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Old 2012-01-01, 08:28   Link #1941
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
Another thing. I heard that the Imperial family does not have last name, and have only started to adopt last name when they stepped away from Imperial family. So does it mean if someone don't have last name, it's likely that they are a member of the Sumeragi? Furthermore, Do branch family members have last name? If they do, then wouldn't it be kinda....amusing if the whole family just sit down one day, and decide what they would be known from now on in public?
There is no overarching surname, but you could say that the titles of members (Example: Prince Akishino, brother of the Crown Prince) serve a sort of surname function, with his daughters and son being considered of Akishino. Concerning members who are no longer of the Imperial family: Normally it was the Tenno who would bestow a surname. In modern times, however, the title was used as the surname (example: the head of Fushimi-no-miya , Fushimi-no-miya Hiroaki, changed his name to Fushimi Hiroaki in 1947).

Now, the case of the Sumeragis was that their surname was bestowed upon them by the Tenno. Given the various times the surname was given out, it's hard to track down how all of them are related in what way to the original Imperial family. It's pretty much that the existence of the surname itself is the only remaining evidence for most people, unless there are more concrete records.
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Old 2012-01-01, 09:15   Link #1942
Tri-ring
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Originally Posted by MakubeX2 View Post
Are you getting all xenophobic ?

In that case, I'll like to remind you that it's the natural turn of things in the greater scheme. Trend comes and goes all the time, J-Pop and all it's associated culture was all the rage during the 90s and K-Pop was just picking up where it left off.

Who knows if things can maintain the way it is now after another decade or so, but the answer is most likely no. Another trend will definately replace the K-Pop fever in the future.
Xenophobic?
Nope, just writing the truth as I see it.
To my eyes K-pop and Hanryu(have you heard of Trendy drama?) is basically a copy of what was happening in the 80's and 90's in Japan, South Korea is basically doing catch up.
I'll even bet that they will focus on street performers (or youtube performers with a twist) sometime in the near future.
Nothing really to bash an eyebrow about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Super Monkey's



In essence all music groups are the same

But really, when you look at things deeply, there's just too wide a gap between the average talent level between Japanese and Korean groups. J-Pop has always felt very superficial with only the occasional great ones, while with K-Pop (and I only started following it for like 3 years ago) has that genuine touch. Even if the method is the same (which I can't really agree with), the underlying foundation of K-Pop is far more sturdy than the usual J-Pop.
Underlying foundation of K-pop being more sturdy than Japan?
Don't make me laugh, the Korean system is basically a carbon copy of Japanese idol training schools of Japanese talent productions of Hori pro and others.
The difference is Japanese talent production only focused on the Japanese market since in the early 80's the Asian market was too small to take into account and the Western market was not ready for those petri dish idols.
If you listen to the K-Pop music scientifically they all rely on a single equation which is really cheap which was same as the Japanese idols. The difference is that Japan had a collection of various real life artist that didn't follow that equation.
Take a really hard look at the music scene of Japan and the large range of variety as early as the 70's taking in some from the western music scene, jazz, blue grass, punk, rock, and many other genre bashing it up together to make it their own.
How about Yamashita Tatsuro, Kome Kome Club, Southern All Stars, Kubota Toshiyuki, Begin,etc.
Korea had barely scratch the surface of real talent and as long as they follow the Japanese equation they are going to be shallow as the top ten music programs that was aired in Japan in the 70's and 80's.
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Old 2012-01-01, 10:02   Link #1943
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First, haven't you pretty much expanded definition of J-Pop to include pretty much most of the Japanese music industry from the past 30 years? Given that what we consider J-Pop is centered on the past 10 years and limited to pop, I don't really see how your argument has much merit when we could also go into Korea's music past and come up with the same kind of genre mashing (admittedly, the breakout started in 1992 with Seo Tai-ji & Boys).

Second, certainly you don't know about the Hongdae area, the Korean center of indie music which serves as the other to the mass industrial production which you consider to be a carbon copy of the idol production? Exactly why do you think the entire Korean music industry will be the same when there are vibrant alternatives?

Third, we've been focusing on why K-Pop has more international appeal to J-Pop. We can argue all day about whether some music is shallow, copied, etc, but that ultimately isn't the main topic: rather, we're focusing on why it's difficult to find such a wide appeal of J-Pop on the world stage

Fourth, scientifically? Just when has science had any say in defining the popularity of a certain kind of entertainment genre?

