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Old 2013-02-05, 03:55   Link #2921
Sumeragi
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Different topic for a change:

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
All those Korean-ran "asian food" restaurants in US put them on menu as "donkatsu", but that's a bastardised spelling of Korean pronunciation mixed with the original Japanese katsu.

It's Tonkatsu, damnit.
As I said before, there's a difference between tonkatsu and donkatsu/donkkasu. It;s mainly based on how the meat is prepared and breaded. Donkatsu tends to be much thinner than tonkatsu, to the point its one of the thinnest kind of cutlets around. Furthermore, the breading is different, with the panko being much fluffier and crisper than the bread crumbs used in donkatsu. In a way, donkatsu is closer to schnitzel than tonkatsu.

As a side note, even the sauce is different. Tonkatsu is usually eaten with Worcester in a separate bowl, while donkatsu uses a tomato/beef-based sauce on the donkatsu itself.
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Old 2013-02-05, 04:01   Link #2922
Ridwan
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That reminds me, I really need to get into that Nazi-themed restaurant once I'm back in Java.
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Old 2013-02-05, 04:02   Link #2923
Kudryavka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridwan View Post
That reminds me, I really need to get into that Nazi-themed restaurant once I'm back in Java.
Oh my.

Should I ask what food they serve?
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Old 2013-02-05, 04:34   Link #2924
sa547
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridwan View Post
This thread is getting fruitier and fruitier. And it's far from the first time either.

And comparing the current case with forced-prostitution is just crazy.
Some people ought to pick up Patrick Galbraith's Idols and Celebrity in Japanese Media Culture. Not quite the best, but the closest thing to a serious scholarly treatise on the idol phenomenon and Japanese mass media in general (for example, how Japanese news organizations deal with celebrity-related incidents).
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Old 2013-02-05, 04:46   Link #2925
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I don't give a damn about personal freedom, for an occupation is an occupation. Any irresponsible person that does not accept it on the basis of "personal freedom" will never gain my respect.
How far does "Occupational Responsibility" stretch? Does one person have the right to manage the life of another? How far can a contract dictate how a person lives? Can a person's life be totally dictated by their boss, contract or occupation?

Where do we draw the line between "Occupational Responsibility" and "Exploitation"?

How would you feel if you were on the receiving end of such a contract? If it was your life that was totally controlled?
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Old 2013-02-05, 04:50   Link #2926
Sumeragi
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Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: If you cannot accept the hypocrisy of having a personal life that goes directly against the foundation of one's occupation, there is going to be no agreement. That is the core issue here, not some unrelated "exploitation" that amounts to nothing but an unintentional red herring.
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Old 2013-02-05, 05:25   Link #2927
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: If you cannot accept the hypocrisy of having a personal life that goes directly against the foundation of one's occupation, there is going to be no agreement. That is the core issue here, not some unrelated "exploitation" that amounts to nothing but an unintentional red herring.
How would you feel if your life was totally controlled by another human being? What if they used that control to your harm? Forced you to humiliate yourself? Would you feel that arrangement was just?

I wonder how you'd feel about "Occupational responsibility" if you'd ever been on the receiving end of such a contract yourself.

Employees have the responsibility to do a good job, but likewise Employers have the responsibility of ensuring their employees are healthy, happy and have good working conditions. A "no-dating" policy might seem mild to you, but it's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the control the production companies have over these Idols. These idols have long since ceased to be real people in their eyes, and are now simply products to be sold, and thrown away when they've been used up. If you say the idols are failing in their occupational responsibilities, I would say their employers and fans have failed even more.
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Old 2013-02-05, 05:27   Link #2928
Sumeragi
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Again, you're constantly bringing up irrelevant issues to the discussion. Furthermore, what evidence do you have of "the control the production companies have over these Idols" to the extent you describe? You might as well bring those out first before following the sensational trash we get these days.
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Old 2013-02-05, 05:29   Link #2929
Kudryavka
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I guess I'll ask now (not trying to get in the argument, just asking for a fact from anyone who knows for sure):

How much control do the AKB48 employers have over the girls? I know that they have the rule about no dating, but does that not only apply to their image? Would it be fine if a member had a lover, but never let the public know and kept it under cover the whole time (assuming no one blows their cover for them)? Like, if they maintained a fake image for the public, and did whatever they wanted (at least concerning going to a boyfriend or girlfriend's house), would that be fine?
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Old 2013-02-05, 05:41   Link #2930
erneiz_hyde
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Say, I'd like to ask.

