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Old 2004-11-25, 23:15   Link #21
dreamless
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Takayuki is indecisive right off the bat, Mitsuki decided for him to date Haruka, Haruka decided for him to go for college. This guy is afraid of taking responsibilities and doesn't make any single decision from the start to the end.

Shinji is not afraid of taking responsibilities and he's quite out-spoken with his feelings, that's the right way to go, speak out your feelings and take responsibilities. Shinji is leagues better that that hypocrite lame wuss Takayuki
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Old 2004-11-26, 00:35   Link #22
kujoe
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Takayuki, a hypocrite? An indecisive arse for the most part, but a hypocrite? (He seems to be less of an indecisive guy in the fan disc, though I can't really comment on that one.)

In defense of the bastard, I would say that he did make a decision--although it was Haruka in the end who sealed it for him. If you missed this in the second to the last episode, then I can't help you.

Actually, Shinji was sort of a hypocrite, (I'm not sure if it's the right word..) and it's even worse to a certain extent since he doesn't really face that truth.

But I'm not going there.
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Old 2004-11-26, 01:24   Link #23
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he did not make any decision, you could say that he made a poor attempt at making a decision, but the moment he saw Haruka, he changed his mind, yup, he just couldn't "hurt Haruka", and he had to be the "kind guy", so again he followed the circumstances to "always stay with her", until Haruka promptly kicked him away.

Takayuki is a hypocrite as he always evades the responsibility of making a decision to appear "kind", he thinks that he can't make any decision because he doesn't want to hurt anyone, while in reality he just doesn't want to take the responsibility and hurt himself, so he can just blame everything to circumstances and others. He hurts everyone in the name of not hurting anyone, in order to escape from the burden of the responsibilities of decisions, because his oh-so-fragile heart just can't take the thought that he has hurt someone or he has made a mistake with his decision, that's the greatest hypocrisy.

Shinji a hypocrite? where do you get this idea? Shinji is honest, he's not hiding from reality and responsibility, he can face his mistakes and the wrong things he has done. He can take actions and make decisions for himself, albeit they may turn out to be mistakes. Humans make mistakes at times, humans do wrong things at times. Shinji never tries to claim that his decisions don't hurt anyone. About facing the truth, what "truth" are you talking about? No one can see the "truth" of their own world, we can see the "truth" of KGNE because we are the watchers, not living inside the KGNE world. Can you say that you can see the "truth" of the real world? Can you say that you can see the "truth" of other people's real feelings? It's okay to be confused and not able to see the "truth", Shinji is not the omniscient God, he is a human with emotions.

If you don't want to follow through with proof and reasons to your point, then you better not bring up that point to begin with
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Old 2004-11-26, 02:01   Link #24
kujoe
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Fine. I didn't want to discuss anything about Shinji since that would be going off-topic. But since you insist...

(And I don't know where you got the idea where he changed his mind when he saw poor Haruka.)

Like I said, "hypocrite" may not be the right word. And perhaps this may be just the fault of the anime itself--but nevertheless Shinji isn't exempt from any significant flaw. He appears to be responsible, he appears to care--and to some extent, he's indeed all of that. But at the same time, he isn't. When Takayuki and co. are in the lowest of their lives, where is he? Oh yes, in the university. Right. Actually, that's good. He's got his priorities straight. After all, if I were in his place, I may have been reluctant to get myself involved in someone else's personal problems. That's not really such a big deal. Still, that makes me wonder.

In the end, he's there to congratulate Haruka for finally getting well, but frankly I found his presence there quite odd. Though I like the fact that he beats some sense into Takayuki, I don't think he's in the position to make it seem that he does care. He seems to come off to me as a guy who was there, but was really absent for the most part. It's like he only appeared to preach when it suddenly involves him on a personal level, and I suppose he indeed does have that right--but is he truly as noble as we think he is?

He too has his flaws. I just choose not to overrate him.

Takayuki on the other hand, is more of a indecisive bastard who's simply "too kind." The fact that he becomes lost in the moment, and tries to relive his memories with Haruka also affirms that he does feel guilty, hence he isn't truly as irreponsible (as in truly..) as you think he is. Seriously, can you even be truly responsible for a decision you can't make? Those are his greatest flaws--his indeciveness and his self-guilt. Hell, he tries to take responsibility for everything. No wonder he's in such a mess.

