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Old 2006-09-27, 05:03   Link #1061
npal
I desire Tomorrow!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rei

Edit: Today is Elis' birthday (27/9). HAPPY BIRTHDAY, ELIS-CHAN !
Nice Too bad she lost her match the other day. Oh well, time to throw a party
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Old 2006-09-27, 10:36   Link #1062
rei
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Join Date: May 2006
Well, I pretty much content that she beat Hikari (Strawberry Panic character) in that match.


Time to bring in the cake.







De~li~cious! ~♪

Housen Elis' birthday - 27th September
Kikyou Kiri's birthday - 29th July
Hagino Kana's birthday - 26th April
Misaki Sumire's birthday - 3rd November
Saginomiya Saya's birthday - 17th August
Takeuchi Mami's birthday - 24th December
Fujinami Tomoko's birthday - 10th September

Darn! I've missed Tomoko's birthday.

I wonder why Tamaru Hikari is not included in the game

EDIT: Wasn't there a drama CD for Canvas 2? Does anyone have any detail of what it's all about & does it somehow connected to the anime?

Last edited by rei; 2006-09-30 at 22:52.
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Old 2006-09-28, 19:20   Link #1063
Skyfall
Lost in my dreams...
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 28
Ok, for some reason i have been avoiding this series but i decided to watch it yesterday and finished today, so i thought i post my thoughts on this one. And no, i did not read the whole 54 pages before posting

I have to say the ending was somewhat surprising, so i thought of what can i pull out of my behind to justify the things that happened there, so i'll give it a go :P
(note - this is written at 3am and i should be long asleep, so this post is done in a semi-asleep state of mind ,so dont blame me too much if i write too much bs here and please excuse any grammar mistakes )



Overall a very good series, although it seemed to have a few rather 'pointless' episodes at the middle. It definitely has one of the most likable male leads around - hes definitely not an ass as most of the harem leads (although one cannot call this a harem because this is a triangle). Only thing one can accuse him of is that he seems not to be attracted to girls at all for the most part :P So thats a + from me to the series - an enjoyable male lead.

Another thing i noticed - usually in a series where there is love triangle/anything involved, i find myself usually hating one of the female characters with a passion(passion might be a strong word, considering that i am considered pretty emotionless by most people, but ok). I completely hated Asa in Shuffle / Mitsuki in KGnE. Here i found myself actually liking both the females, which is another + from me - the series doesn't make me scowl when a certain character appears on screen.
(Although i admit i would take Elis over Kiri any day)

So...down to the ending - i must say that thing came somewhat unexpected watching for the first time, but certainly not unjustified. Now that i know the ending there are a lot of dots to connect that lead to this point.

The whole thing hit me basically as Hiroki's inner struggle about his life(As if we actually got to see what he thinks - that guy sure knows how to keep a blank face). It was the whole Teacher vs Painter theme, and the two girls seemed to represent each life - and he would end up with the girl depending on what route he took, with Kiri awaiting at the end of the Teacher road, and Elis at the Painter road.

Now, in all honesty i can say that him going with Elis probably is the most natural choice of his - trough the series its obvious he doesn't like to be a teacher and his true calling is a painter. The scenes where he tells himself that maybe teacher is not a bad job obviously don't reflect his true feelings.

In short - this teacher life was the 'fake' one he tried to pursue because of past happenings, and Kiri happens to be a part of that past - this whole 'fake' life made him pursue the relationship with Kiri, and he obviously isn't happy. Kiri asks him, if all they can talk about is Food/Tv/work - and it really seems that its true - its not like he has anything else in his life. He is forcing himself in the teacher job, just as he seemed to be forcing himself towards this relationship, based of some past feelings that supposedly were there.

Now, he ends up with Elis and he begins to paint again. Now, its clear that Elis is important to him - she was the one that made him break out of this life he was forcing upon himself in the end.

What caused him to change his mind? Well, i think the realization that Elis is leaving finally hit him upon seeing her crimson angel painting - i think at this moment it sank in that Elis is no longer his 'little sister' - and i think at this point he also understood how deep Elis's feelings really were towards him - i think up until now he might have thought about them as nothing too serious.

Then, upon seeing that painting, he must have realized that Elis has confronted her greatest fear just because of him, (something he probably wants to do himself) and he realizes that she is leaving for good - i think this realization never really hit him before, and i think at this point he, for the first time, must confront his feelings - Kiri (pinned together with not so pleasant memories of the past + the life he tries to force upon himself) or Elis, who has, apparently, moved past being his 'little sister' + emotions concerning her makes him feel like painting again.

