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Old 2012-11-16, 18:24   Link #81
Undertaker
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And on topic of Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang.

The genuenality of Liu Bei's kindness and royalty to Han is debatable. But Zhuge Liang was not overated. Anyone seriously about the history knows that.

Did he god deitified through RoTK and before, yes. But even before RoTK was writting, Zhuge Liang was highly regarded by many as politician, minister, strategist, and tactician.

There are too many would-be historian on net nowadays who grabs on the fact that Chen Shou commented in Three Kingdom that Zhuge's military mind is he weaker side and take is as that Zhuge sucks in military as well as the end result that his northern compaign ends without much success.

What they failed to realize is the analyistical side of thing that Shu was by far weaker than other two Kingdoms were and weaker/inferior does not equal to suck. I mean you take test for exmple. You got 100 for History and 99 on Math. Your Math ability is weaker than your History ability but by no way a 99 socre sucks.

And there are plenty of people of high talents and social standing from as early as Jin Dynasty all the way to Qing Dynasty when RoTK was written who consider Zhuge Liang to be one of the greatest tactician and strategist ever.

Heck, those naysayer grabs on a few lines said by non-military expert and conviently ignore that Li Shimin (Tang Taizong) and Li Jing, two of the widely considering military genius who lays the foundation fo Tang Dynasty openly considered that Cao Cao and Zhuge Liang to be the top military mind from the period in the record "Questions and Replies between Tang Taizong and Li Weigong"

Not only that Emperor Xuanzong of Tang dynasty's also established an offical temple for military leaders for Jiang Ziya. In that temple, Jiang Ziya was accomplish by the people who were considered top military minds in histroy and comtemporary (at time) call the 武廟十哲, the list:

On Right:
Zhang Liang - Han
Sima Rangju - Qi (Spring & Autumn)
Sun Tzu - Qi (Warring State)
Wu Qi - Wei=>Chu (Warring State)
Yue Yi - Yan (Warring State)

On Left:
Bai Qi - Qin (Warring State)
Han Xin - Han
Zhuge Liang - Shu
Li Jing - Tang
Li Shiji - Tang


The netizen who keep cling on this idea that Zhuge Liang suck also tend to be ones pro-Wei (specifically Guo Jia) and pro-Sima. Yet they always forgot that Sima is also on actual historical record that commented how much of a genius Zhuge was. They also love to ignore that historical-wise Gou Jia were not nearly the player he was shown in Battle of Guan Du or the compaign to the north against Yuan Shao's sons. And when you take those away, there really is not much else that Guo Jia did. Or the fact that he was a replacement for another short-lived Cao advisor, X Zhci.
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Old 2012-11-16, 21:36   Link #82
rantaid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
And on topic of Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang.

The genuenality of Liu Bei's kindness and royalty to Han is debatable.
If you bother to talk about Liu Bei's royalty line, it's pointless. Who really knows whether Emperor Guangwu (Liu Xiu) really comes from the Liu Clan of Western Han? who knows the real father of Ying Zheng? who knows the real father of Cao Rui? Do Emperor Chengzu of Ming, Yongzheng of Qing really fit to rule? i prefer to quote Deng Xiaoping ;

"It doesn't matter whether the cat is black or white, the cat that capture mices is the good cat."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
But Zhuge Liang was not overated. Anyone seriously about the history knows that.

Did he god deitified through RoTK and before, yes. But even before RoTK was writting, Zhuge Liang was highly regarded by many as politician, minister, strategist, and tactician.

There are too many would-be historian on net nowadays who grabs on the fact that Chen Shou commented in Three Kingdom that Zhuge's military mind is he weaker side and take is as that Zhuge sucks in military as well as the end result that his northern compaign ends without much success.

What they failed to realize is the analyistical side of thing that Shu was by far weaker than other two Kingdoms were and weaker/inferior does not equal to suck. I mean you take test for exmple. You got 100 for History and 99 on Math. Your Math ability is weaker than your History ability but by no way a 99 socre sucks.

