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View Poll Results: Who is your Favourite SHUFFLE! girl?
Asa 122 43.88%
Kaede 68 24.46%
Kareha 9 3.24%
Lisianthus 16 5.76%
Mayumi 8 2.88%
Nerine 30 10.79%
Primula 25 8.99%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2006-11-13, 19:20   Link #741
Arimfe
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Join Date: May 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
one can argue that in the beginning rin already had a thing for asa in the first place
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^ View Post
Actually Rin did have something for Asa in the beginning but no idea how serious it was.
None of this is one bit convincing.
Where Rin's feelings set in stone to be for Asa the day he was born or not? Which one is it?
Let's bring up Sia to the table. What if I argue that Rin's human heart is swayable?
As much as you argue that Rin liked Asa from the very beginning of his existence, what happened between Rin and Sia would be proof that you are wrong wouldn't it?
Rin's feelings are apparently swayable.
And Asa did do things to sway those feelings, at the same time treacherously pretending to support Kaede.
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Old 2006-11-13, 21:30   Link #742
Vexx
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By the time Rin and Kaede first met Asa, R&K had already been through her realization that she had been erroneously mistreating Rin and she was dedicated to him -- its the main reason she *started* to learn to cook. Rin's dedication to Kaede is why he was so protective of her, why he waited for her when she attended cooking club. Asa was jealous that such a person could exist. It isn't explicit in the story and we might infer that Asa's desire for Rin and manipulation (there was inference that Kaede was invited over to practice cooking and oh yeah, bring Rin too). Asa seemed to be okay with just liking Rin from the side though she pretty aggressively strutted around him hoping he'd notice her. When he did, she lunged and we got the 4 or 5 episodes of Asa doing her "Kaede who?" routine until at the last few seconds admitting she'd been really evil ("monster") but hey she won and Kaede was just roadkill. Her apology rang pretty hollow.

That's the interpretation of what happened assuming the writers didn't have their collective heads up in a dark place --- I really suspect they didn't intend for Asa to become so hated by so many but thats where their ineptitude took it.

I don't actually mind the idea of Asa winning but I really think they could tweak it enough so she doesn't end up being a Shakespearean villian in a tragedy. All it would take is Asa showing some serious concern for Kaede in the latter part of that arc (and rewriting Asa's arc so she doesn't sound like an idiot as well as a Kaede trampler). It might have been better if the Kaede arc (and Rin parting from her, helping her to be free) had been accomplished before starting anything with Asa.
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Old 2006-11-13, 21:53   Link #743
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
By the time Rin and Kaede first met Asa, R&K had already been through her realization that she had been erroneously mistreating Rin and she was dedicated to him -- its the main reason she *started* to learn to cook. Rin's dedication to Kaede is why he was so protective of her, why he waited for her when she attended cooking club. Asa was jealous that such a person could exist. It isn't explicit in the story and we might infer that Asa's desire for Rin and manipulation (there was inference that Kaede was invited over to practice cooking and oh yeah, bring Rin too). Asa seemed to be okay with just liking Rin from the side though she pretty aggressively strutted around him hoping he'd notice her. When he did, she lunged and we got the 4 or 5 episodes of Asa doing her "Kaede who?" routine until at the last few seconds admitting she'd been really evil ("monster") but hey she won and Kaede was just roadkill. Her apology rang pretty hollow.

That's the interpretation of what happened assuming the writers didn't have their collective heads up in a dark place --- I really suspect they didn't intend for Asa to become so hated by so many but thats where their ineptitude took it.

I don't actually mind the idea of Asa winning but I really think they could tweak it enough so she doesn't end up being a Shakespearean villian in a tragedy. All it would take is Asa showing some serious concern for Kaede in the latter part of that arc (and rewriting Asa's arc so she doesn't sound like an idiot as well as a Kaede trampler). It might have been better if the Kaede arc (and Rin parting from her, helping her to be free) had been accomplished before starting anything with Asa.
I agree the writing afdter Asa went into the hospital was pretty bad. I was waiting for Asa to ask Rin about Kaede the whole time. The fact that Asa didn't ask was just so out of character. If shuffle memories does nothing else but fix that part of the writing then they have gone a long way fixing soe of the writers mistakes.
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Old 2006-11-13, 22:18   Link #744
Moon Eclipse
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I really don't see any way they can maintain Asa as a "good guy" while making sure she ends up with Rin unless they play down the importance of Rin in Kaede's life. This of course would totally ruin the series and destroy the major appeal of the story and the arch within.
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Old 2006-11-13, 23:04   Link #745
Bloodseeker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arimfe View Post
Another question is, was Rin really in love with Asa right off the bat when they met?
Or did Asa's seduction schemes have a say in how his feelings turned out?

