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Old 2009-02-15, 17:05   Link #1061
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpian View Post
"Erm", more races alone does not automatically make for a better game; which is what he is implying my logic is.
Considering that was all that your initial post entailed, I can't blame him. Your initial post was basically "I have a feeling this game will flop" followed by "I think they should have added one or two factions"

If you meant that factions were but one thing they should have done, it might have been better to write that down as well. As it stands, your initial post is very much implying that your logic is "More races would make this game better."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpian View Post
Actually its not as black & white as you’re making it seem and, they’ve already tried many new things – simply adding new units and abilities will radically affect the old balance of the game. Even so, as far as I can see, the game has retained much of its look and feel; it actually looks like a refined version, and I like that. I also like that they haven’t chosen the completely 3d route and it has kept its classic feel to a degree. A couple of new races would be different, but that’s not to say that the old fans wouldn’t enjoy it – especially if they took time to do it right.
Yes, but that's a gamble. The sequel alone is already a big gamble, adding another race would throw another fifty/fifty gamble in what is essentially already a huge fifty/fifty gamble (just because a game is hailed as one of the best ever doesn't mean its sequel is too).

Not to mention they also took the risk of releasing the single-player as 3 different games, one campaign per game each, and you can see why Blizzard shied away from adding yet another gamble to the mix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpian View Post
(….But, on a side note, between you and I, do you really believe Blizzard to be “that” cautious? With the way they’ve been patching Warcraft, and the types of radical changes made to the game? )
Yes I do. Why? Because WoW has already sold well and is already a well-established and popular game. Not to mention that despite the whining, many of the changes Blizzard has made were asked for by the community (which is something that often gets overlooked. The whining hardly ever starts when the changes are suggested, only when they're implemented).

Starcraft 2 on the other hand, is a long ways from a well-established game.
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Old 2009-02-16, 13:15   Link #1062
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
Uh... this is exactly where your argument assumes that more is better. You say "why not?" while I say "why?" Even if they can make an equally good game, the fact that it has more races would have no bearing on its goodness, so why bother when it makes it more difficult for them?

You seem to have the unspoken assumption that a well-balanced game with more races is better than a equally well-balanced game with less races. Am I wrong? You say that, all else being equal, the game would be improved in your eyes if it had more races? Is that a misinterpretation?

Adding more races is a gamble. It increases development time exponentially because of the necessity of balancing them all. Quite frankly, there's no reason whatsoever to take this risk unless you assume that having more races makes for a better game, all else being equal. That's what I was arguing against, and I don't see how that's not your point. Maybe I confused the point by bringing up my past frustration where "more ____" has been repeatedly brought up as a selling point. But my main point was simply that adding more of something does not make it better in any way. Not only does more not guarantee a better game, it adds nothing to the quality of a game.
It adds variety, and more possible strategies since a new race would include new abilities and such. It would also be refreshing to see some new races and it can also add more flavor to the story; I seriously doubt 1-2 new races would terribly hurt blizzard to implement. Yes, this would require more time and effort, but blizzard has more than enough resources to make this work; but for some reason you’re speaking from the developer’s point of view as if the developers are light on resources. Honestly though, they're probably just waiting to add new races in order to stretch things out and maximize profits. After a 10+ year wait(and ~5-6 of those years playing brood war - sometimes casually), please pardon me if I'd rather it sooner than later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Yes, but that's a gamble. The sequel alone is already a big gamble, adding another race would throw another fifty/fifty gamble in what is essentially already a huge fifty/fifty gamble (just because a game is hailed as one of the best ever doesn't mean its sequel is too). .
If done correctly it would work out fine, I doubt anyone would not want to play a well balanced game with 4-5 classes just because 2 more were added; plain and simple.


