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View Poll Results: Who is your Favourite SHUFFLE! girl?
Asa 122 43.88%
Kaede 68 24.46%
Kareha 9 3.24%
Lisianthus 16 5.76%
Mayumi 8 2.88%
Nerine 30 10.79%
Primula 25 8.99%
Voters: 278. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2006-11-14, 09:39   Link #761
Sawamura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon Eclipse View Post
I'd like to hear Skyfall's views as to why it wasn't OOC. Personally as I said before I believe it was because it seemed to shallow and out of place for the entire mood and swing of things
Care to define OOC ?? noob here
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Old 2006-11-14, 09:53   Link #762
rei
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OOC = Out Of Character. And btw Sawamura, try to use the edit button instead of double posting. It's against the rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawamura View Post
Yeah i agree with you dumb rin should have help kaede move on with her live and move out of the house before going for asa but no............

We dont need a war to start here i am just voicing my opininon
Make that Rin & Asa. They BOTH should've help Kaede to move on with her life. Asa chided Rin for his indecisiveness. Why wouldn't she chided Kaede? Oh yeah...COMPASSION.

EDIT:

Just want to add something to my post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rin-Sama
Well for one it's hard to be sympathetic to your friend when your in the hospital in sever pain for 2/3 of the remaining episodes after 15. And what did you expect Asa to do under the bridge. tell Kaede to leave her man alone and goto hell? No of course not! She's not evil to do that. If you would remember Asa is actually supportive of Rin and Kaede being together in the series. It was Rin who chose to go after Asa, not Asa backstabbing Kaede and stealing Rin out from under her nose. And i don't think either Asa nor Kaede were put into crappy scripts. SHUFFLE! is one of the most dramatic Animes i have ever seen. And i think that it portays more of the real world than most other animes do. if you exclude the demons, gods, and migical powers
Okay.. you're not making sense any more and I'm beginning to wonder if you've ever done any literary analysis or how much real life experience you have to make those assertions, but lets just examine those points.

Asa had those attacks long before Kaede triggered one and Asa was doing quite nicely in the hospital. She wasn't in severe pain after that incident... just tired. The life-threatening situation was a few episodes later. A good friend would at least wonder what happened to Kaede and ask Rin about her. Asa didn't say *anything* about her.. good or bad. If you think highly of Asa, thats poor writing. It fails to keep the viewer sympathetic to her. I've had several relatives dying in the hospital in considerable respiratory pain - they were always concerned about everyone else, even long time enemies.

You've missed the point completely about the bridge scene. It was the first thing in a number of eps Asa did that made *sense* for her as a character ..... Asa *admitting she was a monster to Kaede* was right on and the comforting there was what I expect from Asa (he chose me and not you and there's not much we can do about that) . However, that caring Asa had been nowhere in sight for several episodes, either poor writing or it meant Asa had serious ethical problems. Choose one.

Then afterwards in the last ep Kaede says Asa said it was okay to "love Rin from afar" is just mental abuse .... a more understanding and in-character Asa would say "it sucks but Rin chose me... move on with life, there are other guys, let me help with that". But no, the writers were trying to do the lamest "harem reset" I've seen in dozens of romance anime series and ended up making Asa look like a queen bitch dangling her catch in front of the others. Any Asa fan who understands story writing should be appalled.

This is betrayal in the real world: to accept Rin's advances without making sure he has spoken to Kaede about it since Asa *knew* Kaede was long deeply in love with him and Asa was friends to both of them. Yes, Rin made the choice to go after Asa and had no intentions toward Kaede, it made him realistically flawed considering his long history with Kaede. But after spending 15 episodes defining Asa as a person who cared deeply about Kaede, the shift to "Kaede? Kaede who?" breaks the thread of belief -- you realize there are writers in the backroom just throwing lines out there in a flailing attempt to end the story. What a disservice to Asa...

I'm not going to insist you change your opinon about Asa as a character design ... I think "Asa of the first 15 episodes" was a really interesting character. But the Asa arc was just a directorial mess pertaining to Asa's motivations and her actions and trying to rationalize it is just an odd kind of zealotry.

Last edited by rei; 2006-11-14 at 10:54. Reason: put some quotes
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Old 2006-11-14, 09:57   Link #763
Moon Eclipse
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OCC- out of character. Action that is taken out side the normal scope of what the character would normally do.

Reasons as to why the bridge scene was out Out Of Character in my opinion.

Kaede is way to calm after having only recently suffered such a tramdic experience. The last time she suffered something like this she went catatonic and then became homocidal for years following. Since then she showed no improvement, only a repression of homocidal tendancies because of her change in goals. It still exists underneath everything there and because of the years of suppression it probably got worse not better.