And there are plenty of people of high talents and social standing from as early as Jin Dynasty all the way to Qing Dynasty when RoTK was written who consider Zhuge Liang to be one of the greatest tactician and strategist ever.

Heck, those naysayer grabs on a few lines said by non-military expert and conviently ignore that Li Shimin (Tang Taizong) and Li Jing, two of the widely considering military genius who lays the foundation fo Tang Dynasty openly considered that Cao Cao and Zhuge Liang to be the top military mind from the period in the record "Questions and Replies between Tang Taizong and Li Weigong"
By God who says that Kongming is a bad strategist?? even if i prefer Jia Xu for his 100% accuracy, that does not mean Kongming is bad!

Did those person really read ROTK or not?

Kongming invented Kongming Lantern, Wheel Barrows, and most importantly Bao Zi or Mantaou! If not for him,we will never eat any type of Dimsum! who is that ignorant people?? Dear God! even Zhongda always express his respect to him!


Li Shimin and Li Jing do praise Kongming ingenuity in crafting Military Formation, it does recorded in that military treatise, if i recall the 16 Stratagem, Way of General, and 24 Strategies is Highly praised by them. In fact, Six Flower Formation of Li Jing is based on Simplified Eight Trigram, I believe everyone know this, how could they forgot this simple fact?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
Not only that Emperor Xuanzong of Tang dynasty's also established an offical temple for military leaders for Jiang Ziya. In that temple, Jiang Ziya was accomplish by the people who were considered top military minds in histroy and comtemporary (at time) call the 武廟十哲, the list:

On Right:
Zhang Liang - Han
Sima Rangju - Qi (Spring & Autumn)
Sun Tzu - Qi (Warring State)
Wu Qi - Wei=>Chu (Warring State)
Yue Yi - Yan (Warring State)

On Left:
Bai Qi - Qin (Warring State)
Han Xin - Han
Zhuge Liang - Shu
Li Jing - Tang
Li Shiji - Tang


The netizen who keep cling on this idea that Zhuge Liang suck also tend to be ones pro-Wei (specifically Guo Jia) and pro-Sima. Yet they always forgot that Sima is also on actual historical record that commented how much of a genius Zhuge was. They also love to ignore that historical-wise Gou Jia were not nearly the player he was shown in Battle of Guan Du or the compaign to the north against Yuan Shao's sons. And when you take those away, there really is not much else that Guo Jia did. Or the fact that he was a replacement for another short-lived Cao advisor, X Zhci.

Zhang Zifang is given, though people nowadays seems forgot his importance.
Tian Rangju, who can dispute this matter? even Yan Ying seems to put his highest opinion on him.
Sun Wu, Is this need any explanation? his campaign defeating the bigger state of Chu is no less impressive, and even his order of strategic retreat always considered as brilliant.
Wu Qi. When they talk about Sun Wu's ingenuity, Wu Qi will always the next to be discussed. even Li Kui praised him.
Yue Yi- Kongming admire him along with Guan Yiwu.
Bai Qi - invincible, never lost any battle.
Han Xin, well... Liu Bang is kind of paranoid.
Li Jing , ha.. ha... no wonder.
Li Shiji? which one is this? during Wu Zetian? i only recall another general the likes of Li Ji.

I can not say i don't prefer Wei, but i don't think even those who admire Cao Wei and Jin even has the gut to underestimate Kongming. that is if i can say... an utmost crazy. only people who never read Romance of Three Kingdom and some of it's side material can give that kind of stupid opinion. as they say Ignorance is a bliss. they are contend with being ignorance with the truth. No one in Romance of Three Kingdom is a bad or stupid character....... except Mi Fang and Fu Shiren.

Not really. if Guo Jia have to do so much work, i say he is not genius. as Lao Zi says, those who are enlightened did not show their work (they show results). this is what we call as the Way. A genius is allowed to be lazy. i mean just look. during the northern campaign against the Yuan clan....

