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Old 2007-05-14, 09:04   Link #521
Hunter
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
Possible, if opening the gate is required for the operation of the technique rather than effective use of it, but, as I said before, I don't know.
Well both Gai and Kakashi stated this as fact, in fact they even said that the Lotus forcibly release the Gate(s).
That's why Sasuke knowing the Gate beforehand is irrelevant : if he executes the Lotus it will forcibly release these restraints. Which is why according to Gai it shouldn't have been possible for Sasuke to do that since his body isn't trained for this. And he did have a CS moment around that intial kick, he had it the very following moment. Sasuke obviously didn't plan on using chakra but he had no choice on the matter since the move forcibly does it.

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I don't think it is a simple kick. The quickness required for that kick, the impact point, etc, have to be well executed. In short, the execution is what is important for that taijutsu technique. And, those people referring to moves (like taijutsu) make it look like even the taijutsu part of that move is special. So, if Sasuke can do that, even without removing the limiter on the muscle, it should still be considered as something to require praise from the guys who know the technique.
Which doesn't explain at all the way Sasuke wasn't able to fight back previously. If Sasuke had the the speed and strength to strike before he started to use Lee's move, he would have beaten Yoroi just the same with one of his own usual combo. Beside he didn't just receive praise, he did something that shouldn't even be possible according to Gai.
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Old 2007-05-14, 09:41   Link #522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Well both Gai and Kakashi stated this as fact, in fact they even said that the Lotus forcibly release the Gate(s).
That's why Sasuke knowing the Gate beforehand is irrelevant : if he executes the Lotus it will forcibly release these restraints.
If that is the case (and I can't recall that being said, but I'll take your word for it until I can find otherwise), then how the hell is Lotus performed? If Lotus forcibly releases the gate, then what precipitates Lotus? It is simply the sequence of attacks? Plus, Sasuke never performed Lotus...he performed a C-Rank jutsu that was a pale imitation of Lotus...and as Sasuke didn't perform Lotus, it wouldn't have forced open his gate.
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Old 2007-05-14, 10:07   Link #523
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Hentai Guy View Post
If that is the case (and I can't recall that being said, but I'll take your word for it until I can find otherwise), then how the hell is Lotus performed?
Simply put, like Hunter explained, Lotus is the act of opening one or more gates, this allows taijutsu combos that use 100% of user's muscle power as opposed to 20%. The taijutsu combo itself isn't specifically Lotus, but needless to say, Lotus is mostly used for enhancing taijutsu.

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Plus, Sasuke never performed Lotus...he performed a C-Rank jutsu that was a pale imitation of Lotus...and as Sasuke didn't perform Lotus, it wouldn't have forced open his gate.
I'd say you're right, If Gai didn't specifically say that Sasuke performed a part of Lotus.
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Old 2007-05-14, 10:37   Link #524
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Well both Gai and Kakashi stated this as fact, in fact they even said that the Lotus forcibly release the Gate(s).
That's why Sasuke knowing the Gate beforehand is irrelevant : if he executes the Lotus it will forcibly release these restraints. Which is why according to Gai it shouldn't have been possible for Sasuke to do that since his body isn't trained for this. And he did have a CS moment around that intial kick, he had it the very following moment. Sasuke obviously didn't plan on using chakra but he had no choice on the matter since the move forcibly does it.
Sorry, I checked the chapter once again. And I still haven't see any CS moment just before or just after the initial kick. Sasuke only showed that, when he is floating in the air, which can be considered as a pretty long delay for that to take place, considering, how fast the seal reacted before.

And, for Lotus, I checked chapter 85. It says Lotus forcibly releases these restraints "using" chakra (here, lotus is used in general, both versions, including all the other gates). I guess, we can rephrase it like, to use Lotus, you open the gates to remove the restraints, and it is more like you activate the seals to perform a jutsu. Not like you say Lotus and the chakra flows and the gates open themselves. To me, it seems that you make it look like, just because Sasuke copied the initial kick, he can open the gates naturally, it doesn't say that.

