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Old 2011-08-20, 08:20   Link #961
TheFluff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zrdb View Post
10 bit h264 encoding effectively obsoletes my Popcorn Hour A210-I refuse to use an htpc-what the fuck am I supposed to do?
suffer

we told you to get a htpc five years ago and now you get to suffer because you made the wrong decision

The problem with small plastic toys like the popcorn hour is (and has always been) that they support the hot new thing when they're released, but when the next hot new thing comes out two years later you are screwed and get to either join the complaining-about-mkv crowd in a corner or buy a new toy.

Seriously people, stop falling into this trap. Even with the rampant software bloat everywhere, a decent computer will last you far longer than any small plastic toy. It's also far easier to upgrade parts of it, should it become necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
I think it should be obvious to anyone that there will never be hardware devices that play 10bit h264 with the exceptions of essentially HTPCs that are really running ffdshow.

I.e. no one is going to produce a chip that decodes 10bit. There's zero market for it.

I suppose it's possible that the PS3/Xbox could play them, since they use software decoding, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

The only reason h.264 decoding is so ubiquitous is because of the blu-ray and i-products standards, and non of those play or are compatible with 10bit.
panasonic (that is, an Electronics Manufacturer, size Large) is pushing 12-bit encoding, fyi
(guess why? to create a demand for new bluray players, of course. everyone already owns a normal player, now it's time to get people to buy new ones.)



also, petition to have this thread renamed The Complaints Box
after all, it is almost exclusively used for complaining about whatever new technology that people started using this quarter
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read

Last edited by TheFluff; 2011-08-20 at 08:39.
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Old 2011-08-20, 08:53   Link #962
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
panasonic (that is, an Electronics Manufacturer, size Large) is pushing 12-bit encoding, fyi
(guess why? to create a demand for new bluray players, of course. everyone already owns a normal player, now it's time to get people to buy new ones.)
But... I don't get it.

At blu-ray bitrates, would 12 bit/10bit whatever do any good at all visually on 8-bit displays?

You could fit 2-3times as much on one disc, sure, but what's the point? It's not like anyone crams that much content on a disc anyway (Tv shows, perhaps? Maybe for 3D movies? But there the visual quality is hurt by the display tech...)

I'd be curious to read a source on panasonic pushing 12 bit. Maybe for the next generation format in 5-6 years, but I don't see it in less than 5 in any consumer level equipment.

I could see a Digital Cinema 2000K style format with 12 bit and higher bitrates than Blu-ray being the level of a next gen format, but not as a simple extension to blu-ray.
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Old 2011-08-20, 09:31   Link #963
TheFluff
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Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
But... I don't get it.

At blu-ray bitrates, would 12 bit/10bit whatever do any good at all visually on 8-bit displays?

You could fit 2-3times as much on one disc, sure, but what's the point? It's not like anyone crams that much content on a disc anyway (Tv shows, perhaps? Maybe for 3D movies? But there the visual quality is hurt by the display tech...)

I'd be curious to read a source on panasonic pushing 12 bit. Maybe for the next generation format in 5-6 years, but I don't see it in less than 5 in any consumer level equipment.

I could see a Digital Cinema 2000K style format with 12 bit and higher bitrates than Blu-ray being the level of a next gen format, but not as a simple extension to blu-ray.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVC-Intra
http://www.panasonic-broadcast.com/c...T_Broshure.pdf

AFAIK they have a finger in the CoreAVC 3.0 pie; it will support 12-bit because of their formats.

Bigger numbers sell more devices.
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read
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Old 2011-08-20, 09:39   Link #964
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVC-Intra
http://www.panasonic-broadcast.com/c...T_Broshure.pdf

AFAIK they have a finger in the CoreAVC 3.0 pie; it will support 12-bit because of their formats.

Bigger numbers sell more devices.
Those are professional camcorder and non-linear editing formats.
They have nothing to do with consumer discs or playback. The 12-bit format there is designed as a digital alternative to HDCAM-SR.

I see no evidence of any push to update a consumer standard here. Core AVC 3.0 is being developed as an alternative to Mainconcept for software h.264 decoders that are built into pro-level video editing software. It's not about storage or playback for consumers.

To quote the wiki article: "AVC-Intra is intended to serve needs of video professionals who have to store HD digital video on digital storage media for editing and archiving purposes."