Basically, you're looking only at a few glimpses of the Korean music industry and slapping on the same label of the international failure that was the J-Pop industry with its insular view of the music scene and its relatively laid back stance to the entire thing.
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Old 2012-01-01, 11:38   Link #1944
ChainLegacy
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
One thing that I did notice about the difference between Korean and Japanese megagroups is the talent at the individual level. I may be biased, but having personally met SNSD, I can see that almost every single member could do well on her own. It's also what seems to be the trend with girl groups in general, with most members of a former major girl group having a post-group musical career.

On the other hand, you don't see the same level of success with former members of Japanese girl groups after they leave the group. My feeling has always been that Japanese mega groups tend to mask the relatively low talent on the individual level.
To add my opinion, you can't mask a complete lack of talent. They're all terrible, just like the major American girl pop musicians like Lady Gaga and Kesha.

Japanese jazz, guys like Tetsuo Sakurai, those are real musicians. And of course Japanese traditional music is epic.

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Old 2012-01-01, 11:47   Link #1945
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Originally Posted by ChainLegacy View Post
Japanese jazz, guys like Tetsuo Sakurai, those are real musicians. And of course Japanese traditional music is epic.
Of course they're epic, they're not J-Pop (the closed version)
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Old 2012-01-01, 14:12   Link #1946
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Indeed. In a few other countries Patrynomics were the origin of most names, IE Son of X. This is most obvious in Scandinavia (Anderson -> Ander's Son), and the patrynomic system is still in actual use in Iceland (where everyone's last name is based on that of their father, if your father was Erik, you would be Eriksson if you're a man, or Eriksdottir if a woman.

In Ireland it's similiar, almost all names are "son of" or "Grandson of", with the name usually being an actual name (O'Brian) or a epithet or nickname, my own name Quigley, coming from O'Choighligh, or Grandson of Flaxen Hair (a nickname meaning messy hair). I have a friend who is "McHugh" which of course means son of Hugh.

Similiar systems can also be found to a lesser extent in other parts of Europe, like Russia.

As for Idols in Japan, Korea, I think Korean Idols are largely based on the Japanese Idol industry, but have achieved greater success in the last few years. Though it's strange that SNSD is basically unknown in Ireland or Britain. I think the relationship between Korea and Japan, in this respect, is similiar to the relationship between Ireland and Britain. Britain created the template for Pop Idols in the isles, but several Irish acts have used that template to great success, most famously Boyzone and Westlife.

If you compare AKB48 and SNSD, AKB48's appeal is largely based on Japanese ideas of "Cuteness". SNSD is has a much more overt sex appeal. You can also say that when it comes to dance choreography SNSD is much more proficient, but I'd say the part of AKB48's appeal is taken from the fact that they're not seen as super proficient at dancing, similiar to how Moe girls are rarely super skilled at anything. Basically they're more friendly girl next door types.

However, that taste for cuteness is fairly restricted to Japan. Sexiness, on the other hand, sells everywhere.
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Old 2012-01-01, 23:50   Link #1947
Shinji01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
I saw the category for this award but didn't stay to see who got it.

And yes.
AKB 48 are a idol group of 48 girls split into three teams of A, K and B.
Actually, AKB48 has two ways of interpretation when It comes to number of members.
1) 48 members of team A, K,B and the trainees.
2) the while franchise of the project including all girls in SKE48, NMB48 and JKT48.
Therefore in the NHK end of year music program, the number of girls performing on stage was 210.

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Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
saving space…
I experienced the quake in Tokyo too, but it was nothing.
Unless its over M 8 again, or has a tsunami, an earthquake is just an earthquake.
Also, after 3.11 thee have been so many earthquakes that we just simply have to ignore them now.
Even at work, if you left your seat and ran for safety of hid under you desk, I am sure your colleagues will say you are over reacting.
I have seen many cases in 2011 when the building is shaking quite badly but people are talking to clients on their phones and not even mention the shaking going on.

