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Old 2006-12-28, 17:18   Link #6521
Mandrake
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I'de like to strangle the damn Rozen, because hes not able to create the perfect girl "Alice' he decides for his daughters to chop themselves up and combine, to make one whole. The man pisses me off.
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Old 2006-12-28, 17:37   Link #6522
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I guess Kana fits the stereotype of a person who lacks confidence because of how she has to keep telling herself how she is the most clever etc.

But about Sui not really harming any of the other maidens... I think she has already shown us how much she doesn't want to hurt her sisters, by what she says. The way she fights also says that in her actions. I love the consistency in RM
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Old 2006-12-29, 01:31   Link #6523
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Originally Posted by Mandrake View Post
I'de like to strangle the damn Rozen, because hes not able to create the perfect girl "Alice' he decides for his daughters to chop themselves up and combine, to make one whole. The man pisses me off.
I actually wonder if Rozen actually told the maidens that they have to fight to become Alice. What if the Bastard Bunny told the maidens that the only way to become Alice is to kill, since BB seems to be the referee afterall.

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Originally Posted by grey_moon View Post
But about Sui not really harming any of the other maidens... I think she has already shown us how much she doesn't want to hurt her sisters, by what she says. The way she fights also says that in her actions. I love the consistency in RM
Yep, Sui doesn't fight to kill but rather to defend herself and her sisters. My little Desu is so moe!
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Old 2006-12-29, 03:28   Link #6524
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Originally Posted by Suiseiseki View Post
I actually wonder if Rozen actually told the maidens that they have to fight to become Alice. What if the Bastard Bunny told the maidens that the only way to become Alice is to kill, since BB seems to be the referee afterall.
After the OAV I'm starting to believe that the whole Alice game situation was manipulated by the Bastard Bunny more and more. Once S3 is over I would like to see a prequel explaining BB and how and what he is. Of course I would want to see any prequels about the maidens first
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Old 2006-12-29, 07:18   Link #6525
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Originally Posted by Suiseiseki View Post
Yep, Sui doesn't fight to kill but rather to defend herself and her sisters. My little Desu is so moe!
but my gin sama is more moe

*cough* actually thats a good point...did rozen even say to the dolls to murder each other? lol this somewat makes me thin of god and the devil ~ picture rozen as god and the bastard bunny as a devil...hew working overtime to make the dolls kill each other while rozen is up above...watching but not acting (just what i image god will do as well ) but only intervene whem something really abnormal happens...gin moving without a rosa mystica or when bara cheated to kill off some of the dolls ~
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Old 2006-12-29, 17:45   Link #6526
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but my gin sama is more moe
I'm sorry but the point isn't about our "forced" interpretation of anything. Doesn't matter who your or my favorite maiden is. The maiden who care's more about her sisters then anyone else from some where in the 1800's to now is Sui!
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Old 2006-12-29, 18:53   Link #6527
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^ and did i say that sui isnt caring? no...i know for a fact that she doesnt want her sisters killing each other...she would rather give up seeing rozen that for that to happen but it doesnt mean that she doesnt love her father...its just that she loves her sisters more ~ and it was just a fanboy~ish joke
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Old 2006-12-30, 03:52   Link #6528
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She's torn between her love for Father and for her sisters, so thats why she's satisfied in maintaining the.. stalemate they have now. As of S2's end, the stalemate they had.

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Mind you, why do you think Hina is so signifgantly weak in battle?

Her strawberry vines do little damage and seem more like a nuisance. She also cannot form herself a weapon like hte other dolls (Kana has her violin, Shinku has her cane, the twins have their gardening weapons, Sugintou and Bara have their swords)
It's a good chance that her seeming weakness is because of (1) her really soft personality, and (2) the fact that she's not the kind that normally wants to see other people hurt, or do the hurting. She does support the Shinku in her fight with her vines. But I think that Hina's character is one of those with the potential to turn around and go really really mad (like in the first volume of manga, with Tomoe), and really start kicking some ass (preferably, Kira ). I would like very much to see that happen. Hee hee, the underdog.
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Old 2006-12-30, 19:08   Link #6529
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Yo! ^___^

First post, couldn't resist sharing my views on Mr. Rozen and as for why Gin-sama was left unfinished and is Rozen really as big a villain.