Guo Jia announce to use the Watching the Fire from a far; to let the Yuan brother fight each other.
Guo Jia announce to eradicate the Yuan brother , before they manage to place their foundation with the Wu Huan and Southern Xiongnu tribe.
Guo Jia prefer to withdraw the troops and let Gongsun Kang of Liaodong do the rest for him.

The brilliance in war is not destroying the enemies, but the highest brilliance in warfare is to subdue the enemies without fighting. such is the Art of War.

Even a narrow minded people like Gaozu of Han remarked; "The role of you, Generals is like the Hunting Dogs, while Xiao He is the Hunter."

I don't really know about Xi Zhicai unfortunately. perhaps you wish to elaborate?
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Old 2012-11-17, 01:55   Link #83
Undertaker
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Just to make sure, I'm talking about actual historical debate so RoTK doesn't count because it's fiction.

Well, the debate on Liu Bei is not exactly on his lineage. The debate are more on whether he is geniunely a benevelont leader or it was part of his act to gather support.

As for Zhuge Liang, have you ever been to Chinese forums, especially the ones that deal with Three Kingdom based games and works. The historical forums are usually fine, it was those other forums that are full of people who read a comment here and there and decides that Zhuge Liang is just a politician and a fine governer but is a worthless military tactcian and strategist.

Anyway,

Li Jing's ability is well documented and if they have to pick one from early tang, he would be the one.

Li Shiji is Xu Shiji, he is another of Xuanzong's general and Li Jing's competorary. Is pretty famous and most in fights on the frontier. Though is usually regarded a little less to Li Jing and there are others who I think in more deserving.

On 782 Tang Dezong fix the temple and add 64 historical generals/ military leader under the existing 11 (counting Jiang Ziya) which I think is a much completed list.


As for Guo Jia, his role was more of an advisor than actual tactician or a decision maker. I guess you can call him a strategist, but he is not a tactician.

In historical records he never once lead the troops or command a battle unlike Xun Yu, Jia Xu, Xun You, or even Cheng Yu.

And Xun You is on record as Cao Cao's head tactician and leading strategist during battle of Guan Du and Northen Compaign against Yuan Shao's son while Xun Yu, his uncle and was the one entrusted with Cao Cao's home base against Liu Biao and Sun Quan.

While Guo Jia did indeed advise Cao Cao on how to handle Yuan borther, the actual plans were devised and carried out by Xun You.

Xun You goes in detail on how to get the two brother to fight against each other and cut off their supply and aid from Wu Wan clans and from Liaodong. And actually Guo Jia didn't give advice on Liaodong, he was already dead by then and the one who predicted Gonsun Kang to kill the fleeing Yuan brothers was also Xun You.

In fact Cao Cao went on record saying that for the Northen Compaign the #1 contributor was Xun Yu for handle both internal and external affairs and secure the base and supply, follow by Xun You.

Xi Zhicai only appeared and mentioned briefly in history. Recommanded by Xun You and was said to be a brilliant tactician and strategist. He was a favorite of Cao Cao but died early and as Cao Cao looks to replace the vacancy he left, Xun You then recommands Guo Jia.
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Old 2012-11-17, 03:45   Link #84
rantaid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
Just to make sure, I'm talking about actual historical debate so RoTK doesn't count because it's fiction.

Well, the debate on Liu Bei is not exactly on his lineage. The debate are more on whether he is geniunely a benevelont leader or it was part of his act to gather support.

As for Zhuge Liang, have you ever been to Chinese forums, especially the ones that deal with Three Kingdom based games and works. The historical forums are usually fine, it was those other forums that are full of people who read a comment here and there and decides that Zhuge Liang is just a politician and a fine governer but is a worthless military tactcian and strategist.

Anyway,

Li Jing's ability is well documented and if they have to pick one from early tang, he would be the one.

