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Old 2008-06-15, 09:42   Link #4601
Warchef
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Learn to read please, I said 'how aren't Ichigo and Rukia's experiences with hollows killing their loved ones a shared, manifested feeling of sadness, guilt, and tragedy?'
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Old 2008-06-15, 10:32   Link #4602
Langus
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HT: I can't believe you seriously pulled out a Wikipedia reference *tsk tsk*

Anyone can go in and edit that shit. I've edited Wikipedia pages before - they aren't any more credible of a source just because they're online but I'm sure you already knew that right

I kinda want to get in on this debate but I've completely lost track of what the original point was supposed to be...
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Old 2008-06-15, 10:39   Link #4603
Mr. DJ
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so...has anyone TRIED to find this radio interview? these aren't exactly uncommon occurances when celebrities of some sort do stuff on the radio.

A lot of this is coming off as "I didn't hear about no radio show, so this is bullshit"

So much seriousness in this thread, it's almost scary
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Old 2008-06-15, 11:33   Link #4604
Warchef
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Yes, I have. I have searched Bleach Asylum's database for any trace of this alleged interview but can find no info about it. Asam was claiming that it was confirmed by someone at BA, but if something like that happens, there is at least a smidgen of evidence and always a thread/topic about it. I found NOTHING that indicates that anyone confirmed this interview.



Edit: We are currently discussing an alleged interview between Kubo and Inoue's seiyuu. Asam is claiming that he went on 2chan and observed people talking about it. He hasn't posted anything to prove it, so /shrug.

We are also nagging back and forth about who is the heroine of Bleach. Feel free to expound on the argument as you please Langus.


Quote:
so...has anyone TRIED to find this radio interview? these aren't exactly uncommon occurances when celebrities of some sort do stuff on the radio.

A lot of this is coming off as "I didn't hear about no radio show, so this is bullshit"

So much seriousness in this thread, it's almost scary
It's more to do with the fact that Asam hasn't posted any credible evidence to support his claim, most notably the alleged 'thread' in 2chan that is discussing the interview. That's all I'm asking for, the thread so it can be translated and properly discussed.

Last edited by Warchef; 2008-06-15 at 11:44.
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Old 2008-06-15, 12:00   Link #4605
asam_laksa
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How many times do I have to say that it was on through the radio interview, that it came as a spontaneous, shocking news to everyone in Japan, that they went talking about it? And if you were to be aware of the situations and not be stubborn over it, most of the interviews posted in BA were exercpts from magazines.

Please go on denying yourself by closing your eyes and ears to what that had happened in the past and then demand us to serve to you everything in a platter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warchef View Post
As for your continuing insistence on talking about tragedy and sadness, how aren't Ichigo and Rukia's experiences with hollows killing their loved ones a shared, manifested feeling of sadness, guilt, and tragedy?
I feel like banging my head on the wall. E.X.P.E.C.T.A.T.I.O.N.

Only then you could tell whether Orihime is the main heroine now, or Rukia is.

I guess from now on, I will just have to cut and paste, reminding people of the questions they had not yet answered.

Quote:
Inoue IS a heroine. I don't believe that she's the MAIN heroine of the story. That's a big difference.




I am referring to the title of the story's main heroine. I am NOT contending that Inoue is not a heroine, just that she isn't the MAIN heroine, and I have never EVER stated that being the MAIN heroine granted Rukia canon-status romantic partnership with Ichigo. Do I believe it will happen? Yes, I do. That's the shipper in me, I see things in the manga that lead me to believe that the relationship is slated to happen. Does that mean I think without a doubt that IchiRuki is Kubo's OTP? No, even I have doubts, but given how the manga has gone in my opinion, I think the story will end with it's two main characters in a romantic relationship, if not open, certainly implied.
Here's a question, I like to ask you........since you believe that Orihime IS NOT THE MAIN HEROINE OF THE STORY, RUKIA IS......the question is 'What is Bleach story, one that involves Rukia?'

I asked before, what kind of sadness and tragedy expected from the IchiKiai fans in regards to IchiKiai pairing, and the type of sadness and tragedy expected from the IchiHime fans in regards to IchiHime pairing.

No IchiKiai fans were able to answer my question. One answered, when Rukia is skewered and never recovers from it, dies, hopefully in front of Ichigo.....it's a sad and tragic love story for IchiKiai.