Who wrote that brocher you linked:

"Professional & Broadcast IT Systems Business Unit
Panasonic AVC System Europe Company
a Division of Panasonic Marketing Europe GmbH
Hagenauer Strasse 43
65203 Wiesbaden
Germany
http://panasonic-broadcast.com"

By your logic, we should have had 10 bit hardware players long ago since AVC-Intra (10 bit) was put out in 2007 (along with panasonic's camcoders that recorded to it). HDCAM-SR has been 10-bit for a almost a decade. Just because the tech exists at the professional level does not mean it bleeds into the consumer market in the short term. It usually takes 5-10 years.
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Old 2011-08-20, 11:12   Link #965
zrdb
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suffer

we told you to get a htpc five years ago and now you get to suffer because you made the wrong decision

The problem with small plastic toys like the popcorn hour is (and has always been) that they support the hot new thing when they're released, but when the next hot new thing comes out two years later you are screwed and get to either join the complaining-about-mkv crowd in a corner or buy a new toy.

Seriously people, stop falling into this trap. Even with the rampant software bloat everywhere, a decent computer will last you far longer than any small plastic toy. It's also far easier to upgrade parts of it, should it become necessary.

Why do I have to suffer because fansubbers only think about the next "best thing" to come along? HTPCs are a fucking pain in the ass to maintain-that's why I (and a hell of a lot of other people) have media players. Media players are simple to use, use about 10% of the power that an htpc uses and you don't have to screw around with codecs and pita software players. So I say fuck 10 bit encoding-for the few advantages it offers it causes a shit more problems with incompatibilities.
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Old 2011-08-20, 14:14   Link #966
TheFluff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zrdb View Post
Why do I have to suffer because fansubbers only think about the next "best thing" to come along?
because if we never changed anything we'd never have any improvements

Quote:
Originally Posted by zrdb View Post
HTPCs are a fucking pain in the ass to maintain-that's why I (and a hell of a lot of other people) have media players. Media players are simple to use, use about 10% of the power that an htpc uses and you don't have to screw around with codecs and pita software players. So I say fuck 10 bit encoding-for the few advantages it offers it causes a shit more problems with incompatibilities.
whoa, you have to INSTALL SOFTWARE on your htpc, what a pain in the ass!
I also don't understand the argument about power consumption. How many hours can you possibly watch movies each day?

Still, you don't need to download 10-bit releases if you don't want to. There is no shortage of re-encoding groups.
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read
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Old 2011-08-20, 14:23   Link #967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zrdb View Post

Why do I have to suffer because fansubbers only think about the next "best thing" to come along? HTPCs are a fucking pain in the ass to maintain-that's why I (and a hell of a lot of other people) have media players. Media players are simple to use, use about 10% of the power that an htpc uses and you don't have to screw around with codecs and pita software players. So I say fuck 10 bit encoding-for the few advantages it offers it causes a shit more problems with incompatibilities.
wtf are you smoking?
by
Quote:
10 bit h264 encoding effectively obsoletes my Popcorn Hour A210-I refuse to use an htpc-what the fuck am I supposed to do?
it's obvious that you are fucking clueless-helpless.

Bitching about something means that one will feel bad if that thing does not happen.
Also, best and next means progress, you are retarded if you blame people for following the progress.



As for 10 bits standalone decoders, these funny guys seems to be serious about it: http://www.ntt-electronics.com/en/pr...oder-fpga.html
Edit: However, they target the broadcating industry
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Old 2011-08-20, 17:28   Link #968
Kazu-kun
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Originally Posted by gorgonite View Post
As for 10 bits standalone decoders, these funny guys seems to be serious about it: http://www.ntt-electronics.com/en/pr...oder-fpga.html
Edit: However, they target the broadcating industry
I really don't understand why we need to use the same tech used on professional tv productions and film to encode pirated anime. Do we really need our pirated anime to look better than it already does? And I don't think file size is that much of a problem IMO.
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Old 2011-08-20, 18:46   Link #969
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gorgonite View Post
wtf are you smoking?
by

it's obvious that you are fucking clueless-helpless.

Bitching about something means that one will feel bad if that thing does not happen.
Also, best and next means progress, you are retarded if you blame people for following the progress.