For an overview of why Asa is OOC it's probably better to consult someone other than me

All in all the bridge scene seemed much less emotionally charged than what it should have been like. The emotional build up leading to Kaede's break down was well established throughout the series. Her extended depession was also well established. Her recovery seemed to happen within the span of 1 episode which leads me to believe the writers just hashed it together for simple goal of a fairy tale ending nearing the completion of the series.
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Old 2006-11-14, 10:01   Link #764
Sawamura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rei View Post
OOC = Out Of Character. And btw Sawamura, try to use the edit button instead of double posting. It's against the rules.
Oops sorry for my mistakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon Eclipse View Post
OCC- out of character. Action that is taken out side the normal scope of what the character would normally do.

Reasons as to why the bridge scene was out Out Of Character in my opinion.

Kaede is way to calm after having only recently suffered such a tramdic experience. The last time she suffered something like this she went catatonic and then became homocidal for years following. Since then she showed no improvement, only a repression of homocidal tendancies because of her change in goals. It still exists underneath everything there and because of the years of suppression it probably got worse not better.

For an overview of why Asa is OOC it's probably better to consult someone other than me
Actually a normal person would have went suicidal and have done something stupid after that kind of incident . Anyway that scene show's similiar signs of Rena from Higurashi although she is in Oyashiro mode but some how snap out of it . Anway i hope they do something in Shuffle memories to please us
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Old 2006-11-14, 10:08   Link #765
Skyfall
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Why i think it was not OOC? Hm...i think it would not be too much OOC for the Asa we grew to know for the first half of the show. As much as i dislike Asa i don't think she ever intended to hurt Kaede on purpouse. (she was simply too stupid and oblivious to realise she is doing just that)

The scene was somewhat in tune with how the 'original' Asa could act. Wether that was OOC depends on one thing - was the Asa we saw at the begining her true self or was her true character displayed during Kaede arc.... i am not really sure myself tbh.

It was the right thing to do(something she should have done long ago) and an apology is something i would expect of any human during those circumstances. It was not the best one(and certainly not the part where she allowed Kaede to love Rin from afar).

An aoplogy during that situation is something i think any human would do if he has at least some fraction of heart and brain functioning, so i simply find it hard to label this scene OOC because i think almost any human would react in a similar way. (It does not earn Asa any respect points from me, it just keeps her from descending even lower on my respect scale).

(Or i might be on crack and wrong on all levels imaginable for all i know :P)

@Sawamura: OOC = out of character.

It may also refer to a time when a fictional character's behaviour is different from, and inconsistent with, how the character's personality (particularly their mental and emotional state) has been established in the past, without any apparent reason. OOC tends to have a bad connotation in fanfiction, as it 'destroys' large parts of the character's personality. Many people will avoid or badly review a story with an OOC character or characters. (stolen from wiki)
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Old 2006-11-14, 10:14   Link #766
npal
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OOC stands for Out Of Character, used for behavior or a set of actions that contradict the established personality of a character with no apparent reason to back up the change. The opposite is IC, In Character.

In Asa's case, Asa was portrayed as a considerate, compassionate (more or less) individual that took notice of Kaede's feelings and was set on support role, mainly a guide or a catalyst (as was the case in Primula's case), with all that this disposition may imply. She was shown as being out of the game for her own reasons, which are perceived as having to do with her knowledge of Kaede's feelings along with the notion of "let's leave things as they are". People change, so it's not rare for someone like Asa to change and decide that she should be part of the ongoing game and win if she can. That's not OOC yet. Then comes the Kaede-Asa scene with Asa getting hospitalized. She wakes up and doesn't ask about Kaede situation, maybe OOC, maybe not, but if you ask me, an overall terrible development for an otherwise considerate character. Then she gets out and suddenly it just dawns on her that she just "MIGHT" be at fault, and although she finally admits she's at fault, she takes no action towards any form of redemption. For someone portrayed as wise and considerate before, this reeks of OOC situation. Unless the whole bridge thing is an act to appease the few doubts the after-ep18 new Asa might have about the whole situation, or a very well played and pre-medidated act of the new Asa, a strong gamble if you want, to bring things as close to normal as possible, while still not sacrificing anything she has gained in the past episodes.