I think this ability to adapt to the situation is what makes the Japanese so good at recovering from disasters, rather than have a pity party/ panic attack every time something similar recurs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
If you compare AKB48 and SNSD, AKB48's appeal is largely based on Japanese ideas of "Cuteness". SNSD is has a much more overt sex appeal. You can also say that when it comes to dance choreography SNSD is much more proficient, but I'd say the part of AKB48's appeal is taken from the fact that they're not seen as super proficient at dancing, similiar to how Moe girls are rarely super skilled at anything. Basically they're more friendly girl next door types.

However, that taste for cuteness is fairly restricted to Japan. Sexiness, on the other hand, sells everywhere.
I think you summed it up so well here!

As Akimoto said, AKB was meant to be an idol of can go and see in Akihabara.
They did not need to be super cute at all, or be a good sing or dancer.
So the amatuer existence that they are now is pretty much spot on.
Where as Speed, supermonkeys AAA and johnnys group are meant to be professional and are trained and paid properly for it.

I read a Japanese article somewhere that said, AKB, Momo Kuro, and original morning musume were all idols, but became something else as they attained their current status and fame.
However, by replacing all members with new, amatuer girls, morning musume today has successfully returned to their roots.

I think what the author here was trying to say is the idols are meant t be the girl next door, and you want to cheer them on because they a so imperfect.


****AKB48 alone has 59 members as of today.

Last edited by Shinji01; 2012-01-02 at 00:14.
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Old 2012-01-02, 00:03   Link #1948
risingstar3110
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On the same topic, what do idols do when they grow old and... well lose their sex appeal? Especially the Japanese and Korean ones since we are talking about them

I means singer can either try to catch up with the trend or lurk away and go oversea for ceremony performance from time to time. Actor can go on forever if they take the opportunities well.
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Old 2012-01-02, 00:20   Link #1949
MakubeX2
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Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
On the same topic, what do idols do when they grow old and... well lose their sex appeal? Especially the Japanese and Korean ones since we are talking about them.
If they can make it big in the entertainment world, I'm sure they are shrewd enough to chalk up some big savings, interpersonal connections as well as investments somewhere when they can have a secured future. One does not survive long in the entertain industry without some brains, especially Korean ones.
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Old 2012-01-02, 00:43   Link #1950
Shinji01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
On the same topic, what do idols do when they grow old and... well lose their sex appeal? Especially the Japanese and Korean ones since we are talking about them

I means singer can either try to catch up with the trend or lurk away and go oversea for ceremony performance from time to time. Actor can go on forever if they take the opportunities well.
Tis is hard to say. For the girls, if you look at morning musume, they all left the group around 22, 27 being the latest. 22 is probably the key number here because normally people graduate from college and find jobs around this age.

This is probably because most idols are expected to be adolescents looking for a proper career whether it be a singer, actor etc.
Those who can not make this transition a the ones that disappear/ lose their appeal.

As for AKB, apart from the few that left on their own terms already, the current main members are already 20 to 25 years old, meaning in the next few year we can expect th em to leave the group.
One of the key events may be for them to perform at Tokyo Dome, and this may happen summer 2012.

Another reason is, due to them having to keep their business owing. Due to their CD selling system, (buy a cd to place one vote for your favorite girl) they need competition within the group. The current members are pretty much set in their ranking and popularity, making it difficult to motivate the fans to purchase their CDs.
in order to avoid this, they need to change the members and reheat the competition.

AKB is the anomaly in the idol world in many ways, but most probably due to the business scheme attached to them. I am not a huge fa, but I hope the girls land n their feet Presley when Akimoto pulls the plug on them.

For men, however, Johnny's has made it possible for 40 year olds to stay together as an idol group and still function together.
Maybe this is because men tend to mature and become more appealing to both the fans and people in the industry, whereas women are only appreciated for their youth.
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Old 2012-01-02, 07:54   Link #1951
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South Korea's K-pop culture growing in Japan

Apropos of this discussion, I happened to see this piece on the BBC this morning. Has the arrival of K-Pop improved the image of Koreans in Japan? Do young Japanese (and Koreans) care about the events of the first half of the twentieth century, or is that all now simply ancient history?
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Old 2012-01-02, 08:03   Link #1952
Flower
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.... And of course Japanese traditional music is epic.

