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Old 2009-05-28, 10:33   Link #1
serenade_beta
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Content Restrictions on Japanese ero-games

Moderator Note: Spun-off from Favourite Eroge thread. Please also consult the How should we react to visual gameplays' featuring disturbing themes? thread for broader discussion of the issues in general. This thread is focused on the actual news, potential reasons for the proposed restrictions, and ramifications thereof.

----

Oi... Tell me I'm hallucinating...


From Moonphase:

Quote:
■[18禁]「凌辱系」ゲーム、製造・販売禁止へ。
とりあえずソフ倫から。メディ倫、映像審(旧ビデ倫)も追随しそうだけど。既に、来月以降発売予定のタイト ルはどうなるんだ?あと、レイプやら痴漢やら、それが目的のゲームだけならともかく、バッドエンドとかSF やファンタジーなどで使われる凌辱表現まで規制したら表現の幅が大幅に減って、どの作品も似たり寄ったりに なってしまうので、何でもかんでも規制!みたいな審査基準にはしないでくれ。例えば、「町ぐるみ輪姦」と「 神楽道中記」だったら、「町ぐるみ輪姦」はNGで、「神楽道中記」はOKなのか、それとも両方ともNGにな るのか?
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .............................................Oioio ioioioi......
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2009-05-28 at 19:56.
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Old 2009-05-28, 10:42   Link #2
HashiriyaR32
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Um, someone mind translating that? *nervous laugh*
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Old 2009-05-28, 10:52   Link #3
serenade_beta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HashiriyaR32 View Post
Um, someone mind translating that? *nervous laugh*
This is the correct link:
http://news.tbs.co.jp/newseye/tbs_newseye4143799.html

Basically, to sum it up, all creation and selling of 凌辱-type eroges have been forbidden now, since people (like England) are fussing over it. There goes one part of the eroges that exist, huh.
Just in case someone doesn't know, 凌辱-type eroges are the ones where you rape the characters, train them, etc... The ones where you treat females "violently".
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
...
FUZAKERUNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! KUSOGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAA!

---
The message from Moonphase worries about what will happen to Bad Ends of that type for SF and Fantasy type games, etc . If such Bad Ends are removed and stuff, the games will start to look similar to each other and etc...
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Old 2009-05-28, 11:07   Link #4
izmosmolnar
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Yeah I just read it here in the forum by the "general chat" section. (sorry for metalinking)
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...48#post2421748

To be perfectly honest, I find it sad, how overboard the whole thing went.
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Old 2009-05-28, 11:07   Link #5
outlawed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serenade_beta View Post
Zepy has covered this a couple times since the controversy started.

http://zepy.momotato.com/2009/05/09/...apanese-media/

http://zepy.momotato.com/2009/05/28/...nned-in-japan/

To be honest once it got on the JP media frenzy it was only a matter of time before the ban came.
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Old 2009-05-28, 11:10   Link #6
blitz1/2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serenade_beta View Post
This is the correct link:
http://news.tbs.co.jp/newseye/tbs_newseye4143799.html

Basically, to sum it up, all creation and selling of 凌辱-type eroges have been forbidden now, since people (like England) are fussing over it. There goes one part of the eroges that exist, huh.
Just in case someone doesn't know, 凌辱-type eroges are the ones where you rape the characters, train them, etc... The ones where you treat females "violently".
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
...
FUZAKERUNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! KUSOGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAA!

---
The message from Moonphase worries about what will happen to Bad Ends of that type for SF and Fantasy type games, etc . If such Bad Ends are removed and stuff, the games will start to look similar to each other and etc...
Ok, now it's getting retarded. We already had those Feminists (should kill them all one day) forcing the ban on Rapelay. Now we have this!!!

Japanese companies should just show the finger to those stupid Europeans and Ignorant Moralist Groups and say, "GTFO out of my country, not your game, too bad."

serenade, give us some examples of titles belonging to the 凌辱-type.
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Old 2009-05-28, 11:15   Link #7
serenade_beta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izmosmolnar View Post
Yeah I just read it here in the forum by the "general chat" section. (sorry for metalinking)
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...48#post2421748

To be perfectly honest, I find it sad, how overboard the whole thing went.
Ah~, thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by outlawed View Post
Zepy has covered this a couple times since the controversy started.

http://zepy.momotato.com/2009/05/09/...apanese-media/

http://zepy.momotato.com/2009/05/28/...nned-in-japan/

To be honest once it got on the JP media frenzy it was only a matter of time before the ban came.
And now it comes... huh...

