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Old 2012-02-16, 11:38   Link #2181
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
You forgot: That was with all the free money, technology, and support the US provided. Without those, Japan would never have risen. Of course, if the people didn't work all such stuff would have not amounted to anything, but we need to recognize both sides of the equation.
The US had to jumpstart their economy under "implied gentleman terms" - they nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which were a major urban district and port respectively post-Meiji, and that seriously damaged Japanese trade and production capabilities.

If the Americans didn't bomb the two cities, Imperial Japan would still fight to the last man. The shock-awe tactic of dropping the two atomic bombs surprised them into surrendering as their military industry and trade capability were seriously set-back, combined with the fact that alot of people died.

If US were to occupy that place without pumping large amounts of resources in to help them rebuild, just "only what we can spare post WWII, sorry", and putting MPs and shooting at any troublemakers the way the BEIC did in India or pre-Pickering Singapore, the place would have become Cambodia or a literal one-stop heroin export combined with the likes of the Sangoku period - not pretty.
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Old 2012-02-16, 12:26   Link #2182
warita
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
the place would have become Cambodia or a literal one-stop heroin export combined with the likes of the Sangoku period - not pretty.
Now, I think you give the japanese too little credit. It may be true they got a start push from the USA, but thats not all there was to their success. I think the japanese mentality is a bit unique in the asian area. Dont forget that unlike the mainland, Japan is a small mountenous island country with limited resources and as such, survival of the population was only possible thanks to strong community ties, cohesion and strict hierarchy culture.... much what we still can see in the modern society. Japanese people simply have that extremely hard working, obedient and organised mentality, which allowed them to rise above other asian nations.

Maybe Japan wouldnt be in the same place as it is now without the financial injection from the USA, but I am pretty positive it would be better of than Cambodia.
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Old 2012-02-16, 14:58   Link #2183
LeoXiao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
If the Americans didn't bomb the two cities, Imperial Japan would still fight to the last man. The shock-awe tactic of dropping the two atomic bombs surprised them into surrendering as their military industry and trade capability were seriously set-back, combined with the fact that alot of people died.
The main thing the nukes showed was that the US could literally destroy Japan from the air if it wanted to, without taking any casualties, making prolonged resistance futile. Were the Americans to stage a conventional invasion, at least the Japanese would've been able to fight back, but there were no countermeasures against nukes.
That and the fact that the Soviet forces defeated the entire Kanto army and took all of Manchuria in less than a week's time, and would soon be on their way to the Home islands if the Japanese didn't surrender to the US ASAP.
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Old 2012-02-16, 15:14   Link #2184
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by warita View Post
I think the japanese mentality is a bit unique in the asian area.
Nah, that holds as much water as the Nihonjin-Ron stuff that Japanese ultranationalists tend to fling around. The only main difference between Japan and Korea/China was that the sword always held more power in the minds of the people than the brush. That was why Perry was able to "open" Japan: The Shogunate realized the power difference and submitted. Korea, on the other hand, would fight against the "Western Barbarians" regardless of the actual military difference until actually defeated. It's a subtle but important detail that made all the difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
That and the fact that the Soviet forces defeated the entire Kanto army and took all of Manchuria in less than a week's time, and would soon be on their way to the Home islands if the Japanese didn't surrender to the US ASAP.
LeoXiao, I've said this at the other forum also, but the USSR was never a major factory in the surrender, and there was no hope for there being any successful Hokkaido landings by the Soviets short of the US also conducting a landing on Hokkaido at the same time.
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Old 2012-02-16, 22:11   Link #2185
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by monsta666 View Post
As a Brit living in the UK who happens to come from a minority ethnic background I don't know how true this is. I never experienced big problems due to racism from living in London or in smaller places like Norwich when I was practically the only person of my race in that city. Everyone seemed to treat me just fine over there. The same could also be said when I lived in Scotland. I don't know about Wales but I did have friends of my race who did live there and I did not hear anything bad happen to them living there.
I have to say I agree. While I think things were pretty bad 30 or 40 years ago, I think Britain has made a lot of strides over the last 20 years. Just turn on the TV, a significant number of television personalities (news anchors etc.) come from a minority background, and are quite visible. I've never heard someone british say anything outright racist.