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Which doesn't explain at all the way Sasuke wasn't able to fight back previously. If Sasuke had the the speed and strength to strike before he started to use Lee's move, he would have beaten Yoroi just the same with one of his own usual combo.
Consider it this way. Naruto could have also beaten Kiba with his fart earlier during his fight. But, at that time, he didn't think about that. Sasuke also was too drawn in the fight, maybe, he couldn't do anything about that. Yes, it may not look pretty logical, but, at that time, he was just a regular Joe, that is capable of mistakes.

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Beside he didn't just receive praise, he did something that shouldn't even be possible according to Gai.
Gai didn't say that, the way you mentioned. He said without grueling training it is impossible (I guess, we can consider it as Sasuke trained his body to some extent to achieve that feat). Second, Gai said, it is not a move that can be perfected that quickly even with Sharingan. So, Sharingan is not enough, alone. He finally said Sasuke reminded him Kakashi, probably because, he himself is good enough to perform like that.

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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
I'd say you're right, If Gai didn't specifically say that Sasuke performed a part of Lotus.
Considering what we have seen, the Lotus has gate opening and taijutsu kicks. So, if Sasuke performed only the special taijutsu section and forgot about the gate opening, it is possible that, the performed part might still be considered as part-Lotus, by Gai.
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Old 2007-05-14, 14:00   Link #525
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
And, for Lotus, I checked chapter 85. It says Lotus forcibly releases these restraints "using" chakra (here, lotus is used in general, both versions, including all the other gates). I guess, we can rephrase it like, to use Lotus, you open the gates to remove the restraints, and it is more like you activate the seals to perform a jutsu. Not like you say Lotus and the chakra flows and the gates open themselves. To me, it seems that you make it look like, just because Sasuke copied the initial kick, he can open the gates naturally, it doesn't say that.
IMO, trying to rephrase it like that, change the whole idea of the sentence, rather than rephrase, as it is, it makes sense:

“Lotus forcedly release these restraint using Chakra”

We know gates are restraints the body has to control the chakra that flow in the inner coils, so when the sentence said “these restraints” its talks about Gates, so let rephrase it like this:

“Lotus forcedly release the gates using Chakra”

Eg, with a sudden burst of Chakra created by the Lotus, the Gates that were once closed are released by it.
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Old 2007-05-14, 14:19   Link #526
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For Lotus, it is either performing the taijutsu opens the gates naturally, or you open the gate and perform the taijutsu.

That is why I used seal/technique example. As the simplest example, typically, you do not start walking on the water without releasing your chakra. Cause, walking on the water does not release the chakra from you. I consider the gate opening that way. And, when you apply this to Sasuke, performing the taijutsu is not a guarantee of releasing the gate. He needs to open the gate intentionally, and I doubt he ever learned that. Also, considering there is no CS interruption taking place at the time of that kick that would be caused by chakra usage, the indication towards gate opening does not seem to be a highly likely case, though, it is still possible (due to some external interference, we may not be able to see that).
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Old 2007-05-15, 00:54   Link #527
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Simply put, like Hunter explained, Lotus is the act of opening one or more gates, this allows taijutsu combos that use 100% of user's muscle power as opposed to 20%. The taijutsu combo itself isn't specifically Lotus, but needless to say, Lotus is mostly used for enhancing taijutsu.
That sounds like you're saying that Lotus is the first gate itself--in which case Lotus wouldn't forcibly remove anything because you couldn't initiate it without having the gate open in the first place. And has it been said anywhere that the moves of Lotus are not important? You can open the first gate without using Lotus (as Kakashi does)...or is bouldering a use of Lotus too?

Ok...so if a person with no gates open performs at the exact same level of Lee with the first gate open, and performs the exact same sequence of movements that Lee uses for Lotus, it's not Lotus?

