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Old 2010-09-04, 23:19   Link #4061
Hooves
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Today I learned that going 8-pool and making 1 or 2 pairs of zerglings can make your opponent flip out and get all defensive while you expand without distractions.
Wait that actually works?
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Old 2010-09-04, 23:33   Link #4062
brocko
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Mind games

The longer you hold off you're attack, the more anxie they get for a rush only to find out it's never coming and that they've just been mindf*cked lol
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Old 2010-09-05, 01:12   Link #4063
Kafriel
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So I ask again, Banshee Rush, fair game or cheese ?
What you did, was a counter. If you had skipped rax/factory and gone straight port to finish the game in >8min, it would be cheese. Btw this guy was insane...he totally checked out your base and got....roaches, wtf o_0
Quote:
So your saying a rush is something a person does by quickly building units and sending them to the enemies' base without even knowing what they are building.

If they look at the enemies' army they are mostly finding a counter to it, not becoming a rush?
Even if you scout your opponent, a rush is a rush. Basically, if you go for a rush, the enemy should have little to no army, since rush is an early game tactic. Technically a counter comes after the enemy has moved their forces towards you.
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Old 2010-09-05, 02:03   Link #4064
Archon_Wing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Today I learned that going 8-pool and making 1 or 2 pairs of zerglings can make your opponent flip out and get all defensive while you expand without distractions.
For the most part I don't really recommend this. The thing is that your economy takes a huge hit and expanding and hard droning is merely going to let you catch up to the opposition. There is a good reason why they say any kind of early pool is very risky. It's not about losing zerglings, it's because your econ is very weak.

The other thing is that bad players simply don't care what you're doing and may rush you anyways, and you may not be able to hold off constant zealot pressure with a weak econ+ trying to expand. In general, do not play mind games with bad players. They tend to do what they were gonna do and often times they won't have even scouted you.

A good player will just attack you when they see an expansion and you'll just lose there. The nasty thing is that anti-zergling rush measures are also extremely effective against an early expand. A zealot rush, or a reaper harass is extremely difficult to deal with because you have 2 places to guard.

However, this does have a role sometimes in zvz though. Getting some extra drones in and making your enemy turtle can pull you ahead by a lot.
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Old 2010-09-05, 03:46   Link #4065
oompa loompa
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OMW I'm a baneling (portrait)!

Gonna stop now till patch 1.1 comes out.. though tbh, even in plat you don't see many reaper rushes
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Old 2010-09-05, 06:04   Link #4066
-Sho-
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Imo if you want that your rush works very well , don't build your building in your base , build outside in a corner or somewhere your opponent won't see it (well except Z )

Anyway , there's less rush in Plat & Diamond or at least not so common rush like yesterday someone rush me Roach , i had 6+ marines behind my wall , used my micro , he got owned he was keeping with Roach so i did MM , he tried to counter with Ban+Speedlings+Roachs but you know Hit&Run + stimpack you can do shit so win for me (+ Medivac after)
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Old 2010-09-05, 08:33   Link #4067
Proto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
For the most part I don't really recommend this. The thing is that your economy takes a huge hit and expanding and hard droning is merely going to let you catch up to the opposition. There is a good reason why they say any kind of early pool is very risky. It's not about losing zerglings, it's because your econ is very weak.

The other thing is that bad players simply don't care what you're doing and may rush you anyways, and you may not be able to hold off constant zealot pressure with a weak econ+ trying to expand. In general, do not play mind games with bad players. They tend to do what they were gonna do and often times they won't have even scouted you.

A good player will just attack you when they see an expansion and you'll just lose there. The nasty thing is that anti-zergling rush measures are also extremely effective against an early expand. A zealot rush, or a reaper harass is extremely difficult to deal with because you have 2 places to guard.

However, this does have a role sometimes in zvz though. Getting some extra drones in and making your enemy turtle can pull you ahead by a lot.
I'm trying to find for a way to beat a good sentry/stalker/zealot player without having to sit on my base praying for his micro to suck and have a chance to counter

Today I'll try breaking his stalker/zealot choke block with brute force and sena bunch of balelings followed by speedlings to get his probes. Let's see if that does the trick.
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Old 2010-09-05, 09:19   Link #4068
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proto View Post
I'm trying to find for a way to beat a good sentry/stalker/zealot player without having to sit on my base praying for his micro to suck and have a chance to counter

Today I'll try breaking his stalker/zealot choke block with brute force and sena bunch of balelings followed by speedlings to get his probes. Let's see if that does the trick.
Banelings + burrow = ambush.
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Old 2010-09-05, 09:24   Link #4069
Proto
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I've tried that with some success but any good terran player will keep scanning his way ahead precisely to avoid that the moment they see a baneling nest, and protoss get observers soon enough so it only works against v early pushes. :/
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Old 2010-09-05, 12:39   Link #4070
Kafriel
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^ As Z, it's vital that you creep anywhere and everywhere, and not place your traps in the most obvious places (i.e. exactly where your creep ends/near your chokes). Instead, place some as close to the enemy's base as possible (count turrets in your range), and if you got banelings to spare, you can even place some near their possible expansions...who scouts minerals? xD
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Old 2010-09-05, 13:02   Link #4071
Skane
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Originally Posted by Kafriel View Post
~ who scouts minerals? xD
o)O? I do. Denying your opponent his expansions will drain his resources rapidly.