After all, I do think the things she did was done as an active pursuit of Rin. At the same time pretentiously preaching her "support" to Kaede.

That's Asa's character for you.

Are you going to argue that Rin's feelings and destiny was set in stone to be for Asa the day he was born and that "love can't be acquired"?
I don't think that either of them realized it or planned it so much as it just kinda happened. Its not as if Asa planned getting sick and having a bonding session with Rin. And where did you pick up the idea that Asa is the scheming sort?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arimfe
Strength? Too weak for me. I have no respect for Asa's character.

The flower shop scene prior to this was a pretty good indicator of what kind of strength it is her character has.
Asa was standing in front of the flower shop thinking, "Should I buy Kaede some flowers? hmmm"
Then she turns around and walks away with her "nah I better not" attitude.
Then the shop owner comes out to fish Asa back.
Then Asa made "oh I better buy her something after all"

For future reference, anyone trying to argue Asa "compassion" using the "she bought flowers" should give credit where it's due, and that credit belongs to the flower shop owner.

Back to Asa's strength of character.
"as soon as you get out of the hospital"???
Strength of character should have kicked in the moment she wakes up in the hospital. Asking Rin about it, questioning what the heck happened, make a phone call to Kaede, do SOMETHING while in the hospital, not afterwards. We got to see just about nothing from Asa when in the hospital. That's enough damning evidence just by itself, the way I see it.
"Okay, I'm awake!" *bounces out bed* "Time to buy Kaede some flowers and pay her a visit instead of waiting until I feel better and more in the state of mind that I'll need to be in for the potentially intense confrontation that's waiting for me!"

Goddamn, she went out of her way and gave a heartfelt apology for falling in love with her love interest after being attacked by her and even bought her some flowers! Most people would have just decided that the attack voided any apology that they might have owed and viewed themselves as the victim instead, expected Kaede to find them and give them an apology, and possibly even met that apology with a "Screw you, you psycho bitch! You attacked me!" or "Forgiven, now leave me alone." kind of attitude. Initiating the apology in the heartfelt manner that she did is very strong strength of character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arimfe
ep21 5m10s.
Asa: "Is Kaede still feeling ill?"
She was asking because Kaede was absent from school, just like Sia and Nerine did a few scenes before. Not because she was concerned about her menal state.

Which is further proven when Asa asks Rin: "And what's the truth? Well it's odd that Kaede won't see Sia-chan and Nerine-chan."
Drumroll........: Asa: "Is it my fault?"

Look a bit more in-depth please. Don't give her more credit than she deserves.
So she's worried that Kaede had shut herself out because Rin choose somebody else? Whipe the biased from your observations, please. That wasn't just a casual "So what's up with Kaede? She hasn't been at school lately." It was obvious that she was worrying about Kaede.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arimfe
Except that Asa didn't play the game fair.

The point is we don't care even if it didn't made any difference! The point is the difference would be that we would have seen Asa in a different light!
That's the point! Character! Not the result, but Character!
Again, its not like she was intentionally going behind Kaede's back, and there's no evidence that she didn't tell Kaede. Maybe the director assumed that it wouldn't become an issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arimfe
Thing is, when did she ever give Kaede reason to question her?
She preached to Kaede things like ""Rin-chan is Kaede's knight and Kaede's knight alone, right?"
Making Kaede think she has her senpai's support and that she had all the time to herself to go at it in her own pace like she had always done.
Like I've been saying, I don't think that the bonding was intentional by either party, but it happened. And while I don't feel like checking right now (I have to leave for work in about two hours, and I'd rather not spend it jumping around Shuffle episodes looking for post-acknowledgement words of support for RinXKaede from Asa), I don't remember her saying that all that often, or towards the middle of the series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arimfe
First of all you are the one with the burden of proof, not us.
At first she may not have been surprised because she trusted in Asa, remember how Asa encouraged her?
Afterwards, when that thing went on long enough and Asa visited Kaede at home with Rin, we found out Kaede's reaction to it all when she realized what was going on.
You don't think that was surprise/reaction enough?
That would have happened regardless of whether Asa had told her or not (and maybe she did... it was never a point that the show brought up), and Kaede would have snapped in one way or another with any of the girls, seeing as how it was losing Rin and the neglect on Rin's part that drove her off the edge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arimfe
Surely "he's mine now, look elsewhere" is lesser evil than a false hope like "sure, go ahead chase after my relationship with Rin all you want"