Perhaps we should change the name of this thread to "Neji's whatever to Sasuke's Sharingan/Gates/CS/Kusinagi/Chidori Nagashi/Wrath while Lee looks on and cries that not only was his speed cheaply co-opted, but his only other defining move"
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Old 2007-05-15, 06:43   Link #528
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Hentai Guy View Post
That sounds like you're saying that Lotus is the first gate itself--in which case Lotus wouldn't forcibly remove anything because you couldn't initiate it without having the gate open in the first place. And has it been said anywhere that the moves of Lotus are not important? You can open the first gate without using Lotus (as Kakashi does)...or is bouldering a use of Lotus too?

Ok...so if a person with no gates open performs at the exact same level of Lee with the first gate open, and performs the exact same sequence of movements that Lee uses for Lotus, it's not Lotus?
That's not what I'm trying to say. What I'm trying to say is that Lotus seems not to be defined by an exact sequence of taijutsu combos. Look at Lee when he performs Ura Renge, it's just a random series of punches and kicks at break-neck speed. There's no specific taijutsu technique. The unifying factor in these techniques seems to be the opening of the gates themselves. A person who could perform these feats without opening the gates is just performing a taijutsu combo and not Lotus.

But fine, If you want to say that Sasuke just did a pale imitation that didn't have anything to do with Lotus despite Gai and Lee going "oooh" and "aaah" and Gai saying he had in fact copied part of Lotus it's ok.

Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2007-05-15 at 07:02.
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Old 2007-05-16, 01:24   Link #529
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
But fine, If you want to say that Sasuke just did a pale imitation that didn't have anything to do with Lotus despite Gai and Lee going "oooh" and "aaah" and Gai saying he had in fact copied part of Lotus it's ok.
If Guy said that Sasuke copied part of Lotus, then the sequence of attacks DOES matter...as otherwise he would simply be copying part of a combo that doesn't mean anything. And if Sasuke HAD opened the first gate and performed a combo (ANY combo by your definition), he wouldn't have performed part of Lotus...he would have performed Lotus in its entirety. Which is why I'm thinking that the actual combo itself is important, and why it should be able to be performed sans gate.
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Old 2007-05-16, 17:15   Link #530
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Well we all know that before the Chuunin exams Sasuske fought Rock Lee, and Lee was about to anally rape him before Guy-sensei interfered. We also know that Rock Lee and Neji constantly trained together and sparred and Lee never really got much hits on Neji. So, lets do the math. I know that sasuke is a natural and very strong for his age according to orochimaru but neji at the age of 13 or 14 did a technique that surprised his uncle wich was the forty two hit palm... In my opinion i go with neji.. hes also a prodigy and madd skilled not to mention now his palm attacks are far ranged but yea..... although sasuke is shown capable of handling his new partners with one swift summon of two snakes to stop them from fighting ... the bad thing is that we dont know what neji is completly capable of but we have caught a glimpse of sasukes newlyfound skills .. but still neji is not to be denied
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Old 2007-05-16, 18:24   Link #531
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Well we all know that before the Chuunin exams Sasuske fought Rock Lee, and Lee was about to anally rape him before Guy-sensei interfered. We also know that Rock Lee and Neji constantly trained together and sparred and Lee never really got much hits on Neji. So, lets do the math. I know that sasuke is a natural and very strong for his age according to orochimaru but neji at the age of 13 or 14 did a technique that surprised his uncle wich was the forty two hit palm... In my opinion i go with neji.. hes also a prodigy and madd skilled not to mention now his palm attacks are far ranged but yea..... although sasuke is shown capable of handling his new partners with one swift summon of two snakes to stop them from fighting ... the bad thing is that we dont know what neji is completly capable of but we have caught a glimpse of sasukes newlyfound skills .. but still neji is not to be denied
hold on....i am gonna get my glasses....
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Old 2007-05-18, 05:44   Link #532
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
Sorry, I checked the chapter once again. And I still haven't see any CS moment just before or just after the initial kick. Sasuke only showed that, when he is floating in the air, which can be considered as a pretty long delay for that to take place, considering, how fast the seal reacted before.
A long delay? It happened at best a couple of seconds after Sasuke kicked Yogoi in the air. In the Forest of Death the effect of the CS actually took way longer to happen, Sasuke used the Sharingan for a fair amount of time to observe and explain the Genjutsu the Rain nin were using before he had to stop because the CS was spreading.