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Originally Posted by Kyero Fox View Post
Yes I do. Why? Because WoW has already sold well and is already a well-established and popular game.
Oh please, there were radical changes and badly unbalanced patches from the beginning. This isn’t the only time paladins were very powerful; and even shamans were once considered “overpowered” back in the day.
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Old 2009-02-16, 13:29   Link #1063
blitz1/2
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I am not looking forward to this game at all. I believe SC and brood war would be better.
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Old 2009-02-16, 13:36   Link #1064
Nosauz
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@scorpian

have you ever played an rts, because you seem to miss the point on adding races. In AoE, Supreme Commander, "mutiple" races were just guys in different skins, with tech trees changed abit, hell even most C&C games are this way untill recently with C&C 3 and RA3. RTSs are really hard to balance, and blizzard is making this game in mind with professional players, not just the casual market. So balance is important. The reason why blizzard games are always good is because of the idea of balance, and what makes SC factions so great is that there disctinctly unique. Each has their own tech trees, their own special features as races that differ greatly from one another. This was true for Emperor of Dune, but when you add more distinctly different races, sooner or latter since only a certain amount of things can be applied to rtss, you'll eventually create something that will wreck the competitive nature of the game. C&C3 got rocked severly when a imbalance was detected in the scrin, at the time EA spent monthes ignoring it, in the end it pretty much decimated online play. So to say adding new races is not hard, means you clearly haven't thought about what it takes to make a game, let alone a rts.

also your comment on dawn of war, is not that great, because dawn of war compared to CoH is by far inferior. Plus half the races play exactly the same in Dawn of War, also resource aquisition is quite similar for all races thus removes a lot of the tactical advantages that blizzard uses for its RTS. Maximizing resources is really important in blizzard rtss whereas Dawn of war it doesnt matter as much, whats more important is tactical placement of forces and area aquisition. Also if you look at dawn of war 2 there are most likely 3 races, Orcs, humans, and tyranids which makes sense because providing a balanced game is more fun then just everbody plays the same race.
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Old 2009-02-16, 13:52   Link #1065
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpian View Post
It adds variety, and more possible strategies since a new race would include new abilities and such. It would also be refreshing to see some new races and it can also add more flavor to the story; I seriously doubt 1-2 new races would terribly hurt blizzard to implement. Yes, this would require more time and effort, but blizzard has more than enough resources to make this work; but for some reason you’re speaking from the developer’s point of view as if the developers are light on resources. Honestly though, they're probably just waiting to add new races in order to stretch things out and maximize profits. After a 10+ year wait(and ~5-6 of those years playing brood war - sometimes casually), please pardon me if I'd rather it sooner than later.
It adds risk. Everybody likes the races as they are, implementing a new race throws things out of the loop, and not in a way people necessarily like. For a title as famous as Starcraft, it's much safer to start out with what people know and like, as to not scare of the old-time fans, and then introduce something new in an expansion or new title.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpian View Post
If done correctly it would work out fine, I doubt anyone would not want to play a well balanced game with 4-5 classes just because 2 more were added; plain and simple.
Considering there are people who don't play RA3 because of the addition of the Empire of the Rising Sun... yes, I do believe people don't want to play a game because of the addition of a new faction.

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Originally Posted by Scorpian View Post
Oh please, there were radical changes and badly unbalanced patches from the beginning. This isn’t the only time paladins were very powerful; and even shamans were once considered “overpowered” back in the day.
I note that you have yet to comment on the second bit, which still applies here.
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Old 2009-02-16, 14:40   Link #1066
Ithekro
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What are you guys suddenly going off about? Did something happen in the last few days?

I was under the impression since the ending of Brood Wars that there was going to be a fourth race added to the game at some point.
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Old 2009-02-16, 14:43   Link #1067
Keroko
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we're going off on the idea that blizzard 'should' have added a new race in Starcraft 2. Scorpian is of the opinion they should have, some are not, I understand Blizzard's decision not to do so immediately, and the debate trailed on from there.
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Old 2009-02-16, 15:11   Link #1068
Scorpian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
What are you guys suddenly going off about? Did something happen in the last few days?

I was under the impression since the ending of Brood Wars that there was going to be a fourth race added to the game at some point.

There will be, however there are some people here who wish the game to remain at three races, because they seem to believe that the addition of 1-2 races will necessarily ruin the game.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post

I note that you have yet to comment on the second bit, which still applies here.
my post also applys to the second bit; you said sc2 is not established, but I already mentioned the way blizzard was not as "carful" as you made them seem to be since they've been introducing ridiculous patches from the beginning of the game (original wow). (i gave examples of shaman and paladins being unbalanced, etc.)



And, as for everything else, you're all still arguing from the point of view of a developer without much resources; I'm arguing from a player's perspective and stated that I'd wish they added a race or two. You're mentioning blizzards "risks" and etc. but none of you have really stated any reasons why *you* yourselves wouldn't like the idea. Why would you not like to have an additional race or two if they are balanced well? What is so horrible about the idea?
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Old 2009-02-16, 15:17   Link #1069
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Nosauz; there's 4 races in DoW2, allthough all races have very few units. More factions will be added in expansions.