This may be spoiler-ish, if you have yet to see both Ouvertüre eps.

1 - Having seen both eps. of Ouvertüre shedding some light on the issue I would believe that as an artist and probably quite eccentric one at that, it is quite likely that the reason for Gin-sama not being finished before the other dolls, save for Kirakishou is as simple as frustration. Many an artist who fail to achieve what they have pictured in their mind grow frustrated and move on to working on their other ideas that fill their head for only a moment and could be lost forever if left undone. In Rozen's case it is likely that he failed at creating a suitable abdomen for Suigintou, being the first doll of her kind. Seeing as there's many other failed creations in Rozen's workshop and also Enju showed Jun some of his failed creations and even he was obviously saddened by this, we can conclude that it can be heartbreaking to not be able to create the perfection that such a doll would deserve.

2 - Rozen moved onto other projects probably because, as Shinku had said Suigintou's blueprints were lost. No idea as for why, but it is possible that Rozen was unable to control himself after many a failures and ripped them to pieces. But as he obviously had a Roza Mystica readied for Gin-sama and having told the other finished dolls about having already made her (not telling names) it is likely that he takes great pride and loves all the Maidens and planned on finishing Suigintou taking time to make her perfect as she deserves.

3 - Unaware of Gin-sama having become sentient without a Roza Mystica, seeing as he's immersed in his ongoing projects I'd believe he was quite shocked to find Gin-sama has been lost.

4 - It is likely that the Roza Mysticae connect to Rozen in some telepathic manner seeing as he was unable to find Suigintou until she had been to Sou-chan's N-Field. And seeing as he is somehow situationally aware of his dolls' doings and was able to find Gin-sama again after Shinku beat her in Jun's dream world to repair her. Also, seeing as how happy Gin-sama was to receive her Roza Mystica that was hers alone to begin with, I'd think Rozen didn't consider a missing abdomen to be of any consequence seeing as his (I'd call Gin-sama a masterpiece) Maiden was quite perfect enough already, if not in body, but in mind; being able to walk on her own and all. Besides, if Rozen wasn't able to make a good enough an abdomen piece to begin with, how could he conjure one up without any measurements when he gave Gin-sama her RM at such a short notice?!? They both seemed happy enough.

5 - Unfortunately it seems as though Roza Mysticae are a double edged sword: while giving the Maidens a powerful life force and personality, with it comes also the negative traits associated with any living human-like soul. Gin-sama was childlike, innocent and all, but not very understanding without her RM, such a pretty smile she has too... But once she received her RM she became to realize that Shinku's motivations might not have been sistership, but pity...

6 - Long story short, Shinku's Ego-nation going against Gin-sama's world of inferiority complex they end up crushing each other's "I like you" - factor. Something that must have been quite horrible an event for Rozen to witness. Bastard Bunny however seemed quite amused by this....

7 - EEEEP loooong first post, don't hate me.... *cough* Back to theory. I'd believe that both Rozen and Enju are being manipulated by Laplace no ma, but Rozen seeing further into the scheme refused to fully co-operate by having his dolls destroy each other. Realizing this, BB and Enju, who's obviously easier to manipulate, set out to crush Rozen's creations to steal the show and created Barasuishou for this end. Obviously Laplace wasn't counting on Enju's creation to be able to hold all the RM within to become Alice... but as for how the heck did he manipulate Kirakishou enough to become his puppet remains to be seen. Why else would we see Kira dancing with Laplace instead of Rozen at the end of Träumend Unless Kirakishou's RM in the anime is used by Laplace in Barasuishou to strengthen it to be used in Rozen's creation.