And after Elis says:"can i say this one last time? Oniichan, i love you" and hangs up, Hiroki drops down on his knees and throws his phone against the floor. (This is the most emotions we get from him during the series, mind you :P) Then come the flashbacks where the the superintendent lady (forgot her name :P) says it will be lonely without Elis... flashback where Hagino says that in her novel the protagonist isn't sincere about his feelings and he ends up regretting up for his entire life (the setup of the novel was about a guy and his sister-like figure and a childhood friend - rings a bell ? )

And a flashback of Sumire - Asks him if he is truly ok with the way things are going.

Now, as for the hints leading up to this... i must agree that given how things were developed and how it was going i truly thought he would go with Kiri in the end and become a teacher, and story-wise this would probably make more sense. What the Elis ending Lacks is about one more episode to set more base for the new relationship between them.

(tho my fanboy side is definitely 100% pleased with the ending and tells my brain to STFU i still agree that the hints were too subtle and little, but also one must consider this - the writers probably wanted to pull a surprise ending, and this would be completely ruined should we have an ep showing that Hiroki actually struggles with his feelings towards Elis and that he would be attracted to her in a sexual manner - so i will sort of assume that the complete absence of Hiroki's thoughts and emotions were needed in order to achieve the surprise ending)

I think the first time he showed that he might have more than sisterly interest in Elis was in ep 22 when he blushed when she took his hand - i mean he never blushed before regardles of the fact that she crept in to his bed several times and hugged him, so i think it shows that he maybe (starts to)thinks of her more than just a sister.

The things that showed that things might work this way were mostly Kiri's emotions and expressions/reactions (tho they should have done a much better job on her expressions). I think the scene where he tells Kiri that he is painting again is when she realizes that she has lost him - she can be a part of his life as a teacher, not as a painter. Also the fact that he dumped her on X-mas eve(although this is understandable during the circumstances, it still shows his change of heart, given that just recently he told her not to worry)

(BTW was i the only one that feared the worst for Elis at one moment ? seeing her sleep with his jacket and the painting of crimson angels later really had me creaped out a bit :P And having recently rewatched KGnE certainly didn't help :P) And he also seemed kinda worried when he called Elis.

And also a few things earlier pointing that he might be uncertain about Kiri - Hagino telling about the story she's writing - about a sister-like figure and a childhood friend and a guy where the hero is not being honest about his own feelings (this was a dead-on obvious hint at least in my eyes that something is not right even without knowing the ending - and Hagino probably knows Hiroki quite well).

Then there is the scene where he stares down at Elis from a window and doesnt notice Kiri when she tries to get his attentions - obviously hes in deep thoughts about Elis.

And at one point Sumire meets Hiroki in the hallways after having heard from Elis that she is doing fine - she asks him if everything is fine and Hiroki answers that both he and Elis is fine - then she calls him a liar and says that both of them are lying and runs away.

At airport when Elis is about to leave, Hagino asks: Do you remember my novel? "At first, i couldn't realize my own feelings. But i could only think about you after a while. Iv always, always loved you." < happens right before Hiroki shows up and they hug.

So - as far as i can see things were unexpected, but certainly not pulled out of the behind as some people tend to think. Especially the words they both say while sitting in the bed - "We got them back - That color / that dream" << Which imo was one of the main points of the series - how these two characters get over their past and move forward, and it just so happens that thy are the persons the other one needs to do so.


About them being relatives - doesn't concern me one bit. Marriage between cousins is perfectly fine. Age difference is not that big - was it 4,5 years ? Hardly anything. About Elis being only 16 - who cares, its legal and perfectly normal, and she certainly seems mature enough to know what she wants, she developed the most during the series.

Morals and other bs are completely irrelevant - morals are set on ones personal opinions and feeling influenced by the environment one grew up in, and one people morales do not affect another ones in any way (at least shouldn't) Don't like it - your problem, its perfectly fine for them and your opinion is not > theirs in any way possibly imaginable. Basically as far as religion/morales/anything of that sort is concerned - they all can crash and burn and hell would freeze over sooner than i would start caring - its just your own personal believes and others are not supposed to agree with them in any way.