Wow ... beautiful!
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Old 2012-01-02, 10:04   Link #1953
DonQuigleone
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Originally Posted by Shinji01 View Post

I think what the author here was trying to say is the idols are meant t be the girl next door, and you want to cheer them on because they a so imperfect.
Exactly it, of course, that doesn't sell quite as well as the more glossy K-Pop. In the case of AKB (and their brethren), they depend on an identification with their fans, which is reinforced by the fact their fans can see them live almost any day of the year. That doesn't work quite so well if you're living outside Japan. K-Pop doesn't demand that level of commitment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
On the same topic, what do idols do when they grow old and... well lose their sex appeal? Especially the Japanese and Korean ones since we are talking about them

I means singer can either try to catch up with the trend or lurk away and go oversea for ceremony performance from time to time. Actor can go on forever if they take the opportunities well.
I think most of them just fade into obscurity. If they're really lucky they shift into acting or a more mature music career. I'd say most end out just getting married (and until recently in Japan that often meant giving up your job)and having a normal middle class life.

Look at Mari Ijima of Macross fame, she actually does have a singing career, but superstar she ain't.

But also spare a thought for the hundreds of Idol wannabes who never get famous. What happens to them? It's a brutal business. There's probably 100 failures for every success.
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Old 2012-01-03, 02:57   Link #1954
Shinji01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
South Korea's K-pop culture growing in Japan

Apropos of this discussion, I happened to see this piece on the BBC this morning. Has the arrival of K-Pop improved the image of Koreans in Japan? Do young Japanese (and Koreans) care about the events of the first half of the twentieth century, or is that all now simply ancient history?
First of all, I think the image of Koreans have been improving a lot since the Winter Sonata took the housewives by storm.

The recent KPOP has been a intesting trend because it seems to be actually feeding off the girl idol group trend restarted by AKB.

regards to their popularity though, it's a little hard to say because of several points.
1) we don't really understand what they are singing even though they are singing in Japanese and have really out a lot of effort into mastering the language.
I think this is one of those problems that never go away...

2) many Korean groups are so obviously over done with plastic surgery, and many Japanese find that hard to accept.
Sure, many AKB have had minor tweaks too, but not as obvious.
This also can be seen in the fact the Itano Tomomi is always ranked 7th or 8th in AKB.

3) some people feel that the trend is only created by the media and not really happening in real life.
This is still a controversial topic, but there was an incident where thousands of people went and demonstrated in front of Fiji television saying that they were forcing Korean television on to the japanese, despite many of them not really being interested in it.
It's hard to pin point how this happened, but most probably because we still do care about what happened in the past.
Every since the demos happened, you can see in online forums where people make racist comments about the Koreans and how they keep trying to make business off of the Japanese.
It has come to an extent where people are not buying Korean products, and canceling SoftBank phone accounts. (SoftBank is owned by a Japanese korean CEO)

I personally have nothing against the Koreans.
I think their KPOP is cute, and if that boosts the total level of Asian entrainment, then that is beneficial for all of us.

Whenever something new is entering the market, of course there will be a bunch of people who love it, and a bunch of people who hate it, and it may just be more prominent because of the history between the two countries.
But the lack of any conflict usually means a lack of presence, not acceptance, especially for Japan.
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Old 2012-01-03, 06:09   Link #1955
Tom Bombadil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
South Korea's K-pop culture growing in Japan

Apropos of this discussion, I happened to see this piece on the BBC this morning. Has the arrival of K-Pop improved the image of Koreans in Japan? Do young Japanese (and Koreans) care about the events of the first half of the twentieth century, or is that all now simply ancient history?
I doubt it is all ancient history considering the recent statue of comfort woman in front of the Japanese embassy in Seoul. But I guess it is true everywhere that young people cares more about fashion and trend than history, politics, etc.

But it is no exaggeration that the "Korean Wave" has taken over whole East Asia and South East Asia. Like Shinji-kun has remarked, in a way, the occasional backlash attests to their popularity.
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Old 2012-01-03, 06:10   Link #1956
Tri-ring
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji01 View Post
First of all, I think the image of Koreans have been improving a lot since the Winter Sonata took the housewives by storm.

The recent KPOP has been a intesting trend because it seems to be actually feeding off the girl idol group trend restarted by AKB.

regards to their popularity though, it's a little hard to say because of several points.
1) we don't really understand what they are singing even though they are singing in Japanese and have really out a lot of effort into mastering the language.
I think this is one of those problems that never go away...