That is what can be considered pure evil by some, and someone made a good point about it here already: http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...6&postcount=45
That was a conversation for another time (a time when Kaede wasn't so down and unstable... one step at a time), if ever. You can't just argue that someone needs to walk away from their love interest and have it happen. (trust me, I've tried) Kaede needed to come to the realization that it was over on her own. Besides, coming from Asa (the "winner"), it would sound stuck up. It wasn't her place.
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Old 2006-11-13, 23:25   Link #746
Moon Eclipse
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Honestlym Asa isn't the devil, but you can't try and play her off as some sort of humanitarian either. From what I've seen her of her actions, I'd even rank her as below the average person in terms of compassion and loyalty.

The very fact that Asa continues to flirt with Rin, while knowing she has feelings for him and knowing what Rin means to Kaede (her best friend) shows exactly her motives from the get go. She began to betray Kaede long before her and Rin hooked up. And whether you dismiss this as an unconscious decision or categorize it as conscious decision it was still wrong of her. She shouldn't have done it if she was truely a loyal friend to Kaede and an all round good person.

Second her lack of forewarning to Kaede that yes she's developing feeling and pursuing a relationship with Rin supports the idea that she would all along be back stabbing and sneaking around Kaede's back. That she feels guilt of betraying Kaede, and/or that she doesn't even register Kaede's feelings denoting how little her friendship with Kaede really means. This also goes to show how callious and malicious she really is as she doesn't even have the decancy to care about another person's feelings beyond her own.

Third, never really approached Kaede to apologize to her. Kaede was the one that sought her out. The apology that resulted was half hearted at best. I think anyone could see that at least. The fact that it took her that long to even talk to Kaede about it gives me the impression she never really was concerned with Kaede so much as keeping the peace within the group.

All these things really put into doubt Asa's sincerity about her friendship with Kaede, the pretense of her relationship with Rin, her support of her 'best friend', her basic humanity and loyalties. This does not just extend to Kaede either. It extends to her relationship with everyone besides Rin within the series, it's just most evident with Kaede since Asa's relationship with Kaede is the most established and affirmed in the series (with the exception of Asa's mother and maybe Rin)
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Old 2006-11-13, 23:26   Link #747
Bloodseeker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npal View Post
The ever so unimportant bridge scene is OOC, as is most of ep 21, if you actually care to take the REST of the series AND the last few episodes into account. Depends on your take. Will you assume that 3 episodes (18-20) displayed OOC behavior, or just one? Logic says pick the simpler case.
Neither were OOC. Plenty of people have an easy time analyzing and dealing with other people's problems and a hard time analyzing and dealing with their own. Just look at Doctor Phil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by npal
Asa telling Kaede that she, too, likes Rin should get MAJOR screentime or the director is a total idiot and should quit his job I'm sure Kaede would have something to say about it. Not to mention that that confrontation would speak volumes of Asa's character (for good or ill, depends on the writers).
But the point is that it didn't. Any speculation that she went behind Kaede's back is just that: speculation. The director probably didn't foresee all of the Asa hate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by npal
Furthermore, when your friend snaps and you're surprised, once you wake up, the common thing to do is ask what happened, but neither Asa nor Rin cared to ask that question, ever, until the FABLED ep 21, when suddenly they turned into considerate people and it just dawned on them that they should care about what happened to Kaede.
Asa was in the hospital, remember? And yeah, Rin is a dick for neglecting Kaede.

Quote:
Originally Posted by npal
It's not like Asa told Kaede she was going out with Rin, Rin just went out anyway. I didn't see Asa thinking about what might befall Kaede, I think she was pretty happy for someone who knows the situation in Rin's house in good detail.
I already went over this... Kaede was hiding it. Its unreasonable to expect someone to sit there and watch their friends for signs of hidden emotional problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by npal
I don't need to recount the arguments of why Asa should have acted otherwise with Rin, they are in multiple threads, in this one and in the now locked Closure for Kaede thread.

Eps 19-20 show lack of concern on both Rin and Asa's part, as if Kaede doesn't exist. Asa, who WAS the one more affected, as Kaede caused her collapsing, should have asked what happened, unless she already knew, and she didnt' seem that concerned to me.
Yes, damn that bitch for spending one episode not noticing and worrying about her friend's well-hidden emotional problems and the next in the hospital. People like her... deserve to die!