Quote:
Originally Posted by blitz1/2 View Post
serenade, give us some examples of titles belonging to the 凌辱-type.
Well, there are plenty. If you look, there are quite a number of creators that focus on these types.
Ai Shimai, that one created by Leaf... Kusari, was it?, about every single game with Saimin in it, Futago Reijyou, Shakkin Shimai 1, Blackmail... was it?, etc., etc, etc., etc... That's about all I can think of right now off the top of my head...
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Old 2009-05-28, 11:29   Link #8
izmosmolnar
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Actually, they could use a loophole and put a disclaimer at the beginning of every game, that actually every sexual encounter is not intended to portrayed as rape, they are consensual relations, where the interested parties are roleplaying Sadomasochism.
If only it could work so easily like that... :/

Anyway I hope those clever guys will come up something. I don't like how it limits down the Eroge section.
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Last edited by izmosmolnar; 2009-05-28 at 12:19. Reason: typo due to being sad
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Old 2009-05-28, 11:52   Link #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izmosmolnar View Post
Actually, they could use a loophole and put a disclaimer at the beginning on every game, that actually every sexual encounter is not intended to portrayed as rape, they are consensual relations, where the interested parties are roleplaying Sadomasochism.
If only it could work so easily like that... :/

Anyway I hope those clever guys will come up something. I don't like how it limits done the Eroge section.
Well, what they're really talking about, as far as I can see, is just limiting what will get approved/rated by the ratings board, and sold in normal retail stores. But I suppose this doesn't stop the games from being sold as doujin works through unofficial channels. It probably also doesn't affect direct online distribution either. As far as I've seen so far, this isn't a new "law" (yet?), it's a new policy decision.

The main thing is that this is obviously a move to bury the issue for a while and at least wait for things to blow over. This is appeasement to the "anyone around the world can buy these games right now over the Internets!" panic. Any new laws or official policies would take time to be drafted, approved, and take effect, and would need a lot more definition than just the vaguley-defined points being raised at the moment. But this is a very political reaction; you take it down for now while you figure out what the next step is, and eventually a new balance is found. I don't think anyone would jump to the conclusion that this is the end of this entire subset of the industry, but they probably do need to find a new approach.

I feel somewhat obliged to say that I personally have some... less-positive feelings about this particular sub-genre (i.e. I personally can't stand it at all), but I don't think the broad censorship is the ideal answer either. We'll see what happens...
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Old 2009-05-28, 12:39   Link #10
izmosmolnar
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The main problem I see now for most of the english speaking western VN players (those without Japanese knowledge), that due to japanese games are now labelled as "perverted" and "rapist", even less companies are going to attempt to officially translate Visual Novels in english (not like there are many now to be honest...), because those people who are completely new to the genre will immediately associate such games with such a notorious sub-genre after that "scandal".
I mean most of us here probably know that a huge percentage of the VNs don't even touch such aspects. However IMHO a "VN-virgin" is not going to listen to the full explanation about the genre, and he probably immediately going to dismiss the idea of buying such game, after all the negative "fame" going everywhere.
And that hurts business to a certain degree, which affects me, even though I'm not a fan of that genre either (yeah I know, I should go study japanese, but the problem is, I can't learn any more foreign language, without forgetting one I already know).

It's not like there are many official companies doing english VN localizations, but it affects all of them, regardless of what games they are translating. I believe with all the commotion that issue raised, less newcomers are going to be interested in such games.

