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Old 2006-08-08, 18:05   Link #5081
blitz1/2
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What about Kira's N-field in the manga?
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Old 2006-08-08, 18:30   Link #5082
RM-FAN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blitz1/2
What about Kira's N-field in the manga?
Maybe can be a perturbant garden with much vines and with much dolls traped in there, like a spide-web.....SCARY, dont you?
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Old 2006-08-08, 20:49   Link #5083
Alu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost
Time for Alu to sweep in with her superlong post on her favourite doll ranking
You had to make me go back 143 pages for this didn't you
Anyway.., I know I haven't been on much lately.., sometimes I wish I could pop-in and out of places using the N-Field.., that would definitly make things alot easier

Anyway, on the favorite doll subject; I went back and found my old "small" post on them ^^.., but it wouldn't make sence for me to post this again.. so.., I am making a little change
Since we already know alot about Kira.., I belive I should place her in the list aswell, thus naturaly she will take someone else's place.., since I realy like her type of character too.

Hence, my selection is as follows :

The First.., of course.. could only be Suigin Tou !

Gin was actualy the only reason why I ever decided to watch Rozen Maiden.., I saw a few wallpapers of her and then started reading on how she was such a magnificent antagonist that I just had to see it for myself.

Needless to say I was surprised, not only at that but at her entire progress through the anime up until the end of season 2...; not many characters have such a complexed emotions which realy drives me to understand them...

So naturaly.., It would be impossible to resist Gin.

For Second.., I'll have to go with Suisei Seki

What an unbelivable character.., so beyond Devious and yet also so Shy.., its just alot of fun to watch her.., plus.., if there is any word that is probably bigger then the entire Rozen Maiden anime.., it has to be the "~Desu" that our dear Sui so loves to use

Third.., might shock a few.., but I'll have to go with Sousei Seki

Her role in the story progressed at a slow rate altough her emotions are what realy draws me to her, despite always beeing calm and serene, the feeling of self-devotion towards what she belives to be right is just outstanding.

She is yet a tragic character though.., for at the end she does realise that her choice was rong into taking part of the Alice Game.., yet.., it is too late for her to go back..; which realy makes her end pretty dramatic.

Fourth will go to Kira Kishou.
Kira from what we have seen in the manga realy displays a phsycotic caracter and will probably lead Season 3 into a much more darker tone then ~Traumend~ was...
The way everyone has been portraying Kira's personality is just perfect for these type of antagonists.., her own expressions & attitudes realy justify that of someone who is mentaly instable as we witnessed what she did to Hina's body.

In my eyes, these type of characters bring alot of development to the story.., and clearly Kira has been pulling the strings all along with Laplace.., even when we thought Bara was doing that.

Thus I am realy looking forward to seeing Kira in Season 3 and I am pretty sure that my expectations will not go to waste

Fifth... Shinku.

Altough it is known that most people who like Gin above all characters realy dislike Shinku , well.. I kind of share that feeling but all and all I have to say the story couldn't be done without her so..

Shinku is a very nice character aswell.., her emotions shifted alot from season 1 where she thought she had to fight to become Alice with no regrets of the others to when season 2 she became aware of the losses in battle and how it would be better if the Alice game never toke place.., and that realy built her caracter from a snobby aristrocrat to a much more sentimental Shinku inside.

Sixth.. Bara Suishou

Well.. she is the main antagonist in the second season, but as far as that role is will always (at least to me) remain more of a filler for Gin..., altough as her caracter goes, she is deeply silent, very un-emotional.., which well, lets face it.., realy suits her and is actualy what is best of her personality.

Altough, she does have feelings, she loves Enju very much and that reason alone is why she fought all the others, she wanted to prove herself to her father by becoming a better doll then any of which Rozen had created.

Now, for Seventh... I can't choose between both so..
Its Kanaria & Hina Ichigo

I kind of left the chibi's for last.. because well.., they're realy not what drew me to this anime.., altough they are alot of fun to watch.., I don't see the point of them apart from giving another type of content; which is not a bad thing though.

There where alot of scenes in which due to these 2 that we surely laughted alot, specialy in the "Stairs" episode from season 1 and the 3rd episode of season 2.