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And, for Lotus, I checked chapter 85. It says Lotus forcibly releases these restraints "using" chakra (here, lotus is used in general, both versions, including all the other gates). I guess, we can rephrase it like, to use Lotus, you open the gates to remove the restraints, and it is more like you activate the seals to perform a jutsu. Not like you say Lotus and the chakra flows and the gates open themselves. To me, it seems that you make it look like, just because Sasuke copied the initial kick, he can open the gates naturally, it doesn't say that.
The restraints are the Gates.
Gai said chapter 52 that the Lotus releases the brain's limitators using chakra and Kakashi confirmed the same thing chapter 85 saying the Lotus forcibly releases them with chakra.
They are both directly saying that executing the Lotus releases the Gate(s), period.
And no I do not say Sasuke can open the Gates naturally since Sasuke bluntly admitted that it was a technique he couldn't count on : I said that since he was executing the first part of the Lotus he came to the point where his brain's limitators were released with chakra which triggered the CS which stopped the whole thing. Hence Sasuke started to release the First Gate before the CS, that was my point.
Then I speculated about how much it affected Sasuke depending of the moment the Lotus releases the 1st Gate.

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Consider it this way. Naruto could have also beaten Kiba with his fart earlier during his fight. But, at that time, he didn't think about that. Sasuke also was too drawn in the fight, maybe, he couldn't do anything about that. Yes, it may not look pretty logical, but, at that time, he was just a regular Joe, that is capable of mistakes.
It doesn't only look illogical it looks randomly off topic. What are you trying to compare here? Are you saying that Sasuke didn't realize sooner that he had the speed and strength to beat the hell out of Yugoi?
But mostly you do not adress the fact that Sasuke suddenly passed to a state where he wasn't able to deal physically with Yoroi taijutsu-wise to a state where he butchered him. This isn't a fart, this is speed and strength.

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Gai didn't say that, the way you mentioned. He said without grueling training it is impossible (I guess, we can consider it as Sasuke trained his body to some extent to achieve that feat). Second, Gai said, it is not a move that can be perfected that quickly even with Sharingan. So, Sharingan is not enough, alone. He finally said Sasuke reminded him Kakashi, probably because, he himself is good enough to perform like that.
Gai said that to perform a part of the Lotus is impossible without grueling training Sharingan or not. You have to train like hell this technique to be able to perform it. Sasuke performed part of the Lotus without training it at all. Hence Gai comparing Sasuke to Kakashi because they are both genius who can perform seemingly impossible feat.
Copying a simple kick isn't a seemingly impossible feat.

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Considering what we have seen, the Lotus has gate opening and taijutsu kicks. So, if Sasuke performed only the special taijutsu section and forgot about the gate opening, it is possible that, the performed part might still be considered as part-Lotus, by Gai.
No it is not. Gai could have said that Sasuke copied the Shadow Leaf Dance if that was the case and it wouldn't be particulary amazing because it's within Sasuke's Taijutsu ability so the Sharingan is enough for that in this case.
Gai specifically mentioned the Lotus and Lotus means Gate-induced high speed Taijutsu. Not Taijutsu with Gate if you don't forget to release them.
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Old 2007-05-18, 08:24   Link #533
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
A
The restraints are the Gates.
Gai said chapter 52 that the Lotus releases the brain's limitators using chakra and Kakashi confirmed the same thing chapter 85 saying the Lotus forcibly releases them with chakra.
Do you think it's possible that it wasn't the actual gate opening, but that the increase of chakra that affected his CS caused by attempting to do part of the lotus since the lotus releases the gates using chakra? It just seems that there is an increase of chakra before opening the gates and maybe it's this increase that affected Sasuke?
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Old 2007-05-18, 10:46   Link #534
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Yes this was my first point : the CS being released when the Lotus started to force the 1st Gate to open with chakra.
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Old 2007-05-18, 16:56   Link #535
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i just cant stand neji... he is like;