However for Orihime, her powers proved to be too much to imagine. She can restore people in seconds, she resurrects people from death, she can manipulate time and space (and we know time and space manipulation is a forbidden technique) she can create anything she desires. Aizen desires her. In short, what we have.....a person who gets targetted by the enemies; power and body. Is she free to live in Karakura by herself? Soul Society, all by herself? No, she needs to live under the surveillance of people guarding her....she is not free. Either that, or she dies, by that way her power disappears, she diappears, no more chances for the enemies to use her.

The way I see it, as of now.......the Bleach inclination for a tragic/sad love story is really towards Orihimexmale pairing, with her powers.

If you were Kubo Tite, how are you going to swing the tide to IchiKiai's side, if supposedly your OTP is IchiKiai pairing? Ichigo brandishing his sword wildly, protecting Rukia all the time? You must have a reason for the enemies targeting Rukia first.




Why no answer for the underlined ones? Is it because
After Soul Society arc, there is not much Rukia's screen panel, not much is talked about Rukia, more is focused on Ichigo's powers and Orihime's powers. Hence you don't know what is to make out of Rukia as the 'heroine' of the show in the future.

Face it, Rukia's developement after Soul Society had been a little bit stale in compared to Orihime's and Ichigo's. That's why eventhough you insist that Rukia is still the main heroine of the show, you have no idea of what Kubo Tite has plans for Rukia, except a hope that him and her will make out inside the bedroom closet.
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Old 2008-06-15, 12:10   Link #4606
asam_laksa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warchef View Post
It's more to do with the fact that Asam hasn't posted any credible evidence to support his claim, most notably the alleged 'thread' in 2chan that is discussing the interview. That's all I'm asking for, the thread so it can be translated and properly discussed.
Have you visited 2chan website before? Do you know how 2chan works?

Do you know how people are able to tell which one is trying to pull a fast one, and which one is trying to tell you the truth?

How are you then able to translate and properly discussed of what that it's there, when you are not even equiped with a basic understanding of Japanese and how 2chan works.

Do you know that most of the spoilers you get in the early week, is basically from 2chan, and it's the same people who helped to obtain and translate the Bleach spoilers, who went in and talked to the others?
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Old 2008-06-15, 12:27   Link #4607
el cielo
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Ah, hello everyone, as you can see I'm new here but I have been reading this thread for these few days. Sorry to butt in like this, but I just have to post.

asam_laksa, do you know what's the title of that radio's programme? The only Bleach-related radio programme I know is Bleach B Station, mc-ed by Masakazu Morita (Ichigo's seiyuu). That interview is not possible to be a Bleach B Station because if it is, Morita would be there. It would be an interview between Morita and Kubo, not Kubo and Inoue's seiyuu (so far, in that programme, there's no such thing as three person at the same time).

I'm just curious, out of all seiyuus, why Inoue's seiyuu was chosen to interview Kubo. So far it was and always been Morita. I also never heard of such thing as 'a mangaka appeared and being interviewed in radio' For a change as big as this, and an interview as important as this, how could there be no records? Even Bleach B Station have D:

I would like to hear that interview. I always like to hear any Bleach related shows/interviews xD

But do you really think Kubo, as a mangaka, would say something like, "this character will become the next main lead" Come on, even harem game/anime (which have tons heroines) have their fixed-unchangeable-main heroine. "Being important/become the next focus" doesn't mean "main lead status gained" Changing the main hero/heroine of the show will confuse and disappoint most people. (and what do we have in the last poll? People want moar Rukia!!)

And I don't think Japanese would care about the main hero/heroine thing, it's already too obvious to them, even people who never read Bleach would understand that the main characters are Ichigo and Rukia. Makes me remember that in Soul Sonic 2005 there's this one fan-letter that said, "My mother couldn't remember other character's name except Ichigo and Rukia."

Wew, sorry for being a bit off topic, let's go back to it.

