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Old 2009-07-05, 11:24   Link #1201
Keroko
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Difference in motivation. My main motivation for playing Starcraft was to get to the new level and find out more about the story. I need a 'why' to play. "I'm red, and I kill those other guys because they're blue" works just fine for online play (<3 Team Fortress) but in singleplayer... not quite.
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Old 2009-07-05, 16:05   Link #1202
Tr3adst0ne
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Join Date: Jun 2009
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Ever since most of the staff left Westwood after it merged into EALA, the games it made are disasters. Generals is a good testament to that.

Being a hardcore C&C fan myself, I really couldn't bring myself to condemn the games I love so much since young. But since RA3 came out, I am thinking of letting my loyalties to Blizzard. Though their build limit is a boring implementation, the storyline and gameplay is not bad compared to other games.

P.S Don't they have that Commando type missions in C&C 1, Mission 6 that forces you think rather than just give you stuff to build anymore? Though I never finished the Covert Ops mission pack entirely, I would say that C&C Siege is one of the best designed missions ever.
The one where you're Nod and attacked by a GDI task group from the hills?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Personally, my main gripe with Red Alert 3 is the horrible cutscenes. Cutscens are supposed to be a rewarding experience that deepens the plot, not a punishment that forces you to stare at a pair of talking breasts that pretend to be able to act. Only the Russian campaign had interesting scenes and good acting.

Which is also why I love C&C 3, since the cutscenes there are both good quality acting and serve to actually deepen the plot.

That's because Joe Kucan as Kane pretty much helped drive the story.


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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Neither the gameplay nor the plot is what irked me, what irked me was the horrible acting that managed to totally ruin any pretense of immersion.

You can have an 'over the top' setting and still have a gripping story, as long as you make sure that story is told... well... gripping. RA3 failed in this aspect. When watching cutscenes, you weren't watching the leaders of armies and countries, you were watching actors trying to act, and failing miserably.
RA2 was pretty decent. 'Specially Barry Corbin as General Carville (harkens back to the days he was an AF general in War Games)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Difference in motivation. My main motivation for playing Starcraft was to get to the new level and find out more about the story. I need a 'why' to play. "I'm red, and I kill those other guys because they're blue" works just fine for online play (<3 Team Fortress) but in singleplayer... not quite.
TF2 vids ftw. SC is something of a rare gem since it is regarded by many as perfect when it comes to online competitive play. It was part of the reason why e-sports is gradually heading into the realm of popularity, though it's going to be a while before people accept it at the same level as RL sports.
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Old 2009-07-05, 16:46   Link #1203
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tr3adst0ne View Post
The one where you're Nod and attacked by a GDI task group from the hills?
There's also that mission in RA2 that gives you Tanya and a few Seals to clear an entire mission.

And wasn't there a few missions in C&C 3 that also do this? I recall the NOD mission to destroy the satellite link to the missile defense system... and I think there was a Scrin mission as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tr3adst0ne View Post
That's because Joe Kucan as Kane pretty much helped drive the story.
True he is pretty much the icon of C&C, but the rest of the cast provided a good performance as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tr3adst0ne View Post
RA2 was pretty decent. 'Specially Barry Corbin as General Carville (harkens back to the days he was an AF general in War Games)
Oh yes, agreed. I have no complains about RA2. Though I'm more of a Yuri fan myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tr3adst0ne View Post
TF2 vids ftw. SC is something of a rare gem since it is regarded by many as perfect when it comes to online competitive play. It was part of the reason why e-sports is gradually heading into the realm of popularity, though it's going to be a while before people accept it at the same level as RL sports.
I'm always having a hard time adjusting to online play. Especially with Starcraft, where the amount of rushers in my experience take on frightening proportions.
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Old 2009-07-05, 16:57   Link #1204
felix
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I'm always having a hard time adjusting to online play. Especially with Starcraft, where the amount of rushers in my experience take on frightening proportions.
That's why the boulder mechanic was introduced. There was talk about how there would be less rush easy maps for not so experience players not to get diced. Well it's a ripoff of the classic almost dead mineral field used for years now in the original, but who cares.
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Old 2009-07-05, 21:24   Link #1205
Tr3adst0ne
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Originally Posted by Cats View Post
That's why the boulder mechanic was introduced. There was talk about how there would be less rush easy maps for not so experience players not to get diced. Well it's a ripoff of the classic almost dead mineral field used for years now in the original, but who cares.
That's part of what will make SC2 interesting is how the terrain isn't necessarily static as opposed to SC1. Of course there's choke points, bodies of water and hills, but they can only get you so far. It would be interesting to see RTS games to implement terrain deformation and weather conditions that will affect gameplay and make it more interesting.

