wrong,

While on a navy ship, all orders are to be followed without question, Yes if your asked to go rape someone as a marine its different. But when your in a ship with thousands of other peoples depending on you. A slight hesitation will get you blown away.
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Old 2004-11-16, 17:41   Link #70
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well, I think it depends on how silly and/or illogical the order is. If you are asked to fire on your own ship for no apparent reason then you can surely question this order. Murrue is obviously not suitable to be a commanding officer and makes lots of illogical orders that jeopardize the lives of the people on the ship. Actually I won't call those orders from Murrue which Natarle argues about controversial, I'd say those orders are downright silly and suicidal. Natarle is obviously much more well-trained than Murrue as a commander, and the Archangel situation is quite unique, you don't have some clueless engineers suddenly promoted to ship captains all the time, I'd say Murrue's position is more or less a titular one, since everyone on ship clearly knows about her lack of commanding abilitites.
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Old 2004-11-16, 18:38   Link #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
I'd say Murrue's position is more or less a titular one, since everyone on ship clearly knows about her lack of commanding abilitites.
Nice diction...that just made me spit out my pepsi laughing!
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Old 2004-11-16, 22:53   Link #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EpyonEmerald
Wrong,

While on a navy ship, all orders are to be followed without question, Yes if your asked to go rape someone as a marine its different. But when your in a ship with thousands of other peoples depending on you. A slight hesitation will get you blown away.
You obviously haven't seen too many submarine movies... There are rules to disobey orders and there are means for seconds in command to relieve a commander of his command if he's placing the ship/crew in unneccesary danger and unfit to command, yadda yadda... Murrue placed the Archangel in a lot of danger time and time again because she didn't think there was any "meaning" in going to Alaska without Strike. Essentially risking the crew/ship for one pilot/Gundam. Had Murrue been commanding the Archangel with a real EA crew and not the "Heliopolis Misfits", she'd have been relieved of her duty pretty damn fast.

All this is pointless anyways, we can argue real world military code and apply it to a fictional military all we want, but it was pretty clear from later eps that EA agreed with Natarle's assesment on most of those situations if not all of them. SO obviously the EA likes people like Natarle telling people like Murrue that she's screwing up.

If you ask me Zaft needed people like Natarle on their ships, somebody to double check Klueeze rather than brown nosing him the entire series...I mean nobody thinks anything wierd when he drops off Fllay in an escape pod and says something about a key to ending the war quickly...You'd think the second in command would object to that....
Second in Command: "Key to end the war?!? Maybe we ought to hold onto that..."
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Old 2004-11-17, 00:44   Link #73
EpyonEmerald
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Sanjuronord,

You are wrong again, I won't drag it out but to say that its obviously clear that we didn't know what was going on when he sent the key out of the ship. But I wasn't thinking oh wait is he a tratior because he just sent them the key? I was thinking that she had some kind of virus or whatever ect ect, Im a viewer and even I figured it out.

The kind of orders to shoot your own ship vs orders about letting a hostage go are totally different. You may think you know what your talking about but you are still wrong, game over.
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Old 2004-11-17, 11:12   Link #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EpyonEmerald
Sanjuronord,

You are wrong again, I won't drag it out but to say that its obviously clear that we didn't know what was going on when he sent the key out of the ship. But I wasn't thinking oh wait is he a tratior because he just sent them the key? I was thinking that she had some kind of virus or whatever ect ect, Im a viewer and even I figured it out.

The kind of orders to shoot your own ship vs orders about letting a hostage go are totally different. You may think you know what your talking about but you are still wrong, game over.
Hahaha its just funny when you are talking about military aspects from the least realistic Gundam of all: Gundam Wing, where there are practically no military at all because they are all MDs! They are no pilots! And the MDs exist only for the purpose of getting owned by the invincible Gundams. What kind of "war" is that?
Gundam SEED at least tries to steer back towards the actual military structure, and Murrue did mention about consequences of disobeying orders/defecting.

Enough Wing bashing, go watch more Gundams before you do your comparisons - 08MS is the right one for you who finds military orders so prescious. (Just a bit tired of Wingers)
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Old 2004-11-17, 17:19   Link #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaaaboom
Enough Wing bashing, go watch more Gundams before you do your comparisons - 08MS is the right one for you who finds military orders so prescious. (Just a bit tired of Wingers)
who isn't.........+_+

0083 is another good one *thinks about the ending*
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Old 2011-02-16, 14:40   Link #76
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One difference between the two series is that Wing shows the consequence of what happens to a friendship in war when differing views cause conflict, such as Treize and Zechs, the two were close friends like Kira and Athrun are, but unlike Kira and Athrun, Treize and Zechs never made up in the end as Treize is killed in battle against Wufei, thus makes Treize and Zechs' relationship as friends even more tragic as they could never reconcile that bond as Kira and Athrun were fortunate enough to do.
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Old 2011-02-16, 16:27   Link #77
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Here's another difference: Lacus (esp. in Destiny) is what happened if Relena went the Mary Sue route.
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Old 2011-02-16, 16:37   Link #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minayuri View Post
One difference between the two series is that Wing shows the consequence of what happens to a friendship in war when differing views cause conflict
Correction: Wing shows one possible consequence. SEED shows another possible consequence and neither is necessarily true for all possible conflicts.
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Old 2011-02-16, 18:14   Link #79
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lol, but seed and Wing have nothing in common..
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Old 2011-02-16, 19:46   Link #80
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oh dear at this thread.
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