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Old 2008-08-31, 04:46   Link #781
LiberLibri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Risaa View Post
Do you think it'd be all right if I left off the department? I can't remember what department my teacher belongs to. Thanks for your help.
No problem, but write his/her name correctly and with the first name. It may happen the letter would reach another person who has the same family name. Do not forget to add "様 / sama" after the name.
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Old 2008-09-09, 11:09   Link #782
bhl88
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Are otaples rare?

Regardless of place (West or Japan) or Dimension (Real Life or Anime).

AKA Otaku couples.

Otaku husband and otaku wife

Just like Ohno and Tanaka from Genshiken.
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Old 2008-09-09, 20:54   Link #783
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Not so rare in Japan. There are plenty of "second generation" otakus there, whose parents met at Comicket in 1970-80s. And the third generation children are now under production.

For example, Kanan (Galaxy Angels) is a daughter of Yasumi Yoshizawa (Dokonjo Gaeru), and married Masakazu Oi (Himawari Yochien). The couple Yoshihiro Togashi and Naoko Takeuchi is one of the most well-known marriages of celebrities in otaku world.
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Old 2008-09-09, 21:07   Link #784
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Hmm... are there otakus with additional subcultures? Anime manga game fan + knows how to interact with other people offline + loves Harajuku fashion?

In Japan.
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Old 2008-09-09, 22:03   Link #785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
Hmm... are there otakus with additional subcultures? Anime manga game fan + knows how to interact with other people offline + loves Harajuku fashion?

In Japan.
Yeah, so many. Being an anime/manga fan is nothing special for young Japanese. Visual creators of course have deep interest in fashion trends. Some of them even design clothes (e.g., CLAMP's Kimono). However, it is also fact that a lot of caricatural otakus, who are shy, terrible at social communication and careless in their appearance, exist all over the island.

Last edited by LiberLibri; 2008-09-09 at 22:16.
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Old 2008-09-14, 07:30   Link #786
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Use of characters' names in spoken dialogue

Over in the "10 cliches" thread in the General Anime forum, the question came up as to the frequent use of characters' names in anime dialog. I thought asking the question here might result in some better answers.

Quote:
everybody's name is just repeated over and over again (WAY TOO MUCH) just to drive into your brain who is currently being focused on during the dialogue.
My response was:
I suspect that has much more to do with Japanese language and culture than anything else. Perhaps some of our native Japanese speakers can step in here? Do Japanese people speak the names of others more often than, say, English speakers? I've heard so much spoken Japanese in the past couple of years that it just seems natural to me now. I never thought of it as a conscious decision by the writers.

Since I admittedly have zero basis for this opinion on than intuition, I thought I'd ask people who actually know something about Japanese language and culture.
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Old 2008-09-14, 08:04   Link #787
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"Anata" ("you" in Japanese) sometimes sounds way too distant when talking to your friends--since, as in English, there are no verbal inflexions for person (I, you, he/she) the only way to differentiate amongst actors is to explicitly mention the subject. Saying "anata" in a casual conversation to one of your friends would make the phrase sound way rather formal and awkward, and that's why they usually make use of names (with the preferred honorific, -chan, -san, etc). Same when having a formal conversation with someone you ought to pay respect to (calling your boss "anata" would be rather weird).

It's kinda natural once you get the hang of it. You can also observe the typical tsundere character using "anta" (shortened version of "anata") instead of names in order to distance herself from her peers and sound a little more aggresive.

(Note that it's customary for the wife to call her husband "anata", though).

EDIT: I guess I should point out that this is an observation in the "I'm not an expert" category--it's merely what I understood from listening to the language.
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Last edited by WanderingKnight; 2008-09-14 at 09:45.
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Old 2008-09-14, 09:37   Link #788
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Where do you find middle price/middle quality seamstresses/tailors in Harajuku:

(Maybe around $1000-$6000 or so)
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Old 2008-09-15, 08:08   Link #789
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Over in the "10 cliches" thread in the General Anime forum, the question came up as to the frequent use of characters' names in anime dialog. I thought asking the question here might result in some better answers.
In formal occasions and speech, its better to address the person's name. And in normal speech it can also be used, as a form of politeness.