0ooooooh! im soooooooo to good for you, stop wasting my time.
Hey a ladybug! it must be faith that i met him!
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Old 2007-05-18, 17:01   Link #536
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What the hell are you talking about?
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Old 2007-05-18, 17:56   Link #537
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
A long delay? It happened at best a couple of seconds after Sasuke kicked Yogoi in the air. In the Forest of Death the effect of the CS actually took way longer to happen, Sasuke used the Sharingan for a fair amount of time to observe and explain the Genjutsu the Rain nin were using before he had to stop because the CS was spreading.
I do not consider a couple of seconds quick. And it may not be a couple of seconds, there is no telling from the manga. And, yes, at that forest, it took longer for that to happen, but, his condition had only become severe near the end of that forest part, not at the beginning of his awakening. And, the effects of cursed seal was only becoming worse, not better, so, the delay should logically be lower. How lower, that depends on your expectations. And, currently, there is no guaranteed info on that one.
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The restraints are the Gates.
Gai said chapter 52 that the Lotus releases the brain's limitators using chakra and Kakashi confirmed the same thing chapter 85 saying the Lotus forcibly releases them with chakra.
They are both directly saying that executing the Lotus releases the Gate(s), period.
Thanks for the update, but I already know that restraint is the gate. I just gave the original information, which differs from yours, in wording. As I said before, the way you say it look like, by starting the taijutsu moves, you open the gates. Sorry but I do not get that meaning from those words. For me, the person has to consciously use chakra, which would then open that gate.
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And no I do not say Sasuke can open the Gates naturally since Sasuke bluntly admitted that it was a technique he couldn't count on : I said that since he was executing the first part of the Lotus he came to the point where his brain's limitators were released with chakra which triggered the CS which stopped the whole thing. Hence Sasuke started to release the First Gate before the CS, that was my point.
Is it possible that the reason why Sasuke cannot count on that move is because his body is not completely ready for that yet? We saw at the end, he was worn out. The stress is too high for him. And, I do not get why executing the moves would trigger opening the gate. And, as long as, I interpret what Gai and Kakashi said differently, I will consider it as a conscious act.
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It doesn't only look illogical it looks randomly off topic. What are you trying to compare here? Are you saying that Sasuke didn't realize sooner that he had the speed and strength to beat the hell out of Yugoi?
But mostly you do not adress the fact that Sasuke suddenly passed to a state where he wasn't able to deal physically with Yoroi taijutsu-wise to a state where he butchered him. This isn't a fart, this is speed and strength.
I am saying, he was not aware of that move at that time. Even in taijutsu, you have to perform the right moves to make it achieve success. The way he was doing was not good. There was no "Lotus" or gate opening in the after moves following the initial kick. That is what Sasuke said. And, the moves he performed had the "strength" to beat his opponent. I thought that was pretty clear. And, any kind of surprise attack like that would have given the same damage. Didn't Kakashi say something along the lines of those were Gai's taijutsu moves?
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Gai said that to perform a part of the Lotus is impossible without grueling training Sharingan or not. You have to train like hell this technique to be able to perform it. Sasuke performed part of the Lotus without training it at all. Hence Gai comparing Sasuke to Kakashi because they are both genius who can perform seemingly impossible feat.
Copying a simple kick isn't a seemingly impossible feat.
Copying a non-typical kick like Gai's taijutsu moves is a seemingly impossible feat in the first try for an amateur. And, the way you understand training is the training for that move directly - the way it was designed by Gai, for instance. But, the way I see it is any kind training that would work for that move. So, if Sasuke's earlier trainings were sufficiently gruel to perform that move, even a little bit, then, those expressions would become meaningful, even in the way I see it.