C&C Tib Sun is the only game that I can think of that had actual terrain deformation which played in force movement and building placement. There was ion storms that affected certain units and prevented any air-based/hover-based platforms from movies. Company of Heroes is another title which took the terrain deformation to a more tactical level, where buildings that got struck by incoming shell fire don't necessarily turn the same every time.
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Old 2009-07-05, 22:55   Link #1206
yezhanquan
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Join Date: Oct 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gummybear View Post
IMO sc was never about CG cutscene to me, I just care about how it plays. Let me put it this way: when you go to the cental park in down town to play chess, do you care about how pretty the other guy dress or how beautful his/her voice is or your main concerns is how good of a game the other guy will give you? If you want CG cutscenes, I say you are barking up the wrong tree, that's RPG's job, not the RTS; specially SC, it's all about providing a ground for the battle of the minds.
That's my view.
SC single player is centered on the storyline, which is akin to a movie. Online-wise, it is another kettle of fish. So, yes, I have different expectations for single and multi-player.
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Old 2009-07-06, 02:07   Link #1207
Ithekro
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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There seems to be a lot more things that block "line of sight" this time around. It seems to change some of the tactical considerations based on the three Battle Reports out so far. On the other hand I never played the hot and heavy BattleNet versions of the game with serious players. Only the LAN versions at my frend's house years ago. Typically the two of us verses some bots. I was generally the Terran that liked to have a secure defensive network before going on the offensive while my friend was the Protoss that had moderate defenses and then started trying to beat down the enemy.

I would usually have a massive number of dead in front of my defenses while by army grew, then I would join the Protoss in a two prong attack to take out enemy bases in one or maybe two waves if they had extra heavy units/defenses.

With the changes, it looks like the tried and true "Seige Tank/Bunker/Tower(mines)" defense isn't going to work as much as it did before. Not with things like "blink" and warp-ins using those new ships, or some of the nastier exploding Zerg that probably are designed to take out those old tightly packed choke point defenses from SC1. You know the two side by side bunkers with the two seige tanks behind them and a tower between the tanks. Or the stepped bunker defenses with two then one then two with tanks and towers everywhere to keep out even the most stubborn Zerg and Protoss Force until you can get more troops to the frontline?

I also don't remember us ever having that many gathering units in our bases. I think we tended to stick to one or two units per crystal and three to four for gas.
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Old 2009-08-25, 15:57   Link #1208
Nosauz
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Join Date: Feb 2009
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no longer a day one buy, most likely a never buy, no lan, no way. the 3 seperate skus for sp was already a rage, but now to have authentication like spore is just a no go.
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Old 2009-08-25, 17:35   Link #1209
Proto
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Blizzard has said that they will have pseudo LAN support, in that it will just connect to batte.net for authentication purposes before dropping back to LAN connection. This is mainly to circunvent people using illegal copies in lLAN parties, which doesn't seem like a bad move for me. They have also said that the 3 different games will work more like 1 game 2 expansions in terms of the pricing. Not the nicest move, but not the rip off some people are trying to make of it.
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Old 2009-08-25, 17:36   Link #1210
Nosauz
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sorry, I don't want to have to connect to the internet to play a game with my friends in my living room, since all pc games pretty much have lan, i'll stick to ones that do, wave to tf2, dow2, and pretty much every other damn game thats been made except for this and wow
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Old 2009-08-25, 17:47   Link #1211
Proto
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What would you propose then as a solution to avoid the usage of illegal copies in LAN parties?

And why does the usage of the Internet for something that is little more than a ping represents such a negative factor to you?
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Old 2009-08-25, 17:59   Link #1212
Nosauz
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Live with it... I mean the facts of the software game is that there will be people who will not pay for your product and as long as this is true why fight it when you do fight you only hurt your paying customers? Drm is DRM and this is highly intruisive form of DRM, by completly removing a feature or limiting to them to online only. Also their assumption that everybody has a solid interent connection if they host a lan is ridiculous. Really it's blizzards loss, because I buy lots of their games, 2 wow accounts, 3 copies of both wc3 and its expansion 2 copies of d2 but this stance just makes me think that they only really care about their bottom line instead of developing a game that is made for the consumer. I mean just look at the pay for maps... thats ridiculous, the only reason why wc3 had so many great custom maps was because after people tried out a map, they could tweak them, playtest them, but blizzard here is trying to get profit from map makers and honestly any percentage of that profit goes to blizzard is just bull, it would like paying valve to let us play custom maps.
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Old 2009-08-25, 18:06   Link #1213
Proto
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I don't think you got it right when they mentioned pseudo LAN support. With that, the only thing that battle.net is used for is as some sort of authentication system. After that, all communication between the peers is handled as in any local LAN. You could use a 56K for 8 players and it wouldn't take 10 seconds. if this qualifies as DRM (which, by the most strict definition it is not, but for the sake of the argument let's say it is), I'd say it's about most benign control system i've ever encountered, given that it's barely a step up from a CD-KEY check.

