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Old 2006-06-26, 11:04   Link #1
DaFool
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No men needed; All-female society in 5000 generations through parthogenesis

The feminisation of society has been going on way before the suffrage movement. Dr. Kyoan from 18th century Japan noticed that more and more men started adopting a 'female pulse' which meant that remedies designed for female patients--not male patients--were more effective for them. They envision a time in the near future where the genders would merge into some androgynous form, as the paintings in that time period suggested. (Bishounens, anyone?)

Apparently the Y-chromosome has been degenerating from the thousands of genes (like the current X-chromosome) to about a hundred today. This may explain the decreasing men's fertility and verility. The Y-chromosome cannot recombine to smooth out mutations, unlike the X.

Just recently some researchers in Japan have managed to successfully complete ovular merging in mice--where two mothers combine their eggs to produce a daughter--paving the way for future single-sex reproduction while at the same time enjoying the benefits of sexual reproduction (i.e. diversity that isn't at risk of wipeout from a single pathogen.)

Some species of lizards have been doing all-female reproduction, although some may need the presence of sperm from a few males as a catalyst. But parthogenesis it is not an altogether unnatural state.

Perhaps a few very vocal radical feminists may take such news to heart, but this may not be a simple case of getting rid of all of society's problems caused by men, because people are a range of genders. Each person is a combination of 'masculine' and 'feminine'... according to Kinsey each person is a combination of 'homosexual' and 'heterosexual' even. Thus drawing an arbitrary line between those who have penises and those who have not and getting rid of those who have it will not be a surefire method of ridding the world of violence and misery...and the recent cases of child homicides, female gang violence in North America, and female suicide bombers attests that while it has only been recent that women can be openly violent, doesn't mean that they were never violent before. And not everything can be indirectly blamed on the men in their lives or the 'corrupt patriarchal system'.

But despite each person being a spectrum of genders, science proved that the wiring for each gender is different. What causes maleness and its gray-matter vs white-matter tendency, for instance, has been attributed to a single trigger gene within the Y-chromosome. (Some males are XX despite not having a complete Y-chromosome, as long as they have this gene).

The Y chromosome seems more like a parasite in relation to the X-chromosome, the egg its sperm carrier mates with, as well as the mother's reaction to it through the chemicals in the womb. The Y-sperm must compete with the X-sperm while swimming through a severe estrogen environment, then when a male fetus is formed (from an initial female state) it is constantly bombarded with female hormones. After it is born the mother subconsciously keeps physical distance from it (as compared with a daughter) from the belief that male babies don't need as much nurturing. The conception rate of males to females is 140+:100 while natural birth rate is 105:100. Even then, male infants are subject to far more birth defects than female infants. Indeed if nature feels that males are more disposable, then one wonders if the cause of mankind's outright subjugation of nature and women was a physiological battle that started even before conception, as if in defiance along the lines of "You tried to crush me, now I stand supreme."

With female infanticide skewing the sex ratio in India / China to around 120~130:100, political scientists are sounding alarms that as the skewing started in the early eighties, now that there is an oversupply of men entering young adulthood, with few women around to marry, they would gravitate towards extreme idealism in religious or political organizations---there will be war. But that is only if only the stereotypical warrior nature of men are considered--who knows if they may be 'feminised', give rise to couple of Gandhis, Jesus Christs, and Buddhas instead of antichrists. (or if they are thoroughly pacified erogame-playing hikkikimoris

It could be possible that indeed 'mankind' was once womankind, just like stories that pagan societies 3000BC or older were either matriarchies or true egalitarian societies, but then some powerful technological force--maybe even alien --injected a dose of Y-energy after which human civilization exploded through agriculture, industrialization, empire, and patriarchal religion. One only needs to look at the multitudes of phalluses that represents one's church, one's university, one's workplace, and one's bank. Without that yang energy, it may be that society would still be peaceful...but we would probably still be living in grass huts.

Could the decreasing rate of Y-virility be a sign that it's only meant to be a catalyst with a limited shelf-life? Is the yang energy originally designed by the supreme forces to expire once civilization reaches steady-state? Does this mean finally a plateau in technological advance / consumption of resources / destruction of environment---as it was meant to be, especially in the latter stages of globalization?

Some thinkers would rather the population reach 10+ billion (versus the U.N.s midrange projection of 9 billion peak then population decline) as that would be necessary for the technological push to get out of Earth's grip, colonize the solar system and finally achieve a renewable Type-I civilization. In that case a full Patriarchy would still be needed for explosive population growth. Feminisation always reduces population by empowering mothers, who then decide to have fewer children. The irony is that technology and women's empowerment go hand in hand, even though the former is highly phallic in nature, because of the convenience it brings. Thus, robots would take the place of men in the physical labors of the future. But then by that time, would humans have enough energy to harness? Like the steam engine in Back to the Future III, civilization may have already past the point of no-return...either its towards the stars or towards the chasm of oblivion.