But then, is it always OOC? Well, if Asa told Rin to get some space between them and work things out with Kaede first and we'll talk about it after some time passes and all seems ok, or even relinquish Rin, then it'd be the case of someone who got a bit too blind on his way to happiness (although that should have been made apparent IN the hospital not AFTER she got out, or it wouldn't make any sense), who made a mistake, saw through, and sought ways to amend for it. Some people will undoubtly argue about this whole thing (mutual love, you don't sacrifice your love for not even your friends, it was all fair and similar approaches), will stumble upon the fact that the Asa as portrayed in the pre-ep18 series might have just done that for Kaede. The after-ep18 Asa is just another selfish individual, as is the after-ep18 Rin, who was loved by all the girls for being exceptionally nice and compassionate. Ep 21 brought too little, too late, out of the blue, with little connection to previous behavior and little connection to future behavior. You either consider ep 18-20 as OOC, the whole of ep 21 as OOC, or the whole 18-21 arc had inconsistent, unreasonable character personality fluctuation and development.

Of course, the easiest part is to just accept that Asa and Rin are no angels and share all the responsibility of what befell Kaede, that their character development took them lower than where they were supposed to be pre-ep18 and that they are common selfish people, that finally tried what they could to bring things to normal while giving away nothing of what they have for someone else's wellfare. But NO ONE wants to accept that this is indeed so.
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Old 2006-11-14, 13:34   Link #767
Vexx
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I'll plead being human -- I'm known to break into conversations on the light rail commute if I hear two people trading fundamentally false data or one confusing the other with poor reasoning. All I can say is that most of my observations come from a lot of experience and being a teacher/tutor of literary analysis. I get the impression some fans forget that story characters are manifestations of the will and the *skills* of writers. Stories are about "suspension of disbelief" -- even in a fantasy world like Shuffle! or LOTR or Firefly, in order for the fantasy to work, certain human behaviors and expectations have to conform to the natural observed psychology of people. If a character deviates from their previously observed behavior, there has to be an eventually explained driving motivation that would justify the deviation... or it gets an "F" in creative writing.

@npal: succinct analysis <thumbs up>. The last paragraph occupies the third possiblity on my "whiteboard of Shuffle! analysis" .. that the writers fully intended that this be a story of initially noble characters falling into treachery and winning, leaving dashed hopes and in Kaede's case psychologically trampled personalities behind. And then at the end, leaving the other girls in a limbo hell just to rub the viewer's nose in it.
Yay.... Nietzchean philosophy wins the day.

As Rei is finding as he/she peruses the threads, I put a fair amount of energy into dissecting Shuffle! because I was/am very fond of what the series was/could-have-been. The manga ending
Spoiler:
shows where the story probably would have gone if the character development hadn't been fractured. <shrug> I can plot out a logically consistent "Asa FTW" scenario that doesn't require shredding the character development. It isn't very hard -- it just wasn't done and ultimately I blame the senior writer for failing to storyboard the entire series and then failing to keep tabs on what the arc writers were doing. Look at Kanon2006 .... watch the outstanding KyoAni *mechanics* of threading all the arcs together and tweaking the rough edges. I'll bet serious internet-$$ that they've storyboarded the entire series out and ensured character continuity.

As it is... from a purely commercial perspective, the solution that most of the audience would have enjoyed was a "Sia+Nerine+Kaede" ending with further polygamous possiblities (including Asa and Kareha and the kitchen sink). I'm wondering if Memories is Navel's attempt to recover their one remaining product line by doing something along those lines.
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Old 2006-11-14, 14:29   Link #768
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Damn my work... oh well, I'll just post a few points.

1. Moon Eclipse, as someone that's grown up around lots of people with severe emotional problems (my mom's on pills... she goes into outbursts when she tries to get off of the medication, and I have other family members that arguably worse), I can say from experience that just because a person is unstable and stressed doesn't mean that they're uptight and unreasonable 24/7. For Kaede to be sorry for her actions and forgiving of Asa's isn't unrealistic at all.

Also, Asa was blaming herself for something that she really can't be blamed for. Again, best friend or no, its unreasonable to expect someone to sit there and watch their friends for hidden emotional problems. Kaede seemed to be taking everything in stride until she snapped, so she probably figured that everything was okay between them. It would be kind of lame to get all down and apologetic when there's no clear wrong done and no one is getting defensive. More on this later...

2. Concerning the bridge scene, Asa was right to just listen to Kaede. Sometimes all you need when you're troubled is an ear that's willing to hear what you have to say, without interruption. Asa chose to hear Kaede out first, and she was right to do so.

Asa was crying when the scene ended. Its not like Mimori the heartless ver. 2.0... two tears for the obviously not-so-dear departed.