The most "racist" people I've met are actually from Eastern Europe. A disturbingly high number think Jews are out to take over the world, and that black people are innately stupid.

As for Ireland, we have our own problems, though we don't really have any minorities either, other then Travellers(who are discriminated against).

Can't really say anything about Australia though.
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Old 2012-02-16, 22:45   Link #2186
andyjay729
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TV Tropes has this to say on the Irish Question: "The conventional moderate view is that the British should try and remember history more (an amazing number of Britons seem to think Britain had no input on Irish history at all and that the Irish are just 'like that'), and the Irish should try and forget more (an equally amazing number of Irish people will blame many Irish problems on the British regardless of where the actual cause or fault may lie, and in certain places there are people holding grievances dating back centuries)."

Would you say the same thing about the Japanese vis a vis Korea? I use Korea here as an example since of course Japan's annexation of Korea began place long before the war, whereas the Chinese occupation is usually associated with WWII.

PS: To any British or Irish readers, the above quotation on your history does not necessarily reflect my (American) viewpoint. However, I do think it brings up the cultural similarities between Japan and Britain.
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Old 2012-02-16, 23:11   Link #2187
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by andyjay729 View Post
Would you say the same thing about the Japanese vis a vis Korea? I use Korea here as an example since of course Japan's annexation of Korea began place long before the war, whereas the Chinese occupation is usually associated with WWII.
Not really. Japan does need to remember more, but that's a completely different area from what the trope calls for. Japan needs to remember its history more rather than letting all those ultranationalists print whitewashed histories. On the other hand Korea also needs to remember its own dark parts of history.
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Old 2012-02-16, 23:41   Link #2188
Vexx
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Basically *everyone's* history has sucky parts, everyone's family has skeletons -- what matters is whether the present day inheritors acknowledge that stuff. They shouldn't have to apologize for their ancestors but they should acknowledge their misdeeds and teach them as anti-examples.

I have ancestors who were massacred by Mormons in the Meadow Mountain Massacre, should I hate my Mormon friends? I have ancestors who made up a large gang-family of thugs, murderers, and criminals (escaping the law is what led them to Texas territory)... should I cover that up and pretend it doesn't exist? o.O sheesh...

Last edited by Vexx; 2012-02-16 at 23:53.
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Old 2012-02-17, 00:04   Link #2189
Ascaloth
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I have ancestors who made up a large gang-family of thugs, murderers, and criminals (escaping the law is what led them to Texas territory)... should I cover that up and pretend it doesn't exist? o.O sheesh...
Ah. That explains why I thought you looked like a biker leather-clad Santa Claus when you showed us a picture of yourself that one time.

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Old 2012-02-17, 02:22   Link #2190
andyjay729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Basically *everyone's* history has sucky parts, everyone's family has skeletons -- what matters is whether the present day inheritors acknowledge that stuff. They shouldn't have to apologize for their ancestors but they should acknowledge their misdeeds and teach them as anti-examples.

I have ancestors who were massacred by Mormons in the Meadow Mountain Massacre, should I hate my Mormon friends? I have ancestors who made up a large gang-family of thugs, murderers, and criminals (escaping the law is what led them to Texas territory)... should I cover that up and pretend it doesn't exist? o.O sheesh...
Of course not. However, reading that aforementioned passage made me think of British-Japanese parallels, as well as the ongoing Japanese-Korean sniping about Miku Hatsune vs. Kpop, Sea of Japan vs. East Sea, etc.

And yeah, a lot of my family wasn't much better. My grandma described some of her own relatives as "inbred, snaggletoothed, retarded, horrible-looking types who looked like they came out of God's scrap bag. When I met these people it scared me!" (She hasn't always been known for her tact, though she wrote that in a letter many years ago, and I think she's mellowed out a bit since then.) They were part of an old New England family that had been there since colonial times, but by her time they had fallen pretty far. I guess that blue blood had turned green, heh.
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Old 2012-02-17, 08:48   Link #2191
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Basically *everyone's* history has sucky parts, everyone's family has skeletons -- what matters is whether the present day inheritors acknowledge that stuff. They shouldn't have to apologize for their ancestors but they should acknowledge their misdeeds and teach them as anti-examples.