Moreover, his feelings and his confusion are indeed very real for him. He continues to hold those very principles (if you even can call them as such..) that have shaped him to be too kind for his good, hence his predicament. Personally, I don't think "hypocrisy" is the right word to describe Takayuki's attitude in this respect.

But hey... Whatever pleases you.

Last edited by kujoe; 2004-11-26 at 02:28.
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Old 2004-11-26, 02:10   Link #25
dreamless
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Shinji is not so noble, that's for sure. If he's so noble, he will just decline Mitsuki in front of the hotel and then maybe try to devise a perfect plan to solve all the problem He is a normal human, he has his life in university. It's not like if your friend suffers a mental breakdown, you need to go down with him...

For Takayuki, indeed he told himself that he needed to decide, but then when looking at Haruka, he told her that he would be "with her", and that's not even his decision, he's just saying and doing whatever to "follow the circumstances". Or do you think his decision is to be with Haruka and ditch Mitsuki?
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Old 2004-11-26, 02:14   Link #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
Shinji is not so noble, that's for sure.

. . . . . .
Of course. Like I said, I just choose not to overrate his apparent kindness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
For Takayuki, indeed he told himself that he needed to decide, but then when looking at Haruka, he told her that he would be "with her", and that's not even his decision, he's just saying and doing whatever to "follow the circumstances". Or do you think his decision is to be with Haruka and ditch Mitsuki?
Actually it's the other way around. I don't think he was going to say that he would be with Haruka, and neither do I think that he truly wavered even upon seeing her. Apprehension maybe, but nevertheless by then I believe he already had made his decision. Hence my saying, that Takayuki does make a decision in the end, whereas Haruka seals it for him.

That's what I think anyway. I'm sure some people may disagree with me.

Last edited by kujoe; 2004-11-26 at 02:28.
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Old 2004-11-26, 02:30   Link #27
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what do you mean the other way around? I'm sure he wanted to make a decision of leaving Haruka, but he gave up that decision at the sight of Haruka and tried to say that he'll stay with her, and it's Haruka saying "no you can't, you should go to Mitsuki" that kicked him off to Mitsuki. He attempted to make a decision, but he couldn't really make it. It's still Haruka making the decision for him. Thus he lost his last chance of making even a single decision himself in the series, and his last chance of redemption.

I said he doesn't have the guts to make any decision, not that he doesn't have the guts to attempt to make any decision. Actually during the whole course of the series he did attempt to make the decision several times, he told himself "this shouldn't continue", "I'll tell Haruka the next time we meet", but each time he gave up because his oh-so-fragile heart just couldn't bear the responsibility of hurting someone with his own decision. The last time is no different, he just told himself "I'll tell Haruka the next time", and when the time came it became "I'll be with you"

Oh and I don't think Takayuki only think of staying with Mitsuki and leaving Haruka at the very end, he never intended to ditch Mitsuki for Haruka to begin with. It's just that when he's not with Haruka, he always think to himself "I love Mitsuki and I'll tell Haruka the next time I meet her", but when with Haruka, he just can't make it. He just can't take the burden and responsibility of hurting Haruka.

And who said Shinji is kind? I said Shinji is leagues better than Takayuki, but I surely never said Shinji is kinder than Takayuki. LOL Takayuki is already stupidly over the top kind

Shinji is great because he's not overly kind, his heart is not overly oh-so-fragile, he's not overly caring for everyone, and he's not overly afraid of making mistakes and hurting others and taking the burden of responsibility with it.

