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Old 2006-03-06, 03:25   Link #161
arias
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Join Date: May 2004
Just as a comment, the title

"The Fabricated Spring" > "Pretend It's Spring"
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Old 2006-03-06, 03:39   Link #162
reinux
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arias
Just as a comment, the title

"The Fabricated Spring" > "Pretend It's Spring"
The episode talks about a fabricated spring, but the title 春と嘯 literally translates to "fake a spring" or "lie and say it's spring" or something along those lines.

So the title "The Fabricated Spring" would probably match the episode's content more in a literal sense, but I chose the title "Pretend it's Spring" because it seems to me that the author intended a sense of playfulness to the "fake spring" that the Mushi make, a sort of "ribbing" if you will.

That's sorta what I like about the series though, the subtle happy friendly undertone.
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Old 2006-03-06, 05:25   Link #163
Sorrow-K
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I didn't like Episode 16... as much. It ended very suddenly, and Ginko really didn't make a huge difference in this case (although I realize there wasn't a great deal he could have done). But, I felt as if this episode just went through the motions.... it wasn't nearly as interactive or engrossing as what we've come to expect.

There have been the rare few episodes of Mushishi that haven't impressed me as much, but the overwhelming majority of this series has been brilliant, so I won't complain too much.
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Old 2006-03-06, 05:34   Link #164
Lost
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Yeah I tink episode 16 was just a plain normal episode; we've gotten so used to recent wonderful episodes from Mushishi that a normal one like this drops us.. Still, had its good points. I would describe it as bittersweet (like most of Mushishi eps, but this one particularly so for me). Was sad how the boy had to carry the burden of his father's infidelity alone, but was nice how the mother could lead a happy life. And interesting too, how atho the Kagedama took memories away, it couldnt remove the habit of putting an extra meal out for the husband. Love again?

Perhaps I read to much into Mushishi's episodes You know Sorrow-K, I'm starting to think we live in the same GMT time-zone
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Old 2006-03-06, 07:39   Link #165
wao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost
Actually I'm hoping he will go back. Sad that he can't settle down. A girl that likes him, with a brother that can see, and admires, Mushis... Ginko's perfect family. Oh Well.

The Akitarou Daichi? Erm sorry, but who is that?
Er... The Akitarou Daichi. Well he gets praised a lot for his stuff but I don't think he's as awesome as, say, Hiroyuki Okiura Jin-Roh was teh ultimate winner .

I guess the director will be doing the last episode. It's sad that we'll have to wait a long long way for the next episodes... I'll miss getting to have a nice juicy ep per week.... sigh...
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Old 2006-03-06, 13:39   Link #166
questmark
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re: different fansubs....

As someone said before, it's wonderful that anyone has subbed this at all. For that, I am very grateful. All that's below is just my opinion.

I'm planning on ripping these on to some DVD's for myself to get them off my computer, so I did a reasonably thourough comparison of the 3 fansubs for the first 10 eps or so. This is what I found--


VIDEO-
ANBU and C-1 have, IMO, about the same video quality when watching from the couch on my computer monitor.
I think AF-F has the clearest pic with the least banding and blocking of all the fansubs, but I'm not sure if it's really making a difference from the distance at which I'm watching the show. Still, in re: to banding and blocking, sitting at the computer-- it seems that AF-F has the least of these artifacts.
Also, I found that the first 2 or 3 eps were not very representative of the video quality of the fansubs over the course of the whole show. Things sort of seemed to iron themselves out after those first few eps.

AUDIO-
ANBU and C-1 seem similar to my untrained ears. AF-F is definitely louder. Clearer too?? I don't know. Maybe. I definitely hear more, but I can't tell if that's just because it's louder. And I don't know if I were just to immediately turn the volume up on an ANBU or C-1 release, if their experience would be essentialy the same as listening to AF-F (seems that way to me, but it's hard to tell). Basically, I'm not sure about this.

TRANSLATION--
I think they're all very reasonable. I find C-1 the most literal, which perhaps means it carries the meaning the most intact. However, ANBU has, IMO, the most fluid, conversational translation, with some slang like "stop freaking out", etc. and just a generally more "comparative cultural experience" attitude about translating-- it doesn't seem as literal as the C-1 translations. AF-F also has a very nice translation that catches a lot of subtlties (that's not meant to be subtitles, but rather... that which is subtle), but it's more... refined and esoteric sounding.

ANBU doesn't sub the intro song. Both C-1 and AF-F do.