2) many Korean groups are so obviously over done with plastic surgery, and many Japanese find that hard to accept.
Sure, many AKB have had minor tweaks too, but not as obvious.
This also can be seen in the fact the Itano Tomomi is always ranked 7th or 8th in AKB.

3) some people feel that the trend is only created by the media and not really happening in real life.
This is still a controversial topic, but there was an incident where thousands of people went and demonstrated in front of Fiji television saying that they were forcing Korean television on to the japanese, despite many of them not really being interested in it.
It's hard to pin point how this happened, but most probably because we still do care about what happened in the past.
Every since the demos happened, you can see in online forums where people make racist comments about the Koreans and how they keep trying to make business off of the Japanese.
It has come to an extent where people are not buying Korean products, and canceling SoftBank phone accounts. (SoftBank is owned by a Japanese korean CEO)

I personally have nothing against the Koreans.
I think their KPOP is cute, and if that boosts the total level of Asian entrainment, then that is beneficial for all of us.

Whenever something new is entering the market, of course there will be a bunch of people who love it, and a bunch of people who hate it, and it may just be more prominent because of the history between the two countries.
But the lack of any conflict usually means a lack of presence, not acceptance, especially for Japan.
One of Fuji TV's subsidiaries Fuji Pacific Music Inc owns most of the publishing rights to K-Pop sold here in Japan. That is why Fuji is so damn eager in promoting K-Pop. In essence they are rehashing the Onyako Club promotion strategy.
As for K-Pop music, like I said before if you scrutinize and break down their music in academically you'll find a formula in which they consists mostly of catchy sound bites that are repeated over and over making the lyrics limited not having any meaning in depth. They also tend to place the "hook" of the song in the front to gain immediate impact from the listeners.
This method is used to sell CDs where you can only listen to 15~20 seconds of the song as a sample online.

Both methods are not limited to K-Pop but K-Pop rely on it too heavily with all their idols giving it an overall shallow impression coming from the same mold.
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Old 2012-01-03, 07:37   Link #1957
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Sometimes I wonder why people think they can "academically" scrutinize and break down music to come to some absolute conclusion.
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Old 2012-01-03, 07:52   Link #1958
Tom Bombadil
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Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Sometimes I wonder why people think they can "academically" scrutinize and break down music to come to some absolute conclusion.
Maybe not so much different from the fact that no two snow flakes are identical although the underlying physics principle is the same.
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Old 2012-01-03, 09:22   Link #1959
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil View Post
Maybe not so much different from the fact that no two snow flakes are identical although the underlying physics principle is the same.
That works if he was talking about the industry, but with music? I have a feeling he hasn't been listening much to K-Pop and realizing that it is just as diverse, if not more, than lesser J-Pop.
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Old 2012-01-03, 10:08   Link #1960
MakubeX2
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Originally Posted by Shinji01 View Post
regards to their popularity though, it's a little hard to say because of several points.
1) we don't really understand what they are singing even though they are singing in Japanese and have really out a lot of effort into mastering the language.
I think this is one of those problems that never go away...
It's the same case with the J-Pop rage in the 90s, now you have the taste of your own medicine.

Quote:
3) some people feel that the trend is only created by the media and not really happening in real life.
This is still a controversial topic, but there was an incident where thousands of people went and demonstrated in front of Fiji television saying that they were forcing Korean television on to the japanese, despite many of them not really being interested in it.
Human nature at work here. If you don't like it, ignore it. Just be aware of it.


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Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil View Post
But it is no exaggeration that the "Korean Wave" has taken over whole East Asia and South East Asia.
Not just Asia, a part of Europe as well. Namely France, Portugal and Germany. They are going to venture into parts of America as well, from what I gathered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
That works if he was talking about the industry, but with music? I have a feeling he hasn't been listening much to K-Pop and realizing that it is just as diverse, if not more, than lesser J-Pop.
The only thing I don't understand is why is he so keen on proving his theory about K-Pop being a spawn of J-Pop correct when he says he doesn't care about it at all in an earlier posting. It's like saying he wants the world to know Japan paves the way for the Korean fever today. So all credits should be given to Japan, not Korea.

For me, I don't really care about the Korean fever that much. But since I'm working in a company who capitalised on the K-fever via both legit and self-made bootleg K-idol product, as long as the fever brings in the dough, lined the boss's pocket and in turn my own, I say let the fever stay.
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