Last edited by dreamless; 2004-11-26 at 02:41.
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Old 2004-11-26, 02:44   Link #28
kujoe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
what do you mean the other way around?
Sorry if I was being unclear. I was referring to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
Or do you think his decision is to be with Haruka and ditch Mitsuki?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
I'm sure he wanted to make a decision of leaving Haruka, but he gave up that decision at the sight of Haruka and tried to say that he'll stay with her, and it's Haruka saying "no you can't, you should go to Mitsuki" that kicked him off to Mitsuki. He attempted to make a decision, but he couldn't really make it. It's still Haruka making the decision for him. Thus he lost his last chance of making even a single decision himself in the series, and his last chance of redemption.
You see, this is where we disagree. I really have nothing against your interpretation of the events, and yours does make sense too--but I feel that just isn't the case with me. I think he was really going to tell her that he couldn't be with her. It's just that Haruka says it for him instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
I said he doesn't have the guts to make any decision, not that he doesn't have the guts to attempt to make any decision. Actually during the whole course of the series he did attempt to make a decision several times, he told himself "this shouldn't continue", "I'll tell Haruka the next time we meet", but each time he gave up because his oh-so-fragile heart just couldn't bear the responsibility of hurting someone with his own decision.
Yes, I agree. I do think he was an indecisive bastard. In this context, I think he feels that he couldn't bear the thought of being responsible as much as he really wanted to. A combination of fear and apprehension, in other words. I think there's a difference between this and being irresponsible about a decision one has already made. Then again, maybe not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
And who said Shinji is kind? I said Shinji is leagues better than Takayuki, but I surely never said Shinji is kinder than Takayuki. LOL Takayuki is already stupidly over the top kind
My mistake then. I should've emphasized the phrase "apparent kindness" and placed quotation marks on it. Or I should've used something else entirely--like his "better personality" as you put it yourself. And just in case: I am not trying to be sarcastic by the way.

Last edited by kujoe; 2004-12-01 at 20:51.
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Old 2004-11-26, 07:51   Link #29
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well i agree with dreamless regarding about the part about takayuki as an indecisive bastard. But come to think of it, for him it is difficult to make a choice. haraka had a coma, look at what happended when akane told her about the 3 year thing. she went into a deep sleep. If takayuki told haruka early inthe story, won' tit make her go into anothe deep sleep., possibly forever. What takayuki do not need is another relepse into his other state, the blank mind one. On the other hand, mitsuki is a little possessive i think. She should know that takayuki is haruka friend,nevertheless they were steady before. What she needs is to sit down and think properly
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Old 2004-11-26, 09:36   Link #30
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about "what if" scenes, I'm kinda interested in what people think about a "what if Akane didn't go out of control and slam the truth to Haruka's face" scenario, and a "what if Haruka never wakes up again after she went back into coma when Akane told her the truth" scenario
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Old 2004-11-26, 09:59   Link #31
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Originally Posted by jinyamato
well i agree with dreamless regarding about the part about takayuki as an indecisive bastard.
Hey. That's exactly what I said.

On another note, I think it was only inevitable for a guy like him with the kind of experiences he had. Just when he was supposed to move on (or seemed to, that is..), Haruka wakes up and a brand new can of worms just pops open with a vengeance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
about "what if" scenes, I'm kinda interested in what people think about a "what if Akane didn't go out of control and slam the truth to Haruka's face" scenario, and a "what if Haruka never wakes up again after she went back into coma when Akane told her the truth" scenario
Then we'd have more KGNE episodes!

Can you honestly stand any more than what we already have? Not me, that's for sure. (Well, one more episode wouldn't hurt and I did enjoy the ride, but really now... )
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Old 2004-11-26, 10:27   Link #32
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Originally Posted by kujoe
On another note, I think it was only inevitable for a guy like him with the kind of experiences he had. Just when he was supposed to move on (or seemed to, that is..), Haruka wakes up and a brand new can of worms just pops open with a vengeance.
well, he showed his absolutel indecisiveness since way before Haruka waking up. From his school days, from his response to Mitsuki's suggestion of living together, he's always just dead indecisive and passive as a rock
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Old 2004-11-26, 10:35   Link #33
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Originally Posted by dreamless
well, he showed his absolutel indecisiveness since way before Haruka waking up. From his school days, from his response to Mitsuki's suggestion of living together, he's always just dead indecisive and passive as a rock.
Wait a minute. I thought he finally made his decision to live together with Mitsuki in episode 3, before Haruka wakes up. Or was it episode 4? Perhaps he was just moving along with the circumstances, but his choice for me was nevertheless apparent. He certainly had a case of irresponsibility here, but Haruka waking up after three years was not something that both he and Mitsuki could easily ignore.