Quote:
Originally Posted by npal
Depends on how's it's handled, BUT it unfortunately has good potential to be a very effective, crippling TREASON. Now, if you cannot comprehend that, I'm not the one who's going to argue on moral grounds. If you'd feel good with that situation, by all means, do it to others, too.
Again, no evidence she did go behind her back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by npal
PS : Anyone who wants to praise green, may do it on the appropriate thread. Most of us don't take green/rin appreciation invasion in this thread lightly.
God forbid that someone support Kaede but not think that Asa did anything wrong... you can't attack Asa and not expect people that do like her not to come to her defense.
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Old 2006-11-13, 23:32   Link #748
Bloodseeker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon Eclipse View Post
Honestlym Asa isn't the devil, but you can't try and play her off as some sort of humanitarian either. From what I've seen her of her actions, I'd even rank her as below the average person in terms of compassion and loyalty.
Bridge scene.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon Eclipse
The very fact that Asa continues to flirt with Rin, while knowing she has feelings for him and knowing what Rin means to Kaede (her best friend) shows exactly her motives from the get go. She began to betray Kaede long before her and Rin hooked up. And whether you dismiss this as an unconscious decision or categorize it as conscious decision it was still wrong of her. She shouldn't have done it if she was truely a loyal friend to Kaede and an all round good person.
Again, there are very few things that justify ignoring mutual love. Its not fair to the other lover to ignore them because your friend likes them too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon Eclipse
Second her lack of forewarning to Kaede that yes she's developing feeling and pursuing a relationship with Rin supports the idea that she would all along be back stabbing and sneaking around Kaede's back. That she feels guilt of betraying Kaede, and/or that she doesn't even register Kaede's feelings denoting how little her friendship with Kaede really means. This also goes to show how callious and malicious she really is as she doesn't even have the decancy to care about another person's feelings beyond her own.
She did show guilt and sympathy. The bridge scene, dammit! The scene that you guys keep shrugging off is the scene that proves that she DID care!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon Eclipse
Third, never really approached Kaede to apologize to her. Kaede was the one that sought her out. The apology that resulted was half hearted at best. I think anyone could see that at least. The fact that it took her that long to even talk to Kaede about it gives me the impression she never really was concerned with Kaede so much as keeping the peace within the group.
No, Asa was the one that sought Kaede out. And crying and hugs aren't what I'd call half-hearted.
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Old 2006-11-13, 23:42   Link #749
Moon Eclipse
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This bridge scene that you keep talking about was extremely weak, which is why everyone keeps ignoring it. It poorly done and does not make up for everything that went on. For the people who you keep trying to using it as a defense for it was forced and completely idiotic, patched together as a vain attempt to bandaid the enmormous gaping wound left from the previous episodes. I'm sorry but your "bridge scene" just doesn't begin to stop the bleeding.

The bridge scene was also either quite coincidental or a product of Kaede going out in the rain and looking for Asa.

As for your "mutual love". It wasn't demonstrated to be "mutual love" until after the betrayal of Kaede. Love doesn't cause people to become insensitive. In fact it should do quite the oppposite. Asa should have still maintained her sensitivity to Kaede's feeling who she was best friends with (my own feeling here but I would believe that "best friends" would love eachother too. Where was the compassion and respect there?).

Sorry just like to add I don't believe I'll be replying any further than this in case I over step my bounds
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Old 2006-11-14, 00:32   Link #750
Bloodseeker
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Originally Posted by Moon Eclipse View Post
This bridge scene that you keep talking about was extremely weak, which is why everyone keeps ignoring it. It poorly done and does not make up for everything that went on. For the people who you keep trying to using it as a defense for it was forced and completely idiotic, patched together as a vain attempt to bandaid the enmormous gaping wound left from the previous episodes. I'm sorry but your "bridge scene" just doesn't begin to stop the bleeding.

The bridge scene was also either quite coincidental or a product of Kaede going out in the rain and looking for Asa.
Or maybe we can just assume that one of them called the other (could have been Asa as well as Kaede... she was just as sorry), and they decided to meet at the bridge for dramatic effect.