------------------------------------------

Most of this is my own words by the way. Couple of sources in case you want to read on your own:

"Adam's Curse", by Bryan Sykes
"Hagakure", Yukio Mishima
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Old 2006-06-26, 12:47   Link #2
Jinto
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That reasoning is very risky, since we do not know that much about genes now. With an equivalent scientific foundation, I could claim, once we discovered the seed ai mankind is obsolete.
It may be so, but we often forget about details (details can make things impossible easily, especially if they have impact on the long run...).

However, your article is very interesting. It also questions gender affiliation as a mere biological aspect. Sociological and mental contribution to gender formation is a very interesting, yet sometimes misunderstood aspect too.

Living in germany, I see another possible future scenario. Once the world reached a certain state of technology/automation level, society becomes older and older. New generations will have lesser children then former generations. Humanity may distinct just because they see no need to reproduce themselves (or think they do not have the time to do so... and/or have not the right mood for children).
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Old 2006-06-26, 14:49   Link #3
Kiva128
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Well I predict humanity won't last 5000 generations anyways so this isn't really going to matter anyways.

The way we treat the environment and each other can only get worse if no one wants to change their ways.
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Old 2006-06-26, 15:02   Link #4
boris no no
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But without men woman won't be able to do the naughty as well ;____;
Quick men! we must freeze you all, only thawing you for a quick one or to lower the intelligence of a conversation!!!


I <3 men ^^
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Old 2006-06-26, 15:11   Link #5
Guido
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I do not think that the gene pool for us (humans) will last enough if reproduction shifts to parthenogenesis ways.

It will eventually deplete or running out of dominant genes, leaving only recessive ones.

Also, take into account that parthenogenesis is put into full efectiveness for species inhabiting environments where ONLY no changes takes place.


The defect of the Y chromosomes lies that it can neither be paired up with other chromosomes nor can recombine itself with the X chromosome.

In humans, only about a 5% of genetic material found in small pieces at the ends of the X chromosome is also common to the Y chromosome.

These genes include:
AMGL (amelogenin)
ANT3Y (adenine nucleotide translocator-3 on the Y)
ASMTY (which stands for acetylserotonin methyltransferase)
AZF1 (azoospermia factor 1)
AZF2 (azoospermia factor 2)
BPY2 (basic protein on the Y chromosome)
CSF2RY (granulocyte-macrophage colony-stimulating factor receptor, alpha subunit on the Y chromosome)
DAZ (deleted in azoospermia)
IL3RAY (interleukin-3 receptor)
PRKY (protein kinase, Y-linked)
RBM1 (RNA binding motif protein, Y chromosome, family 1, member A1)
RBM2 (RNA binding motif protein 2)
SRY (sex-determining region)
TDF (testis determining factor)
TSPY (testis-specific protein)
UTY (ubiquitously transcribed TPR gene on Y chromosome)
ZFY (zinc finger protein)

The Y-chromosome was not manufactured defective, but it was evolution through millions of years that reduce both the size and the genetic information found in the Y-chromosome to limit itself only to male fertility.

Humans
X-chromosome accounts to 99.62% of DNA
Y-chromosome accounts to 00.38% of DNA
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Old 2006-06-26, 15:26   Link #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiva128
Well I predict humanity won't last 5000 generations anyways so this isn't really going to matter anyways.

The way we treat the environment and each other can only get worse if no one wants to change their ways.
Frankly, I agree with that. :/ Taken as a whole, humans are too selfish and thoughtless to stop damaging the planet. I'm not saying individuals can't be nice people, but in my experience they're the rarer sort... much rarer. I could happily go on some kind of ultra cynical rant here, but it's not exactly the place for it.

Anyway though, that was an interesting and thought provoking read. I don't have any more to add than the above (I don't know a great deal about this kind of stuff), sorry, but thanks for sharing. ^^ Gave me something to do for a while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boris no no
But without men woman won't be able to do the naughty as well ;____;
Not a fan of yuri, eh? Some women seem to get along just fine without men.
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Old 2006-06-26, 16:06   Link #7
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Yeah but who will get the spider out of the bath-tub?
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Old 2006-06-26, 16:10   Link #8
JanthraX^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boris no no
But without men woman won't be able to do the naughty as well ;____;
Quick men! we must freeze you all, only thawing you for a quick one or to lower the intelligence of a conversation!!!


