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Old 2006-09-25, 04:13   Link #1041
npal
I desire Tomorrow!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sixth Layer of Celestia
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Well, kids, it's Elis turn again today, there are some hours left to vote. For details, visit the Saimoe Tournament thread in General Anime

Last edited by npal; 2006-09-25 at 04:33.
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Old 2006-09-25, 08:44   Link #1042
Searcher
RRR/Kotori/Tessa Servant
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Netherlands, Rotterdam
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3
Always assume game patches does not exist
A man can dream, cann't he!

Oh well, time to learn japanese. Or just play the game blind or with a walkthrough.

Does someone know where i can find a walkthrough for the game
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Old 2006-09-25, 09:14   Link #1043
dojikyo
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
No one else is spoiler tagging so here goes...
Hiroki's motivations aren't that hard to understand ... Elise is important to him, he doesn't want to lose that bond. In the end, that simply is more important to him and we grieve for Kiri. But the bond with Elise has been portrayed as totally platonic from Hiroki's side throughout the series so the end eyecatch becomes a "wtf?" with no lead up. A few extra minutes of scenes scattered throughout the series or even an occasional blush from Hiroki would mitigate that.
There were actual a couple of moments which I had previously posted. They gave quite a few moments. No lead up and not enough lead up are two different stories.

Btw, although real time only a second between the ending and the epilogue, it is hard to guess how much time actually passed. All of the prior images imply that some (the exact amount is unknown) has passed.

I still stand by my original assertion. They gave as many hints as they thought they could without giving away the twist. I would have far preferred that they went with Kiri + Hiroki and Hiroki becoming a teacher. Theending is a decent twist but unnecessary ending.

edit: Read a couple of pages to see what has transpired since the last time I visited this thread. I can't see too many similarities between this and Shuffle except for being adaptations of an eroge. Canvas 2 had good writing ( with pretty bad animation) with some lead up to twist that was unnecessary where as Shuffle had a crappy plot (with good animation and character designs) and the ending portrays Asa as an idiot in comparision to the playful yet mature Asa from the previous episodes.

2nd edit: Read DragonKain3's sig. I vote for Honey & Clover as best anime since winter of 2005. If referring to best debut episode, I would go with NHK. For a comedy that was one creepy episode.

Last edited by dojikyo; 2006-09-25 at 09:55.
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Old 2006-09-25, 12:56   Link #1044
Searcher
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I have to agree with dojikyo, they gave us hints about the ending.

After thinking about why they didn't give us insight into Hiroki mind, i think that is because it would spoil the story to much and they wouldn't know how to explain hiroki's behavour towards kiri.
First dreaming about being married to kiri, but doing nothing to further their relationship with kiri.

They probally thought that keeping hiroki's mind a mystery was the best thing, otherwise it would have caused to many plot problems (like shuffle!).

I am still amused about people's reactions towards the ending with elis/hiroki in bed.
In what part of the world doesn't 16 years old boys/girls have sex.
And don't give me the age difference, true love overcomes them.
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Old 2006-09-25, 15:03   Link #1045
Vexx
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
You've missed my point then if you think my problem is with them being in bed... its being in bed when the main series failed to provide much in the way of clues that Hiroki thought about her that way. Please provide some examples of these hints that Hiroki thought that way about her. Otherwise I'm just hearing some rationalization here for missing relationship development.

I think Dojikyo is spot on about Shuffle! in that Canvas 2 was much better and cohesive. The writers made it clear why he did not choose Kiri in the end... but I'm just not seeing any examples where Hiroki's caring for Elise was anything more than platonic -- examples, please?

Last edited by Vexx; 2006-09-25 at 15:14.
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Old 2006-09-25, 15:22   Link #1046
Searcher
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I didn't mean you specificly you Vexx, just some people's reaction that they were having sex (not just only on this forum).

I would love to give you examples, but i have to go to work soon, so i don't have the time now.
Maybe Dojikyo can give you some hints, otherwise i will post mine tommorow.

Part of the problem is as you said that hiroki's relationship with elise is platonic until the end.
So most of the hints is more storywise of how it would end rather than saying, hiroki showed an interest in elise.
Although he showed them in near the end.

It's a good thing you dropped "Soul link" Vexx, as Npal said, Shuffle! is a masterpice of storytelling compared to "that"
I had to turn mine mind of and just watch it till it ended.
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Old 2006-09-25, 16:10   Link #1047
Vexx
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appreciate it, I have to admit getting a little abrasive after dealing with people defending dreck like Soul Link as "great story" --- I found Canvas 2 pretty entertaining ... just that it seemed to be missing some developmental chunks that would justify that end-credit eyecatch resolution. So i apologize if I sound crabby.