I stand by my position that then was not the right time to tell Kaede to give up on Rin and that Asa wasn't the person to do it. I would say that a third party, such as a parent, sibling, or close friend, would be the perfect one to point her in the right direction, but since all of Kaede's close on-screen friends were either too young to be knowledgable in that sort of thing, weren't the sensitive type, or were far from a third party, I'd say that that the responsability to tell Kaede that it was time to move on and find someone else fell on (if anyone) the one that shot her down. (and not just "I don't like you like that", but "I don't like seeing you hold yourself back for me; please let go of your attachment to me and start dating other people")

3. Armife:




Yes... casual conversation, complete with casual expressions, body language, and tone. Not a care in the world. Totally non-chalant. Asa was worried about Kaede. That's why she brought it up. There was nothing casual about that conversation.

And she didn't know that she needed to apologize before hand, because she didn't sit there and analyze Kaede like all of you apparently wanted her to. Yeah, she was ignorant, but again, I can't blame her for not sitting there and thoroughly analysing what was going through her friend's head.

And the inner questioning monologue wasn't necessary. Her conversation with Rin and the bridge scene that you guys keep shrugging off as unimportant, OOC, poorly done, etc. showed full good and well what was going through Asa's head, and it wasn't selfish.

Yeah, I'm sure that all of your friends would just calmly ask for an explanation if you suddenly went psycho and started screaming at them and slamming them against the wall. A strong disagreement, a visible built up, and a fight is one thing, but that kind of psycho display is the kind of confrontation that ends friendships, even strong ones.

Put youself in Asa's shoes for a second. (really, don't just take this as what happened in Shuffle, from the view of a tainted Asa supporter looking to shift you to his POV, put yourself there... you're not an outsider that's seen what your friend's going through and had a good chance to peek into his head, you're a guy with your own life- school, social, possibly a job- living in this world in this situation... just imagine that you're having a nice evening out with the one girl that truly makes you feel happy and at ease between all of the stress) You go with you girlfriend back to her house to visit your long time close friend that happens to have lived with her and also happened to really like her, almost to the point worship. The last time that you talked to him, he seemed to be okay with the way things were going, and you hadn't heard anything from your girlfriend that suggests that he's feeling down, so its safe to assume that you're still on good terms. (or, if you want to insist that Asa couldn't have talked to Kaede since the dating started, you thought that your friend was a stable and reasonable person and would understand and wouldn't take it personally, and you hadn't) You go there, expecting to have a nice relaxing time with your girlfriend, buddy, and what might as well be your girlfriend's adopted kid before you head home. (or not ) When you get there, your buddy greets you with what is essentially a polite "get out". Cranky. Eh, whatever, its unusual for him, so you're a bit taken back, but your friend's a reasonable guy, he'll get over it and make the best of the visit. Next thing you know, without threats or warning, he starts going crazy, rushes you and starts slamming you against the wall and screaming in your face at the top of his lungs about you need to die. The threats and demands that are ringing in your ears are not a joke. He really wants to injure you. The encounter puts you in the hospital.

Now can you honestly say that the first thing on your mind when you wake up is worrying about your friend's health? You're probably weirded out at your friend's behavior, maybe you don't trust him now that you know that he's unstable (which isn't unreasonable at all... he's obviously not the mild-mannered man that you thought he was underneath the veil, and you never know what might set him off), maybe you're hoping that he didn't turn on your girlfriend when he was finished with you (he is unpredictable, after all), and maybe, after thinking on it for a while, you may start to view yourself as the victim (everybody victimizes themselves to some degree, "after all that money and hard work, that bitch dumped me" "that asshole expelled me just for acting like I was shooting that snitch" or even something like "I had to sit in my grandma's place and listen to her whine about everything"... its easy to view yourself as the "good guy" and the one that hurt you as the "bad guy") and/or start to view your "friend" as some sad unstable psycho that can't take what life throws at them (anger isn't an unreasonble reaction either... after all, from a certain POV, the fact that your friend didn't even give you fair warning could be viewed as a serious show of disrespect). To be able to put your own feelings on the matter aside, to strip away your own point of view and look at things from your friend's point view in a way that makes you the betrayer (villainizing yourself isn't easy), and to even go and verbally admit that you should have read between lines and make an apology, despite the shame of admitting to others that you were wrong (strength of character by itself) and the risks involved with the meeting (and without the time to distance yourself from the issue and to be able to blame it on the "old you", no less), THAT is true strength of character.