Personally, I think he was at his most indecisive self after Haruka wakes up. A guy can't get into a messier situation than that due to being stuck between the past and the present.

Last edited by kujoe; 2004-11-26 at 10:48.
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Old 2004-11-26, 11:08   Link #34
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Hmm... no, he did not make the decision, watch that part more carefully, Mitsuki thought it was not a good way to continue like this (spending nights frequently at Takayuki's without living together), so she asked him "let's live together". And Takayuki's first response is... "huh? why?" It shows that he just don't look forward and never think of improving the relationship, as long as he can linger on, he sees no need to improve anything, to make things better. Later he replied "okay let's move together since you asked it" just reinforces that he moves as others kicks him to move. He himself has no interest in living together with Mitsuki, he's content of things staying as they are, despite how troublesome and poor the current situation is. And then when others starts to kick him to do something, he'll do it without any reason of his own. When Mitsuki asked him why he agreed to live together, the only reason he gave is "you asked it right?"

That's what Takayuki is ever since his school days, lingering on each day without any goal of his own, wasting his life away without doing anything out of his own will. He doesn't have any will to continue to college, he doesn't have any will to improve his relationship with Mitsuki, he doesn't have any plan, dream, goal of his own, he's just content that everything stays the same, as the title says, "the eternity he wishes for", but eternity doesn't exist, and time passes on.

I'd say everything in the anime, every single little detail, including Haruka waking up, just clearly shows what a irresponsible lame loser Takayuki is.
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Old 2004-11-26, 11:29   Link #35
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Hmm... no, he did not make the decision, watch that part more carefully...
I guess I saw this in a different manner. For me, this part had a shade of gray--a dark one--but it wasn't as clearly depressing or as negative as yours. I do see your point however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
I'd say everything in the anime, every single little detail, including Haruka waking up, just clearly shows what a irresponsible lame loser Takayuki is.
I see. I figured when you said, "his absolute indecisiveness since way before Haruka waking up..." you were only referring to their high school days and what happened a bit after that. Heh. My bad.

I have nothing to say about him being a lame loser though, since I also do think so myself. However, I'm sure we have our differences with regard to the why's and how's within that assertion--as this discussion has already pointed out.
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Old 2004-11-26, 12:54   Link #36
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Now, to straighten out some things.

On the subject of Takayuki, why does everyone hate him so. I admired the guy, myself. He might be indecisive, but thats only because he thinks before he acts. He always wants to do the right thing, without hurting anyone. In the end, with the situations that he had to deal with, he had to end up hurting someone, and that was Haruka.

Now, on the subject of Mitsuki x Takayuki, who said they stayed together? At the end of the series, it never said anything about that. Its just the same with the Haruki x Takayuki relationship, you can't say if they would have broken up if Haruka never had her accident.

When Haruka went into the coma, it was almost as if Takayuki did too. Not because he was feeling guilty for buying Mitsuki the ring, that delayed him enough to let haruka be hit. He wasn't doing anything wrong when he bought Mitsuki the ring, it was her birthday, and she asked him for it. I don't see any "flirting" happening there. He really loved Haruka, and wanted to be with her. But this was not totally possible, because Haruka was in a coma.

I don't see anything wrong with Mitsuki caring for Takayuki when he sort of went into a "coma" himself, but the way she forced her feeling upon him, just like that, was sort of wrong. She could have done it in many other ways. I don't think that they had to have a relationship in order for Takayuki to come out of his comatose state. Shinji and Mitsuki should have been behind Takayuki more, supporting him, and consoling him. I don't think his life should have stopped then, but ajusted.

And, incase you are wondering, i'm not a Mitsuki or Shinji hater, so don't get that impression. I'm just interpreting the story the way i see it.
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Old 2004-11-26, 13:38   Link #37
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On the subject of Takayuki, why does everyone hate him so. I admired the guy, myself....
I tried to qualify my hate in this discussion, and perhaps my words were too strong. However as the audience, we *wished* that he would've acted better--especially during the times when he obviously didn't. With all things considered, I do see him as a weakling--a "loser" as some of us have claimed--as much as he was just one ordinary guy who really had pure intentions of his own. Others have seen him in a worse manner than me I suppose, so this is just simply my opinion.