The anime writers gave us more Hagino and Tomoko story, so I'm good with that.
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Old 2006-09-25, 16:34   Link #1048
DragoonKain3
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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Some of you guys might think I'm close-minded, but I'm afraid nothing anyone can say will change my thinking that there is no lead-up to a Hiroki/Elise ending. I don't think it's my bias towards Kiri (after all, I still saw Asa a mile away and I was supporting Kaede), so I'm pretty sure I wasn't blinded by my love for a particular character. A popular writer once said that the reader likes to be tricked, not conned, and I strongly feel the latter for this show.



OT, but Digikyo, my sig is just list of the anime that is the best IMO that debuted in THAT season. For example, Air debuted in Winter 2005 and I thought it beat every other anime that started in that season, H&C debuted and was the best in Spring 2005, Suzuka in Summer 2005, and so on. It is by no means a list of anime that are competing for top spot since winter 2005; sorry if it was written misleadingly. ^^;
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Old 2006-09-26, 10:07   Link #1049
rei
Nya~ I'm a good actress
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by dojikyo
Btw, although real time only a second between the ending and the epilogue, it is hard to guess how much time actually passed. All of the prior images imply that some (the exact amount is unknown) has passed.
Hint: During the EP, there's a scene where Saginomiya Saya was staring at a painting of her sister (Saginomiya Ai) in her office. And she had became the superintendent of the academy. I think that Hiroki did the painting (back in episode 1, Saya did asked Hiroki to do a painting for her). So time did passed by.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
I think you're missing the complexity here, rei. Hiroki obviously considers Elise his most important person at the end but we never really get the sense that he's physically attracted to her.
Simply to say that Hiroki didn't have the desire to & not even thinking of kissing Elis.

Last edited by rei; 2006-09-26 at 10:45.
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Old 2006-09-26, 11:22   Link #1050
Vexx
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Age: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by rei
Hint:

Simply to say that Hiroki didn't have the desire to & not even thinking of kissing Elis.
Example? Really, I'm just asking for some references and so far no one has provided any examples of Hiroki exhibiting any physical attraction for Elise (as opposed to Kiri). I'm not opposed to either a Kiri or Elise ending, I'm simply observing I saw no onscreen implications Hiroki ever entertained physical desire for Elise. Elise, on the other hand, exhibited many such clues she enjoyed Hiroki's physical proximity.
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Old 2006-09-26, 13:53   Link #1051
DanielSong39
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After episode 21, it looked like Elis was dead in the water... still, episode 22 kept the door open, albeit a crack. The hospital bed scene provided some hints of Hiroki's feelings; the bigger concern was Kiri's insecurity and guilt.

But Episode 23 did little to help Elis' cause, which set up the shocker that was Episode 24. If we saw Kiri unravel just a bit more in that episode, it would have been a better setup for the finish. But then again, it would've lessened the impact of the final episode.

As for 24... not the greatest episode in the world; I felt the drama was overdone. I think the producers would've been better served by showing Hiroki and Elis sightseeing in Paris while holding hands, instead of the scene we did get. Gets the message across without being quite as offensive - if you ask me.
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Old 2006-09-26, 16:38   Link #1052
Vexx
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I like Daniel's suggestion for an ending eyecatch.... doesn't feel so much like shifting from 2nd gear directly to 8th gear (grind, shatter, crunch).
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Old 2006-09-26, 21:02   Link #1053
dojikyo
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by dojikyo
Spoiler:


That being said ... I will probably prefer a different ending.
Spoiler:
For reference the blush is at 11:48 of episode 22. Probably best thing I have heard would be having an episode about the time between the end of episode of 24 and the epilogue or at the very least a single screen could be added that said someone along the lines of one month later.
edit: The original post is from the end of March.
2nd edit: Soul Link did actually have a decent premise. It was just ruined by the worst dialogue and worst direction I have seen since Ikki Tousen.

Last edited by dojikyo; 2006-09-26 at 21:20.
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Old 2006-09-26, 21:34   Link #1054
relentlessflame
 
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Well, once again, I feel like saying something to the on-going debate, but I'll refrain in favour of bringing you this important message from the Canvas 2 producers: no matter which ending you prefer, Hiroki's still one lucky guy.

Spoiler for "Proof" of the above:
If that's not the (kinda freaky) look of a very lucky guy, I don't know what is.