Its also clear he is not her official guardian - i think that was just a catchy phrase used by the authors to strengthen the impression of the brother/sister relationship. The fact that he doesnt even have to sign and doesn't know about the papers of Elis going to France means he is not her guardian.
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Old 2006-09-28, 21:12   Link #1064
cheesie
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(God, it seems that type of girl i prefer never wins... only other thing when my girl won was Meyrin from GSD :P)
I don't think so.
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Old 2006-09-29, 00:44   Link #1065
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I don't think so.
Oh I think so.
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Old 2006-09-29, 00:46   Link #1066
relentlessflame
 
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Originally Posted by Skyfall
(note - this is written at 3am and i should be long asleep and so this post is done in a semi-asleep state of mind so don't blame me too much if i write too much bs here, and please excuse any grammar mistakes )
You know, this is the second "essay" format post I've read on the forum today with some degree on trepidation, and in fact, I have to say here too that I actually agree with your analysis. Not bad for 3am writing.

Eventually I'll add thoughts of my own, but suffice it to say that I think you've covered the key symbolic points. The only point where I disagree with much of the analysis on this forum in general (and you touch on it in your own post as well) is the need for a "missing link" (beyond the symbolic significance you've already outlined) to make the closing scene less incongruous. The prevailing opinion seems to be: how can we simply accept that Hiroki has been hiding romantic feelings for Elis all this time when they provided so few hints to indicate so? Many people have blamed this on poor writing, bad series planning, a needless desire for a "twist", and so on. I can't say that I agree, but unfortunately I can't really explain why not yet either.

In any event, good job at connecting the dots.
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Old 2006-09-29, 01:53   Link #1067
Skyfall
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Well, while it can be argued wether the twist was needed or not, its obvious that the writers want to pull it of :P I think they wanted to achieve that "zomg" moment in the end (which i must say they achieved quite successfully - i certainly didn't expect Elis and Hiroki sitting in bed naked cuddling against each other).

I mean, would it come of as a surprise if they would give us insights of Hiroki's thoughts and clearly show us that hes struggling between Elis and Kiri? I'm simply wanting to believe that writers actually knew what they were doing and simply for one reason or another wanted that twist in the end without hinting on it too heavily and we got what we got - some subtle messages (Like not showing how the second confession of Kiri went - its obvious he didn't reject her, but he didn't down right accept it either - imo he somehow took the middle road out of there)

Hints like Hagino 'The Writer' writing a story which remarkably is exactly the same as the situation we have here, and she says she hasn't decided the ending yet, but does say that the male is not honest about his feelings etc. You might as well go as far and say she was actually writing the story of Elis/Kiri/Hiroki and thus her words would carry quite some weight

Like i said - i want to believe that the writers knew what they were doing and simply wanted that surprise to be there and thus they couldn't hint it more, aside from the few facts already mentioned and the fact that Hiroki and Kiri doesn't seem to be moving anywhere with their relationship. I simply donut think the writers suddenly pulled a slot machine - the hints are there and taking in to consideration that they wanted a surprise end this is probably as far as they can go.

Hiroki and Kiri didn't really seem to tick, did they?
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Old 2006-09-29, 11:11   Link #1068
Searcher
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Excelent explanation Skyfall.

Only i thought that the main story wasn't about Hiroki's inner struggle.
I thought that it was about Elis, i will try to explain.

Hikori and Kiri only grew up in the ending (somewhat)
The only one who ever grew up significantly was Elis. We get to see her grow up in a mature person.
How her love for Hikori chanced from a childish obsessive love, to a grown mature love.
A "love" that even that she loved Hiroki, she could let him go to the person he loved (atleast that's what elis thought)

I also agree with you on the hints that you have given. I only thought that they weren't subtle.
Especially when Hiroki x Kiri relationship when nowhere and we didn't get to see Kiri's second confession.

Now to explain why i didn't mind seeing Hikori's and Kiri's thought in the anime.
As so many people found it a bit sudden that Hikori chose Elis.

Like I said earlier, the anime is about elis growing up and since it's only 24 eps, it's rather short for introducing Hikori's or Kiri's thought.
Seeing Hiroki struggle would be disctracting us from seeing elis growing up.

Not that i would love to hear Kiri's thought on why she was dumped in the first place.
Also why she didn't kiss Hikori when she had the chance

Now for Hikori's thought, they couldn't show him in a dispute with himself about how he feels about Elis. That would spoil to much of the show.