FONT--
I never thought this was very important to me before watching this show, but the truth is that I find ANBU's decidedly the most readable. C-1's is perfeclty readable too, but I happen to prefer ANBU's translation style personally. AF-F's font is just too small for me. I can read it, but my eyes get tired, and if I'm watching an ep at the end of the day from the couch, me and my wife have had, on occasion, a hard time reading it. ANBU's isn't _that_ much larger, but it's noticeable, and, to me, much much more readable. ANBU also include italics, and this adds a certain quality to the subs that I like-- oral emphasis is included in the reading experience, and they highlight when someone is thinking something by making it in italics.

FILE SIZE-- ANBU is decidedly the smallest, around 125-145 mb per file. C-1 and AF-F average around 175.

SPEED-- C-1 is generally the first out with a sub. Thanks so much for that too!!

Well, for myself, I eventually decided to dl C-1 subs as they come out, and then to go with ANBU-- the size is smaller, I can fit more eps on a DVD, the video quality is good enough for watching from the couch, and most importantly to me- I can easily read the subs from far away and I like their style of translation.

Still, they've all got their benefits. It's really more a matter of opinion-- what style of translation do you like? what clarity of video do you need? how good is your sound system? how good are your eyes? are you putting these on to DVDs for yourself? do you want the karaoke for the english language op or not?

Each of the fansubs seems to answer these in differently. I hope all of that was useful to someone.

Again, I wanted to thank all the fansub groups for working on this show. What a luxury to get to compare so many fansubs!! If any one of these groups had been the only one to fansub this show, I'm sure I would have been perfectly happy with only having their fansub. Everything I spoke about above is really just getting down to the real nit-picky, nitty gritty stuff that largely boils down to opinion, details of your sound system and screen, and your personal preferences. They're all well done.
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Old 2006-03-06, 16:34   Link #167
DeathWolf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by questmark
VIDEO-
ANBU and C-1 have, IMO, about the same video quality when watching from the couch on my computer monitor.
Did you check the pictures i put up? I think that whichever you might like, they are very different, since c1's much more "cleaned". While they are both in their style, i think the encoded looks are very different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by questmark
I think AF-F has the clearest pic with the least banding and blocking of all the fansubs, but I'm not sure if it's really making a difference from the distance at which I'm watching the show. Still, in re: to banding and blocking, sitting at the computer-- it seems that AF-F has the least of these artifacts.
If you see the banding... you should be able to see the previous difference, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by questmark
Also, I found that the first 2 or 3 eps were not very representative of the video quality of the fansubs over the course of the whole show. Things sort of seemed to iron themselves out after those first few eps.
Indeed, which is why my comparisons showed 5,13 and 15.

Quote:
Originally Posted by questmark
AUDIO-
ANBU and C-1 seem similar to my untrained ears. AF-F is definitely louder. Clearer too?? I don't know. Maybe. I definitely hear more, but I can't tell if that's just because it's louder. And I don't know if I were just to immediately turn the volume up on an ANBU or C-1 release, if their experience would be essentialy the same as listening to AF-F (seems that way to me, but it's hard to tell). Basically, I'm not sure about this.
I've been using a clean non-recompressed audio source from the raw... so that one should be pretty clean. I dont remember about c1/aff, they might have renormalized the sound.
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Old 2006-03-06, 18:06   Link #168
questmark
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I did look at the pics you put up, which were very illustrative of the differences between ANBU's and C-1's video, and I agree, there is a difference between your video and C-1's, and it's exactly as you said. I think C-1's has a "sharper edge" to their colors, rather than the softer fades and gentler gradients that ANBU's has. I'm not sure what process they were using, but from my experience cleaning up some video (which is limited, but I've done it with Avisynth a couple of times), it looked like they ran it through a smoothing filter of some sort. I've run something through the mtoon filter once, and I thought it looked very similar to the C-1 video-- the slightly "dry-watercolor" look of the video, with sharper edges, and the black lines sharpened and darkened. But of course, I have no idea what C-1 really did. I didn't go into all that in my original post, because I thought it would be the type of info that was too specific or technical (and therefore not of interest) for some people. Also, I thought your pics weres simply far more helpful than my explanations ever could be-- but perhaps this discussion will cue people towards what to look at, in regards to differences.

Thinking on this, I wish the AF-F video stills were included in the links you gave-- that would be an even more complete comparison. But I don't know how to build those sort of links.... Pooh!