(As a side note, as has been the case since DVD 1, the first artcard included with each DVD is an illustration to match the contents of the included drama CD. I think you can figure out what happens... )

More art from DVD 9...
Spoiler for More DVD 9 Artcards:

And calendar cards (featuring the art from the DVD covers) to go with the calendar card holder from last month:
Spoiler for DVD 9 Calendar Cards:

And now back to your regularly-scheduled discussion.
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Old 2006-09-26, 21:53   Link #1055
Vexx
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Age: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by dojikyo
For reference the blush is at 11:48 of episode 22. Probably best thing I have heard would be having an episode about the time between the end of episode of 24 and the epilogue or at the very least a single screen could be added that said someone along the lines of one month later.
edit: The original post is from the end of March.
2nd edit: Soul Link did actually have a decent premise. It was just ruined by the worst dialogue and worst direction I have seen since Ikki Tousen.
Thanks... I'll run through that ep (and probably the next one). I'm starting to sound like a broken record and would prefer not to.... I'd just be more satisfied with about 20 seconds of key frames added to the story.
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Old 2006-09-26, 22:03   Link #1056
evil-samurai
......
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
Well, once again, I feel like saying something to the on-going debate, but I'll refrain in favour of bringing you this important message from the Canvas 2 producers: no matter which ending you prefer, Hiroki's still one lucky guy.

Spoiler for "Proof" of the above:
If that's not the (kinda freaky) look of a very lucky guy, I don't know what is.
Thats! Elise O.o! well anyway I like it and no doubt that he is one lucky guy =)

Thanks! again for the scans.
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Old 2006-09-26, 22:15   Link #1057
Riker
Peek a boo
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by evil-samurai
Thats! Elise O.o! well anyway I like it and no doubt that he is one lucky guy =)
I think she's the Canvas1 character that made a cameo in one of the earlier episodes.
She wanted to be a model for Hiroki but Hiroki says he doesn't draw models with no... erm... frontal assets.
That picture is a teachers' gathering or something.

Needs Saya in it. :x
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Old 2006-09-26, 23:11   Link #1058
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riker
I think she's the Canvas1 character that made a cameo in one of the earlier episodes. [...] That picture is a teachers' gathering or something.
Yup, you've got it. The blond girl is Ren Sakurazuka from Canvas 1, and the other girl (other than Kiri) is Yuu Shinomiya (also from Canvas 1). Hiroki has all the luck, even with cameo characters...
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Old 2006-09-27, 01:07   Link #1059
evil-samurai
......
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riker
I think she's the Canvas1 character that made a cameo in one of the earlier episodes.
She wanted to be a model for Hiroki but Hiroki says he doesn't draw models with no... erm... frontal assets.
That picture is a teachers' gathering or something.

Needs Saya in it. :x
oh... >.> I just thought it was Elise drawn differently... thanks for the correction.
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Old 2006-09-27, 04:04   Link #1060
rei
Nya~ I'm a good actress
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
Example? Really, I'm just asking for some references and so far no one has provided any examples of Hiroki exhibiting any physical attraction for Elise (as opposed to Kiri). I'm not opposed to either a Kiri or Elise ending, I'm simply observing I saw no onscreen implications Hiroki ever entertained physical desire for Elise. Elise, on the other hand, exhibited many such clues she enjoyed Hiroki's physical proximity.
Sorry, I guess I didn't make my post very clear there. Actually, I still didn't understand about this 'physical attraction' that you are talking about. (I have poor comprehension skill, you know ) So when you said 'physical attraction', I assumed you were talking about kissing stuff.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
Thanks... I'll run through that ep (and probably the next one). I'm starting to sound like a broken record and would prefer not to.... I'd just be more satisfied with about 20 seconds of key frames added to the story.
Eh? I thought you knew about that episode already? That's why I didn't mention about the Hiroki's blushing in ep 22.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rei
Quote:
Originally Posted by rei
Kiri's omikuji - You must wait for your wish to come true
Elis' omikuji - Your wish will be granted
Quote:
Originally Posted by Searcher
Could it just be like this:

Kiri's wish: that hiroki would paint again, since they were a pair, her next wish for hiroki would be to paint again.
And he did, just after a while.

Elis wish: That hiroki would love her.

Just mine opinion
I don't think so After reading that omikuji, Kiri said, "I've...waited long enough..." It can't be that she'd waited long enough for Hiroki to paint now, can it? Because Kiri didn't know that Hiroki had stopped painting until she met him again. I think she was waiting for Hiroki to respond to her feeling. Then again...
I've changed my mind. I think Kiri's wish is to express her feeling towards Hiroki one more time. But she couldn't do it until Yanagi gave her a push at the back.

Edit: Today is Elis' birthday (27/9). HAPPY BIRTHDAY, ELIS-CHAN !

Last edited by rei; 2006-09-30 at 08:16.
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