And no, it wasn't weak. Asa cried and apologized, and both sides showed that they were genuinely sorry. And yes, I do keep coming back to that, because that was the scene that showed that Asa cared! Its the scene that unravels the argument that Asa didn't care. And it was all that was needed to get the point across. It would have been overdone if they kept showing Asa sitting around depressed about what happened to Kaede, especially since Asa was the one in trouble during the last episodes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon Eclipse
As for your "mutual love". It wasn't demonstrated to be "mutual love" until after the betrayal of Kaede. Love doesn't cause people to become insensitive. In fact it should do quite the oppposite. Asa should have still maintained her sensitivity to Kaede's feeling who she was best friends with (my own feeling here but I would believe that "best friends" would love eachother too. Where was the compassion and respect there?).
Well of course, you've been saying from the beginning that the love itself is a betrayal! (it would have been a betrayal of the self to not acknowledge the mutual love) And once again, the bridge scene!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon Eclipse
Sorry just like to add I don't believe I'll be replying any further than this in case I over step my bounds
Just as well... you don't seem to be listening anyways.
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Old 2006-11-14, 01:17   Link #751
Moon Eclipse
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Because at this point I sort of feel personally attacked by the last comment I think I have to say that I have been listening.

First off I'd like to apologize. There is a miscommunication here, I was not specific enough as to why I believe the bridge scene was not adequate so I will go into detail as to why I believe it wasn't.

First off because it was an apology after the fact. The bridge scene only happened after Kaede's abandonment by just about everyone she cared about. Her supposed "Best Friend" and the man she loved. This is something that shouldn't have happened regardless of the feelings between Asa and Rin, first because this is not proper behavior of someone you could consider your "best friend". Second for someone that people should believe to be a supportive and loyal person it is out of character for Asa.

Second, the meeting between them did not bring closure as it should have. The ending result was not Kaede gets of Rin, Asa wins Rin. It was one of let's just pretend the last few days never happened, we'll both do our seperate things. "You and I both love Rin, I'll ignore you loving him as long as I can have him and you'll ignore the fact that he's my boyfriend and keep thinking you have a chance."

There's nothing even realistic nevermind romantic about this ending. Personally I would never stand for it.

Third, given Kaede's continued instability it's unrealistic for her to accept this as easily as she did once she met Asa. Their conversation was much to civil to be realisitic of a girl who's entire world and reason for living has gotten torn away from her by someone close to her someone she trusted and never suspected. Regardless of the "time" that's gone by. It's not something a person can deal with emotional or psychologically that quickly. It often takes years and years to cope with this issues. It's just not believeable to me especially for someone that admittedly continues to have deep emotional attachments to Rin and was almost thrown into a murderous rage because of it.

Fourth, most of the emotions in the bridge scene was expressed by Kaede, she was the one that did the majority of apologizing even though I view her as the victum in this circumstance. Asa's secondary apologizes only further my belief that she wasn't truely sorry and would at best be just apologizing because of the mood of the moment.

Fifth Asa herself confesses her callious towards Kaede's feelings, admitting she should have been more sensitive (were she a real friend). This brings to the mind the question "why didn't she"? (at least in my mind, the only explanation for her utter negelect of her duties to a friend would be that she never really was one to begin with)

Six, the bridge scene was too short to resolve everything that had happen to that point including the anamosities that had grown between the two.

Seven, Asa cried for all of 30 seconds or less in the scene.

Eight, Asa didn't even make an attempt to talk to Kaede her "best friend" until after her meeting with Rin and not until after she found out Kaede wouldn't see Sai or Nerine. Not the actions of a "best friend". They would got see what's wrong directly if they actually cared not like some gossiping 3rd party.

Primula showed more interest in Kaede's well being than anyone in the series and supposedly they had only met recently in comparision to... oh let's say Asa who she's known for years...

For Kaede to still be dealing with her emotional turmoil on the bridge and then meet for the cause of her turmoil and not freak out is just unreal.

Lastly for all these problems with the scene to exist and still have it come out okay in the end is laughable to me.

These are the reasons why I believe the bridge scene to be completely devoid of any substance. It holds no water as an argument in my mind. This is why I seemingly ignore it when you use it as a defence for Asa's behavior.

Like I stated previously, a flimbsy band-aid for a big gaping wound.


As for you "denial of love". Once again I'm not against Rin and Asa getting together. What I'm saying is the way in which they got together is not befitting of people that thoughtout the series have maintained that they care about Kaede. You cannot say they weren't ignorant of her pain and suffering all the while off in their own little world because it was demonstrated in the series over and over again. Through pictures of them having fun, and then kaede alone. Through Rin going to Asa's and Kaede waiting alone at home. Though Rin's broken promises to Kaede because he decided on a whim to go out with Asa. The slow progressive deterioration of Kaede's mental and emotional health happened over a series of episodes. Lot of times where either one could show they still cared for Kaede, lots of times where either one could have notified her of what was going on. Talked to her, made sure she was okay, worried about her. But none of that was shown. I don't remember ever even hearing about Asa asking about Kaede even after she broke down. (I'm not saying there wasn't I just don't believe there was please point me to the episode number if I'm wrong).