I have more to say (a LOT more, I still haven't gotten to my points concerning pre-date Asa's mentality), but I've already spent too long typing. I need to sleep if I'm going to start getting ready to go to class in four hours.
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Old 2006-11-14, 15:19   Link #769
Skyfall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloodseeker View Post
Also, Asa was blaming herself for something that she really can't be blamed for. Again, best friend or no, its unreasonable to expect someone to sit there and watch their friends for hidden emotional problems. Kaede seemed to be taking everything in stride until she snapped, so she probably figured that everything was okay between them. It would be kind of lame to get all down and apologetic when there's no clear wrong done and no one is getting defensive. More on this later...
This part is partially true - perhaps Asa can not be blamed for not noticing the change in Kaede(assuming she has not seen her in a while). Rin is the one who takes the blame for this one. Kaede looked like she was about to break down any second... she looked nothing short of a walking zombie at that pont, which Rin managed to ignore. Even after Kaede asked him if she should suffer more. (dont ask me how he managed to miss this...aside from the fact that the script writer decided to remove his brain)

However - It was shown trough the show that Asa was pretty well avare of Kaede's feelings and ,possibly, that she might not take such news lightly. (At some pont she said something along the lines 'Kaede's weak heart can be cured only by Rin' ...or something like that(dont have the eps right now).

Furthermore - yes, she does not have all the insight of a bystander and all.... but then again you do not need 6th sense and observations from 3rd party to figure out how your best friend is going to react to a certain situation. (especially when you are well avare about your friends feelings concerning the matter)

Exactly how retared one must be to figure out that it is a good idea to drop in your friends house after a date with the person your fried has dedicated all his/her life to (with you knowing it) in order to spend some nice time together with the said person ? And after your friend snaps at you to ask "is it my fault?". That is not lack of 3rd party information about the situation, that is a lack of common sense.

And if my best friend would snap at me for suposedly no reason (tho the reason was so apearant(sp?) one must be brain dead not to notice it) i would certainly start to ponder about what caused the said outburst. Unless of course i actually dont give rats arse about the said friend so his problems (to what i appear to be the cause of) are to be ignored.

And it was Asa's stupidity that put her in the hospital, not Kaede's 'attack' (I won't use magic and will die in order not to make my mother cry).
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Old 2006-11-14, 15:37   Link #770
Vexx
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One problem with bloodseeker's descriptions is that most of that isn't actually what happened, it is a rationalization to make what was portrayed in the anime make sense to him (especially the in-Asa-shoes sequence). It also leaves out certain key previous events in the anime. The "wake up" sequence he describes requires (again) changing Asa's demonstrated previous behavior and ignoring her knowledge of Kaede's feelings for Rin -- and inserting how *he* might feel. However, I believe we are discussing Asa and Kaede here, not someone else in that situation.
He also is resorting to hyperbole to shore up his opinion about the bridge scene by mischaracterizing the dissenting views, minus points.
Also bloodseeker should please not assume he is the only one who has experienced people with severe emotional problems or that such anecdotal experience has much bearing on character analysis.

Kaede's apologies to Asa are indeed somewhat realistic ... but especially when we take into account the complete destruction of what is left of Kaede's self-esteem at this point. People with crushed self-esteem are often apologizing, even when they aren't at fault.

Asa didn't have to be watching for hidden emotional problems when she already knew what Kaede's feelings for Rin were. Asa was a flirt but she knew the line and respected Kaede's feelings so we *should* expect Asa to be concerned about them as soon as Rin made his play for her. That wasn't portrayed -- this is a basic problem with some erogee adaptions: once a path is chosen, the impact on other characters is not explored. For an anime this doesn't work, the writers *have* to come up with the effects of choices in order for the anime to retain a shred of realism. That's why many of them decide to handle girls sequentially and completely finish one before starting the next: its easy. Choosing Asa meant that the Kaede thread either had to be dealt with early (perhaps by Asa insisting Rin clear things up with Kaede *before* proceeding) or that Asa had to show significant concern for Kaede's feelings after the explosion to stay true to her character as defined. Neither happened and defending what was portrayed just seems to be a serious disservice to Asa's character.
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Old 2006-11-14, 15:41   Link #771
Deathkillz
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the fact that asa knows that kaede loves rin puts her in the wrong...only if it was actually confirmed to her that rin was kaede's property ie they are indeed 100% going out with each other...

however this was not true...the start only implied that kaede has a good chance to go out with rin but it has not happened yet...
if asa really did like rin to start off with this unconfirmation of rin's feelings could have appeared to asa as her "chance" and maybe she chould have a shot at going out with rin...

to be honest i really dont think that asa would snatch rin away from kaede if it was shown that she knows that they are truly going out with each other...but having not seeing that asa would have been thinking "should she or should she not" scenarios...its really hard to hold back knowing if things arent going to progress anyway...if kaede and rin are never going to get together then why should asa back down on the chance?

i dont think that asa knows how much kaede actually depend on rin...to asa, kaede only seems like any other normal girl in love only more intermate as kaede is taking care of rin...
but to actually go freak out mode on asa she completely did not see that comming...i dont think anyone besides rin has seen her psyco mode...its goddam shameful for rin not to pick up the cracks that he has seen on kaede when she was near killing mode so that is why rin should be the one to get bitch slapped not asa...