Also, how can the writers give a good explanation for Hikori falling in love with Elis.
Elis is 16 years old and she is his cousin (or is that niece ).
If the writers went in that direction then the arguements would put the discussions over the ending of KGNE to shame
Unfortunatly there are a lot of people who "think" that their moral is the only moral

So by not showing Hiroki's thought, they also could pull a suprise (for some people) ending.
The writers must have looked at other anime's to see how they covered the "moral" aspect up.
Take a look at Da Capo, not only is the brother in love with his sister, the sister is also in love with her brother.
Do they explain any of their thought on "how/why/where/is this right/what would our parents think" aspect.
No! To many danger of distractions of the storyline.
Just put a lot of cute girls to distract the fans that a brother and sister are in love.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
On a side note - WEEEE Elis won , man this has got to be the first time 'my girl' actually wins - i rooted for Tessa in FMP/ Haruka in KGnE/ Nerine in Shuffle etc
If you are a Kotori fan, then you could be my twin

Last edited by Searcher; 2006-09-29 at 11:29.
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Old 2006-09-29, 11:45   Link #1069
Skyfall
Lost in my dreams...
 
 
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Yes, i agree that whole series is more about Elis than Hiroki, with 'the whole thing' i mean Hiroki's love/job choice, not the whole series:P

Quote:
Also, how can the writers give a good explanation for Hikori falling in love with Elis.
Elis is 16 years old and she is his cousin
Well, imo falling in love is nothing that needs an explanation :P I know i as hell sure don't spend my time wondering what logical points i can come up with as to why i love the girl i love - i'm just happy that i do and that she loves me back. You cant help about whom you fall in love with, and the reason can be whatever possible.

And as said before - marriage between cousins is perfectly fine in 80% of the world, so nothing much here to debate about.

Her age is fine as well, nothing wrong with the fact shes 16 and Hiroki's 20-21 or so. The fact is she was the one that fell for him first (and he didnt lead her on in any way) and obviously she trusts him (and id say this is well founded trust - so again in my view no problems here)

Its not the fact that it was the Elis x Hiroki ending that surprised me(and i assume the most of the viewers) - its the fact that the final scene jumped in to bed :P (Tho i must say the scene was beautiful). I think there wouldn't be so many OMGWTF reactions if would have been shown Elis and Hiroki sitting at the table eating or something. I think writers just wanted to make the ending clear cut to avoid any questions like - does he truly ends up with Elis or is he simply accompanying her to Paris etc - the bedtime scene rules out these kind of questions. And as sudden as it was i think some time has passed - Kiri is back in school and teaching (meaning that Christmas holidays are over already, tho i don't know if/how long they are in Japan, here its two weeks) And Tomoko is shown opening her eyes while lying in a bed(god, i thought it was a coffin at first T.T) - which is probably after her operation, so i assume that at least few weeks have passed.
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Old 2006-09-29, 12:27   Link #1070
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Quote:
Originallly Posted by Skyfall
Well, imo falling in love is nothing that needs an explaination
That's what the writers probally thought of.
And since explaining it would upset "somebody", they smartly distances themselfs.
Let the fans fight with themselfs

Strong views on religious/moral people , but i feel the same way as a atheist
If I have to respect their right to being religious, why cann't they respect mine right to being an atheist.
Instead they keep pushing their "morals/gods" on me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall
And Tomoko is shown opening her eyes while lying in a bed(god, i thought it was a coffin at first T.T
You and me both , those bastards made mine heart stop twice in the end.
First on the plane and later in the credits.

For that the writers own me a after Ova, just so i can see Tomoko again.

Oh well, when i have found the canvas 2 walkthrough for the game, i can play Tomoko's route (Tomoko is in the game, right )
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Old 2006-09-29, 13:33   Link #1071
Vexx
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Well... don't you know? Its because they're right and you're wrong
The idea of there being different "best paths" for people makes those insecure in their beliefs nuts.

But the religious angle is irrelevant to the "cousins" aspect. Cousin marriage is simply legal in most of the world (even in most of the US states), its just that some folks idiotically believe the rules in their neighborhood apply everywhere. Same for the "16" issue... even in the US, marrying at 16 is allowed in many states and age of consent is 16 in many of them. In Japan, there are a lot of rules depending on the prefecture but socially very few people blink at age 14 and over (at least for dating ... marriage is usually deferred til after schooling is done).