Btw... IchiKiai? Ichigo x Rukia = Ai (love)? I know you are a closet IchiRuki fan! Fufufu.
I have something to confess too, IchiHime sounds gay to me because it could be translated as Princess Ichi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
I don't know if anyone has ever read the pilot chapter for Bleach but... Ichigo is in love with Orihime in it, and Rukia teases Ichigo about it., even trying to tell Inoue about it. Also, there was something really interesting... Ichigo was about to confess to Orihime, but she stops him and say, that when she's going to be reborn again, and when that happens, they'll meet again, and then they can talk about it. In case you guys are confused, Inoue died in this chapter, but at the end she stuck around as a spirit with Rukia.
If I was IchiOri fan, I would choke Kubo to death. Because you know what? He erased the whole flashback of *embarassed*-*scratchs head*-should-I-tell-her-or-not-"Don't be sad, Inoue" and make Ichigo a total dummy who didn't recognize her until just recently at the beginning of current Bleach (which means he never comfort her like in pilot). It's a real downplay to IchiOri side, don't you think?

Quote:
Originally Posted by asam_laksa View Post
Like I said, people want to see what they like believe, more like like to believe what they want to believe. Rukia eats meat from Ichigo's hand a subtle indication of IchiKiai love. But getting from a few Japanese who overheard the conversation between Kubo Tite and Orihime's seiyuu is a smoke screen indeed.
Of course people want to see what they like/believe, why would they want to see something they don't like/believe. I watch Bleach because I like it. I don't watch Naruto because I don't like it. As simple as that. It's just a matter of 'accepting' if somehow you didn't get to see what you want.

Sometimes I thought about making "I survived HM Arc!" shirt.

I understand Warchef's opinion, sometimes even the most trustful person could get wrong information. Who knows? If what everyone's saying is true, we don't need police, lawyer and judge.

Is it wrong to have joy from color spreads? It's drawn by Kubo, it's something that every Bleach readers would see, it's canon. I don't think you should compare it with one interview that only known by one or two person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asam_laksa View Post
I asked before, what kind of sadness and tragedy expected from the IchiKiai fans in regards to IchiKiai pairing, and the type of sadness and tragedy expected from the IchiHime fans in regards to IchiHime pairing.
Eh? It's already happened.
Sadness/tragedy --> Remember when Rukia was brought back to Soul Society? Don't you see how sad, broken and hopeless Ichigo was?
Bittersweet --> Their separation in Soul Society.

They already went through a lot of things, as much as I love sad endings, I hope they would have their own happy ending.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asam_laksa View Post
If you were Kubo Tite, how are you going to swing the tide to IchiKiai's side, if supposedly your OTP is IchiKiai pairing? Ichigo brandishing his sword wildly, protecting Rukia all the time? You must have a reason for the enemies targeting Rukia first.
I prefer to see them fighting side by side/back to back, which was 100% approved by Kubo in second movie, and also 100% approved by current filler animators.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asam_laksa View Post
edit:: yep....I'm being very nitpicker in matters like this.
Spoiler for .:

A Rukia figurine, claimed by her fans to be taken from the chapter 196's chapter, the 'cheer'.

Is her heart right in the middle or towards to her left's side?

Pointing towards her heart indeed.
Sorry to bring up old topic, but I'm also nitpicky about this (what's with the small-blurry photo of Rukia and perfectly token photo of Inoue? =_+)

Spoiler for figurine close up:


And yes, she's pointing to her heart indeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asam_laksa View Post
...unlike your Rukia's 'man-in-my-heart' speech which is sold together with other Bleach characters in a boxset.
...yet the most rare figurine from all of six. I found none in all anime/toy/figurine shops I have entered, it's always sold-out while others (Ichigo, Rangiku, etc) stacks like crazy. I have to order for mine. Not just this figurine, all Rukia-related merchandise never last long, it's freaking hard to just get one.

And for the sake of answering the question of this thread... Ichigo and Rukia for sure.
Spoiler for it's long...:


Spoiler for From other sources than manga::


Uuh, sorry, I didn't plan to post so long, but I think it's just prove that there's so much things and hints about Ichigo and Rukia, so IchiRuki it is.

Last edited by el cielo; 2008-06-15 at 12:54. Reason: some things
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Old 2008-06-15, 14:18   Link #4608
Langus
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Uh hmmm...I see....

Maybe I'm just looking at the obvious here but when has Rukia ever NOT been the heroine of Bleach?

Even in Orihime's rescue arc Kubo took an extensive amount of time out for her Kaien flashback/espada fight bit. Focusing one arc out of an entire series on the rescue of Orihime does not automatically catapult her into the position of the series's central heroine.