also if rin didn dragg out the whole dam ordeal for so long it might not have ended as it did...he was having fun doing a playboy thing with all the other girls then abandoning them after he is done having fun is godamm disgraceful...if he liked asa from the start why the hell did he play? if only he had shut everyone else's hopes up and gone out with asa in the first place then it wouldnt have allowed time for relationships with the other charaters to develope and ultimatly get distroyed...

now im off to go kill rin T_T
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Old 2006-11-14, 15:51   Link #772
npal
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Problem is, Asa should have known that Kaede would be having problems with Rin's relationship with her. She knew Kaede from cooking club, and most of the magnitute of Kaede's feelings towards Rin. Being in her place and expect your friend to be considerate is fooling yourself. We can say Rin was oblivious when he invited Asa home after their date, but Asa had all the facts pretty straight for years to at least guard herself against a possible outburst, which of course, she didn't, apparently because she rationalized the whole deal as you do: "no real problem there, I have every right, Kaede should be fine, etc". Well, guess not. Although one can't expect that extreme a reaction, Asa should have taken various steps to protect both herself and Kaede. She didn't and she got the result she worked for.

Now, if this the case, it's clear Asa doesn't need to question anything (as she didn't), she knows very well what happened and who's responsible for it, so no questions there. You don't ask something when you know the answer all too well. And that can sufficiently explain her not asking about Kaede while hospitalized. She made a gamble, and got the worst possible results. Asa was far from oblivious regarding Kaede, unless she tried to fool herself into thinking that everything will turn out ok, which can happen, some people just want to believe they are doing the right thing and everything will turn ok... right? And if I take this explanation, all of Asa's behavior up to Kaede's outburst was at least partly pre-meditated. Claiming Asa couldn't have had any idea about what she might encounter means that Asa must be extremely stupid and naive, which she clearly is not, as demonstrated in earlier episodes.

Edited (thought it didn't make much sense ) Moving on, victimizing yourself could work, but if the explanation above still has effect, Asa knows well what went wrong, and that she is indeed responsible for what took place in Kaede's house. There's every reason to consider yourself the villain in the situation (as shown above), if you're not selfish enough to deny the obvious and attempt to play the victim.

Asking Rin about Kaede is a common way most of us try to find support for things that we feel we have done wrong but we need someone to alleviate some of the guilt by giving us an answer good enough to ease our conscience. It happens many times. Although we know we're wrong, we still ask what's the matter, and play dumb in the process. This attitude usually accompanies our sense of never being wrong, the common selfish notion. We know we did something wrong but we can't accept it and we seek the clues that will strengthen our supposed right. Instead of staying with that notion, Asa, under the pressure of Rin's bad mood and the general worrying about Kaede (as portrayed by Sia, Nerine, etc) as well as her own sense of guilt, is forced to acknowledge that hiding behind her finger will not solve the problem and the situation can't go on like this. Of course, one can speculate that Asa expressed genuine interest about Kaede's condition in the wake of her awareness of guilt when she was hospitalized and she took it on herself to make things right. There is a hole in this scenario which I'll discuss later. Someone might say that this contradicts the previously stated "I know what's wrong so I don't ask". Yes, but when a situation you thought would turn some way (Kaede somehow calming down) turned otherwise (Kaede is still absent), along with your already established guilt rising because of the prolonged situation of which you already know you're guilty of invoking, can make you reassess where you stand.

That leaves us with 2 Asa versions. The common selfish person, the occasional villain, who knows what he did wrong, will not back off from fundamental issues, but will try to return things to as normal as possible if possible, without sacrificing what he has attained. If that cannot be achieved, then he will just leave things be as they are and take measures to protect his gain.
The other Asa is the fallen, a person who had shown herself to be wise and considerate in the past, did an error, human as it may or may not have been, knows about it, and seeks to amend it by any and all means possible, exaggerating out of a deep sense of guilt and regret. Now, someone who wants to atone so badly would have done more things than "the bridge scene", which I've stated in some of my previous post. Asa is clearly not the second person, which unfortunately leaves us with either the common selfish person, or great character inconsistency. Problem is that all of Asa's actions can be explained using the common selfish character thread of explanation, which makes Asa appear really bad.