They both are tremendous clutz's, but despite this Hina does have a very sad ending.. which kind of makes me a bit sad to leave her so down in the list.., but all and all, much her like Kana are (like all the RM characters) good characters.., its just.. to me.. well.., my preferences are listed as above

- In the end.., my preferences still remain mostely the same
And all and all..

Looking at of the recent posts.., this one doesn't seem as big as before

But truth be said though.., you guys are doing a Great! work on those fan-fictions; I enjoyed Very much reading everyone of them, and like you all.. I still so wish for a Season 3 or at least some more information regarding it

Oh.. and I can't belive Flo again got the "mark" post ^^, this time for the 5k one

hmmm.. ah.., I forgot to mencione..
I got Solwy working on another Gin wallpaper as we speak , its taking alot of time to compleat, though.. from what I have so far seen.., Trust me! when I say you all will just faint when you see it
Or at least I know I will ^^
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Last edited by Alu; 2006-08-08 at 21:06.
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Old 2006-08-08, 22:18   Link #5084
Lost
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alu
You had to make me go back 143 pages for this didn't you
I needed a reference back to my own Favourite post.

Man I cant wait for Sol's wallpaper.
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Old 2006-08-08, 22:48   Link #5085
hizashi
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@ Lost

What I meant about absorbing all the Rosa Mysticae at once was absorbing them all in one course of one climatic battle which was what happened

Oh, about quantum mechanics, you're right. There are an infinite amount of scenarios but again, an all-knowing intelligence would know the probabilities of each of those scenarios eventuating. That's the key, not just knowing all the scenarios.

Causal Determinism vs Quantum Mechanics

Ok...I'm not quantam physicists and never will be . Anyway, the thing which bugs me about causal determinism is that if you knew all the information there was at any one particular time, you could theoretically "know" the future. However, there are things such as free will, which to me exists (I dislike to think that all my actions are pre-ordained from the moment of my birth) which are not absolute determinates. As such, there are only probabilities that a certain scenario would eventuate. Remember that Laplace was a mathematician and a astronomer first and foremost and mathematicians tend to deal with definites (for example numbers) and as such tend to ignore other substantive factors in our universe. Therefore, I've adopted a slightly different take on Laplace's Demon and instead of it being an oracle of sorts, is an intelligence who can see the probabilities of seeing an event occuring ala quantum mechanics.
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Old 2006-08-08, 23:17   Link #5086
Suiseiseki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Miko
HA! Desu doesn't bother me HA!
Spoiler for Shadow Miko because of length:


Quote:
Originally Posted by RM-FAN
How do you imagine the Dreams of Suiseiseki, Souseiseki and Kanaria? Good point.

The dream of Shinku is a Victorian Palace, Hinaichigo a Toy-Land and Suigintou a City in Ruins.
Suiseiseki's dream world would be of Jun feeding her whipped cream covered strawberries all day long in a sunlit garden.

Kanaria's dream world is easy to think of. Her dream world consists of a university where all the students truly believe she the smartest person in the world.

Souseiseki's dream world would be full of scantily clad women who resemble Suiseiseki saying desu.... Uh perhaps not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blitz1/2
What about Kira's N-field in the manga?
Kira's n-field is obviously located inside an insane asylum where the role of patient and nurse are reversed.


Call me crazy but could the Bastard Bunny be Rozen in disguise? We know the goal of the Rozen Maiden is to become Alice, but what if there can be more than one Alice? Alice may simply be a title like grandmaster is a title in the chess world. In this case, a Rozen Maiden becomes Alice when Rozen determines that she has matured to the point that she is an adult (i.e. she is no longer the immature little girl she started as but is a very caring and understanding woman).

To make the dolls work toward Alice Rozen has to, in one way or another, force the dolls to work toward the Alice goal. How does he do this? He poses as the Bastard Bunny so the dolls believe he's the enemy. This is where Kirakishou comes in. Even though she's created by Rozen she truly isn't a Rozen Maiden (Rozen never planned her to be a Rozen Maiden in the first place thus the reason she lacks a physical body). Kira's sole reason to exist is to make the dolls work toward Alice by force. Rozen Maidens will die (bodies will be destroyed but the roza mystica can't be destroyed thus giving hope the dead can be brought back to life) making the remaining dolls a tighter group (i.e. maturing) hopefully. It also means the dead dolls will take longer to become Alice if they are brought back to life.