As for 10 bits standalone decoders, these funny guys seems to be serious about it: http://www.ntt-electronics.com/en/pr...oder-fpga.html
Edit: However, they target the broadcating industry
I'd have to throw the question back at you-what the fuck are you smoking? I'm not clueless-but I sure think you are. I'm not against progress if there's a real benefit from it-but the advantages of 10 vs. 8 bit encoding are minimal at best-in other words-if it isn't broken-don't fucking fix it. You can have your goddamn pita htpc-I-and a whole shit load of other people will take our media players and enjoy them. If you want to get up on your gold plated pedestal and preach about how much better 10 bit encoding is-I don't shitting want to hear about it.
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Old 2011-08-21, 02:48   Link #970
Mentar
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Originally Posted by zrdb View Post
I'd have to throw the question back at you-what the fuck are you smoking? I'm not clueless-but I sure think you are. I'm not against progress if there's a real benefit from it-but the advantages of 10 vs. 8 bit encoding are minimal at best-in other words-if it isn't broken-don't fucking fix it. You can have your goddamn pita htpc-I-and a whole shit load of other people will take our media players and enjoy them. If you want to get up on your gold plated pedestal and preach about how much better 10 bit encoding is-I don't shitting want to hear about it.
But you think we encoders wanna hear the whining of a n00b who obviously is too lazy or stupid to simply install CCCP and be done with it?

10bit pretty much solves one of the remaining major problems in anime encoding: Banding. In the past, dealing with this forced encoders to either dither the source strongly and then apply way too much bandwidth (for a result which still was unsatisfactory), or to just leave it looking awful. With 10bit, you can now either drop down on bitrate massively (100-150 meg for a good-looking encode instead of 300), or you can have a near-perfect representation at the old bitrates. That's a good thing.

There are simple playback solutions for all major operating systems which you just have to install. And if you have a standalone, there's enough converters which you can use. But telling encoders "stop using advanced tech because I'm too lazy to switch" is a losing proposition, I can tell you that.
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Old 2011-08-21, 03:31   Link #971
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
10bit pretty much solves one of the remaining major problems in anime encoding: Banding. In the past, dealing with this forced encoders to either dither the source strongly and then apply way too much bandwidth (for a result which still was unsatisfactory), or to just leave it looking awful. With 10bit, you can now either drop down on bitrate massively (100-150 meg for a good-looking encode instead of 300), or you can have a near-perfect representation at the old bitrates.
Why do you want pirated anime to be a near-perfect representation anyway? As long as it looks ok it's just fine, isn't it? In fact I'm pretty sure most viewers can't even tell the difference anyway. Besides, if someone really wants a perfect representation, they can always buy the dvds/bds, right?
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Old 2011-08-21, 05:23   Link #972
Mentar
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Why do you want pirated anime to be a near-perfect representation anyway? As long as it looks ok it's just fine, isn't it? In fact I'm pretty sure most viewers can't even tell the difference anyway. Besides, if someone really wants a perfect representation, they can always buy the dvds/bds, right?
Nowadays, qualified encodes can usually achieve a quality above DVDs/BDs, particularly grain removal, but also debanding and other stuff. Also, they tend to have better subtitles and often enough good typesetting. The originals can't compete with that. Finally, a much smaller size in a much more convenient format. I wanna watch what I want to watch just like that, and not turn into some disk jockey. So, at least for me, I'd like to go for the best possible version.

So, I tend to put my Blurays into the drive pretty much exactly once: To rip them to disk. And with the outlandish prices the industry charges them, I seriously don't care that many of the series on my NAS are evilly "pirated". I spend more than enough on the industry.
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Old 2011-08-21, 08:27   Link #973
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I really don't understand
That make a sense. In fact, you are not replying to what you quoted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
why we need to use the same tech used on professional tv productions and film to encode pirated anime. Do we really need our pirated anime to look better than it already does? And I don't think file size is that much of a problem IMO.
I didn't say that "we" need to use the same tech used on professional tv productions and film nor did I say that "we" need our pirated anime to look "better". But:
- This is not "the same tech used on professional tv productions and film" and this is a good thing, since it's mostly shitty
- Using 10bits encoding does not imply by ANY means that "we" NEED the same tech used on professional tv productions and film, however, it can imply that the one who used it WANTs or aims for improvements.
- I don't see anything wrong with aiming for the evil-pirated anime improvement ("better than it already does").

Fansub encoders do not exist to primary satisfy your NEEDs, they are there to do whatever they WANT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Why do you want pirated anime to be a near-perfect representation anyway? As long as it looks ok it's just fine, isn't it? In fact I'm pretty sure most viewers can't even tell the difference anyway. Besides, if someone really wants a perfect representation, they can always buy the dvds/bds, right?