To summarize, the basic flaw of the argument was that Asa could comprehend what might transpire in Kaede's house, which is clearly not the case, as Asa-Kaede relationship was established early in the series, making it clear that Asa was fully aware of Kaede's feelings about Rin. Everything else follows from this basic statement. And in the end, there are only 2 explanations left. Either the writers messed up and wanted to say something else about Asa and the whole situation, or everything was deliberate and Asa degraded into a common selfish person from the good natured, wise guide she were in the beginning of the series. Although someone might question even that, using the famous head-panties scene and claim that many actions thereafter were pre-meditated in an attempt for Asa to gain the upper hand (encounters with Rin on various occasions -> strengthening her position, openly questioning all the girls' obvious good intentions regarding Primula's case, invoking Kaede's case, etc etc). Of course that would make Asa appear even more of a lowly individual than the previous explanation would suggest.

And all this means that the best way to save Asa's lofty place in heaven is to actually ACCEPT that the writers plainly screwed up really bad.

Damn, took me too long to write and some of my points were already made
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Last edited by npal; 2006-11-14 at 16:01.
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Old 2006-11-14, 15:54   Link #773
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I suppose you could ascribe to Rin the "tragic Greek Protagonist" label. His flaws lead to his downfall and ruining of people's lives around him despite his best intentions. Unfortunately, they even screw that up in the last 15 minutes with that damned lame "reset" where I suppose we now have all these girls who smile and eat lunch together while forever circling the "happy couple" for a chance to snatch the meat away. How dysfunctional is that?
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Old 2006-11-14, 16:01   Link #774
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Great post npal, especially the last part. I would hand you a cookie but i have to spread some arround first >.<
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Old 2006-11-14, 16:02   Link #775
Deathkillz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I suppose you could ascribe to Rin the "tragic Greek Protagonist" label. His flaws lead to his downfall and ruining of people's lives around him despite his best intentions. Unfortunately, they even screw that up in the last 15 minutes with that damned lame "reset" where I suppose we now have all these girls who smile and eat lunch together while forever circling the "happy couple" for a chance to snatch the meat away. How dysfunctional is that?
/agree
the writers sux at concluding the story is what i have to comment on...more changes to get heartbroken again? screw you!

wow...lets all step back and take a look how much everyone has written...print all the pages out concerning the discussion and you will get a nifty think pocket sized book to read

gg...nice topic to debate on
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Old 2006-11-14, 17:00   Link #776
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You don't just get up one day and decide that you're stable when you've had repreased issues you don't deal with for long. Chronic and acute depression, sucidial and homicial tendancies don't noramlly just up and go away. From personal experience as well, people don't just up and forgive the people they blame for their entire world collapsing and the thing that caused their entire reason for living to be snatched away from them. It's not like Kaede had that much time to calm down either because even after her outburst the next thing she gets is a big "I'm leaving" from Rin at the point where she feels she's picked herself up enough to deal. This just take what little of her house of cards and basically puts a match to them. People are not reasonable by any means when dealing with such deep rooted issues alone, without support or guidance. Most times when depressed people at left to fester on their own their depression grows and the dwelling that occurs is not benificial but detrimental.

Cardinal rules of friendship for me an all my friends: You don't hone in on another's love interest.

Maybe it's just a freak occurence, but that's how it goes for everyone I've talked to within the group I know.

Like I said before Asa cried for maybe 30 seconds which in my mind does not consistute anything of significant value or display. She was also crying in response to Kaede's crying which could also just be a mask of her true feelings, getting caught up in the moment type thing. That too is not an entirely unreasonable possilibilty.

Casual. She was watching Rin eat the meal she had made for him. Then she randomly comes up with the topic of Kaede and starts to prod. It's only then that she realizes what's going on, once she learned stuff from Rin and begins to dwell on it. Other than that, Kaede is no more than just a mere casual though that pops in and out of her mind

Putting myself in Asa's shoes I would have never gone out with Rin to begin with, but even if I had I would have been concerned with Kaede's feeling. Afterall I care a lot about Kaede because she's my best friend. I know how much Rin means to her, I know that she absolutely loves him and her whole life centers around him. THe entire reason why I met either one of them is because she went to my cooking club to learn to cook for him. I've been supporting her all this time and keeping tabs on the development of their relationship as it progress, commenting on possible competition that Kaede might have for Rin's affection, shaking her when she feel unconscious at the introduction of the 2 new girls.

I can honestly say the first thing I would do if I woke up was to make sure everyone I supposedly cared about was okay, were I in Asa's position. She didn't even really mention Kaede once she woke up, she just keep on basking in Rin's attention, even after her whole attack was caused by the trama of experiencing Kaede losing her mind. Yes, were I in the hospital I'd be thinking about what put me there and how it happened, and in Asa's case.... Was I to blame?

My problem is Asa never really showed the anguish that goes hand in hand with seeing how truely dispiciable one's self is. This leads me to believe she never really did any soul searching to begin with and was only dealing with the superficial guilt from the situation and if that's all she is apologizing for? The superficial? Then the apology does not deal with major issues and is therefore hollow in my mind.