Addressing people by their names is just manners and mannerisms are important in Japanese culture.

Adding -san to their names is also politeness and to be polite to customers who you don't know their names, you address them as okyaku-san.

The -san suffix, is not really 'mr/ms/mrs', but generally a form of respect to the person's name or status.

By calling you 'You', is a little crude. Calling you by just your name is casual. Calling you with a -san suffix is polite.

Then there are higher forms of suffixes like -dono and -sama, for people with higher respectable statuses.
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Old 2008-09-15, 14:39   Link #790
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Aye, one of the first things they *fail* to teach well in JP 101 is to avoid the use of "anata". Until you get pretty good in Japanese, you're more likely to just come off as insulting.

It *can* come across as something akin to "How dare someone like YOU ..." (dripping insinuation of lesser being).
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Old 2008-09-15, 14:54   Link #791
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
Hmm... are there otakus with additional subcultures? Anime manga game fan + knows how to interact with other people offline + loves Harajuku fashion?

In Japan.
...what's an otaku?
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Old 2008-09-15, 15:25   Link #792
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Originally Posted by farren8 View Post
...what's an otaku?
The western and eastern world views the word differently.

In the west, its something similar to a 'nerd'.

In the east, or straight to Japan, it is something more dark.

Otaku originally means a home, being called an otaku means a person is always at home, he literally becomes part of the house, the general explanation.

And this person is always at home is due to several reasons:

Most common: He has an obsession of things such as anime, tv, gaming, mmorpgs and such, that keeps him at home.

Quite common: He may be anti-social and doesn't like coming out of the house to meet people.

Extreme cases: The person has psychological problems that makes him seclude himself, become anti-social and doesn't want to step out of his house or even room.

Extra reason: He is bedridden or is sick some way, a weak person.

Most of us people here are otakus for being anime obsessed, generally a large portion of the internet are otakus, people who are stuck to their computers. We are still 'alright' lol, as long as we can step out of the house, meet people have fun outside.

If you belong to the quite common or even extreme case group, you should seek help.
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Old 2008-09-15, 15:30   Link #793
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
The western and eastern world views the word differently.

In the west, its something similar to a 'nerd'.

In the east, or straight to Japan, it is something more dark.

Otaku originally means a home, being called an otaku means a person is always at home, he literally becomes part of the house, the general explanation.

And this person is always at home is due to several reasons:

Most common: He has an obsession of things such as anime, tv, gaming, mmorpgs and such, that keeps him at home.

Quite common: He may be anti-social and doesn't like coming out of the house to meet people.

Extreme cases: The person has psychological problems that makes him seclude himself, become anti-social and doesn't want to step out of his house or even room.

Extra reason: He is bedridden or is sick some way, a weak person.

Most of us people here are otakus for being anime obsessed, generally a large portion of the internet are otakus, people who are stuck to their computers. We are still 'alright' lol, as long as we can step out of the house, meet people have fun outside.

If you belong to the quite common or even extreme case group, you should seek help.
Thanks for the explanation! I suppose I should already know stuff like that since i'm japanese haha.
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Old 2008-09-15, 15:35   Link #794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei
Over in the "10 cliches" thread in the General Anime forum, the question came up as to the frequent use of characters' names in anime dialog. I thought asking the question here might result in some better answers.

My response was:
I suspect that has much more to do with Japanese language and culture than anything else. Perhaps some of our native Japanese speakers can step in here? Do Japanese people speak the names of others more often than, say, English speakers? I've heard so much spoken Japanese in the past couple of years that it just seems natural to me now. I never thought of it as a conscious decision by the writers.
I was expecting LiberLibri to have added his usually excellent input by now.

WanderingKnight and C.A. have already explained the basic mechanics of why anata/you is not normally used in formal Japanese speech — it presumes too much familiarity and therefore seems rude to Japanese sensibilities.

EDIT:
By the way, in addition to anata, the Japanese also use omae and kimi as second-person pronouns. But I've never heard either of those two pronouns used in formal Japanese. From what I gather, anata tends to be a term of endearment, omae is probably the crudest form of "you" (similar to "ya", as in "ya' know?"), while kimi appears to be the most initimate, in that I've only heard it used between elder relatives and children, boy and girl friends, or extremely close friends of the osanajimi mould.