Of course, as you said before, it's really a matter of preferences. I don't think one is inherently better than the other. Still, I often wonder what the "original" video of the show was like, since we have three different fansubs available, which are all (I'm assuming) coming from the same source (although perhaps the raws come from different places after all??), and yet they're all a bit different when you look at them closely. Also, it's nice to know that ANBU's audio comes from a clean, non-compressed audio source. I wonder what's different about AF-F's audio-- I thought perhaps they had normalized their audio as well. I can understand the subtlties of subtitling and translating, but the difference in audio/video is interesting. Different encoding programs? Some usage of filters? VBR vs CBR encoding? And why is ANBU's file size so much smaller? Is that simply because of no karaoke? Or was some type of multi-pass encoding used to shrink the file size and keep the quality up?

Also, going back to my earlier statements about how C-1 and ANBU look very similar from 10-15 feet away-- for me, it just seems that way. As a lover of quality video, I can appreciate the differences betwen the two fansubs when you give examples like the ones you gave above, and I happen to prefer the style of video image ANBU is putting out, but from the distances at which me and my wife are watching the show, in truth, the video seems the same to me about 90-95% of the time. There are definitley times during very dark or bright scenes when some differences really show between the videos (which I can see from the couch).... but my eyes just aren't good enough, perhaps, to see all the minute ongoing differences from the couch. So, I still hold by my earlier statement, which is that, IMO, __functionally__ as a viewing experience not in front the computer, the video of the ANBU and C-1 fansubs come off pretty similar. Just my opinion though.

You're still right, of course, about the objective differences as seen from in front of the computer, which are easily noticed from the comparisons you posted.

Also, I would still really like to know how C-1, ANBU, and AF-F got their respective video and audio to where they're at now. I don't know if that's some sort of trade secret by each fansub group that they don't like to share.... but I thought I'd ask. It'd be nice to know what is actually, truly different about each fansub, in respect to audio and video.

Thanks, BTW, for posting the comparison pics. I don't know if I ever said that.
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Old 2006-03-06, 18:21   Link #169
kujoe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223
As for me, I watched only the first episode but have up to the third. Why don't I watch it? I'd rather complete the series and watch it all in one to three seatings. I don't want to wait for the next episode to come. The waiting is tortuous.
Wow. I don't about you, but there's NO way I can watch a lot of it on one sitting. I always have to let one or two episodes settle down in me, maybe watch something else to balance it out, and then I'll be looking forward for the next one to arrive. For me, this is one of those shows that I prefer to take slowly, piece by piece.

Two epsiodes are probably the most I can handle in a week. I just can't find the mood to watch Mushishi beyond two episodes straight.

Last edited by kujoe; 2006-03-06 at 18:36.
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Old 2006-03-06, 18:29   Link #170
reinux
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kujoe
For me, this is one of those shows that I prefer to take slowly, piece by piece.
Short stories
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Old 2006-03-06, 19:18   Link #171
DeathWolf
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What i know is that all 3 groups use the hi-vision source, which is (originnally) an hd broadcast.
From most of the raws i saw the look was pretty similar, with very soft gradients and detailed backgrounds(which imho c1 gets away from)(Look at many of the screenshots, like some of the snow ones in 15, the c1 encode lost most of the snow by the "cleaning").
I think i stayed in the objective of being "as close as close to the original as possible".

As for filesize, no i didnt use any particular trick, just gentle filtering, and no exessive sharpening, to keep the look as natural as it was in the raws. I never forced much size. My strategy was to keep a quality as constant as possible, at pretty high settings, whether or not final size was constant because i really appreciate the show.
Also note that karaokes dont raise much filesize... especially when there's only one for op. Something like our bigger font would be more likely to raise filesize more.

Note that the raws of mushishi(at least those i have seen and those i use) are pretty messy with noise/problems, but they are also gorgeous of small details.

All of that said, it's up to the watcher to choose in the end^^

NOTE: also please keep in mind i'm an encoder, that i use calibrated widescreens and highresolution... so it makes me much more picky

EDIT1: another thing, about colors, i'm making everything so that colors are matched to official documents
EDIT2: to quickly answer your question on filtering used, i removed as much compression noise possible as possible(aka blocking, gibbs quantization noise) without removing the gorgeous detail, i also removed some of the haloing that is inherent to most tv broadcasts, i gave a very gentle sharpen to enhance edges and make them cleaner, i also did some minor temporal stabilization so as not to ahve too much flicker, and finally some color corrections.
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Old 2006-03-06, 22:57   Link #172
questmark
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Thanks for such a quick reply regarding the encoding/filtering process. It's great to hear how much detail you go into regarding the process of creating the fansub-- how much you care about the quality of the end-product really comes through. Re: temporal filtering-- I've been told that's a good way to get file size down, while retaining the same quality... perhaps that's a bit of the answer I was looking for. Basically though, many many fansubs run around 175 mb or more for an avi file. That seems to be pretty normal. I'm just impressed/surprised that the quality of your video still seems very high, even though your file sizes are substantially lower than those I normally see. .......strange.....