---
I've also read some comments which seem to support your idea, whereas that ban is just an attempt to calm the rage down from the west, and after a year they will slowly quietly "forget" to be so strict than they portrayed it now. I hope it's true, and that solution is just a half-assed temporary decision.
---
Also another problem I see, if they are indeed scared that westerners can play their game via the internet, I fear they might conclude it in such a way, that they are going to try prosecuting fan-translations more vigorously. Which definitely would be a terrible move for most of the western players of the genre...
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Last edited by izmosmolnar; 2009-05-28 at 13:16. Reason: typo due to being a sad bunny
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Old 2009-05-28, 13:24   Link #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izmosmolnar View Post
The main problem I see now for most of the english speaking western VN players (those without Japanese knowledge), that due to japanese games are now labelled as "perverted" and "rapist", even less company are going to attempt to officially translate Visual Novels in english (not like there are many now to be honest...), because those people who are completely new to the genre will immediately associate such games with such a notorious sub-genre after that "scandal".
Well, this is really nothing new to the scene. For as long as anime has been around, it's had a false reputation of either being hardcore porn or "kids stuff", with no in-between. So I'm not sure to what extent this stereotype will hurt beyond the stereotyping that already exists. I think, on the positive side, the last few years has seen many bishoujo-game-based anime being licensed and distributed in English, along with the fan-translation releases (and in the case of Da Capo and Suika, official releases) of many more-mainstream games. So when someone wants to apply such a broad stereotype to the entire industry, there is a lot more easily-accessible evidence to point to. Closed-minded people will continue to be closed-minded, but I think anyone with more than a passing interest in anime/manga/etc. would have to ignore a lot more evidence to come to such a conclusion. (Besides, if people make those accusations, we can just say "oh, didn't you hear they banned all those?" )

Quote:
Originally Posted by izmosmolnar View Post
Also another problem I see, if they are indeed scared that westerners can play their game via the internet, I fear they might conclude it in such a way, that they are going to try prosecuting fan-translations more vigorously. Which definitely would be a terrible move for most of the players of the genre...
I don't think this move is really about Westerners playing their games. It's about the appearance of it being easy to get ("mainstream") and hard to morally defend from a "Western" point of view. Keep in mind the whole thing started with one of these games being listed in error on one of the International Amazon sites, so the perception was "now anyone can buy these games!" This is about burying things deeper underground so that it escapes the public eye. So now the ratings board won't rate them, which just means that they'll be "unrated" and won't be sold in mainstream stores. The impact on fan-translation (to the extent that there is fan-translation in this medium, which isn't very much) is not likely to be high unless they try to make a scene.
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Old 2009-05-28, 14:02   Link #12
izmosmolnar
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I still kinda find the situation similar, like some kinda Japanese humanitarian organization would suddenly decide (without any firm proof or study to support it scientifically), that the more violent bloodier Western First Person Shooters (FPS) are harming the japanese youth and young adults, because they are more inclined to murder in cold blood, due to the influence they get from playing such games. It's definitely comparable because such games are probably only popular on the same level (ie rarely), as the Visual Novels in the west. (Please note they sell such FPS on amazon.jp)

And suddenly due to the complaining of a Japanese humanitarian organization, the western governments would ban violent FPS games in the whole USA and Europe, even though probably most of the gamers are mainly FPS players (and a huge part likes playing bloodier FPS-s). I can't help, but find that silly, especially without providing any significant proof, that there are indeed some negative effect the game could cause.

edit: ok I intentionally exaggerating it a bit, you get the gist of what I mean.
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Old 2009-05-28, 18:28   Link #13
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This is really weird. Why would the Japanese care whether other western countries get mad at what constitutes an incredibly niche genre of games... that's not even in English!

If it's about the image of the country, I'm pretty sure there's a lot more about VNs that westerners don't particularly care about even besides rape. I mean, you think banging your imouto sits well with people? And that's the main heroine in Da Capo.
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Old 2009-05-28, 19:01   Link #14
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If it's about the image of the country, I'm pretty sure there's a lot more about VNs that westerners don't particularly care about even besides rape. I mean, you think banging your imouto sits well with people? And that's the main heroine in Da Capo.
That's a really, er... tortured analogy, I have to say. The issue here isn't "unpleasant moral themes", it's violence against women. Granted of course that it's fiction in all cases, but there's still not really much point belabouring the obvious distinction. They're not in any way analogous.

And again, keep in mind that the whole thing started because one of these games was made available in a foreign market through Amazon, and I don't think you're going to have any luck convincing people that it was a story-driven game where the language skills were of the upmost importance...

I sort of understand your points, but there is at least some validity to the concern as well. This is still a sensitive topic.
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Old 2009-05-28, 19:28   Link #15
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
That's a really, er... tortured analogy, I have to say. The issue here isn't "unpleasant moral themes", it's violence against women. Granted of course that it's fiction in all cases, but there's still not really much point belabouring the obvious distinction. They're not in any way analogous.
I don't see this as anything BUT a moral issue. It's fiction. It's not sold to kids. And the subject of rape as a way of getting yourself off isn't exactly a Japanese-only idea. I see this as more of just westerners treating anything cartoonish as "kids" stuff. And therefore think it should be held to a tighter restriction than actual porn or something.