I have ancestors who were massacred by Mormons in the Meadow Mountain Massacre, should I hate my Mormon friends? I have ancestors who made up a large gang-family of thugs, murderers, and criminals (escaping the law is what led them to Texas territory)... should I cover that up and pretend it doesn't exist? o.O sheesh...
I do agree though. My ancestors on both sides either overtaxed their own Chinese people pre-Xinhai or shot/tortured Japanese and their collaborators during WWII, doesn't mean I should continue hating them all.

Descendants shouldn't carry the sins of their ancestors, because they already have enough carrying the sins of their current generation. Give them a break.

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Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
Ah. That explains why I thought you looked like a biker leather-clad Santa Claus when you showed us a picture of yourself that one time.

He could have joined the CIA-SAD if it wasn't for his wife though. Instead of finding test subjects for MKULTRA, he indirectly became a test subject himself - for the alien medtech and experimental autosuture laser systems they hoarded at Roswell.
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2012-02-17, 12:13   Link #2192
warita
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
The most "racist" people I've met are actually from Eastern Europe. A disturbingly high number think Jews are out to take over the world, and that black people are innately stupid.
That is so not true. I dont know the situation in countries such as bulgaria, former Yugoslavia or Ukraine, but in Slovakia, Czech republic and Poland there is no such a thing as antisemitismus. Quite the contrary I say.

Yeah you get the odd nazi idiots... but those exist in every country and besides antisemitismus is only an excuse for violence for these people. They do not reflect the opinion of the whole nation!!

As for rasism against black people.... I think this has more to do with the fact that there are hardly any black people or many foreigners in former soviet block countries. The problem is not rasism, it is xenophobia that has its roots in ignorance and decades of separation from the outside world. Until 20 years ago, these countries had little to no contact with exotic nationalities and people simply fear foreigners.

I think this is bound to change in the coming 10 to 20 years.
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Old 2012-02-17, 13:50   Link #2193
TinyRedLeaf
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Originally Posted by monsta666 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by djmaca View Post
Not true. As a Filipino whose father is part of the Diaspora movement in the early 1990's I'll tell you that the most racist society that walked the earth are Australians. Followed by Brits. Japan comes in at 4th. U.S. comes last.
As a Brit living in the UK who happens to come from a minority ethnic background I don't know how true this is. I never experienced big problems due to racism from living in London or in smaller places like Norwich when I was practically the only person of my race in that city. Everyone seemed to treat me just fine over there. The same could also be said when I lived in Scotland. I don't know about Wales but I did have friends of my race who did live there and I did not hear anything bad happen to them living there.
I'm Chinese and I studied in Britain between 1996 and 2000 (with a gap year between 1998 and 1999). The university campus, where I stayed for two out of three years, felt like a mini-United Nations. There were zero instances of overt racism. You do get occasional grumbling, but these were never malicious. (Some Malaysian students cooked belachan in my first year; all the Westerners in the dorm ran into the courtyard to flee the smell).

Outside of the university, though, there were at least four instances in which I encountered overt racism: 1) in the town I stayed in during my second year, a couple of drunk wankers shouted, "Go home, chink!", as my housemates (mostly Brits) and I were walking home from the pub one night; 2) in another city nearer my university, I had rented a car to take some of my things to my cousin's home in London for the summer holidays. I stopped at a red light, minding my own business, when another bunch of wankers stopped their car beside mine and started jeering at me. It was scary as I was alone, so I ignored them. Seeing that I wouldn't be riled, they eventually hurled rubbish across my windscreen and drove off.

(3) and (4) involved pubs that made it abundantly clear, without saying so explicitly, that foreigners weren't welcome (locals only).

To put it all in perspective: That's just four instances, out of nearly four years in Britain. I would prefer to have experienced none but, still, those are pretty low odds.

===========

On the flip side, being an Asian tourist in Japan exposes me to a different kind of "racism" — I don't get any special treatment! No, "Ah, he's gaijin, that's OK, his weird behaviour can be excused". A friendly old lady started chatting with me on a train in Kiso Valley, and when I told her I was a tourist, she went, "No way! You're teasing me! You look Japanese!" (Um, thank you... but I'm Chinese, really.)