I definitely wouldn't mind a fourth race as long as it's done well and fits the storyline. It is however very hard to add and balance races.
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Old 2009-02-16, 15:19   Link #1070
Cinocard
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Let me sum it up:

If it's well-done, balanced, distinctive, everyone would like another new race or two.

Yet because it is extremely difficult and risky, and the 3 basic races already function well enough, Blizzard didn't make that choice.

Scorpian, however, believes they should have enough time and money to do so.

We all believe even with all that time and money, it is still a huge risk putting in more races.

Is that correct?

What are you guy fighting about? Since Blizzard never did make another race from the start, there's no way telling if that would have turned out nicely or not.

Last edited by Cinocard; 2009-02-16 at 15:33.
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Old 2009-02-16, 15:23   Link #1071
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Quote:
Why would you not like to have an additional race or two if they are balanced well? What is so horrible about the idea?
Of course I'd be delighted at the idea of a game who can seamlessly automatically generate an unlimited number of races and that can perfectly balance them on the fly. And more realistically, having the Xel'Naga as a proper race that is all well balanced from day 1 wouldn't hurt.

But being realistic on how difficult it is to balance these things, and considering the amount of following that Starcraft 2 will get from day one, unlike it's younger brother, I think I'd prefer Blizzard to play safe and use an enhanced, yet known and proven formula for their most successful franchise and leave the experimenting for other projects. Because: The most important aspect of Stacraft is the multi player. An unbalanced game creates a not so happy environment for hasu and gosu players, and an unhappy high profile community is a community that will disappear in the long run, or never reach the potential it could have. Being the hard core starcraft fan I used to be back in the day, I think my decision is obvious.
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Old 2009-02-16, 15:29   Link #1072
Scorpian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinocard View Post
Let me sum it up:

If it's well-done, balanced, distinctive, everyone would like another new race or two..
Apparently, not "everyone" .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinocard View Post
Scropian, however, believes they should have enough time and money to do so.

Absolutely.
I really believe they're simply holding of in order to stretch out the money - which is fine, you know, make your money, but I think the fans deserve a bit more than this especially after 10+ years. And, they definetly overdid it with the way they only allowed one playable race campaign each exansion. I believe that if they really tried, they can certainly pull it off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinocard View Post
We all believe even with all that time and money, it is still a huge risk putting in more races.

Is that correct?

What are you guy fighting about? Since Blizzard never did make another race from the start, there's no way telling if that would have turned out nicely or not.
Even we had a crystal ball and could tell how it would turn out, they're not even arguing from a player's perspective, they're only brining up marketing and managment issues. None of them even stated why they wouldn't enjoy 1-2 more classes in the game if it were balanced.
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Old 2009-02-16, 15:43   Link #1073
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpian View Post
my post also applys to the second bit; you said sc2 is not established, but I already mentioned the way blizzard was not as "carful" as you made them seem to be since they've been introducing ridiculous patches from the beginning of the game (original wow). (i gave examples of shaman and paladins being unbalanced, etc.)
By second bit I meant that the changes made were requested by the community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpian View Post
And, as for everything else, you're all still arguing from the point of view of a developer without much resources; I'm arguing from a player's perspective and stated that I'd wish they added a race or two. You're mentioning blizzards "risks" and etc. but none of you have really stated any reasons why *you* yourselves wouldn't like the idea. Why would you not like to have an additional race or two if they are balanced well? What is so horrible about the idea?
We're arguing from a developers perspective because Blizzard makes these choices from a developers view. Obviously. Your post was challenging Blizzard on that they should have added a new faction or two, so logically we'd reply why they didn't do so from a developers view. After all, why we would or would not want it is irrelevant considering Blizzard makes the call.