If we look at how each of the Rozen Maidens' personalities have changed during the course of the anime, what do we see? They are all growing up maturity wise. Suigintou no longer kills her mediums because she's learned to love (but she has to stop hating Shinku for calling her Junk). Shinku is less demanding and less stubborn (I believe she's the closest to becoming Alice). Hinaichigo is less selfess though she's still has a very long way to go. Suiseiseki made the decision to become a pacifist though she has to learn to be less bitchy (I'm sorry Suiseiseki). Souseiseki is still sexually confu... I mean she was willing to sacrifice herself for her master (at least in the manga), while in the anime she's still partially blinded by her loyalty for Rozen. Kanaria still has a long way to go because she's also quite childish with that kashira-thing she has going on.

This might explain why Rozen told Shinku that there were other ways to become Alice other then killing her sisters. Though Shinku doesn't quite understand what those other ways are yet.

Can someone explain why the Bastard Bunny enters and exits the n-field through a vagina?! Or is the opening a clue? Perhaps the clue is when a doll has become Alice she truly is a different person maturity wise than she was at the beginning.

My head hurts now.
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Old 2006-08-09, 02:20   Link #5087
Lost
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@hizashi: Lol I get what you mean, and I too do believe wholly in free-will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suiseiseki
Souseiseki's dream world would be full of scantily clad women who resemble Suiseiseki saying desu.... Uh perhaps not.
I'm sorry, thats my dream world.

Quote:
Call me crazy but could the Bastard Bunny be Rozen in disguise? We know the goal of the Rozen Maiden is to become Alice, but what if there can be more than one Alice? Alice may simply be a title like grandmaster is a title in the chess world. In this case, a Rozen Maiden becomes Alice when Rozen determines that she has matured to the point that she is an adult (i.e. she is no longer the immature little girl she started as but is a very caring and understanding woman).
Unlikely, because to be Alice you need ALL the RosaMysticae. That means depriving the rest of theirs. BUT. That aside, I remember some talk about this maturity issue some time back, and while I dont think Rozen is BB, its quite possible that BB is an agent of Rozen, like you said, a catalyst to go hand in hand with Kira. I need to think on it to make further comment. I need sleep first.
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Old 2006-08-09, 03:19   Link #5088
Suiseiseki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost

Unlikely, because to be Alice you need ALL the RosaMysticae. That means depriving the rest of theirs. BUT. That aside, I remember some talk about this maturity issue some time back, and while I dont think Rozen is BB, its quite possible that BB is an agent of Rozen, like you said, a catalyst to go hand in hand with Kira. I need to think on it to make further comment. I need sleep first.
I completely forgot about needing all the rosa mystica to become Alice, which means my hypothesis about multiple Alices is debunked as far as I'm concerned. Though thinking about it, Rozen did say there are other ways to become Alice. It's possible he meant that one doesn't need the other rosa mystica to become Alice. But I may be wrong (hurry up Peach-Pit!).

I have 4 chapters of my fanfic nearly finished (they're still undergoing editing).
The name of the chapters are as follow:

Chapter 1: If Only It Was A Dream

Chapter 2: Shinku as Detective Kun Kun

Chapter 3: Suiseiseki's Relief

Chapter 4: Breakfast and Aftermath

Chapter 5: The Start of the Investigation (working title)


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Old 2006-08-09, 03:40   Link #5089
Lost
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suiseiseki
Though thinking about it, Rozen did say there are other ways to become Alice. It's possible he meant that one doesn't need the other rosa mystica to become Alice. But I may be wrong (hurry up Peach-Pit!).
Exactly!! Thats what I hate about trying to make sense of Rozen and Alice, stuff just dont add up.
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Old 2006-08-09, 03:58   Link #5090
kinkiger
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well lets hope there's Season 3 to clear all the doubts here ^^
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Old 2006-08-09, 04:24   Link #5091
grey_moon
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Oooo the point about BB being all knowing and god like (suffering from hang over here)... If this was the case then would Rozen be equivalent to Dr Frankenstein and the maidens are the abnormalities to BB's world and his meddling is him trying to restore order to it.