But honestly Npal is right in the end I'm led to interprete Asa as the villan. I see Asa as no true friend to anyone in the series.

Last edited by Moon Eclipse; 2006-11-14 at 17:07. Reason: adding to Npal's comment
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Old 2006-11-14, 17:26   Link #777
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Originally Posted by Moon Eclipse View Post
Afterall I care a lot about Kaede because she's my best friend.
I don't care about 99.99999% of this argument (though it is amusing to see that the same people keep saying the same things), but this isn't really supported anywhere in the series. Asa's best friend is Kareha, not Kaede. They even go out of their way to mention in one of the early episodes (whichever involves Rin's first visit to Asa's house) that Asa doesn't really hang out with either of them anymore (and hasn't since she came to high school) except for (obviously) at club activities which they imply in the first episode that Kaede doesn't attend particularly regularly. I wouldn't really care about this either way, except people keep forgetting about poor Kareha-chan (my favorite, if you couldn't tell).

"My my my!"

EDIT: I should also clarify that I'm only really talking about the particular statement that they're best friends - which I see pop up a lot - and not ancillary arguments, which I could care less about.
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Old 2006-11-14, 17:34   Link #778
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Your assumption that they're not even particularly great friends would only further my belief in Asa's villany. Since she would they not only be hagging out with someone she's not particularly close friend with flirt with a boy she knows the other girl likes. She's also using their psuedo friendship as way to worm her way into the guy's life and take him for her own
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Old 2006-11-14, 18:06   Link #779
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Originally Posted by Moon Eclipse View Post
Your assumption that they're not even particularly great friends would only further my belief in Asa's villany. Since she would they not only be hagging out with someone she's not particularly close friend with flirt with a boy she knows the other girl likes. She's also using their psuedo friendship as way to worm her way into the guy's life and take him for her own
First, of all, let me correct a couple of statements. I made no assumption about their friendship whatsoever. I disputed YOUR assumption that they are best friends (which the series shows they are not).
I actually don't care about Asa's villainy one way or the other - if this makes her worse for you, well, I'm happy I confirmed for you that she's just as bad as you thought she was. (Note: I'm including a smiley here because I can't figure out a way to type this sentence that doesn't make it sound sarcastic, and I am seriously not trying to be sarcastic)
As I said, I'm not really disputing 99.999999% of your argument - I'm just pointing out that they're not really best friends. And I guess I'm also disputing the widely held perception that the three of them have been hanging out together after school and what-not for a long time, but to me that seems like almost like a corollary position to the other.
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Old 2006-11-14, 18:12   Link #780
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Skyfall and Vexx, you have made some very good posts with very strong arguments, I almost agree 100% to most of them. Moon Eclipse, npal and rei made MANY great points I agree with too, but it's an extra relief to hear arguments supporting your own from people outside the KKK, especially when you are accused of being biased. Thanks for the posts.
I'd follow up on some of them and copy some of the points to reply Bloodseeker, but then I'd feel pathetic by adding something inferior onto and on top some already good arguments that are superiorly worded and composed. ^^;;
Quote:
Originally Posted by rave_master16 View Post
come to think of it.....all of you just copy paste copy paste...same thing all over again... it's the same debate....nobody wins or loss....its just a waste of time...
Actually it's only me who's doing that.
Don't say that about the others, it's just me
Back in the other now closed thread, I did the same copy/paste against Rin-sama because he kept going in circles, and I couldn't be bothered to make a new post every time when I could just copy/paste my posts for the same effect(I don't think he actually noticed )
Only now I did it in this thread because those points are still valid and usable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rooboy666
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moon Eclipse
Afterall I care a lot about Kaede because she's my best friend.
I don't care about 99.99999% of this argument (though it is amusing to see that the same people keep saying the same things), but this isn't really supported anywhere in the series.
Maybe best friend is stretching it. I agree to that.
But for the sake of our arguments, let's maintain that they are at least good friends.
This is the only thing I remember from the top of my head, but Kaede said so herself: ep20, 2m40s. Kaede to Primula: I hurt someone dear to me again. Even though I swore I'd never do it...
She was talking about Asa obviously, and there must he some truth to this if it comes directly from Kaede I think
Also the new, Really?Really! game supports this, since it has the other main characters Mayumi, Nadeshiko, Sakura, Primula and Asa, included for the very prupose that they are good friends with Kaede who hold many keys to her past and memories.

It's safe to asume they are very good friends.^^;;

(This was only pointed out for the sake of our arguments by the way, in case someone else wants to argue whether they are friends)

Last edited by Arimfe; 2006-11-14 at 18:56.
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