8 - As for being able to manipulate the dolls to some degree I'd believe this double-edged sword of a Roza Mystica, somehow have their origins in Laplace. Shirosaki might be that mad scientist type of a person in the show, having found some ancient manuscripts for creating an ultimate "golem" (Alice) by uniting 7 aspects of a Roza Mysticae into one by some more or less obscure means involving dolls... or something along those lines. Having found his way into the N-Fields he sets out to create the 7 RM but not having the required skills to create dolls he manipulates Rozen and Enju to this end. Rozen making his maidens out of love, Enju out of envy. This would explain why Rozen's dolls have more of a good side, while Barasuishou is rather... soulless, probably just how Laplace would like all the dolls to be, just kill each other and be done with it. Bastard Bunny seems to enjoy the show anyhow even if his ultimate schemes may be delayed.

Think I'll end this here for now, as this is getting a bit too long
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Old 2006-12-30, 19:48   Link #6530
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Interesting theories, Kageitenshi, although I will bring up one contrary to yours.

I think that your description of Rozen as a "frustrated artist" is very apt. He wanted to create the perfect girl, "Alice," by means of a doll, but failed to be able to capture all the feminine aspects he desired in a single one, so he kept making dolls, each with different qualities (Suiseiseki's nurturing, Shinku's demeanor, Hina's cuteness, Kanaria's ingenuity and creativity, etc.) To combine these qualities in the right balance, the Alice Game was imprinted into the dolls.

However, I think that his shelfing of Suigintou goes beyond just the frustrations of a "failed project." Perhaps once he started making the other dolls, nurturing them in their beginning moments, he got the idea to keep an eye on Suigintou and see what she would do, seeing as how he had completed her dress and the lower half of her body. The events that Suigintou goes through in Ouverture were perhaps looked upon by Rozen as a test, through which he grants her a Rosa Mystica. She proved that she could live and grow on her own even without the proper parts or seeing the quite same destiny; something the other dolls are struggling to do. This is Suigintou's prominent quality that Rozen sees is needed as a part of Alice.
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Old 2006-12-30, 20:09   Link #6531
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Did cross my mind, indeed, but I found it to be less likely an option, as Rozen had "lost" the blueprints, like Shinku said it. Possible, but less likely... Seeing as Rozen doesn't seem to wish for her dolls to suffer, telling Shinku that it is her task to find out the other way to end the game, hopefully in a way that benefits them all.

Perhaps this had been told to her to begin with, but made to be forgotten by Laplace to have the game work his way. Perhaps Rozen only exists in a "prison" N-Field because of Laplace finding him too hard to manipulate, and isn't able to directly contact his Maidens to have reminded of this earlier. As in only being able to sense the Maidens' doings but not be able to contact them until they've become somehow "broken" and unfit to participate in the game. In this state they seem to fall into another field of existence not controlled by Laplace; due Laplace's reign over the dolls' N-Fields Rozen is unable to enter them freely.

Edit: Besides, would it matter at all if that would be the case whether or not Rozen had finished Gin-sama but not given her RM and see what happens then? Why would missing a piece make such a difference in terms of traits required for becoming Alice, as it is impossible for Gin-sama to become Alice in this state to begin with. Would it also not have been fair to have monitored Gin-sama closely enough to see that she's become sentient on her own and then giving her RM even if she's physically unfinished instead of having her suffer the consequences first. Wouldn't think Rozen is such a god figure as to have foreseen the events to come as a crucial part of Gin-sama's contribution to the Alice game.
There are others who seem to think of Rozen as a villain of sorts as well:See last comment by Hecate.
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Last edited by Kageitenshi; 2006-12-30 at 21:29.
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Old 2007-01-07, 23:29   Link #6532
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I just recently re-watched Traumend and there are a few things that I took better notice of this time around that gave me a better insight as to the beginning of the false Alice Game, mainly in regards to Souseiseki's motivation.