Li Shiji is Xu Shiji, he is another of Xuanzong's general and Li Jing's competorary. Is pretty famous and most in fights on the frontier. Though is usually regarded a little less to Li Jing and there are others who I think in more deserving.

On 782 Tang Dezong fix the temple and add 64 historical generals/ military leader under the existing 11 (counting Jiang Ziya) which I think is a much completed list.


As for Guo Jia, his role was more of an advisor than actual tactician or a decision maker. I guess you can call him a strategist, but he is not a tactician.

In historical records he never once lead the troops or command a battle unlike Xun Yu, Jia Xu, Xun You, or even Cheng Yu.

And Xun You is on record as Cao Cao's head tactician and leading strategist during battle of Guan Du and Northen Compaign against Yuan Shao's son while Xun Yu, his uncle and was the one entrusted with Cao Cao's home base against Liu Biao and Sun Quan.

While Guo Jia did indeed advise Cao Cao on how to handle Yuan borther, the actual plans were devised and carried out by Xun You.

Xun You goes in detail on how to get the two brother to fight against each other and cut off their supply and aid from Wu Wan clans and from Liaodong. And actually Guo Jia didn't give advice on Liaodong, he was already dead by then and the one who predicted Gonsun Kang to kill the fleeing Yuan brothers was also Xun You.

In fact Cao Cao went on record saying that for the Northen Compaign the #1 contributor was Xun Yu for handle both internal and external affairs and secure the base and supply, follow by Xun You.

Xi Zhicai only appeared and mentioned briefly in history. Recommanded by Xun You and was said to be a brilliant tactician and strategist. He was a favorite of Cao Cao but died early and as Cao Cao looks to replace the vacancy he left, Xun You then recommands Guo Jia.

ROTK is 70% fact by the way, we can not dismiss it just because there is about 30% embellishment based on fiction. Even Chen Shou's SanGuo Zhi and Sima Qian's Shiji, Confucius ChunQiu's are considered biased by numerous scholar (mostly western, the eastern are already biased by their own background to give it fair judgment). Chen Shou regarded Cao Wei as the righteous from the way he treated the three empire of Cao Wei, Shu Han and Dong Wu.

it is true that he has better view on Shu Han due to his background, but please consider this; He write Cao Wei's ruler as Son of Heaven, Shu Han's as King and Wu as prefectural Lord. Most historian nowadays consider the three empire Wei, Wu and Shu as equal empire before each other. This is why this era were considered as Three Kingdom (or Three Empire, modern historian tried to correct this), not Cao Wei era; but Three Kingdom. we can put this at the same situation where Southern and Northern Dynasty, Five Dynasty and Song-Liao-Jin-Xi Xia era later continued to Great Yuan.

i Only visit China History Forum (CHF) but as a lurker. that is utmost ignorance, i mean how could Kongming does better when Liu Bei made a mistake during the battle of Yiling? Kongming and Zilong already voiced their opposition to campaign against Wu? many of capable Shu officer died during that campaign, like General Feng Xi and ... who was captured by Wei again? forgot.

oh... Li Shiji is a general during Li Longji? well my knowledge on Tang dynasty was not that good. I only remember Taibai and several poets during that era, not many generals.

Hmm... i don't think Guo Jia's merit is that invisible... i am sure i know one that i can argue but.... Regardless of that i can not dispute the importance of Xun You and Cheng Yu as field tacticians. if not why are those two brought to the front line during Chibi?

But i can say that Guo Jia's merit could be compared to Zhang Zifang and Chen Ping (though Chen Ping is more active in the frontline). in fact he can be considered as Gaozu's Li Yiji for Cao Cao.
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Old 2012-11-17, 22:11   Link #85
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No, what you don't understand is that ROTK had numerous reversions and even at it's earliest version it was during Qing Dynasty that is over 1,500 years after the fact.

Besides the 70-30 claim was by the writer himself. when you put that book against other sources that are considered as historical evidence, it's error rate is more 50-50 or even 40-60 with 60 being fiction.