As a side note, do you think ANBU will ever re-do the video in the first 2-3 eps, to make the quality more comparable to what you are currently putting out, after the show wraps up the 20th ep? It would be great to see, as I like your subs so much. Of course, whatever happens happens (or doesn't, for that matter ) But I figured I'd ask, since we've been talking about video quality so much. I've tried filtering it a bit myself (on eps 1 and 2), but I can't seem to get the banding and blocking out. Pooh. Obviously, I should just simply get better at post-processing my video. :P
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Old 2006-03-06, 23:20   Link #173
Lost
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kujoe
Wow. I don't about you, but there's NO way I can watch a lot of it on one sitting. I always have to let one or two episodes settle down in me, maybe watch something else to balance it out, and then I'll be looking forward for the next one to arrive. For me, this is one of those shows that I prefer to take slowly, piece by piece.

Two epsiodes are probably the most I can handle in a week. I just can't find the mood to watch Mushishi beyond two episodes straight.
Same with me. Watching alot in one sitting isn't so right for me cause I wont enjoy it as much, alot of the nice, smaller details of an individual episode are lost when I cram episodes. Not only for Mushishi, many others as well (when i do that the Anime tends to become empty). Its like I cant remember each of the episodes after, like they are all bunched up together in my collective memory. I like to watch one to 3 episodes, the spend the rest of the day or week mulling over them And I think Mushishi especially is an Anime that should be taken slowly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by questmark
I think they're all very reasonable. I find C-1 the most literal, which perhaps means it carries the meaning the most intact. However, ANBU has, IMO, the most fluid, conversational translation, with some slang like "stop freaking out", etc. and just a generally more "comparative cultural experience" attitude about translating-- it doesn't seem as literal as the C-1 translations.
Exactly what I was trying to say in my earlier post, thanks for putting it so clearly.

Wow guys, looking at the power-posts above, I feel safe watching Anime that is in such capable hands
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Old 2006-03-06, 23:55   Link #174
DeathWolf
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@questmark:
i guess dvdrips could work, the show is a marvel and deserves it after all^^
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Old 2006-03-07, 00:17   Link #175
RuNE
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It appears DW sacrificed the cleanup of the cell animation in favor of keeping the amazing BG's this anime has to offer.

C-1 has some very clean cells, but obviously their BG's lack the original details. (This washed out look ironicaly gives it its own artistic aspect, but in the end still steer's away from the original intention of creators)

I want ANBU backgrounds....with C-1 foregrounds. "waah waah"

Need to make a tough decision and im not sure what to go with. =\ I'm writing these to DVD...
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Old 2006-03-07, 01:43   Link #176
Siye
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A quick question... has episode 20 aired in Japan?
Thanks.
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Old 2006-03-07, 02:44   Link #177
Emil Scherbe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siye
A quick question... has episode 20 aired in Japan?
Episode 20 筆の海 "Fude no Umi" A Sea of Brushes
Fuji TV (Tokyo) Mar 11 27:45-28:15
Kansai TV (Osaka) Mar 18
Tokai TV (Nagoya) Mar 22
TV Nishi Nippon (Fukuoka) Mar 22 26:15-26:45
TV Shin Hiroshima (Hiroshima) Mar 22 25:35-26:05
Hokkaido Bunka Hoso (Sapporo) Mar 31 26:30-27:00
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Old 2006-03-07, 04:41   Link #178
reinux
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RuNE
I want ANBU backgrounds....with C-1 foregrounds. "waah waah"
I wonder if that's technically doable... I don't know anything about encoding but that'd be cool ._o
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Old 2006-03-07, 05:40   Link #179
wao
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I watched ep 19, I thought it was quite good. I wasn't very impressed by the story in the manga but the anime episode made me like it more. I managed to appreciate the whole "like it even if it's not there" thing, even thoguh it still seems a little incomplete to me. I liked the bit where
Spoiler:
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Old 2006-03-07, 08:20   Link #180
DaFool
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Yeah ep 16 was solid, but not a winner ep. Ep 15 shows that you can still be a no-nonsense guy and still have plenty of opportunities for romance.

Ginko is now officially my role model for life, also precisely because his lifestyle of always moving places since he was a child, meeting people, getting involved in their lives only to bid them farewell, precisely mirrored mine as a TCK. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_culture_kid)

I'd say Ginko is a romantic character, the type of romantic as in not-idealized but realistic...a solid literary character. Romance, Ginko-style! ^_^
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