One of the biggest things that spurs Souseiseki into her actions is her chance meeting with Father in the n-fields. However, there are a few thinsg that don't seem to fit. Firstly, he doesn't make any interaction with Souseiseki, which seems odd as the man poured love into each doll. Second is how Barasuishou was very conveniently there to explain the situation to Souseiseki. But, most importantly is that his sobs are audible. We, the audience, never ever hear Rozen's voice, so the logical conclusion is that Souseiseki did not, in fact, see Rozen. She saw Enju made up to look and "feel" like Rozen. This is reinforced by Barasuishou's appearance, because more often than not she simply repeats what others say, so having her remember a few lines wouldn't be too hard.

I also rationalized a bit into why Souseiseki chooses to fight Suigintou first. On a surface level, Suigintou is one of the few dolls that Souseiseki doesn't have a good relationship with, who she doesn't consider a friend as well as a sister. Also, there's the fact that she has a score to settle with Gin for manipulating Motoharu and taking Renpika. Deeper than this I think that Sou chose to fight Gin because she felt that Suigintou would be an "even" opponent. Although Sou has a Medium in Motoharu, we never see her power up via his energy (I don't think we even see a ring on his hand,) which leads me to believe that she does this on purpose. Sou doesn't know that Suigintou has a Medium, Megu, so she seeks to defeat Suigintou using skill alone, what she assumes Suigintou will be solely using, as well. There's also the fact that she knows Suigintou's tactics better than Barasuishou, who she only just met. So, we can see just how twisted Sou's manipulation was, which only makes me feel more sorry for her.
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Old 2007-01-08, 08:16   Link #6533
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So, we can see just how twisted Sou's manipulation was, which only makes me feel more sorry for her.
There are those who manipulate (BB, Enju and maybe Rozen), those who are manipulated (Sou) and those who are not (Sui). It's a shame how Sou didn't get some of Sui's better traits as well, but then again she wouldn't be Sou if she didn't act the way she did...
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Old 2007-01-08, 13:46   Link #6534
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I never did think Sou had actually met father in ep. 8. Seemed far too convenient to begin with. It may be an image of Father, but not in any way related to what Bara insists on "Father is crying, because he can't find Alice." Seeing as how Shirosaki / Laplace asks Bara on how things went after she returns to Enju's shop, it is easy to conclude that Sou was being manipulated. She may be levelheaded thanks to her love towards her sister(s), but she's also the most determined to become Alice since the beginning.

If the dolls can remember the feelings of Father when they were given life, wouldn't they also feel any negative feelings? Even Gin-sama loves Father and remembers him as something positive, even if she didn't get the affection the other dolls did. I don't think they'd be naive enough to mistakenly think that Rozen's ambition, sadness or even greed, if there were any, would be something good. That is, if Rozen actually had such ambitions for wanting his dolls to become Alice by fighting each other, or thinking they're failed creations short of becoming Alice, like Bara tells Sou. I'd think the maidens' feelings towards Father is enough of a proof for him being the good guy in the show.

Even Enju says it in the very same ep. 8 "As long as you pour love into them, they continue to live" referring to dolls as he's telling Jun about the feelings involved in making the dolls. "Even if you are separated, even if you are far away... love remains."
I said in my first post that Enju's Barasuishou might be soulless or empty, because she was created out of envy towards Rozen, as a means to show him that Enju is no longer the apprentice, but a true maestro. I still stick to this statement: even if Enju loved Barasuishou, it wasn't quite enough. It seems to me that only before she's about to crumble in the last episode does he realize his true feelings for her. Bara actually seems like a real person for the first time when she was embraced by Enju during the last moments. He even begs her to get rid of the RMs so that she could still be repaired and live as a doll. Laplace's lies and half truths don't seem to have a meaning anymore in a lose - lose situation. That, assuming he was manipulated by BB "build me a doll worthy of Alice and you shall get to show Rozen how good you truly are" or something. Envy is a good motivator.