Switching heroines halfway through a series just doesn't happen. Having three central heroes is also a plot device designed for failure (three's a crowd anyone?). Orihime's position will be resolved with the next arc and she'll go back to being a supporting character like Ishida, Chad, Urahara, Renji, etc. out of necessity.

The series will ultimately wind up the way it started - with a focus on Ichigo and Rukia. They may not end up together (I kind of hope they don't) but the story will come full circle to end with a focus on them (probably with a scene of them parting ways with her heading back to Soul Society and him going back to his life on the same street where she first turned him into a shinigami).

I can't explain it any more clearly than that really. Those of you who've been around the block manga/anime wise will probably realize that I'm right. The shippers will of course deny, deny, deny, pull out their extensive knowledge of all things manga and anime to "prove" that I'm way off the mark until we're all exhausted of being beat over the head with it, but unless something drastic changes in the manga I just don't see how things are going to go the way you want them to.
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Old 2008-06-15, 14:39   Link #4609
HiroInazuma
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What you said about 3 main characters being a fail...urm may I point you to (Even in this list it depends on what you call main characters):

Death Note: L, Ryuk, Light and Misa
Tsubasa Chronicles: Kurogane, Faye, Sakura, Syoaran
Naruto: Sakura, Kakashi, Naruto, Sasuke
He is my Master: Izumi, Perverted guy, Izumi's lesbian stalker, Izumi's little sister, Pochi/Pucchi I forgot
Soul Eater: Black*Star, Tsubaki, Maka, Shinigami, Death Scythe, Stein, Soul, Kidd, Thomspon Sisters
Shaman King: Yoh, Morty, Anna and Ren
Tenchi: Tenchi, Ryoko, Ayaka
Air Gear: Agito/Akito, Ikki, Ringo, Kazu, Onigiri, Buucha
Tenjou Tenge: Aya, Maya, Souchirou, Bob
Shuffle: The guy, Kaede, Aya, Devil girl, Angel girl
.Hack//: Too much to list

There is nothing wrong with having 2 heroines IMO it makes the story much more fun especially if they both are friends but are still the main love intrests and even though they make it subtle they are constantly contesting for the affection of the main character which isn't happening but I won't mind it
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Old 2008-06-15, 14:46   Link #4610
Zoe
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Yeah.... I wouldn't consider a lot of those to be main characters.
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Old 2008-06-15, 15:04   Link #4611
Warchef
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asam_laksa View Post
Have you visited 2chan website before? Do you know how 2chan works?

Do you know how people are able to tell which one is trying to pull a fast one, and which one is trying to tell you the truth?

How are you then able to translate and properly discussed of what that it's there, when you are not even equiped with a basic understanding of Japanese and how 2chan works.

Do you know that most of the spoilers you get in the early week, is basically from 2chan, and it's the same people who helped to obtain and translate the Bleach spoilers, who went in and talked to the others?
FFS, are you REALLY that dense? I said it before, I can't read or translate Japanese, I CEDED THAT FACT TO YOU. You can't seem to grasp your mind around that logic.

Bleach manga spoilers and a supposed radio interview between Inoue's seiyuu and Kubo, which is QUESTIONABLE BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE THE THREAD LINKED OR ANY TRANSCRIPTS OR THE LIKE are COMPLETELY different.

Seriously, is it that hard to figure out? You post something that PROVES this interview happened, NOT JUST HEARSAY FROM 2CHAN MEMBERS that possibly heard this so called 'interview'.
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Old 2008-06-15, 15:13   Link #4612
HaNa-san
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Thank you Warchef for standing to help with my argument, though I have to replay myself too ^^

Quote:
Originally Posted by kakashi-san View Post
Doesn't the bolded part tell you something? While I disagree that we havn't seen any development, there's still more to see from her. So her role is far from over. I know what your hoping, you're hoping that the Ulquiorra fight concludes Orihime's role for the rest of the story. Kubo said:

"Tied with Ichigo, her face is the hardest to draw. She's going to be a very important character later on so, I want to get used to drawing her faster."
*Sighs* I know that line it's from maybe four years ago, if I remember correctly, it came from the first interview with kubo…he said he'll give her an important role and that's what hm arc focuses on, even though we haven't witnessed her development yet.. well, we don't know that her role is far from over since she was just a bait for aizen…