Cheers.
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Old 2010-09-05, 13:05   Link #4072
-Sho-
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Well , you have to play Hit&Run too , with Creep Tumor everywhere , get infestor use fungal Growth then you can make big damage with Banelings + Speedlings + Roach/Hydras .
It needs a lot of micro .
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Old 2010-09-05, 14:29   Link #4073
Hooves
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Sho- View Post
Well , you have to play Hit&Run too , with Creep Tumor everywhere , get infestor use fungal Growth then you can make big damage with Banelings + Speedlings + Roach/Hydras .
It needs a lot of micro .
Thats a great idea, research Burrow. Get Infestor, get banelings, get Hydras

Root the enemy with Infestor. Suprise opponent with Banelings, then charge in with Hydras who would do short work on the Zealots as they charge at them (Well counting they do not have Charge) and benefit? With the Creep movement speed bonus, this will benefit Zerg a lot
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Old 2010-09-05, 16:36   Link #4074
Kafriel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skane View Post
o)O? I do. Denying your opponent his expansions will drain his resources rapidly.

Cheers.
I mean, scout the minerals you're going to mine, since enemy zerg might have traps around. I'd say it's the most unpredictable case of attack, which is why it can actually succeed provided you got the luxury to set it up.
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Old 2010-09-05, 17:13   Link #4075
Archon_Wing
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One hilarious thing that consistently works is burrowing a zergling at people's expansion spots; it'll delay their expo til they can get detection. I've had games where particularly negligent players couldn't expand there for like 10 minutes til they realized what was going on.
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Old 2010-09-05, 17:31   Link #4076
Hooves
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
One hilarious thing that consistently works is burrowing a zergling at people's expansion spots; it'll delay their expo til they can get detection. I've had games where particularly negligent players couldn't expand there for like 10 minutes til they realized what was going on.
That happened to me once I was trying to build an expansion, but it always canceled, I was confused and saying "What is going on..." Till I brought a Detector and noticed it was a Zergling

Also if anyone has the time, can anyone check this replay to see what went wrong? Was my opponent to defensive in this match? I'm just wondering what could have been approved of my tactics, and what were the flaws, since this was my 3rd win as playing the race Zerg.

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/7...rg-lost-temple
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Old 2010-09-05, 17:38   Link #4077
-Sho-
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Yeah that really works fine ^^ also for T player , it'll cost him 50 mana = Mule = 270 minerals and then you can play with burrowing Roach in his main CC assuming that when you get orbital people always use his mana when it reach to 50 + his wall will be open if he have to kill the gling . Unless that he went for Turrets but people only build them if they see Air or invis .
For P player , it's another story

Edit : Fixed

Last edited by -Sho-; 2010-09-05 at 20:45.
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Old 2010-09-05, 17:42   Link #4078
SoldierOfDarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
One hilarious thing that consistently works is burrowing a zergling at people's expansion spots; it'll delay their expo til they can get detection. I've had games where particularly negligent players couldn't expand there for like 10 minutes til they realized what was going on.
*writes down in notebook*

Get.....zergling.....to....burrow.....in....expans ion....spots....good....at....pissing...off....peo ple....

Been practicing zerg now. I find roaches a little underwhelming. Seems more like they are better geared for tanking while the zerglings/hydras do the killing.

Against Stalkers/zealots I found my roaches died too quickly while the zerglings reaped most of the kills. Then realized that roaches aside from having a slow attack also do not do extra damage against armored units....

So far my army composes of Roaches/Hydras backed up by corrupters/brood lords with the occasional infestor and ultralisk.

I can't believe I never knew that Banelings could act like spidermines.....
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Old 2010-09-05, 17:46   Link #4079
Hooves
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
Been practicing zerg now. I find roaches a little underwhelming. Seems more like they are better geared for tanking while the zerglings/hydras do the killing.

Against Stalkers/zealots I found my roaches died too quickly while the zerglings reaped most of the kills. Then realized that roaches aside from having a slow attack also do not do extra damage against armored units....

So far my army composes of Roaches/Hydras backed up by corrupters/brood lords with the occasional infestor and ultralisk.

I can't believe I never knew that Banelings could act like spidermines.....
Roaches are sorta under-powered atm, the only units they are good against is Zerglings, and Marines, anything else will slaughter them with ease. They are generally the tanks of the Zerg Swarm since they have 145 health, which means they can take the most damage allowing Speedlings, and Banelings, etc, etc move in for the kill.

That combination works out, we have the Roaches tanking the damage while the Hydras slaughter from behind, we have the Corrupters and Brood Lords controlling the sky, and dominating any land-based defense, the infestor is always good if the enemy has MM or Gateway Units, or Tier 1 Zerg Units. Utralisks are mostly handy when the situation is rough, and the enemy is all about land-based forces.. So unless there is no air, then Utralisks are supreme.. Or just my opinion.

Also I find Roaches/Hydras to be a good combination against the Gateway Units, or probably Lings/Hydras, since the Hydras' can basically penetrate right through the Protoss unit's shield.

Banelings are perfect when they are spidermines

Just my opinions running wild
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Old 2010-09-05, 17:53   Link #4080
SoldierOfDarkness
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Yeah for some strange reason I felt like Roaches were this awesome zerg unit that could take on nearly anything.

Boy was I wrong.

I've been practicing against Hard Protoss and had a few close calls but eventually pulled through against them to the point I was literally making a creep highway towards their base.

On that end. How should Zerg players start out in basic?

This is what've I've done
8-overlord
10-overlord
14-pool
15-extractor
16-extractor
18-Queen
23-zergling
24-Roach warren

And then from there I basically just built armies of zerglings and roaches and focused on hit and run while building an expo. The AI fought back with stalkers which decimated my forces so I eventually switched to hydras backed by roaches which proved far more effective.
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