BB's words are just too convenient again; "it seems that the light of truth is too dazzling when shone on deceit... fun and games... new toys..." Sure hope for a third season. Then again, it may be a bit hard to come up with a whole new season with enough plot twists, as we have all the cards in our hands. Knowing they can't go and simply add more dolls or a new Laplace-like villain in the show and knowing just how annoyed fans would be if they'd just make pointless action scenes or concentrate on giving more "depth" to the less important characters in the show. Can't have an anime series equivalent of Star Wars Episode 1, rather see something as fulfilling as episode 3 was, even if it's not as many episodes.

BTW, if you look closely, you can see only 6 Roza Mysticae released from Bara, what happened to the last one then? Was it just as false as Barasuishou or is the RM an essence of the creator that vanished just like Enju did? I overlooked this earlier, thinking that perhaps Bara's RM was used in Kirakishou. Now it seems that her RM is gone. Still fail to see how Rozen could have lost Kira to Laplace if she is a true Rozen Maiden.
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Old 2007-01-08, 14:05   Link #6535
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When I read the manga, Hina is actually very strong, and her strawberry attacks are a lot more interesting.

I wish they hadn't made her such a weakling in the show.
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Old 2007-01-08, 14:20   Link #6536
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BTW, if you look closely, you can see only 6 Roza Mysticae released from Bara, what happened to the last one then? Was it just as false as Barasuishou or is the RM an essence of the creator that vanished just like Enju did?
I think that Bara never had a Rosa Mystica. We can see from Ouverture that a doll doesn't need one to be able to move and think. Otherwise she simply had a Rosa Mystica-like imitation. Notice that after Bara had defeated all the Rozen Maidens present in the N-Field where the final battle took place, she didn't undergo any sort of transformation, nor was her arm repaired; hardly what I'd call the "spotless perfection" which Alice is supposed to embody. She only ever had the six within her body, so in essence Bara never "became Alice," and broke before she and any chance at garnering Kirakishou's Rosa Mystica.
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Old 2007-01-08, 14:25   Link #6537
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Hina is still cute! Isn't that quite enough

Edit:
"I think that Bara never had a Rosa Mystica" Damned good point, would explain just why she's lacking in personality and all. Just like Gin-sama was much like an innocent child, Bara would be easily turned into the puppet she was. For some reason I had this memory of seeing Bara's artificial spirit in some episode, but a quick run through the series indeed proves she has none...
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Old 2007-01-08, 14:29   Link #6538
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Yeah, it does seem like Hina gets a bit more development in the manga. She also manages to send me into kawaii-fits in the manga that she wasn't able to in the anime. The scene of Nori holding her after Jun wakes up just about make me squeal, which would have been awkward since I was reading it on a plane. XD
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Old 2007-01-08, 14:42   Link #6539
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Shame I have yet to find translated RM manga and the fact that I'm quite broke is in itself quite enough to keep me from buying anything but food and paying for rent even if there are sources on the internet for all kinds of nice stuff, like a Gin-sama dakimakura.
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Old 2007-01-08, 16:09   Link #6540
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I think that Bara never had a Rosa Mystica. We can see from Ouverture that a doll doesn't need one to be able to move and think. Otherwise she simply had a Rosa Mystica-like imitation. Notice that after Bara had defeated all the Rozen Maidens present in the N-Field where the final battle took place, she didn't undergo any sort of transformation, nor was her arm repaired; hardly what I'd call the "spotless perfection" which Alice is supposed to embody. She only ever had the six within her body, so in essence Bara never "became Alice," and broke before she and any chance at garnering Kirakishou's Rosa Mystica.
I don't think Bara had a Rosa Mystica either. I think Rozen probably realized that he would have jealous rivals like Enju, so he made the Rosa Mysticas only be absorbed by another Rozen Maiden. Bara had none, and since she absorbed six Rosa Mysticas, she was not aloowed to become alice, as she was not a valid candidate in the Alice Game, and the power of the rosa mysticas destroyed her.
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