In anime/manga/galge, the Japanese seems to have a mindset that experience in dating = experience in sex. And that losing your virginity asap is something to look up to. How true is this really?
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Old 2013-02-05, 05:49   Link #2931
Sumeragi
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Quite an absurd post, but I'll answer it decently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
In anime/manga/galge, the Japanese seems to have a mindset that experience in dating = experience in sex. And that losing your virginity asap is something to look up to. How true is this really?
Not really. It's more like "If you were dating seriously, wouldn't sleeping with the one you're dating be natural?" kind of mentality. Basically, if one is not just fooling around (as in not being serious about the relationship), going all the way is seen as the natural result. Obviously there is quite a hedonistic streak these days, but the basic idea is that a serious relationship could and would include sex.
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Old 2013-02-05, 05:51   Link #2932
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Again, you're constantly bringing up irrelevant issues to the discussion. Furthermore, what evidence do you have of "the control the production companies have over these Idols" to the extent you describe? You might as well bring those out first before following the sensational trash we get these days.
I can't say much about Jpop, but for Kpop there are plenty of articles about how bad it is. Like This, This, This, This, or this video documentary.

It's Kpop that's getting the attention lately, I'd be happy to hear that Jpop is better. However it doesn't seem so structurally different. For what it's worth, according to this article, AKB48's contract is probably illegal.
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Old 2013-02-05, 06:09   Link #2933
erneiz_hyde
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Quite an absurd post, but I'll answer it decently.
Hey, I was merely asking how much truth exist in there, not that I'm asserting it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Not really. It's more like "If you were dating seriously, wouldn't sleeping with the one you're dating be natural?" kind of mentality. Basically, if one is not just fooling around (as in not being serious about the relationship), going all the way is seen as the natural result. Obviously there is quite a hedonistic streak these days, but the basic idea is that a serious relationship could and would include sex.
How serious is serious then? The reason I felt that dating=sex isn't all that far from truth is that the act of dating itself can be considered a somewhat serious relationship there.

As a note, I'm asking this because I just recently read molester man and there the protagonist seems to imply that history of dating=history of sex.
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Old 2013-02-05, 06:14   Link #2934
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I can't say much about Jpop, but for Kpop there are plenty of articles about how bad it is. Like This, This, This, This, or this video documentary.
I'll be blunt: I see nothing fundamentally wrong with those contracts except they might not be socially acceptable and inefficient investing. Furthermore, while we do have the issue of having minors sign contracts, I find that the potential abuse from exploiting those of majority age when they attempt to break into the idol industry to be of greater threat.

Of course, the fact that I run myself pretty harsh might taint my views, but I have to ask this fundamental question: What industry is NOT like this, supposing things are as bad as some of the less sensational news providers say they are? The way I see it is that people are only focusing on the visible targets while ignoring the everyday abuses that happens everywhere else.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
For what it's worth, according to this article, AKB48's contract is probably illegal.
Ah yes, the social justification condition. I can't believe that a professor of constitutional and labor law can actually make the mistake of using a personal opinion and attempting to use an irrelevant court ruling to justify that personal opinion.



Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Hey, I was merely asking how much truth exist in there, not that I'm asserting it.
Nah, I didn't mean it in a negative sense. Just surprised you would bring that topic up when we're having a small tempest in the thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
How serious is serious then? The reason I felt that dating=sex isn't all that far from truth is that the act of dating itself can be considered a somewhat serious relationship there.
You've basically hit the target. Unless both parties know it's supposed to not be serious, a relationship is supposed to be serious.


Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
As a note, I'm asking this because I just recently read molester man and there the protagonist seems to imply that history of dating=history of sex.
I would need to read it before coming to any conclusions, since I don't know what kind of person the protagonist is.
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Old 2013-02-05, 06:37   Link #2935
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
I'll be blunt: I see nothing fundamentally wrong with those contracts except they might not be socially acceptable and inefficient investing. Furthermore, while we do have the issue of having minors sign contracts, I find that the potential abuse from exploiting those of majority age when they attempt to break into the idol industry to be of greater threat.
How can that be a greater threat? People of the age of majority should (in theory) have the judgement necessary to be able to discern a good contract from a bad. A person of the age 10-14 doesn't even have the level of literacy required to read the contract they're signing, let alone fully understand it's implications. Contracts made with minors should not have standing in the courts.
Quote:
Of course, the fact that I run myself pretty harsh might taint my views, but I have to ask this fundamental question: What industry is NOT like this, supposing things are as bad as some of the less sensational news providers say they are? The way I see it is that people are only focusing on the visible targets while ignoring the everyday abuses that happens everywhere else.
Put it this way, my friends(in IT) work at most 50 hours (on average) a week, almost always get a full nights sleep, get paid handsomely and are happily in relationships. Most professions do not micromanage the lives of their employees. Between 9 and 5 (figuratively) they're "owned" by the company, but outside of that they do what they like. Their private lives are their own business. The extent of control their employer has outside of work hours is simply if they do anything that might be related to their work (let's say they tried to sell company secrets).

The contracts K-Pop artists are under are some of the harshest I've ever heard of. They are quite exceptionally harsh, at least on western standards. The last time we had conditions like that was in the 19th century.

I can't speak from personal experience at the moment, as I'm unemployed, but everything I've applied to (Engineering work) have quite rigorously enforced labour and safety laws. For instance I interviewed for shift work positions, and even with that unpleasantness your hours were limited and you only had to work 3/4 12 hour days a week.

It's not just for one person to control another, as invariably they'll use that control for evil purposes. That's why we have labour laws.
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Old 2013-02-05, 06:44   Link #2936
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
How can that be a greater threat? People of the age of majority should (in theory) have the judgement necessary to be able to discern a good contract from a bad. A person of the age 10-14 doesn't even have the level of literacy required to read the contract they're signing, let alone fully understand it's implications. Contracts made with minors should not have standing in the courts.
And that's why parent's guidance and consent are necessary for those contracts to be enforceable in the first place. You seem to make it seem the minors had no advice.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
Put it this way, my friends work at most 50 hours a week, always get a full nights sleep and are happily in relationships. Most professions do not micromanage the lives of their employees. Between 9 and 5 (figuratively) they're "owned" by the company, but outside of that they do what they like. Their private lives are their own business. The extent of control their employer has outside of work hours is simply if they do anything that might be related to their work (let's say they tried to sell company secrets).
Their private life is not the business of their workplace because that private life has no bearings on work itself. Is this so difficult to understand?


Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
The contracts K-Pop artists are under are some of the harshest I've ever heard of. They are quite exceptionally harsh.
I've seen harsher, but they were on voluntary terms.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
I can't speak from personal experience at the moment, as I'm unemployed, but everything I've applied to (Engineering work) have quite rigorously enforced labour and safety laws. For instance I interviewed for shift work positions, and even with that unpleasantness your hours were limited and you only had to work 3/4 days a week.
And what does that have to do with the idol industry again? The work requirements are different.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
It's not just for one person to control another, as invariably they'll use that control for nefarious purposes. That's why we have labour laws.
It's that kind of biased suspicion that we have labor disputes in the first place.
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Old 2013-02-05, 07:38   Link #2937
DonQuigleone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
And that's why parent's guidance and consent are necessary for those contracts to be enforceable in the first place. You seem to make it seem the minors had no advice.
And many of those parents give bad advice. Many parents seek to exploit their children. That a parent consents to a contract should have no bearing on the long term viability of a contract. Parents don't always have the best interests of their children at heart.

Quote:
Their private life is not the business of their workplace because that private life has no bearings on work itself. Is this so difficult to understand?
My point is that the fact that their personal lives has bearings on their work is the problem. Their employers and their fans should mind their own business, and the law should land on the side of the idols. If the business is not sustainable with idols having control over their own personal lives, then the business should be discontinued.

Now I would agree that the agencies can stipulate what their public lives are like. But they have no right to stipulate anyone's private life, because it's private, IE by it's definition it is not their concern, no one should ever see it. If Idols are discreet but get found out by Paparazzi, it should not be the idol suffering the consequences, but the Paparazzi for intruding on the idol's privacy. It is the paparazzi destroying the product, not the idol. If an idol loses sales due to the actions of the paparazzi, then the company should sue the paparazzi for lost earnings. Whether two people visit one another is nobody's business but those two people. The fans, tabloids and production companies have to suck it up and deal with it.