Quote:
If he really means this then there is no way she's going to be a very important character if her only role is to cheer Ichigo in the Ulquiorra fight. I guess you could argue killing her would be huge, but that would hardly work in IchiRuki's favour. That would probably finish any hopes of pairings. Which is why it's funny that OD consistently supports Orihime's death.
Oh God -___-' who said it's better for her to die >< you seem to take this topic too personal… she's an important character, we all agree on that, but that doesn't mean she has taken rukia's place (the heroine of bleach)

Quote:
Let me put it this way. You and Warchef are hoping that Aizen is telling the absolute truth. I'm putting my bets on him being deceitful and a number of other factors. Not saying you guys are definatly wrong, but probability is Aizen will live up to his character to prove me right. No doubt if Rukia was in Orihime's position you would be using my argument fiercly and rightfully so.
Maybe you're right or maybe we're the right one, but we can't say anything and just use the current information we have which's what aizen said, till kubo proves it to be wrong .. well, aizen did treat rukia like a doll in ss arc and we didn't scream saying he didn't..

Quote:
Are you insane? Rukia is at the back. Rukia is the smallest drawn. Orihime is far cuter. Orihime attracts peoples eyes. I would normally insult someone who observed something like this, but I'll refrain since it's you.
Please calm down and don't jump into the conclusion without knowing what's a focal point means.. it's even something I studied in art classes -_- but anyway, just look at the picture and told me who's in the center..the size doesn't matter dude..



Quote:
No she doesn't, and I'm not prepared to show you. I think it's common sense that Orihime has been getting more attention the Rukia.
Then don't say it in the first place -_- yeah it's obvious she got more attention than rukia, because she is the one who's being rescued this time.. I don't know who got more development in this arc anyway..

Quote:
You keep ignoring the fact Rukia has zero potential to be useful. The only use she could possibly have right now is as a motivator. I'm actually judging the story on present events, you're the one hoping Kubo's love for Rukia over Orihime will determine things in the future. Possibly, but tell me who's living in fantasy land?
*takes a deep breath* rukia has zero potential to be useful?! So amusing.. I think I lost the words to express my disappointment on you.. It's better to leave it like that..but remember, when we'll have something in the future, I'll just quote this post to remind you and we'll see who will be right ^^

Quote:
Once again you're high on Rukia love. Firstly because something has never happened before doesn't mean it won't happen, that's just a general statement. Secondly what does it tell you when Chad and Ishida don't get that kind of attention? Thirdly only you and other Rukia fanatics think it's unfair. I think Rukia having another arc for herself after Orihime's would be unfair. Especially considering Orihime is far more intresting to observe right now.
It's normal for rukia to have more attention than anyone else (except ichigo) in the future too coz SHE'S THE HERIONE..or else what's the point of making her the heroine..also, we almost know nothing about her past and her sister truth, her connection with the hougyoko, her kanji name and its meaning..so it's better for kubo to expand these facts into more light..

edit: welcome back sinta ^^ nice to see you around here again =>

Last edited by HaNa-san; 2008-06-15 at 15:24.
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Old 2008-06-15, 15:39   Link #4613
Mr. DJ
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FYI - focal point does not mean the center of attention is actually in the center.
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Old 2008-06-15, 15:44   Link #4614
Warchef
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Hana is right in this circumstance because it's obvious where the majority of the comedy/action in the spread is. Rukia sneaking a bite of Ichigo's meat (LOLINNUENDO), and Renji being pissed that she's doing it.
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Old 2008-06-15, 15:54   Link #4615
HiroInazuma
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When people look at the pic most people I have seen look at Orihime first cos of her cute face then notice Rukia (Rukia looks cute there and in the intro too), then Ichigo
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Old 2008-06-15, 15:57   Link #4616
Warchef
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I looked at Inoue after I noticed the fact that Renji was super pissed that Rukia was trying to bite Ichigo's meat. Everyone looks oblivious to the fighting, other than Ishida who is the one that Ichigo seems to be yelling at.
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Old 2008-06-15, 15:57   Link #4617
Langus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiroInazuma View Post
What you said about 3 main characters being a fail...urm may I point you to (Even in this list it depends on what you call main characters):