Now you are using "you want"...
I want that because I'm able to perform it. Is it a smart question to ask someone why he wants to increase his performance?
You can grap any re-encoding release if you are satisyed with "just fine".


Quote:
Originally Posted by zrdb View Post
I'd have to throw the question back at you-what the fuck are you smoking? I'm not clueless-but I sure think you are. I'm not against progress if there's a real benefit from it-but the advantages of 10 vs. 8 bit encoding are minimal at best-in other words-if it isn't broken-don't fucking fix it. You can have your goddamn pita htpc-I-and a whole shit load of other people will take our media players and enjoy them. If you want to get up on your gold plated pedestal and preach about how much better 10 bit encoding is-I don't shitting want to hear about it.
Noboby is begging you for using htpc or watching 10bits encodes. You were cluelessly wandering and asked a question, you got the answer. STFU already, nobody care about you or your whole shit load of other people that are dumb enough to not being able to set an htpc up.
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Old 2011-08-21, 22:29   Link #974
Zero1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zrdb View Post
10 bit h264 encoding effectively obsoletes my Popcorn Hour A210-I refuse to use an htpc-what the fuck am I supposed to do?
A) Watch it on your computer
B) Reconsider your position on a HTPC
C) Sell your device while you still can
D) Learn how to/pick up a tool to re-encode stuff
E) Download from one of the many re-encoding groups


Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
I think it should be obvious to anyone that there will never be hardware devices that play 10bit h264 with the exceptions of essentially HTPCs that are really running ffdshow.

I.e. no one is going to produce a chip that decodes 10bit. There's zero market for it.

I suppose it's possible that the PS3/Xbox could play them, since they use software decoding, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

The only reason h.264 decoding is so ubiquitous is because of the blu-ray and i-products standards, and non of those play or are compatible with 10bit.
I wouldn't write it off so soon. From what I have seen, piracy drives the market. ISPs offer faster connections with larger bandwidth caps and often quote how fast their service is in terms of how many minutes it takes to download a HD movie, or how many tens of thousands of tracks you are allowed to download each month. Same with HDDs. How many people would legitimately require 3TB HDDs if they didn't download music or video? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't (if you include anime in that).

As soon as people start encoding using 10-bit, these hardware producers will have no choice but to support 10-bit if they want to keep shifting hardware. It took long enough, but look at how devices now have decent MKV support and the multitude of audio and video formats that it's possible to find in it.

There may well be zero market for it right now as you say, but I believe that market will grow, even if it is slowly in comparison to when H.264 initially started to gain widespread usage.


I'm kind of surprised and dissapointed that Bluray didn't already support 10 bit. Seems like a glaring omission considering the quality improvement if you ask me.

However, the problem is that the quality of Bluray is already very good (excellent in most cases) so pushing an upgraded version of bluray might be like trying to get people to buy SACD. The enthusiasts and people with good equipment can tell the difference, but the average man on the street will be ignorant to the benefits. I would think in order to sucker people into buying a new player, you need a "bigger" feature than 10 bit, but I'm not sure what that could be. You could add more audio channels, but most people don't even have 7.1 yet (or want it; so many speakers). Maybe higher resolutions? That's a potential ploy and it would also serve as a good chance to shift new panels.

I don't know. Introducing 10-bit Bluray seems like it might be a similar kind of challenge as with SACD. The gap between VHS and DVD was large, the gap between DVD and Bluray was large, but could you say the gap between 8-bit and 10-bit Bluray is as large?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
But... I don't get it.

At blu-ray bitrates, would 12 bit/10bit whatever do any good at all visually on 8-bit displays?

You could fit 2-3times as much on one disc, sure, but what's the point? It's not like anyone crams that much content on a disc anyway (Tv shows, perhaps? Maybe for 3D movies? But there the visual quality is hurt by the display tech...)

I'd be curious to read a source on panasonic pushing 12 bit. Maybe for the next generation format in 5-6 years, but I don't see it in less than 5 in any consumer level equipment.

I could see a Digital Cinema 2000K style format with 12 bit and higher bitrates than Blu-ray being the level of a next gen format, but not as a simple extension to blu-ray.
I would hazard a guess as to say yes (but mostly depends on source). I noticed banding in the [C] ED, which I think a) would not have been present if Bluray was >8-bit and b) could probably be fixed with gradfun and encoded with x264 10-bit to look nice.
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Old 2011-08-21, 22:44   Link #975
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Originally Posted by Zero1 View Post
I would hazard a guess as to say yes (but mostly depends on source). I noticed banding in the [C] ED, which I think a) would not have been present if Bluray was >8-bit and b) could probably be fixed with gradfun and encoded with x264 10-bit to look nice.
I think you have a point, but only really for anime.
Also, the C banding was present on the master tapes (I happen to know ).