Edit: Btw, this is derailing the thread. The subject should be moved to the general forum or something.
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Old 2009-05-28, 19:42   Link #16
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I don't see this as anything BUT a moral issue. It's fiction. It's not sold to kids. And the subject of rape as a way of getting yourself off isn't exactly a Japanese-only idea. I see this as more of just westerners treating anything cartoonish as "kids" stuff. And therefore think it should be held to a tighter restriction than actual porn or something.
I can understand why you might see it that way, but at the same time I can see why others wouldn't see it that way. I just don't think you can place a consensual relationship between adopted siblings on the same level as a violent rape simulator and expect people to believe they're somehow both a part of the same moral problem. And I don't think this has anything to do with it being "cartoonish"; the issue is more like they're trying to apply the Western standards currently being applied domestically to video games from elsewhere in the world by virtue of the fact that we live in a global market. I'm not trying to say that's right (it isn't), but I don't think this is some sort of "special" discrimination either.

And yes, I'm going to move this sub-topic to its own thread; I was already considering doing that earlier.

Edit: Created the thread, but I decided to keep this separate from the existing thread in general, since I see this thread as being more focused on the actual news itself (since it's here in the Games section). If another mod disagrees and wants to merge the whole topic merged, please feel free.

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2009-05-28 at 19:54.
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Old 2009-05-28, 19:45   Link #17
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Alright, to clear things up.

This is not a ban. A ban is a legal move, this is not a legal move.
There may be move by politicians in the future, but it's not there yet.

EOCS, the self-supporting censorship group for the adult games industry decided they are going to decide on a restriction on the subject. The meeting has not been held yet, that is slated 6/2.

EOCS members are composed of representatives from each adult game companies, and to pass anything there, it must have a majority vote.
They will discuss this on 6/2, and possibly vote. (Although it's likely that there won't be any decision passed yet on the first meeting).
There will be self-regulations of some sort, that's for sure, in response to the current events.
But it has to be a type of censorship approved by the majority of the members, who are there to represent the interest of their companies.

TBS most likely got a wiff of this from someone in the industry, and jumped the gun with "HOLY SHIT WE GOT A SCOOP! THEY GONNA BAN RAPE!!!"
Typical moronic press habit, that simply wants to sensationalize everything, instead of reporting facts.

So there you have it. There hasn't been ANY decisions made by EOCS, hell they haven't even had the conference meeting on it.
And even if they DID decide to regulate, this is a self-restriction for members of EOCS, and NOT A BAN. They're just people from video game companies, not politicians, they can't make any laws.

Anyone not part of EOCS can give such restrictions the finger, and sell things on their own.
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Old 2009-05-28, 19:55   Link #18
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I can understand why you might see it that way, but at the same time I can see why others wouldn't see it that way. I just don't think you can place a consensual relationship between adopted siblings on the same level as a violent rape simulator and expect people to believe they're somehow both a part of the same moral problem.
Hey, 'morals' can be defined as "things the people in power don't like".

So it's easy to see how certain people would try to put completely different things on the same level. People can convince themselves that anything is true.
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Old 2009-05-28, 20:05   Link #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
This is not a ban. A ban is a legal move, this is not a legal move.
There may be move by politicians in the future, but it's not there yet.

EOCS, the self-supporting censorship group for the adult games industry decided they are going to decide on a restriction on the subject. The meeting has not been held yet, that is slated 6/2.
Thank you for the clarification; that is indeed what I thought at first. It sounds like EOCS is vaguely like the Japanese adult industry equivalent to the ESRB in North America, and it makes all too much sense that the media jumped the gun on this story. That certainly helps put things into perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Hey, 'morals' can be defined as "things the people in power don't like".

So it's easy to see how certain people would try to put completely different things on the same level. People can convince themselves that anything is true.
Well, again, I can agree to a certain extent, but not entirely. By the same token, you could probably also argue that law is only an effort to legislate the morality of those in power. It sort of feels like walking on quicksand. You start getting into things like the Miller test and so on in terms of deciding what is "obscene" and what isn't... what a mess. My main point was that I can see why people would get more outraged over something like this than something like Da Capo. Just because they're both "morally questionable" doesn't mean they're going to provoke the same degree of moral outrage in general terms. I wasn't really trying to use that as justification for censorship though, as I said originally.
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Old 2009-05-28, 22:12   Link #20
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Who wants to bet Wacko Jacko T will be on this badnwagon within the next few months?
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