Death Note: L, Ryuk, Light and Misa
Tsubasa Chronicles: Kurogane, Faye, Sakura, Syoaran
Naruto: Sakura, Kakashi, Naruto, Sasuke
He is my Master: Izumi, Perverted guy, Izumi's lesbian stalker, Izumi's little sister, Pochi/Pucchi I forgot
Soul Eater: Black*Star, Tsubaki, Maka, Shinigami, Death Scythe, Stein, Soul, Kidd, Thomspon Sisters
Shaman King: Yoh, Morty, Anna and Ren
Tenchi: Tenchi, Ryoko, Ayaka
Air Gear: Agito/Akito, Ikki, Ringo, Kazu, Onigiri, Buucha
Tenjou Tenge: Aya, Maya, Souchirou, Bob
Shuffle: The guy, Kaede, Aya, Devil girl, Angel girl
.Hack//: Too much to list

There is nothing wrong with having 2 heroines IMO it makes the story much more fun especially if they both are friends but are still the main love intrests and even though they make it subtle they are constantly contesting for the affection of the main character which isn't happening but I won't mind it
Death Note: Misa? Seriously? Any Death Note fan knows that that series was entirely about the intellectual relationship between L and Light. Ryuk was there as a narrative piece that's it.

Naruto: The focal point of the entire series is Naruto's relationship with Sasuke. Even now Sakura is still very much a side character.

Haven't seen any of the other series you listed, but based on the ones that I do know that I've commented on you've proven nothing.


In regards to the picture - I think it's really really lame to be looking so into a picture that was clearly designed to be a funny/light-hearted piece. Though I will point out that when I first looked at the picture my attention was drawn to the Ichigo/Renji/Rukia scene. I had to step back to take notice of Orihime. Your eye goes right past her because she's not meant to be the focal point of the scene. Doesn't mean anything about her character or the relationship between Rukia and Ichigo - just thought I'd point it out.
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Old 2008-06-15, 15:58   Link #4618
HaNa-san
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Originally Posted by DjTrizz View Post
FYI - focal point does not mean the center of attention is actually in the center.
Who's in the center then?

Ok here's a brief summary about what focal point means..

The focal point is the center of an attention. It means the most important element, at least, of an architectural device.

For example, if one were making a sculpture in the middle of a park, the sculpture would probably be the focal point. The key is how to make the objects easy or hard to notice. Focal points are very vital in order to make designís identity interesting. If an architect doesnít emphasize something in his work, it will be turned into nothing, something banal. In contradiction, some architect designs project with excessive emphasize, it is also a problem because it tries to capture visually but competing each other of the architectural element. There is a threat in over focused on design, imposing visions on people and not understanding how to maximize focal point. Without a focal point, people will lose interest in no time because he does not know what he should look and what he must look. It may sound simple but itís important

As it said it can be simple (small size) but it's so important to the picture as it has the most interesting action or idea..

from here: http://architectook.net/what-is-the-...f-focal-point/
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Old 2008-06-15, 16:10   Link #4619
Warchef
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In regards to the interview fiasco, I decided to confer with a friend and get him to tell me and Asam his thoughts on it. Enjoy....

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=2626521
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Old 2008-06-15, 16:18   Link #4620
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@Hana-san: Don't get me wrong. I care about what happens with regards to pairings in Bleach, but I'm not getting angry or taking things personally. As for Rukia's potential I meant right now, she has none. Whereas Orihime has - right now. Not saying she won't have an important role to play at some point. But you can use that against me if you wish. Just don't take it out of context.

Rukia is in the centre, but size does matter. Orihime is the centre of attention. The eye is drawn to her, because she owns that color spread. Isn't that what focal point means? The first thing I noticed when I looked at the color spread was Orihime. Not anyone else. Take that as you will.

As for lolinnuendo. I can't believe I'm even mentioning this..

'Rukia is clearly taking a bite out of Ichigo's meat!' <- So Rukia is giving Ichigo a little something! You expect me to take that seriously. Please just keep that crap in the fanclubs, you won't see Sinta using it. If Orihime switched places with Rukia what would you say? You would say it represents Orihime being a stalker while Ichigo is facing the other way. Showing it's not mutual.
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