Asa showed no real interest in Kaede until after she had secured Rin for herself and only after her talk with Rin made her feel quilty about Kaede's condition.
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Old 2006-11-14, 01:31   Link #752
Arimfe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodseeker
I don't think that either of them realized it or planned it so much as it just kinda happened. Its not as if Asa planned getting sick and having a bonding session with Rin. And where did you pick up the idea that Asa is the scheming sort?
I don't think you paid enough attention to what Asa did. At the beginning of the series, Asa hid him under the table from the fanclubs. Remember what she did? With the blush on her face, she took her hands and grabbed his head, then shoved his head up to her panties. After that he was asked what her panties where like...
I'm not making this up. And I doubt you can argue this was unintentional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodseeker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arimfe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodseeker
Quote:
Originally Posted by rei
Not staying away. It's not wrong to love someone whom your friend also like. The keyword is HONESTY. Just be honest & tell your friend that you also like him/her. Then that would be even. Asa supported Kaede & make her believe that she supported her love. But she make her moves mostly behind Kaede's back & hid her true feeling towards Rin from her. She only told the truth AFTER things had gone her way.
I don't see how that would have made a difference in the way things turned out.
The point is we don't care even if it didn't made any difference! The point is the difference would be that we would have seen Asa in a different light!
That's the point! Character! Not the result, but Character!
Again, its not like she was intentionally going behind Kaede's back, and there's no evidence that she didn't tell Kaede. Maybe the director assumed that it wouldn't become an issue.
Burden of proof is still on your side, if there's no evidence suggesting she didn't, logic would suggest that she didn't.
On the other hand, we are hinted, when Asa felt it necessary to admit to Kaede she was jealous of her ever since they met.
Now, IF she actually did tell Kaede before as you seem to blindly believe, why the need to admit to Kaede at the end?

What we know for fact was that Asa liked Rin all along ever since they met.
Asa was playing the supportive senpai in episode 1 12m45s. Asa to Kaede/Rin: "Rin-chan is Kaede's knight and Kaede's knight alone, right?"
At the same time, she would do things like shoving his head up to her panties.

So much for your "not like she was intentionally going behind Kaede's back"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodseeker
And while I don't feel like checking right now, I don't remember her saying that all that often, or towards the middle of the series.
episode 1 12m45s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodseeker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arimfe
At first she may not have been surprised because she trusted in Asa, remember how Asa encouraged her?
Afterwards, when that thing went on long enough and Asa visited Kaede at home with Rin, we found out Kaede's reaction to it all when she realized what was going on.
You don't think that was surprise/reaction enough?
That would have happened regardless of whether Asa had told her or not (and maybe she did... it was never a point that the show brought up), and Kaede would have snapped in one way or another with any of the girls, seeing as how it was losing Rin and the neglect on Rin's part that drove her off the edge.
The fact that it wasn't shown is heavy indication by itself that it never happened. You are still the one to prove that it happened if it happened.
While you argue that losing Rin etc. was the main issue, I can argue that her trusted senpai's betrayal was helping it. Making it much worse even.
It may be that she wouldn't have gone that far if Asa was honest with her like the other girls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodseeker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arimfe
Strength of character should have kicked in the moment she wakes up in the hospital. Asking Rin about it, questioning what the heck happened, make a phone call to Kaede, do SOMETHING while in the hospital, not afterwards. We got to see just about nothing from Asa when in the hospital. That's enough damning evidence just by itself, the way I see it.
"Okay, I'm awake!" *bounces out bed* "Time to buy Kaede some flowers and pay her a visit instead of waiting until I feel better and more in the state of mind that I'll need to be in for the potentially intense confrontation that's waiting for me!"
SOMETHING...
Not a visit to Kaede, but at least something, like questioning what the heck just happened. We got nothing. Character. That's her character for you. Weak weak Character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodseeker
Quote:
Originally Posted by npal
Furthermore, when your friend snaps and you're surprised, once you wake up, the common thing to do is ask what happened, but neither Asa nor Rin cared to ask that question, ever, until the FABLED ep 21, when suddenly they turned into considerate people and it just dawned on them that they should care about what happened to Kaede.
Asa was in the hospital, remember?
Being in hospital is not an excuse to not question WTF happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodseeker
Goddamn, she went out of her way and gave a heartfelt apology for falling in love with her[Kaede?] love interest after being attacked by her and even bought her some flowers!
All credits for the flowers belongs to the flower shop owner.