Anime (and CG animation in general) is the only place where blu-ray banding becomes a visible issue, IMO.
I'm not sure that's enough of a reason.

Here's a serious question: Is there any merit in the argument that 8 bit color depth is easier to program for both in hardware and software because it's 2^3?
Is the move to 10-12 a fairly non-trivial one from a hardware design perspective because of that? (hence, blu-ray only being 8 bit, same as DVD).
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Old 2011-08-22, 01:41   Link #976
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For actual physical hardware (e.g. ASIC decoders), 10-bit is exactly 2 more bits, thus exactly 25% more wires for pixel processing and 12.5% more for iDCT stuff.

For a DSP or something, it's basically going from 8->16, so it's more like the ~40% you see on a PC.
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Old 2011-08-22, 03:06   Link #977
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Originally Posted by Dark Shikari View Post
For actual physical hardware (e.g. ASIC decoders), 10-bit is exactly 2 more bits, thus exactly 25% more wires for pixel processing and 12.5% more for iDCT stuff.

For a DSP or something, it's basically going from 8->16, so it's more like the ~40% you see on a PC.
And what does DS think the prospects of seeing a cheap, consumer targeted 10-bit capable decoder chip are in the new future?
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Old 2011-08-22, 07:11   Link #978
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Why do you want pirated anime to be a near-perfect representation anyway? As long as it looks ok it's just fine, isn't it? In fact I'm pretty sure most viewers can't even tell the difference anyway. Besides, if someone really wants a perfect representation, they can always buy the dvds/bds, right?
Why we want it to look near perfect? Because we CAN make it look near-perfect. If one ca achieve a greal level of quality, why not do it? Because lazy bums don't want to upgrade? Too bad.

You fail (in general, but that's beside the point) to understand that the people who REALLY want the best possible quality, are the encoders themselves. Yes, we, the people who encode stuff, want to create the best possible version. Not for you, not for the masses, but for ourselves. Do you think most people who downloaded Needless from me cared that the fonts for the signs were's the same for all episodes? Or that I forgot to label the chapters properly in episode 4? No, they didn't. But I did, so I released a v2. And that's not even for something really wrong. Most encoders hate banding. 10bit reduces banding by a LOT, so most encoders love 10bit. Do you get it now?
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Old 2011-08-22, 08:30   Link #979
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Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
prospects of seeing a cheap, consumer targeted 10-bit capable decoder chip are in the new future?
A realistic guess would be sometime in 2013 at the very soonest (which just so happens to be after 12/21/2012 in the new future ), if by chance something gets announced at one of the big trade shows (NAB, CES, Computex, IFA) in 2012. Same deal for GPUs, CPUs, and APUs, since all next-gen chips destined for 2011 to mid-2012 have finalized designs by this point. Though if Fansubs move to HEVC (aka H.265) in 2014+, history will just repeat itself. But who knows, maybe Dark Shikari will meet his goal of making x264 better than HEVC (initial encoders) by the time its finalized, and everybody will stick with x264 for a few more years.
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Old 2011-08-22, 09:01   Link #980
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Originally Posted by cyberbeing View Post
A realistic guess would be sometime in 2013 at the very soonest (which just so happens to be after 12/21/2012 in the new future ), if by chance something gets announced at one of the big trade shows (NAB, CES, Computex, IFA) in 2012. Same deal for GPUs, CPUs, and APUs, since all next-gen chips destined for 2011 to mid-2012 have finalized designs by this point. Though if Fansubs move to HEVC (aka H.265) in 2014+, history will just repeat itself. But who knows, maybe Dark Shikari will meet his goal of making x264 better than HEVC (initial encoders) by the time its finalized, and everybody will stick with x264 for a few more years.
Taking a look at what HEVC includes, it's going to take a heck of a lot of work to utilize those new features to their fullest. Adaptive/temporal motion vectors, internal bitlevel increase (I'm presuming that means going up to 12 bits internally even if the encode is only 8-10), etc...
I wouldn't be surprised at all if the best x264 encoders are better than the first generation HEVC encoders for quite a while (unless it's possible to simply tack on extra features to x264 to make it x265).
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