(it gets *really* old having to repeat this in thread after thread because some people don't bother to do their own research about the world)

I checked the references given earlier... and yes, there's a HINT that Hiroki is physically attracted to Elise in ep22 but it is so mild I'm going to continue to think the writers were too restrained. A few extra "Hiroki angry-confused-embarrassed" bits might have been helpful to foreshadow his attraction to her (since they made it completely clear she was attracted to him). It really *is* the only mild critique I have of an overall entertaining series.
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Old 2006-09-29, 13:42   Link #1072
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Originally Posted by Searcher
Oh well, when i have found the canvas 2 walkthrough for the game, i can play Tomoko's route (Tomoko is in the game, right )
Only in the PS2 version, and the new DVD Edition of the PC Game coming out in early October.
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Old 2006-09-29, 14:12   Link #1073
Skyfall
Lost in my dreams...
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
I checked the references given earlier... and yes, there's a HINT that Hiroki is physically attracted to Elise in ep22 but it is so mild I'm going to continue to think the writers were too restrained. A few extra "Hiroki angry-confused-embarrassed" bits might have been helpful to foreshadow his attraction to her (since they made it completely clear she was attracted to him). It really *is* the only mild critique I have of an overall entertaining series.
Yes, i would have liked it as well, but as i said before - the writers obviously wanted a shock/unexpected ending - would it come as such if we would have been given actual insights of Hiroki's thoughts and shown that he is clearly struggling with his feelings towards Elis? Obviously not, so i think they kept it out for the sake of a twist in the end. Perhaps im just giving them too much credit, but i wouldn't like to think that - after all the series is quite exceptionally well done imo and is not lacking, so i doubt that these writers could leave out something as important without intention and without realizing this
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Old 2006-09-29, 16:29   Link #1074
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Ah, you beat me to it, Skyfall

That's about the same as i had in mine mind.
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Old 2006-09-29, 16:55   Link #1075
Skyfall
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Seems like we agree on a lot of things
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Old 2006-10-01, 19:38   Link #1076
cheesie
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Originally Posted by justinstrife
Oh I think so.
Not from what new interviews/scans/pictures have shown. Sorry.

On-Topic:

Am I the only one who dislikes manga!Elis? In the anime, I rather liked her for her mild adult and elegant streak, the ability to remain mature and, um, not spaz out/get hyper like all the imoutos out there. (Wow, literature worthy!) So seeing her all ^______________________________^ is a bit baffling for me, to say the least.
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Old 2006-10-01, 19:46   Link #1077
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crisis
Not from what new interviews/scans/pictures have shown. Sorry.

On-Topic:

Am I the only one who dislikes manga!Elis? In the anime, I rather liked her for her mild adult and elegant streak, the ability to remain mature and, um, not spaz out/get hyper like all the imoutos out there. (Wow, literature worthy!) So seeing her all ^______________________________^ is a bit baffling for me, to say the least.
Too bad the anime shows differently. Which is what 95% of the fans are basing it on. Next?
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Old 2006-10-01, 22:54   Link #1078
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Wow that ending was whack. He should've just nailed Kiri but okay, the Japanese love a good inceststory now and then. Yuk.
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Old 2006-10-02, 00:14   Link #1079
cheesie
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Originally Posted by justinstrife
Too bad the anime shows differently. Which is what 95% of the fans are basing it on. Next?
Fukada & Wife's interviews. :She backtracks. Athrun is now the 'father', Cagalli the 'mother, and Orb 'the baby'. I'm not making it up.

Haha, much as I'd like to get into an argument about Cagalli and Meyrin, I think we have enough of that in the past few months already. It's fine if people likes Athrun/Meyrin, but I think the debate is settled (or will be) in the final edition (and the symbolic joining of Athrun's ring and Cagalli's pendant in the second. )

On topic: Elis is such a sweetheart! *fangirls*
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Old 2006-10-02, 01:55   Link #1080
Skyfall
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Originally Posted by naantje
Wow that ending was whack. He should've just nailed Kiri but okay, the Japanese love a good inceststory now and then. Yuk.
Got to love people who don't read previous posts. There is nothing yuk about it, your local traditions are not interesting to anyone in particular and people with thoughts like these are a vast minority and it is perfectly fine in almost all the world. Why does it feel that this has been said 87656 times already ?
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