That apology, her admitting that she went after Rin despite knowing Kaede's feelings was the least she could do. Not impressive. I would have preferred she told Kaede before going after Rin...

edit: Moon Eclipse put this thing much more thoroughly in depth in previous post than this. I really agree with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodseeker
Most people would have just decided that the attack voided any apology that they might have owed and viewed themselves as the victim instead, expected Kaede to find them and give them an apology, and possibly even met that apology with a "Screw you, you psycho bitch! You attacked me!" or "Forgiven, now leave me alone." kind of attitude.
Maybe your "friends" would? :|
My "friends" would most likely want explanation for why I attacked them. We are talking about friends here, good friends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodseeker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arimfe
ep21 5m10s.
Asa: "Is Kaede still feeling ill?"
She was asking because Kaede was absent from school, just like Sia and Nerine did a few scenes before. Not because she was concerned about her menal state.

Which is further proven when Asa asks Rin: "And what's the truth? Well it's odd that Kaede won't see Sia-chan and Nerine-chan."
Drumroll........: Asa: "Is it my fault?"

Look a bit more in-depth please. Don't give her more credit than she deserves.
So she's worried that Kaede had shut herself out because Rin choose somebody else? Whipe the biased from your observations, please. That wasn't just a casual "So what's up with Kaede? She hasn't been at school lately." It was obvious that she was worrying about Kaede.
That was a 100% lossless transcript of one of the fansubs, this observation wasn't edited by my "bias" in any way.
That was indeed just a casual "So what's up with Kaede? She hasn't been at school lately."
There's was no worry or concern for Kaede's state. She even QUESTIONED whether she herself had anythin to do with it. Read the text carefully or watch it yourself again. "And what's the truth? Well it's odd that Kaede won't see Sia-chan and Nerine-chan."

Again, this is Asa's brilliant Character for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodseeker
That was a conversation for another time (a time when Kaede wasn't so down and unstable... one step at a time), if ever. You can't just argue that someone needs to walk away from their love interest and have it happen. (trust me, I've tried) Kaede needed to come to the realization that it was over on her own.
The points still stands, you don't help her realize that it's over if you continue to trap her in the illusion that "one day he'll be yours". We saw at the end, it didn't help Kaede realize anything, even one bit.
It's still evil if you ask me. Way more evil than the alternative rei pointed out.
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Old 2006-11-14, 01:34   Link #753
npal
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Just be sure not to go overboard too much or the thread might get locked.

About the Kaede's Arc +bridge scene being OOC, don't ask me, there are several people (some of the highly respected as well) from neutral parties that agree on this notion, if you still think it is easily IC, I can't say anything more.
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Old 2006-11-14, 02:38   Link #754
Vexx
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The bridge scene came way too late (after all the damage was done) and basically boiled down to "I'm a monster but I win, sucks to be you, its sad" --- seriously, based on the characterization of Asa for the first 17 or so episodes, either they intended to write her as some Machivellian princess or --- there was a failure of communication between the writers of each of the arcs and poor integration by the senior writer. We end up with two very interesting but very different interpretations of the characters (especially Asa) spliced together in a terribly lame way.

I guess I wouldn't even mind that Asa was portrayed to win Rin via underhanded means (which would have been controversial and dramatic) but then they ruin even that with the last half of the last episode by having the rest of girls just smile and continue to say they love Rin and smile-happy-happy-harem-reset-hell.

To borrow from anime philosophy: the writers were indecisive and therefore unfair to all the girls including Asa.

The writers said they were going to give us a controversial series... but instead of shocking as they'd hoped... it comes closer to "drop the ball" stupid on their part.

Last edited by Vexx; 2006-11-14 at 03:48.
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Old 2006-11-14, 03:38   Link #755
Skyfall
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The bridge scene was not OOC, but in no way did it redeem Asa or even close to that. As Vexx said - it came way too late. Basically Asa simply confesed about things that had allready taken place. She is in no way imaginable a best friend type of person. Even a good friend for that matter. She perfectly fits the bill of "With friends like that, who needs enemies".