BTW, pay for your map is not a mandatory system, and Blizzard has assured that this will not mean that there won't be free content available. It depends entirely on what the map authors decide. At least I think we shouldn't be destroying our Blizzard merchandise and posting photos of the deed till more details are announced.
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Old 2009-08-25, 19:07   Link #1214
Ithekro
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I suppose it is in line with the times. I do wonder how or even if that will effect the way Starcraft 2 is played verse the original. I remember playing basic LAN style games with my friend back when Starcraft came out. I think we did that until maybe a year or two after Brood Wars came out. I don't think either of us have played it since then.

More and more people that are online seem to be on some form of DSL or Cable setup, so many that is what Blizzard is banking on. Or maybe webcafe type places over strickly dailup connections, which seem to becoming fewer and fewer since the speed of the Internet is getting more and more difficult to play that way, though not impossible. It is just hard to go back to dailup after you've been introducted to something 10-100 times faster.
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Old 2009-08-25, 19:13   Link #1215
yezhanquan
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The selling point of SC2 seems to be the storyline. I really don't see how to enhance multi-player by introducing new units, where the stories are supposed to be happening concurrently.
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Old 2009-08-25, 19:22   Link #1216
Ithekro
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So basically a cross between World of Warcraft and Starcraft. Starcraft setting, gameplay, and multiplayer modes, Warcraft style storylines and expansions to storylines? Or is it less than that and just Starcraft being itself? Brood Wars was pretty good storywise and added some new element and tactics to the game even in multiplayer modes.
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Old 2009-08-25, 19:30   Link #1217
yezhanquan
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Remember: Brood Wars took place a few years after SC1. Unless the SC2 campaigns are like that, it makes less sense for new units to pop up.

I hope the Risk-style map doesn't disappoint, and you need to master both the traditional map and this to be effective.
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Old 2009-08-25, 20:03   Link #1218
Nosauz
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sorry agreeing to this shitty drm is like saying every time I put on a shirt that I've bought I have to call in the id code to put it on... purely asinine when you think of it as a consumer and not from the devs. Clearly we are the consumer here and I shouldn't be harassed when if it happens my location doesn't have internet I won't be able to play lan. Completely stupid and broken system, this probably almost as bad as ME or Spores DRM.
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Old 2009-08-25, 20:18   Link #1219
Proto
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sorry agreeing to this shitty drm is like saying every time I put on a shirt that I've bought I have to call in the id code to put it on...
Surely you know the difference between a product and a service, and the consequences that that differences brings up right?

Quote:
Clearly we are the consumer here and I shouldn't be harassed when if it happens my location doesn't have internet I won't be able to play lan.
This is something I can agree with, however the alternative would be to put stricter controls on the CD legitimacy verification, which would bring the bad side of DRM in. (and if you ask me which one do I prefer, the answer is obvious given how rare will be the case when I have a complete network installation yet I lack an Internet connection).

DRM by itself is only as bad as copyright is. A tool that allows developers to protect their intelectual property. There is a slippery rope of how pushy DRM can get before it gets in the way of the consumers, and how lenient can it be before it becomes but a paper thing shield that can be abused. In this case, I don't blame Blizzard, I think they found a balanced solution. Unless you can elaborate on why this solution is as bad as the spyware like example you cited, because from my point of view you are only using scare tactics like arguments.
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Old 2009-08-25, 21:03   Link #1220
Nosauz
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Here are some very plausible situations

My internet goes out, internet's out but I wanna play with my friend sitting right next me, how can blizzard ensure that I the legitimate user can play the game I bought in the way that I want, that is actually built into the game's function

Blizzard's servers tard out and I want to play with my friend. Why should I be punished for a service that is clearly NOT NEEDED suffers to an outage. If Blizzard can't guarantee 100% uptime on their servers than this is an issue. Because the most frustating thing is not being able to play my game the way I want to.

I mean clearly blizzard is trying to cut into the dd racket that Steam and direct2download have cornered but really this is a severly flawed concept, because internet technologies aren't perfect but local play should always be accessible. If piracy was a big deal then why haven't all the other PC developers have abandoned lan? because it is a function that is naturally built in for their games and they understand that the less restrictive they are the more likely they'll get repeat customers.

Oh yea if you played wow in the begininng or diablo when d1 first launched you'll know how shaky the service will be on launch. The point is I primarily play starcraft as a lan game and not the online stuff so lan is a feature I want and if it's not there I won't buy this.
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