Sou's dream world would be of Rozen prancing around naked in the sunny field of flowers giggling like a girl... <- Gah what a horrible image....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost
Exactly!! Thats what I hate about trying to make sense of Rozen and Alice, stuff just dont add up.
Me too, but I put it down to my lack of ability to animate dolls
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Old 2006-08-09, 05:50   Link #5092
Lost
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon
Sou's dream world would be of Rozen prancing around naked in the sunny field of flowers giggling like a girl... <- Gah what a horrible image....
Not really, I can actually see that happening. Lovely.
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Old 2006-08-09, 07:28   Link #5093
the.Merines
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@Suiseiseki: I agree with you that an alternate (i.e., based on last episode) way/s of becoming Alice is out there. Maturing into a woman seems like a logical next step, but I don't believe that this is the final step. Strong character can't be the only key to becoming Alice. I don't know where to go from there, though...

I also agree that Kira may or may not be a true Rozen Maiden. The dolls knew there were seven RM. So, if Kira wasn't created with a physical body, could there be another Maiden out there?

Suigintou's dream world... In the drama CD, Suigintou's track talks about her having a dream where she's in a ballroom waiting for father to come and dance with her. I accept this as her dream...

Kira's n-Field... I'm not sure. I haven't been able to get my hands on Vol.6 and Vol.7 doesn't come out until later this month. Well I'm off to work...
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Old 2006-08-09, 07:47   Link #5094
Mincemaker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon

Sou's dream world would be of Rozen prancing around naked in the sunny field of flowers giggling like a girl... <- Gah what a horrible image....



Me too, but I put it down to my lack of ability to animate dolls
I think Souseiseki's dream world is a forest or sorts, with a bird which keeps shrieking "Kadzuki! Kadzuki!"

Oh wait, where did I see that.....
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Old 2006-08-09, 10:01   Link #5095
grey_moon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the.Merines
@Suiseiseki: I agree with you that an alternate (i.e., based on last episode) way/s of becoming Alice is out there. Maturing into a woman seems like a logical next step, but I don't believe that this is the final step. Strong character can't be the only key to becoming Alice. I don't know where to go from there, though...
Hmmm I have difficulty with seeing how some of the maidens could mature into a woman. For example Shinku's attitude and demeanor in my opinion is rather mature already, any more she would be going to the grandma stage.....

My opinion (which could have been stolen from someone else) is that Rozen saying that there other ways of becoming Alice is because they have outgrown the system he set in motion.

(I still have my doubts about Rozen being a good father as he Alice game seems so brutal and encourages the worst aspects of humanity)

I remember someone comparing the maidens to Saber Marrionette and how each Rosa Mystica was a certain aspect of a perfect woman. Now the thing is _what if_ they were right, but Rozen didn't anticipate that instead of each maiden having a single facet of a person, they all ended up with full personalities and their interperations of an experiment he created....

I think our main problem in any analysis of RM and the Alice game is we don't know Rozen's initial goals and reasoning.
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Old 2006-08-09, 10:13   Link #5096
Lost
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon
Hmmm I have difficulty with seeing how some of the maidens could mature into a woman. For example Shinku's attitude and demeanor in my opinion is rather mature already, any more she would be going to the grandma stage.....

My opinion (which could have been stolen from someone else) is that Rozen saying that there other ways of becoming Alice is because they have outgrown the system he set in motion.

(I still have my doubts about Rozen being a good father as he Alice game seems so brutal and encourages the worst aspects of humanity)

I remember someone comparing the maidens to Saber Marrionette and how each Rosa Mystica was a certain aspect of a perfect woman. Now the thing is _what if_ they were right, but Rozen didn't anticipate that instead of each maiden having a single facet of a person, they all ended up with full personalities and their interperations of an experiment he created....

I think our main problem in any analysis of RM and the Alice game is we don't know Rozen's initial goals and reasoning.
grey you really made me think with that post..

Remembering that the RM's have a long history of existence, perhaps it is as you said: they have outgrown the system he set.

My idea --> He initially created them with one personality each (Shinku being proud; Sui, Jealous; Sou, Loyal; Kana, egotistical) (again, stole that from your post, in bold), and they were like that, but at the start. The Alice Game would serve to combine those personalities thru, well RosaMysticae. Thru time, however, he found that these dolls could actually learn personalities, and add to their CORE self. And in that, they outgrew his expectations, becoming especially obvious at this time, JUST when the Alice Game comes to a climax. Thats why he realises it, and thats why he stops or fails to support the violent way, by telling Shinku that there are other ways.