I <3 men ^^
ahh, i see we still have you fooled,
i will let you in on a little secret, we drop the intelligence of the converstion so as not to confuse the ladies or make them feel on a lower level. ;]

also Shay seems to have found the ultimate downfall of the all female society, the SPIDERS!!!!!!!!!
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Old 2006-06-26, 17:08   Link #9
Kurz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boris no no
But without men woman won't be able to do the naughty as well ;____;
Quick men! we must freeze you all, only thawing you for a quick one or to lower the intelligence of a conversation!!!


I <3 men ^^
When I wake up... There better be a female harem waiting for me, or I am going to demand you to refreeze me.

Going back on topic:
Frankly we are headed to an age of Massive diversation. Though because of modern day medicine more and more genetically deficient people are living to reproductive age. Which one day will bite our growing race in the arse.

I am not saying we should prevent these people from reproducing. Its just going to force us to use genetic engineering eventually.

Till then people with a decent health and above average intelligence, have as many kids as you can with someone with equal or greater genetic health. Your great great grand children will probably thank you.

All this talk about children being a burden... wth, so what you cant have the house or the car of your dreams? Those are just objects that will rust and crumble away... The one thing that will have any lasting effect is you guessed it your genes. So spread them around.

Though try sticking with one partner, we live in a modern society right now.

For instance, I do have some cool genetic abilities dealing with internal infection.
Spoiler for If you want to read my medical story:
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Old 2006-06-26, 17:40   Link #10
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiva128
Well I predict humanity won't last 5000 generations anyways so this isn't really going to matter anyways.
Even if we don't kill ourselves, genetic engineering, and just natural evolution may make us extinct anyway. Though, at least in those cases, we'd leave decendents to carry on our legacy and conquer the universe.

Anyway, getting back to the original topic, yes the y chromosome is going to eventually be eliminated. However, that will not necessarily mean no more males, or males that have more feminine traits. Some other species have already lost the Y chromosome. Now, as in the case of those lizards mentioned, it's resulted in no males, but the majority of times it results in the gene that triggers male development being found on an x chromosome. As DaFool mentioned, some males already are XX. This would of course be benefitial to the species, as many illnesses are caused by a defective gene on the Y chromosome. (Hence the observation DaFool made about the higher instance of birth defects in males.)

This is assuming no artificial intervention of course.
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Old 2006-06-26, 17:53   Link #11
Kurz
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I also forgot to hit on Y chromosome in my post.
As long as everything works, I am fine with that.
Though if it doesnt work that way we'll just die off.

God I completely forgot this in my post.

"Procreation was meant to be fun! So have fun doing it!"
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Old 2006-06-26, 19:14   Link #12
Ending
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*Looks down*

Guess it's going for you, little buddy; the feminists want to clip you out. Sorry!

Seriously, though, it sounded like a serious feminist propaganda with suggestions that Y-chromosome (=men) are parasites when compared to X. During these times I'm pretty happy with the fact that millions of women still live in slave-like position... Some of our local ones could use some pain and humility too.

But what comes, comes... At least we can hope that Moon will be colonized soon. Nothing impossible, that.
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Old 2006-06-26, 20:16   Link #13
Sakaki
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Eehh..I have to go along with The Damogran Frond Crested Eagle on this one.
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Old 2006-06-26, 20:45   Link #14
ChainLegacy
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Humans have lived for thousands of years without evolving. We aren't going to turn into lizards anytime soon (and by soon I mean 5000 generations and unlike most of you, I don't believe we're all going to kill ourselves because of technology).
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Old 2006-06-26, 21:07   Link #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainLegacy
Humans have lived for thousands of years without evolving. We aren't going to turn into lizards anytime soon (and by soon I mean 5000 generations and unlike most of you, I don't believe we're all going to kill ourselves because of technology).
Not true; every biological species is continually evolving with each generation, subtly responding to environmental demands. The main conditions of evolution are of course, survival and reproduction. People are still dying of natural causes like sicknesses and allergies, wiping them out of participation in the gene pool. They also die of "constructed" causes like the inability to get a job due to lack of intelligence, competence etc (but this is buffered by the nanny state system).

Anyway, this continual change in the species' biological profile over each subsequent generation is called a "micro" evolution. When the profile changes radically enough (due to environmental demands and whatnot), there will sometimes be a large enough change that is physically differentiable or biologically significant. This is the so called "macro" evolution step... but I really need to read more to be very sure of the terminology.