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No it is not. Gai could have said that Sasuke copied the Shadow Leaf Dance if that was the case and it wouldn't be particulary amazing because it's within Sasuke's Taijutsu ability so the Sharingan is enough for that in this case.
Gai specifically mentioned the Lotus and Lotus means Gate-induced high speed Taijutsu. Not Taijutsu with Gate if you don't forget to release them.
The shadow leaf dance, is not a Gai taijutsu combo. I believe, the initial kick, is the target of those people's comments. So, if Sasuke can perform that combo with his own power, it would still make other people to consider him as great. Isn't this the case? Because, no one knows whether Sasuke opened a gate, and whether he has the ability to perform that move. At one time, Sasuke wasn't also expected to use powerful katon moves...
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Old 2007-05-18, 20:06   Link #538
Hunter
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Originally Posted by Sazelyt View Post
I do not consider a couple of seconds quick. And it may not be a couple of seconds, there is no telling from the manga. And, yes, at that forest, it took longer for that to happen, but, his condition had only become severe near the end of that forest part, not at the beginning of his awakening. And, the effects of cursed seal was only becoming worse, not better, so, the delay should logically be lower. How lower, that depends on your expectations. And, currently, there is no guaranteed info on that one.
After Sasuke kicked Yoroi he just had the time to say "Though from here I'm going original... It's over take this!" so yeah it happened right after the initial kick and not as you previously said "a pretty long delay for that to take place considering, how fast the seal reacted before." I also find interesting that your "how fast the seal reacted before" became "at that forest, it took longer for that to happen". Nice U-turn.
And I'm talking about near the end of the forest part, ie the time where we learned that Sasuke couldn't use chakra because it triggered the CS and where it took a way longer time to happen.

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Thanks for the update, but I already know that restraint is the gate. I just gave the original information, which differs from yours, in wording.
Since you know the restraints were the Gates what's the point to try to make sound as I was changing the sentence whereas I merely replaced restraints by Gates which is what they are?

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As I said before, the way you say it look like, by starting the taijutsu moves, you open the gates. Sorry but I do not get that meaning from those words. For me, the person has to consciously use chakra, which would then open that gate.
The way I say it?
Gai : the Lotus releases the brain's limitators [Gates] using chakra.
Kakashi : The Lotus forcibly releases the restraints [Gates] using chakra.
So maybe for you executing the Lotus doesn't release the Gate(s) but Kakashi and Gai directly disagree with you.

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Is it possible that the reason why Sasuke cannot count on that move is because his body is not completely ready for that yet? We saw at the end, he was worn out.
It's not just possible it's certain, again for the nth time I didn't say that Sasuke can use the Gates or the full Initial Lotus for that matters.

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The stress is too high for him. And, I do not get why executing the moves would trigger opening the gate. And, as long as, I interpret what Gai and Kakashi said differently, I will consider it as a conscious act.
Because that's what Kakashi and Gai both said. As long as you delude yourself saying that "The lotus forcibly releases the Gates" doesn't mean that the Lotus release the Gates you can inded consider otherwise but this isn't interpretation as it is delusion.

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I am saying, he was not aware of that move at that time. Even in taijutsu, you have to perform the right moves to make it achieve success. The way he was doing was not good. There was no "Lotus" or gate opening in the after moves following the initial kick. That is what Sasuke said. And, the moves he performed had the "strength" to beat his opponent. I thought that was pretty clear. And, any kind of surprise attack like that would have given the same damage. Didn't Kakashi say something along the lines of those were Gai's taijutsu moves?
What is pretty clear is that Sasuke was unable to fight Yoroi at all. He felt on the ground just countering Shurikens, he couldn't dodge Yoroi's attacks, he couldn't make any damage, he was shaking on the ground unable to get up.
Bluntly put he was physicaly exhausted and barely able to fight back. Then suddenly he was able to outspeed and outpower Yoroi just like that.

Sasuke was no slouch speed and Taijutsu wise even back then but at this time he didn't have any speed and strength left until he suddenly became faster than Yoroi. This isn't about the way he was doing because he wasn't able to do anything, this is a sudden obvious increase of speed. And copying a simple kick doesn't increase your speed not get you on your feet when you previously couldn't get up a second ago.