To clarify further, most seasoned anime fans would have noticed a variety of honorifics other than the generic -san. These include the familiar -senpai and -kun, as well as the more archaic -sama and -dono that are rarely used today outside of parodies.

To add to the confusion, it's also worth paying attention to whether the character is being addressed by his last name or given name. It should be intuitively obvious that you wouldn't call someone by his given name unless you know him very well. By the same token, it would be highly unusual for a junior to address a senior by his given name, regardless of what honorific is attached.

That said, the situational context plays an important role as well. In Toshokan Sensou, for example, all the characters address each other by their last names, even between best friends. That's mainly because they are in the military, where observing decorum becomes even more of a personal habit than usual. In contrast, the girls in Lucky Star call each other by their given names almost all the time, with only one supporting character addressing Kagami by her surname (Hiiragi), apparently because she thinks it sounds much cuter.

I should add that I'm hardly an expert in the language, having not progressed beyond JLPT3, but the nuances of honorifics come naturally to me because of similar sensibilities in Chinese society. It's not difficult to understand why foreigners, especially Westerners, have a hard time grasping something so apparently obvious — they don't live with the same kind of emphasis on community harmony and hierarchy.

EDIT2:
But then again, I suspect it's not really that different. Using newspaper copy as a gauge, I notice that important personalities are seldom addressed by first names, unless they happen to be entertainment or sports celebrities, in which case they typically go without the usual Mr/Ms/Miss/Mrs/Mdm honorifics. Therefore, common sense tells me that the standards of etiquette between East and West are more similar than I make it sound.

That makes the OP's rant even more childish, unfortunately. Judging from the similarities, it really shouldn't be that hard to extrapolate Japanese etiquette as long as you know your manners, regardless which culture you're from.

Last edited by TinyRedLeaf; 2008-09-15 at 16:57. Reason: To add the variations of "you".
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Old 2008-09-15, 22:43   Link #795
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Quote:
It *can* come across as something akin to "How dare someone like YOU ..." (dripping insinuation of lesser being).
I also get that feeling... I suppose it must be because of the word's origins (anata -> ano kata -> "that person over there").
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Old 2008-09-16, 02:51   Link #796
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Kimi
An affectionate term, pretty much reserved to lovers; while some anime characters call everyone kimi, real people do not and should not do this.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...panesePronouns
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Old 2008-09-16, 05:03   Link #797
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Thank you for expectation, TRL

In old / middle Japanese, there were no pronouns in Indo-European meaning. わ / な could be regarded as the first / second person pronouns respectively, but they were not used frequently. Third person pronouns, かれ / かのじょ, are relatively modern phenomena, which appeared at earliest after 17C under influence of European languages. (It is mysterious that Chinese 他 / 她 did not come across the channel.)

Instead, Japanese people have employed either abstract title or social status of a person to indicate him / her. きみ (my lord), きさま (your nobleness), あなた (your high place), おまえ (your holy throne), etc. As time passed, most of them lost the respectful implication, especially きさま and おまえ (insulting). Today people use them casually. But using them sometimes implies mental distance; you simply don't know the addressed person's name, you forgot his / her name (since you have no interest in him / her), or you are unwilling to call him / her by the name (because of hatred, for instance). Therefore you might as well avoid them unless given any special condition.

Examples of "special condition":

- when one person speaks to many (you cannot call individually)
- lovers and spouses (to show the uniqueness of each other)
- traditional and conservative scenes: nobles, academic, military

I once wrote about the last- / first name problem there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Otaku originally means a home, being called an otaku means a person is always at home, he literally becomes part of the house, the general explanation...
I do not think so.