In fact, enemies might be a good thing, since Kaede's suposed 'enemies'(Sia and Nerine) showed more concern about Kaede that her 'best friend'(who did not show any concern to begin with). A question - would Kaede suffer such a mental breakdown if Sia or Nerine would have won? I think not, because those two really cared for Kaede and were honest about their feelings towards Rin - Asa thing came crashing down on kaede from the blue. Besides Nerine and Sia did not mind sharing, while Asa gives Kaede permission to love Rin from afar - if that is not pure cruelty i don't know what is.

Asa was after Rin just like all the other girls from the start, but she was the only one that acted as suportative friend when she really wasn't. She never showed any concern about Kaede after her breakdown. Never.. She even questions "is it my fault?". Um...hello? If that is how friends act i better get rid of all my friends quickly.... oh, wait - friends do not act that way. At least not ones that are worthy enough to be called 'friends'. At least Asa got one thing right in the end - calling herself a monster.
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Old 2006-11-14, 05:12   Link #756
rei
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My opinion of Asa will not change. I still think what she did is a treachery towards Kaede. Certain people doesn't seem to understand. Fanboyism / fangirlism? Nah, I rather call it different POV on Asa characteristic. Of course, some people wouldn't agree since they not on same wavelength as us when it comes to Asa.

Just to quote Vexx, "I've already said everything I'm going to say on the subject .... the threads are all there to see. No one has really come up with anything to add and only a few people have adjusted their opinions so I"m done with it."

Oh, btw Bloodseeker, most of your responds (in attempt to defend Asa) are repetitive. Therefore, I'll guide you to the Closure on Kaede thread. You might find all the things that you need to know there. Any effort to defend Asa in the KKK Club will fail.
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Old 2006-11-14, 08:23   Link #757
Haru~
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come to think of it.....all of you just copy paste copy paste...same thing all over again... it's the same debate....nobody wins or loss....its just a waste of time... if you can't accept other people...it's their own way of thinking...own way of pespective.... in that way we all make ourselves winners....it's ur choice to be an asa fan... and i choose kaede... then the case closed... if somebody hate asa because of this and somebody kaede because of this....then accept it we can't change their opinion because it's their way of thinkin..
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Old 2006-11-14, 09:33   Link #758
Sawamura
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Originally Posted by rave_master16 View Post
come to think of it.....all of you just copy paste copy paste...same thing all over again... it's the same debate....nobody wins or loss....its just a waste of time... if you can't accept other people...it's their own way of thinking...own way of pespective.... in that way we all make ourselves winners....it's ur choice to be an asa fan... and i choose kaede... then the case closed... if somebody hate asa because of this and somebody kaede because of this....then accept it we can't change their opinion because it's their way of thinkin..
Yeah every watch the show and have their own personal view of the show we cant blame other people of having different views anyway the only greenie i like is Mion from higurashi
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Old 2006-11-14, 09:37   Link #759
Moon Eclipse
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I'd like to hear Skyfall's views as to why it wasn't OOC. Personally as I said before I believe it was because it seemed to shallow and out of place for the entire mood and swing of things
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Old 2006-11-14, 09:37   Link #760
Sawamura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
By the time Rin and Kaede first met Asa, R&K had already been through her realization that she had been erroneously mistreating Rin and she was dedicated to him -- its the main reason she *started* to learn to cook. Rin's dedication to Kaede is why he was so protective of her, why he waited for her when she attended cooking club. Asa was jealous that such a person could exist. It isn't explicit in the story and we might infer that Asa's desire for Rin and manipulation (there was inference that Kaede was invited over to practice cooking and oh yeah, bring Rin too). Asa seemed to be okay with just liking Rin from the side though she pretty aggressively strutted around him hoping he'd notice her. When he did, she lunged and we got the 4 or 5 episodes of Asa doing her "Kaede who?" routine until at the last few seconds admitting she'd been really evil ("monster") but hey she won and Kaede was just roadkill. Her apology rang pretty hollow.

That's the interpretation of what happened assuming the writers didn't have their collective heads up in a dark place --- I really suspect they didn't intend for Asa to become so hated by so many but thats where their ineptitude took it.

I don't actually mind the idea of Asa winning but I really think they could tweak it enough so she doesn't end up being a Shakespearean villian in a tragedy. All it would take is Asa showing some serious concern for Kaede in the latter part of that arc (and rewriting Asa's arc so she doesn't sound like an idiot as well as a Kaede trampler). It might have been better if the Kaede arc (and Rin parting from her, helping her to be free) had been accomplished before starting anything with Asa.
Yeah i agree with you dumb rin should have help kaede move on with her live and move out of the house before going for asa but no............

We dont need a war to start here i am just voicing my opininon
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