Look honestly I think I will stop here, consider I will read your answer and leave it at that.
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Old 2007-05-18, 20:57   Link #539
Sazelyt
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Join Date: Jun 2004
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
After Sasuke kicked Yoroi he just had the time to say "Though from here I'm going original... It's over take this!" so yeah it happened right after the initial kick and not as you previously said "a pretty long delay for that to take place considering, how fast the seal reacted before." I also find interesting that your "how fast the seal reacted before" became "at that forest, it took longer for that to happen". Nice U-turn.
At the end, when he wanted to use his sharingan, I think, the cursed seal reacted almost immediately. I am saying I think because that is what I remember. And, the early part that you referred to (which was also mentioned in my post) took place earlier than that, most probably, at the beginning of that fight.
Quote:
And I'm talking about near the end of the forest part, ie the time where we learned that Sasuke couldn't use chakra because it triggered the CS and where it took a way longer time to happen.
I only remember the anime, and the last time he used it took a quite short time, right? Also, do you remember Oro's comment for that fight? If I remember correctly, he was saying, the guy he was fighting sucking Sasuke's chakra, would at the end make it easier for the cursed seal to react.
Quote:
Since you know the restraints were the Gates what's the point to try to make sound as I was changing the sentence whereas I merely replaced restraints by Gates which is what they are?
Why not? I read that part, and saw yours to be different than that, and I tried to correct that.
Quote:
The way I say it?
Gai : the Lotus releases the brain's limitators [Gates] using chakra.
Kakashi : The Lotus forcibly releases the restraints [Gates] using chakra.
So maybe for you executing the Lotus doesn't release the Gate(s) but Kakashi and Gai directly disagree with you.

Because that's what Kakashi and Gai both said. As long as you delude yourself saying that "The lotus forcibly releases the Gates" doesn't mean that the Lotus release the Gates you can inded consider otherwise but this isn't interpretation as it is delusion.
Have you checked that sentence, restraint*s*. So, the other lotus version, that uses other gates, make the other gates to be also released by the technique, and without using it. No, the person releases the gate by using his chakra, consciously. Not because he starts making the taijutsu move, the gate releases itself.

If you take it that sentence, the way you see it, then explain, how Lee was releasing the gate, without using the Lotus, if the taijutsu moves are going to release the gates themselves, without the Lee to do that???

Quote:
What is pretty clear is that Sasuke was unable to fight Yoroi at all. He felt on the ground just countering Shurikens, he couldn't dodge Yoroi's attacks, he couldn't make any damage, he was shaking on the ground unable to get up.
Bluntly put he was physicaly exhausted and barely able to fight back. Then suddenly he was able to outspeed and outpower Yoroi just like that.

Sasuke was no slouch speed and Taijutsu wise even back then but at this time he didn't have any speed and strength left until he suddenly became faster than Yoroi. This isn't about the way he was doing because he wasn't able to do anything, this is a sudden obvious increase of speed. And copying a simple kick doesn't increase your speed not get you on your feet when you previously couldn't get up a second ago.
That is your interpretation. And, let me finish that, using my previous example. Just because Naruto couldn't fart earlier, does not make him incapable of farting earlier...
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Old 2007-05-23, 13:30   Link #540
MobiuS
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Sasuke was Exhausted before doing the Lion Rendan ( I think is safe to called it that instead of The partial lotus) So, the reason why Sasuke could pull this off, (eg sudden boost of power), because he was in the process of opening the 1st gate?

and refresh my memory, aren't the Gates specific controls, in specific part of the body that controls the chakra flow trough the body, and by releasing it will give a boost to the person depending on the location of the gate been released?

And what do you mean by "Nothing else sticks with what Sasuke did"
1.) Gates open MENTAL restrictions. FOrces your body to go all out regardless of potential / emminent self damage.

2.) Now we get to what Id been saying since. Sasuke all of a sudden gained stamina out of nowhere to do his combo. Nowhere does it say Gates refresh your stamina or suppy you with some. He had to get it from somewhere though. So when I said it was a plothole, I didn't mean him being able to perform the combo. He can copy taijutsu so why not. I meant him having the stamina to pull it off. Thats what was bs.
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