The other record that you mentioned biased are at least been consider as historical evidence. Sure there are some conflicting facts but none of it are major enough or different enough to have say more than 3% error rate and most can be explained with logical thinking.

If you want talk about RoTK fine , we can stick to that, but the bottomline is that RoTK is not considered a historical record just like Three Musketeer wasn't consider part of French historical record.

Back on Guo Jia, I don't thin his merit is invisible either, but I do believe that at least the historical Guo Jia is also inferior to that one depict in RoTK and was certainly not the top strategist Cao Cao have. He won't even rank top three. He might be arguablly top five. (after the two-Xun and Cheng Yu and then it's arguable between him, Jia Xu, Sima Yi, Liu Ye, Zhong Yao,etc)
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Old 2012-11-19, 05:13   Link #86
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Oh... You mean about luo guanzhong writting rotk during ming period and then to present this story to the imperial court of qing , they edited and censored lot of thing to make it interesting and less boring? Of course everyone know that every starting reader were told of this anecdote.

well of course there are many glaring mistake like the wrong misconception of zhang fei, mengde, but more or less they can be reconsidered , i mean in tang taizong li weigong wendui there is an evaluaion of mengde's troop deployment skill as "narrow minded". But we can take it as grain in salt , why would we take it so easily?

Duma's write many good novel but he talked mainly about his fiction, while rotk used the chronological event as the basis. Had dumas preffered to talked about the history more not putting it just as mere background .... He will be placed at same level as homer.

Didn't zhong yao more of general? He defendd chang an during ma chao's rebellion. You are kind of unfair in my opinion. Of course liu ye do talented, but placing guo jia below him is kind of overdid it. I don't say that he is greatest.... Butnnot below jia xu i think. There is still sima lang who at least the same level of liu ye...

I think the level should be xun yu first, then jia xu, zhongda, guo jia, cheng yu, xun you, jia kui, liu ye , sima lang, yang xiu, jia chong,........ Well there are ithers but i don't remember.

And reminding you, chen suo also heavily edited his sanguozhi. He is contradicting himself in several biography of wei's general. Also he erased various background story and ommited some of them, arguing that as fictional.

It is easier to read zhan guo ce.
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Old 2012-12-31, 17:30   Link #87
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I think you selling Liu Ye a little too short.

In history, he was being said to have 佐世之才, which is only used toward the two Xuns for the Cao camp.

In addition while working under Liu Xun, he predicted exactly what Sun Ce would do but Liu Xun didn't listen and eventually lost to Sun Ce and force him to seek Cao Cao's and work under him.

Then he help Cao Cao quell various rebellion and is on record to go against many advice from Cao Cao's aid and in the end was proven he was right.

And he was the head adviser in campaign against Zhang Lu in Han Zhong and all he advises were again proven correct. The only time Cao Cao didn't listen to Liu Ye he suffered lost against Liu Bei and lost Han Zhong to him not even counting the death of Xiahou Yuan.

He was also the few that predicted the Battle of Yiling before it happened in Wei camp.

Later advised on how to treat Wu and in every incident he was correct.

Not only that he also knows talent and people. Those who he mentioned will betray, all betrayed or rebelled.


The guy has offered more advice than Guo Jia and was correct every time in his advice so I would still put him above Guo Jia, other than that, I'm pretty much agree with your list.
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Old 2013-02-14, 08:54   Link #88
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do you think i don't place any importance to liu ye? as descendant of guangwu of han , he is brilliant... however i felt that jia kui is more successful even if he is equal in talent with liu ye.

at this point i emphasize this because i see both cao xiu and cao zhen is much more capable then liu xun.

using liu xun as comparison is misleading.
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Old 2013-02-22, 14:52   Link #89
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c388 starts your long awaited massacre.

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Old 2013-02-22, 22:36   Link #90
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qinggang.... qinggang...
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Old 2013-06-07, 12:02   Link #91
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c393 ends 百萬千軍藏阿斗

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