Most hilarious of all: I met a friend, a gaijin living and working in the capital, for dinner. And the waitresses kept thinking I was the host. They turned to me to place the orders, when my friend spoke and understand Japanese far better than I could.

Arrghh. I'm a foreigner and a tourist, dammit. I demand to be treated with all the fawning due to me!

===========

On a more serious note, the discussion has veered very far from the original topic I brought up and answered only a few of my queries. Thanks all the same to Sumeragi, Autumn Demon and Shinji01 for some interesting insight. I'll probably check back with the writer and, hopefully, he'd deign to tell me more.
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Old 2012-02-17, 14:57   Link #2194
Vexx
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My wife speaks very little Japanese and does so with a Texas drawl.... so we figure we'll make her a t-shirt that says "Made in America" in kanji when we visit Japan so they won't think she's retarded. And we figure they'll look at her and ask the questions which I will answer. She's been told she doesn't walk or stand like a japanese either...

Not all racism is "evil" ... a lot of it is just innocent clueless bits. There's also the problem that japanese culture is drenched in protocol and gaijin make them nervous because the usual protocols may not work.
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Old 2012-02-17, 18:18   Link #2195
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by warita View Post
That is so not true. I dont know the situation in countries such as bulgaria, former Yugoslavia or Ukraine, but in Slovakia, Czech republic and Poland there is no such a thing as antisemitismus. Quite the contrary I say.
I would say it's those countries in particular (Bulgaria, Former Yugoslavia, Romania) that particularly stand out.When it comes to Poland, I think it's quite different depending on age and location, older and more rural poles are a lot more likely to be antisemitic and generally racist.

And it's not just Jews, don't forget the Roma as well, who have been systematically discriminated against for Decades, particularly in Eastern Europe (where during the communist era there was a lot of forced assimilation programmes). There aren't that many Jews in Eastern Europe to discriminate against, but there's a lot of Roma.

And finally, let's not forget the ethnic cleasing that went on in Yugoslavia, which didn't come out of nowhere. The racism is not just against easy targets like Jews and Roma, the biggest thing is racism against other neighbouring nationalities. In former Yugoslavia they all hate each other, Ukrainians and Poles are paranoid towards Russians, plenty of Russians think the Ukraine should really be in Russia, Bulgarians don't like Greeks, who themselves also don't like Turks, and it just goes on and on.

The entire region has been a powder keg of ethnic tensions for well over 100 years, and it was a primary zone of conflict for two world wars. and in both wars there was genocide and forced relocations during and directly after the war throughout the region. That sort of stuff doesn't get forgotten quickly.
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Old 2012-02-17, 18:27   Link #2196
warita
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Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
And it's not just Jews, don't forget the Roma as well, who have been systematically discriminated against for Decades, particularly in Eastern Europe (where during the communist era there was a lot of forced assimilation programmes). There aren't that many Jews in Eastern Europe to discriminate against, but there's a lot of Roma.
I will just say you dont know what you are talking about. That one sentence says it all and because you are not informed and this is an explosive subject, I will leave it at that. In fact, when I hear things like these, it makes my blood boil. I mean, I could write books about the situation and who is really being discriminated here, but I wont.

There is no marked antisemitism in CZ, PL or SK. Reason being, that people in the mentioned countries never had a problem with jews and after what the germans did during the second world war, people actually feel symphaty for the jews. Dont forget, it wasnt only the jews who were supposed to be exterminated. The entire population of CZ and PL were planned to be eradicated to make room for the german expansion and a lot of non jews ended up in concentration camps and died.
Frankly, to me it seems you dont know what you are talking about. Really. And I wont discuss this any further with a person, who pulls half truths out of his sleeve.

This is seriously deviating from the topic and I wont say another word on this. Please, dont temp me... if you wish, write me a PM and lets discuss it there, although I doubt anything will come out of this.
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Old 2012-02-17, 19:09   Link #2197
aohige
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I don't like the word antisemitism anyways.
You voice against Zionism, and criticise over its expansionalism and mono-ethnic policies, many zealots are quick to go all red in their face, call you antisemitic, nazi, racist, and all sorts of names.
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Old 2012-02-17, 22:26   Link #2198
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warita View Post
I will just say you dont know what you are talking about. That one sentence says it all and because you are not informed and this is an explosive subject, I will leave it at that. In fact, when I hear things like these, it makes my blood boil. I mean, I could write books about the situation and who is really being discriminated here, but I wont.