Now if you ask me, meh, I prefer they lay down the new story first, and then carry on introducing new races in the inevitable expansion. From what we've heard so far the Xel'Naga are going to play a vital role in this game, so I would prefer they would lay down the story for them first, and then introduce them later on, rather then just BAM! here are the Xel'Naga, whom up to this point you'd only vaguely heard about. Yay.
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Last edited by Keroko; 2009-02-16 at 15:59.
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Old 2009-02-16, 15:44   Link #1074
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Ok, let me point this out one more time, if you were to add 1, i mean as in, ichi, uno, i, un, the amount of time to produce a BALANCED game would probably tack on atleast a year of development, and this isn't even considering the fact that blizzard only makes GOOD games. So instead of a year for most general studios to do what your asking, blizzard most likely would have to add an additional two years on to the project just to add one new race. Therefore the marginal improvements of one race versus 3 years of twiddling my thumbs as I play dota is not a prospect that I appreciate. Look would it be better if they could do all the stuff you said? Yes. Would it be realistic? No. Just because WoW is a profit maker, right now Activision is pretty much sucking Blizzard dry, honestly, as long as the launch games that are good, I don't care how long it takes. I'm not saying that another race wouldn't help but the amount of time and effort at this stage would take way too long for fans to take. If you consider another 3 year wait on what you already know for an additional race, I'm pretty sure most fans will take the finished 3 race product now over 1 extra race in 3 years.
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Old 2009-02-16, 15:45   Link #1075
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There's only one campaign per expansion, yes. But the singleplayer campaign is much more detailed n' shit. It's not just do that map and you're done. The campaign is also a LOT longer. If I remember correctly, there's about 20 missions per campaign. or it might have been 30 actually
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Old 2009-02-16, 15:50   Link #1076
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Ah. I see.
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Old 2009-02-16, 16:04   Link #1077
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Cheezy View Post
There's only one campaign per expansion, yes. But the singleplayer campaign is much more detailed n' shit. It's not just do that map and you're done. The campaign is also a LOT longer. If I remember correctly, there's about 20 missions per campaign. or it might have been 30 actually
Around 26 to 30 missions per campaign.

For comparison, the average Starcraft campaign was around 10 missions I believe. That's triple the game. Don't mind if I drool.
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Old 2009-02-16, 16:36   Link #1078
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I'd like to live in a post-scarcity society where all the energy of the sun is harnessed in some kind of Dyson Sphere and we have armies of loyal robots doing all the menial but necessary tasks and the entirety of humanity would live in leisure while devoting their time to philosophy and art, but you don't see me writing to my congressman about it. That's because its unreasonable to ask for. Instead we care about things like taxes and social security and the job market. This is what we call being realistic.

Now, that's an extreme example, but that's what's going on in this thread. On one hand we have someone who's asking for their ideal game, and on the other hand we have the response that we'd rather play a very good game in the next year or two than a very good game with 2 more races in five years. As Blizzard is fond of telling us, you can't make a great game by throwing more money and people at it. Adding more people probably slows development if anything.
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Old 2009-02-16, 16:37   Link #1079
SeedFreedom
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Personally, i think adding another race would be disastrous. Who knows how long, or if ever these new races will balance out with the rest. The reason why Starcraft is so popular today, and still hold competitive yearly tournaments is because of its balance.

What does adding a new race even add to the game? Not much. Each race has already carved its own unique style. Zergs outnumber and spread, Terran are specialized and mobile, Protoss units are the most power, but most expensive of the bunch. If you want something new and different, check out some of the videos from blizzcon. Almost all new units were used, except the Teir 1 (marine, Zealot, and zergling). These units have new abilities and will change the game will be played. The game is changed, but the style and soul is the same.

@Clarste (wrote his while i was typing up mine)

Your under the assumption that if it could all be balanced everyone people would prefer that. I dont think that is true at all. A lot of the responses here, and me included, want to keep the "soul" of the game the same.
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Old 2009-02-18, 22:30   Link #1080
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Personally, I kinda wanted to see another race in StarCraft 2 as well but at the same time I understand the decision not to do so. StarCraft 2 has an incredible legacy that it has to live up to, I mean 10 years on and the original StarCraft is still being played worldwide (not mentioning the fact that it's one of the handful of games that are on the leading forefronts of E-Sports). Developing StarCraft 2 naturally isn't going to be an easy job, and adding an extra race or two into the mix isn't going to make things any eaiser either.

However that doesn't necessarily mean that an extra race is out of the question altogether, they could very well still appear in the single player campaign (which is my best bet atm), much like how the Nagas and Bloodelves were included in the single player campaign of WarCraft 3 as minor races but left out in the multiplayer for the sake of balance. There's also the chance that they could appear in the expansion packs or in the map editor as well.
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