In a way, the presence of the Alice Game looming does push that development of themselves, (else why the heck would they want to seek each other out) and so he may have realsied it earlier but fail to stop it at that time because he wanted that.. eh.. refinement to continue.

~~~

This is crazy but : Maybe, the Alice Game even serves for them (the dolls) as a purpose of existance, when the real purpose that Rozen wants is for them is to develop. I mean, "developing oneself" is hardly a reason for existence because one has to believe that one is already developed well enough, but, fighting, making an outward impact its a better reason for existence. But it is only a reason given to them. Lol crazy I know. Ah well.

~~~

Last edited by Lost; 2006-08-09 at 10:48.
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Old 2006-08-09, 12:45   Link #5097
Dark Steno
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_moon
Hmmm I have difficulty with seeing how some of the maidens could mature into a woman. For example Shinku's attitude and demeanor in my opinion is rather mature already, any more she would be going to the grandma stage.....
Dude, I would like to see that
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Old 2006-08-09, 15:35   Link #5098
the.Merines
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Lost, that makes a whole lot of sense (not sarcasm!). Elaborating on that idea... Maybe Rozen didn't actually want the Alice Game to take place, but he needed a reason for the Maidens to have a sense of purpose and a reason to keep in contact with each other through time. I guess I have a problem with believing that Rozen really is a bad guy. I think he only wants the best for his masterpieces...

Also, just a thought... Could Alice just be a dream that Rozen made up so the dolls would strive to be better people anyway? I mean, if God came down and told me that I was created to fight 6 other people, and that the other people possessed a certain thing which would allow me 100% access to Heaven... Now, I'm not religious at all, but if that happened I'd sure as heck want to fight them all. Now, if God also said that we 7 people would live immortally with periods of sleep, I'd surmise that we would not always be awake together. God would say "that's right, and you must not fight until all of you are awake." In the mean time I would want to be a super-good person, with the ultimate hope that I would meet God again and live in a perfect world (Heaven).

Even if I died and God told me that I didn't have to fight and that there is no guaranteed entrance to Heaven, I'd still get into Heaven because I'd been a super-good person all those years. That's a really odd comparision, but that's how I feel. That's why I feel Rozen must have a good heart. One day, one or all of the dolls could become the perfect girl without even realizing it.

And now, a little more normal WTFness...

Spoiler for tall images:
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Last edited by the.Merines; 2006-08-09 at 15:52.
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Old 2006-08-09, 16:06   Link #5099
Suiseiseki
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Rozen Grannies

Grandma Shinku: (searching around Jun's room) Dang nabbit! Where did I put my teeth?!

Grandma Hiniachigo: I ob em ~a o!

Grandma Shinku: Dang it, Hinaichigo. How many times have I told you not to put my dentures in your mouth?!

Grandma Hinaichigo: (Pulls Shinku's dentures out of her mouth and hands them to Shinku) Sorry ~na no.

Grandma Suiseiseki: (slowly enters with the help of a metal walker) Chibi-ichigo took my strawberry again ~desu!

Grandma Hinaichigo: I didn't take your strawberry ~na no!

Grandma Suiseiseki: (shakes her fist at Hinaichigo) If only I was younger I'd beat you up chibi-chibi!

Grandma Shinku: Are you sure the strawberry didn't fall in your Depends? (note: Depends are diapers for adults)

Grandma Suiseiseki: (acting insulted) De... De... Depends?! I don't wear Depends ~desu!

Grandpa Jun: (enters room and sniffs the air) Ugh. Someone needs a diaper change.

Grandma Suiseiseki: It's not me ~desu. W...w...why are you all looking at me like that ~desu?!

Grandpa Jun: The smell isn't coming from Suiseiseki, so she's in the clear. Hinaichigo?

Grandma Hinaichigo: I don't need diapers ~na no.

Grandma Suiseiseki: (with a evil twinkle in her eye) Shinku made a stinky ~desu!

Grandma Shinku: (acting upset and insulted) A lady of my caliber never lets body functions be known in public ~da wa.

Grandpa Jun: (smiling) Stinku... I mean Shinku... (he's hit with Shinku's diaper right in the face) Aww crap!!

Grandma Shinku: Never insult a lady ~da wa!

Grandpa Jun: (pulls the diaper off his face) Ewww. You had diarrhea!
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Old 2006-08-09, 16:27   Link #5100
physics223
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