There are tons of surveys concerning the origin of term "otaku", and as far as I know, the first person who used the name was Akio Nakamori. He used it at Manga Burikko Vol.6 1983 (see, Eiji Otsuka, Otaku no Seishin-shi (The Mental History of "Otaku"), Kodansha:Tokyo, 2004)). Akio noticed that in nerd communities people employed "otaku" as the second person pronoun. They called each other "otaku", which was quite strange for young male speaking standard Japanese; housewives often used the term though. He analysed that the geeks did so because they were irresolutive between too polite "anata" and too rough "omae". Thus he named the introvered manias who were awkward and sensitive in human relationship as "otaku-zoku (you-thou wonderers)". The name otaku had originally little with physical "home". Otherwise, how can you explain the fact significant portion of otakus have been fascinated in outdoor hobbies (railways, cameras, etc..)
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Old 2008-09-16, 05:33   Link #798
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Originally Posted by LiberLibri View Post
I do not think so.

There are tons of surveys concerning the origin of term "otaku", and as far as I know, the first person who used the name was Akio Nakamori. He used it at Manga Burikko Vol.6 1983 (see, Eiji Otsuka, Otaku no Seishin-shi (The Mental History of "Otaku"), Kodansha:Tokyo, 2004)). Akio noticed that in nerd communities people employed "otaku" as the second person pronoun. They called each other "otaku", which was quite strange for young male speaking standard Japanese; housewives often used the term though. He analysed that the geeks did so because they were irresolutive between too polite "anata" and too rough "omae". Thus he named the introvered manias who were awkward and sensitive in human relationship as "otaku-zoku (you-thou wonderers)". The name otaku had originally little with physical "home". Otherwise, how can you explain the fact significant portion of otakus have been fascinated in outdoor hobbies (railways, cameras, etc..)
I see and read wiki for a similar result. But my version came when I read it several times over the internet that otaku are people who became part of their houses lol

And for the outdoor otaku types you've mentioned, they are still very similar to otaku who collects figures like myself lol

Railway otaku, loves to collect train models, builds entire railways into their houses. And if their not at home doing that, they would probably spend their time in trains moving up and down railway lines. They probably consider trains as another home for them.

Photo otaku, besides taking pictures, collecting cameras and lens, spend their time at home developing pictures, looking at pictures.

Even military otaku, are people who spend their time at home reading military magazines, internet for weapon specs and such. They have a wide knowledge of world weapons and powers, uniform and rank appearances but when asked to execute proper military procedures, marching commands, they cannot do so properly. They only spend their time outdoors buying magazines, tank/plane models and uniforms.

Of course these otakus also spend time outdoors at their respective conventions or galleries. A military uniform gathering is quite amazing to watch lol.
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I'm a big mecha fan, who keeps playing the SRW series.
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Old 2008-09-16, 07:38   Link #799
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Railway otaku, loves to collect train models, builds entire railways into their houses. And if their not at home doing that, they would probably spend their time in trains moving up and down railway lines. They probably consider trains as another home for them.

Photo otaku, besides taking pictures, collecting cameras and lens, spend their time at home developing pictures, looking at pictures....
Not exactly. Just read Tetsuko no Tabi then you will know what a Tetsu (railway otaku) is. A camera otaku is often a birdwatcher. Coco, the author of Kyou no Hayakawa-san and a SF otaku, is known to have great interest in taking pictures of field insects.

In general, the essence of otaku lies in the concentration and devotion one gives to something that others may think irrelevant. Yes, I admit many Hikikomoris spend their time with such otaku-like hobbies as viewing animes, reading train magazines etc. inside their homes. It is because those solitaires do not require social communication, which Hikikomoris hate so much. However, otaku in itself has nothing to do with mental inbalance.

Last edited by LiberLibri; 2008-09-16 at 07:49.
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Old 2008-11-13, 16:47   Link #800
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In social culture in the Japanese corporate world, Michiko Achilles blasted through the "iron ceiling" that blocks many Japanese women's careers when she became a director at at Aozara Bank this year, but an international survey shows her compatriots are still falling behind. Japan is ranked 98th of 130 countries in terms of gender discrimination by the World Economic Forum.

Article: http://uk.reuters.com/article/newsOn...4AC2LA20081113
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Spoiler for now you know why some anime characters have those cute cat-like thin lines for eyes:


Okay, speaking from my standpoint - she's a cutie at 52; and smart, articulate, and no-shit-taken.
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