There is no marked antisemitism in CZ, PL or SK. Reason being, that people in the mentioned countries never had a problem with jews and after what the germans did during the second world war, people actually feel symphaty for the jews. Dont forget, it wasnt only the jews who were supposed to be exterminated. The entire population of CZ and PL were planned to be eradicated to make room for the german expansion and a lot of non jews ended up in concentration camps and died.
Frankly, to me it seems you dont know what you are talking about. Really. And I wont discuss this any further with a person, who pulls half truths out of his sleeve.

This is seriously deviating from the topic and I wont say another word on this. Please, dont temp me... if you wish, write me a PM and lets discuss it there, although I doubt anything will come out of this.
I wasn't really speaking as much about Poland, Czech or Slovakia, but I'll PM you some links.
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Old 2012-02-17, 22:30   Link #2199
Sumeragi
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Can I just say that using actions of the past to connection to supposed racism of the present, and the mistaken belief of the past are both apparent in the posts above? I mean, really, we need some more neutral sources of information.
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Old 2012-02-17, 23:02   Link #2200
djmaca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
I'm Chinese and I studied in Britain between 1996 and 2000 (with a gap year between 1998 and 1999). The university campus, where I stayed for two out of three years, felt like a mini-United Nations. There were zero instances of overt racism. You do get occasional grumbling, but these were never malicious. (Some Malaysian students cooked belachan in my first year; all the Westerners in the dorm ran into the courtyard to flee the smell).

Outside of the university, though, there were at least four instances in which I encountered overt racism: 1) in the town I stayed in during my second year, a couple of drunk wankers shouted, "Go home, chink!", as my housemates (mostly Brits) and I were walking home from the pub one night; 2) in another city nearer my university, I had rented a car to take some of my things to my cousin's home in London for the summer holidays. I stopped at a red light, minding my own business, when another bunch of wankers stopped their car beside mine and started jeering at me. It was scary as I was alone, so I ignored them. Seeing that I wouldn't be riled, they eventually hurled rubbish across my windscreen and drove off.

(3) and (4) involved pubs that made it abundantly clear, without saying so explicitly, that foreigners weren't welcome (locals only).

To put it all in perspective: That's just four instances, out of nearly four years in Britain. I would prefer to have experienced none but, still, those are pretty low odds.

===========

On the flip side, being an Asian tourist in Japan exposes me to a different kind of "racism" — I don't get any special treatment! No, "Ah, he's gaijin, that's OK, his weird behaviour can be excused". A friendly old lady started chatting with me on a train in Kiso Valley, and when I told her I was a tourist, she went, "No way! You're teasing me! You look Japanese!" (Um, thank you... but I'm Chinese, really.)

Most hilarious of all: I met a friend, a gaijin living and working in the capital, for dinner. And the waitresses kept thinking I was the host. They turned to me to place the orders, when my friend spoke and understand Japanese far better than I could.

Arrghh. I'm a foreigner and a tourist, dammit. I demand to be treated with all the fawning due to me!

===========

On a more serious note, the discussion has veered very far from the original topic I brought up and answered only a few of my queries. Thanks all the same to Sumeragi, Autumn Demon and Shinji01 for some interesting insight. I'll probably check back with the writer and, hopefully, he'd deign to tell me more.
Good for you, but then, you're a student.

The Racism my dad took stems from job problems. Most countries that time hire Filipinos due to good work ethic and our wages are a bit cheaper.

Needless to say, that didn't sit well for some locals looking for work.

Take Disneyland HK. and Tokyo: more than half of the staff are Filipino. Back then oil companies hire even Filipino engineers and electricians. Restaurants hire waiters. LOL Delivery and Courier companies hire mostly Filipino... You will not see anyone throw a delivery like you see today. Instead you will be greeted by a smile and the monotone "Delivery for....."

Yeah. We kick ass as elite mooks. That's why they hate us....
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