I really have contradicting opinions regarding his character. And for better or for worse, his very portrayal is what separates him from the rest of his kind. Maybe my opinions will change if I watch it again. Then again, maybe not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuiichi
Now, on the subject of Mitsuki x Takayuki, who said they stayed together? At the end of the series, it never said anything about that. Its just the same with the Haruki x Takayuki relationship, you can't say if they would have broken up if Haruka never had her accident.
The end was pretty clear to me. Simply put: Takayuki is reconciled with Mitsuki. Perhaps the question that is often asked, is if they'll indeed have a "happily ever after." Fans are pretty much divided with regard to this as well, but personally (because I have my own biases and considering what originally transpires in the game...) I do think they'll have one. Gradually. As time passes by.

And that's it..! Christ. This discussion is just making me crazy!
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Old 2004-11-28, 22:04   Link #38
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The way I see it is that, like Yuuchi said, Takayuki thinks before acting in hopes to please everyone all the time...I know several people, myself including most of the time, that do this and it does appear as quite indecisive to people looking in on it.

I don't fault Takayuki's choices, or visible lack thereof, but what I do fault is the belief of trying to please everyone all the time. That's a fault in a lot of people, probably in everyone reading this thread one time or another, however in Takayuki's case, it was how he lived his life.

As I probably had stated in other threads, Takayuki originally had no feelings for Haruka and this was quite obvious, however as time went on, feelings on his part started to work it's way out and they started to grow. Cue the fateful day that Mitsuki stops him...Now, where Takayuki is indecisive, Mitsuki is pushy and strong-willed. Knowing Takayuki like she does, she pretty much sends him on a guilt trip over the gift thing, as well as to fulfill one of her desires, in the process Takayuki's nature of keeping people happy means he just cannot say no, and thus makes him late for his meeting with Haruka. The scenes at the end of that episode also show the guilt on Mistuki's face as you can easily see that she knows she is to blame partially, if she doesn't feel she's fully to blame. Looking on Takayuki's eyes you can see that his personality is the crux to the whole event and that in that very moment, his life all but shatters. Cue the following months of his vigilant watch over Haruka only to be told not to come around anymore, and thus sit lonely withering away in his apartment. Again, cue Mitsuki's persistance and pushiness with her forcing herself into Takayuki's life. Takayuki is sitting in self-pitty over how his way of life is forcing more pain onto others and that he cannot fix it, basically this could easily cause more issues and look like he's even more indecisive when Mitsuki pretty much forces herself onto him. He follows her around like a lost puppy dog because he really is lost and literally an empty shell of a person, not because he's indecisive, but more because he's got something eatting away inside of him...that 'was it my fault' and 'what if I was there' thoughts. I'm sure that if any of you had been in a similar situation that there would be a good chance you could be just like him, I know I was in a similar case and I acted the same way.

Overall, I really don't find Takayuki indecisive as he is really more of a selfless person, who wanted to please everyone all the time.

As for the end, if they followed the game's Mitsuki path and I'm guessing the extended ending for the DVDs shows this, they stayed together, married, and had a child. So, I'm pretty sure that it's not a happily ever after for everyone, but it is one of the more realistic ways to live. Which brings us to the whole Fan Disc thing again, looking around the different endings there (sans Akane's), there was no real 'bad' ending in whomever Takayuki ended up with. Haruka would either be happy with Takayuki or be happy with her dream as a children's author...Mitsuki would be happy with either Takayuki or her swimming...as you can see, the way the series ended, the only one I think had a bad experience is Akane, Haruka grew from her experiences and became the author she wanted to be, and Mitsuki got to be with Takayuki under his own decision.
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Old 2004-12-01, 02:12   Link #39
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has anyone noticed it. but the tree on the hill seems to be the entire cause of what ahppended in this anime
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Old 2004-12-01, 08:17   Link #40
DarkCntry
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has anyone noticed it. but the tree on the hill seems to be the entire cause of what ahppended in this anime
The tree is a legend in the high school's history...anyone who professes their liking towards another there is supposed to have a happy life together...it was a tradition so-to-speak.
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