Regardless, we -are- continually evolving; but at a very slow rate. This is, for example, because instead of people dying off from diseases and having their genes wiped from the gene pool, we have medicine.
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Old 2006-06-27, 03:44   Link #16
Lost
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Personally, I found most of that speculative at most; but nice essay DaFool, made me think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFool
Could the decreasing rate of Y-virility be a sign that it's only meant to be a catalyst with a limited shelf-life? Is the yang energy originally designed by the supreme forces to expire once civilization reaches steady-state? Does this mean finally a plateau in technological advance / consumption of resources / destruction of environment---as it was meant to be, especially in the latter stages of globalization?
I find that unrealistic. Are you looking down on the female gender? What is to say that an androgynous society will reach a constant in the above areas? Can we really predict that less men means a controlled birth rate? What of the inherent instinctual *want* of females to be mothers? What of preservation of your genetic line, female or otherwise? Birth rates may very well continue as they already are. This would lead to the same increasing consumption of resources, and environmental destruction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFool
After it is born the mother subconsciously keeps physical distance from it (as compared with a daughter) from the belief that male babies don't need as much nurturing.
Ahhh.... Die.

I can foresee some problems too. Two ova. One womb.

"Its my baby!!"
"No, its my baby!!"
"Mine!!"
"No, mine!"

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Old 2006-06-27, 06:46   Link #17
boris no no
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JanthraX^
ahh, i see we still have you fooled,
i will let you in on a little secret, we drop the intelligence of the converstion so as not to confuse the ladies or make them feel on a lower level. ;]

also Shay seems to have found the ultimate downfall of the all female society, the SPIDERS!!!!!!!!!
*bites*
BOYS SMELL! *throws rocks*

Plus another thing I love spiders ;D and frogs! I want a frog soooo bad ;___;
Plus there are more girls studying at university (well in the UK) then boys so girls will one day rule all the boys WITH OUR HIGH POWERED JOBS AND MONEYS!! bwahahahahahahahahahahahaaha
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Old 2006-06-27, 07:27   Link #18
Syaoran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boris no no
*bites*
BOYS SMELL! *throws rocks*

Plus another thing I love spiders ;D and frogs! I want a frog soooo bad ;___;
Plus there are more girls studying at university (well in the UK) then boys so girls will one day rule all the boys WITH OUR HIGH POWERED JOBS AND MONEYS!! bwahahahahahahahahahahahaaha
In the end why not ? If there're no robots to do the hard labour, men will have to do it and women can have the fancy jobs. I don't know many girls that would work in construction, production or even mining. It's not my first choice either, but it's something we could do shouldn't we have the opportunity to have a nicer job.

Personally I'd be happy if I find a girlfriend/wife that has a better job than me. It's nothing to be ashamed of like many guys think -_- Even if she's more intelligent I wouldn't mind it ^^ Most women are more intelligent than men anyway.
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Old 2006-06-27, 09:38   Link #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFool
With female infanticide skewing the sex ratio in India / China to around 120~130:100, political scientists are sounding alarms that as the skewing started in the early eighties, now that there is an oversupply of men entering young adulthood, with few women around to marry, they would gravitate towards extreme idealism in religious or political organizations---there will be war. But that is only if only the stereotypical warrior nature of men are considered--who knows if they may be 'feminised', give rise to couple of Gandhis, Jesus Christs, and Buddhas instead of antichrists.
"cry" . Nvm u answered my question at thh end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiva128
Well I predict humanity won't last 5000 generations anyways so this isn't really going to matter anyways.

The way we treat the environment and each other can only get worse if no one wants to change their ways.
How long would you consider 1 generation? If i'm correct 1 generation = to 22 years. so 5000x22 = 110000 years or 110 millenium. And you're true, the earth can't last that long anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356
Even if we don't kill ourselves, genetic engineering, and just natural evolution may make us extinct anyway. Though, at least in those cases, we'd leave decendents to carry on our legacy and conquer the universe.

Anyway, getting back to the original topic, yes the y chromosome is going to eventually be eliminated. However, that will not necessarily mean no more males, or males that have more feminine traits. Some other species have already lost the Y chromosome. Now, as in the case of those lizards mentioned, it's resulted in no males, but the majority of times it results in the gene that triggers male development being found on an x chromosome. As DaFool mentioned, some males already are XX. This would of course be benefitial to the species, as many illnesses are caused by a defective gene on the Y chromosome. (Hence the observation DaFool made about the higher instance of birth defects in males.)

This is assuming no artificial intervention of course.
No one has mentioned therotical nanotechnology yet, but yet we have consider all of those above. But isn't it true that even though males beginnings comes with more birth defects, but as we age it becomes less? Then we have the female population to extrapolate, and as they (meaning the females) grow and age, the defects become more apparant, no?
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Last edited by Aoie_Emesai; 2006-06-29 at 07:28.
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Old 2006-06-27, 10:04   Link #20
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Nanana, I couldn't care less about this all, I'm a frog, I can turn to male or female whenever I need it!!!

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