Quote:
I've seen harsher, but they were on voluntary terms.
Such harsh contracts usually only come about when the employer has unreasonably strong bargaining power, in my experience. Or the person is really passionate about the job.

Quote:
And what does that have to do with the idol industry again? The work requirements are different.
They are no different. Employers of Engineers do the responsible thing and make sure their engineers are healthy and well cared for, because they are valuable to the company. Idols are the same, and should be treated accordingly. The difference, is that Engineers can walk if they don't like how they're being treated and find work elsewhere. Most idols don't have that luxury.

Quote:
It's that kind of biased suspicion that we have labor disputes in the first place.
And it's that kind of biased suspicion that keeps employers nice. Before labour laws and trade unions employers didn't give a damn about such drags on profits as "Safety". They'd work you till you died an early death, and then replace you with someone else. Get your arm caught in the mill? Not their problem! Also you can't do your job with one arm, so unfortunately you'll have to be let go, I'm sure you'll be able to feed your 5 children if you send them in your place...
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Old 2013-02-05, 07:46   Link #2938
RRW
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Guys what happens here, again?
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Old 2013-02-05, 07:48   Link #2939
Sumeragi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
And many of those parents give bad advice. Many parents seek to exploit their children. That a parent consents to a contract should have no bearing on the long term viability of a contract. Parents don't always have the best interests of their children at heart.
The same argument can be applied to everyone. The fact you make it seem everyone but the ultimate employee are all untrustworthy is not the way one should look at this issue. Either everyone is untrustworthy, or everyone is untrustworthy. Your kind of selective bias is improper.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
My point is that the fact that their personal lives has bearings on their work is the problem. Their employers and their fans should mind their own business, and the law should land on the side of the idols. If the business is not sustainable with idols having control over their own personal lives, then the business should be discontinued.

Now I would agree that the agencies can stipulate what their public lives are like. But they have no right to stipulate anyone's private life, because it's private, IE by it's definition it is not their concern, no one should ever see it. If Idols are discreet but get found out by Paparazzi, it should not be the idol suffering the consequences, but the Paparazzi for intruding on the idol's privacy. It is the paparazzi destroying the product, not the idol. If an idol loses sales due to the actions of the paparazzi, then the company should sue the paparazzi for lost earnings. Whether two people visit one another is nobody's business but those two people. The fans, tabloids and production companies have to suck it up and deal with it.
Your point is basically one of irresponsibility, pure and simple, and as such you're basically supporting a faulty reasoning to say one's private life has no bearing on one's public life or occupation. The fact you keep arguing it is very difficult to comprehend except for the individualism superiority I tend to see.
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Old 2013-02-05, 07:57   Link #2940
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
They are no different. Employers of Engineers do the responsible thing and make sure their engineers are healthy and well cared for, because they are valuable to the company. Idols are the same, and should be treated accordingly. The difference, is that Engineers can walk if they don't like how they're being treated and find work elsewhere. Most idols don't have that luxury.
This.

Not in SEA, sorry. Engineers/Technicians are all disposable assets and their health/risk compensations are total liabilities. That is why nobody wants to study engineering anymore.

We are employees, and if we are deemed "not to add value to the company", out we go.

P.S I am currently a tech working for an Asian electronics company - I risk my job day-to-day arguing with those elitist foreign expats who know little to nothing about technical work about almost anything, from work safety to PMI to work process. They ARE annoyed that a lowly technician earning one-third their wage level that knew more than they do because HR didn't tell them that this one is a uni dropout who works blue-collar. They keep me because nobody else out in the market wants to do this work. They put up a notice that is only filled in 6 months.

I love the nature of my job because the chuunibyou in me thinks that he is MacGyver, but I hate working with people who think they are better because they are from a more developed country with a higher level of education.

I guess there will come a day of enlightenment where we young-uns grow up and start to ignore and walk away from them. Experience tells me Asian businesses are like that, but there isn't any way to show respect when your boss is not as godly as hierachy or Asian work culture dictates them to be.
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