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Old 2008-09-27, 04:00   Link #261
PzIVf3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
okay, your grammar needs work, btw...

Kira actually SLASHED IMPULSE IN TWO when Shinn entered SEED mode and Shinn could not do any significant damage when he is still on normal mode....

It is just that Shinn still has about a million Silhouettes left in his arsenal. ..
cont.
.........SLASHED IMPULSE IN TWO by knockout only the head and the left arm but not the core splendor but Shinn did significant taking out the beam rifle, a single high beam cannon and the aerodynamic wings.
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Old 2008-09-27, 04:08   Link #262
aeriolewinters
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Quote:
cont.
.........SLASHED IMPULSE IN TWO by knockout only the head and the left arm but not the core splendor but Shinn did significant taking out the beam rifle, a single high beam cannon and the aerodynamic wings.
All Because it is Impulse, had the suit not had the advantageous features of Impulse, then it is doomed.

And ahem.... not only did Shinn just Show off what you obviously can do with detachable, replaceable parts, he had an opponent who did not care to take out the cockpit first.
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Old 2008-09-27, 04:37   Link #263
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Originally Posted by midnightlumina View Post
All Because it is Impulse, had the suit not had the advantageous features of Impulse, then it is doomed.

And ahem.... not only did Shinn just Show off what you obviously can do with detachable, replaceable parts, he had an opponent who did not care to take out the cockpit first.
Ahem.... don't forget the Freedom and the all types of mobile suit has no ejection seat its a 50/50 chance survival percentage if you get shot down and crash to the ground without serious of broken bones so the Impulse has the high percentage survival advantage and continue to fought on.
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Old 2008-09-27, 05:57   Link #264
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Originally Posted by PzIVf3 View Post
Ahem.... don't forget the Freedom and the all types of mobile suit has no ejection seat its a 50/50 chance survival percentage if you get shot down and crash to the ground without serious of broken bones so the Impulse has the high percentage survival advantage and continue to fought on.
What? Obviously, you have not been reading what I have been posting. EVEN THE STANDARD GINN HAD EJECTOR SEATS. AEGIS HAD IT, AND THEREFORE, FREEDOM WILL TOO. IT IS COMMON SENSE THAT AN ADVANCED MOBILE SUIT WILL HAVE AN ADVANCED SAFETY SYSTEM!!

Anyways, again, you reaffirmed midnightlumina's point. Had it been any other mobile suit, Shinn would have been defeated. Do I have to go through this again??
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Old 2008-09-27, 06:20   Link #265
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Originally Posted by Paladinoras View Post
What? Obviously, you have not been reading what I have been posting. EVEN THE STANDARD GINN HAD EJECTOR SEATS. AEGIS HAD IT, AND THEREFORE, FREEDOM WILL TOO. IT IS COMMON SENSE THAT AN ADVANCED MOBILE SUIT WILL HAVE AN ADVANCED SAFETY SYSTEM!!

Anyways, again, you reaffirmed midnightlumina's point. Had it been any other mobile suit, Shinn would have been defeated. Do I have to go through this again??


Aegis? what episode did he eject w/ a pilot seat? he just escape from the hatch.


Is that really true the Freedom could ejected like that w/ a body a head?
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Old 2008-09-27, 06:40   Link #266
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Originally Posted by midnightlumina View Post
Sorry, but Rau was concentrated at causing Havoc, doesn't mean to say that Kira has no chance beating him, because in SEED/Destiny.... RAGE >>>> Concentration, just ask Rau...

And mind you, if Kira was in the same emotional state as Shinn was, He would've ripped Impulse into pieces. It's this simple, Kira had nothing more to gain if he defeated Shinn, But Shinn practically had a target sign on Freedom. Given enough motivation to destroy impulse, Kira would've done so.

Considering the fact that Shinn Expected the no-kill tactic from Kira at first; It broke Kira's rythym. Thus affecting the whole battle, had Kira started as if he's going to kill Impulse, Shinn would've been the one to lose it.

But nonetheless, Kira still had his fault for not trying to go all out.
Well Rau just toying with him from the first he should just finished by just 2nd without needed trigger happy firing from the escape pod that Fray is inside there.

And where will Kira find to adjust the revenge mode with just between Shinn and Kira?
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Old 2008-09-27, 06:55   Link #267
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Oh look what the GINN ejection seat look like he's just attached survival gear and flown off.
[IMG][/IMG]


Quote:
Originally Posted by PzIVf3 View Post
Aegis? what episode did he eject w/ a pilot seat? he just escape from the hatch.


Is that really true the Freedom could ejected like that w/ a body a head?
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Old 2008-09-27, 08:09   Link #268
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Many MS in CE don't have ejection seat,save for Impulse which have core splendor that can be use as an escape craft.
Imagine AA get blown by Minerva that day, Kira will fight Shinn with his full strength.
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Old 2008-09-27, 16:38   Link #269
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Originally Posted by midnightlumina View Post
Well, we could say that, but considering that Shinn had backup and Kira had none(Except Mwu) during the Strike days... I'd say all in all that Kira is better based on the fact that Kira has an etched attitude during those days that it's 'one and done' due to the fact that Strike is the only MS that the EA can utilize, if Strike was taken out of the equation during most of the battles in SEED, AA would've been sunk, It was proven during ep 36, that they really needed Strike. The same cannot be said of Shinn and Impulse, suure he did those things, but there's one thing, everyone other pilot can use Impulse. Rey and Luna could pilot, but If Kira during those days was not around, then there was no pilot capable of Defending the Archangel, so it's clear, Kira knows how to handle pressure by this time, Shinn on the other hand has not proven to be....(this term is usually associated with pressure), clutch.

Kira's battles have been more intense, and with more pressure too(and it does not help that Fllay prods you to unleash on your fellow Coordinators).

Shinn had pretty good resources. With Minerva , he has unlimited energy, unlimited respawns and good backup MS. Kira just had Mwu and Himself going against the absolute best of ZAFT. He had to conserve his every move because he is limited by his hardware, Shinn on the other hand just needed to bump Meyrin for more energy
First off, I fail to see how the lack of good pilots on the AA somehow makes Kira a better pilot. Secondly sure Kira was under pressure, but he fought better as a result of the pressure. His first SEED mode was a result of Nicol standing on the AA shooting at it, Flay's manipulation again made him more aggresive and in general helped him pilot better. Shinn never had the same kind of pressure to deal with (unless you're talking about watching Kira and Athrun return from the grave, or hallucinating visions of Mayu and Stella as he was fighting IJ - but that's a different kind of pressure all together), but I'm sure he would have no problem dealing witht he pressure of defending the AA, I've yet to see evidence to the contrary.

And Kira fighting ZAFT's best? The BuCUEs certainly are probably the best show of skill of un-named grunts in CE, but they couldn't even damage the Strike until it ran out of battery power. Infact the only thing that could damage Strike with phase-shift on were the other Gundams and (I think) Andy's custom BuCUE (or wtv it was), whereas basically everything Shinn fought could damage him. It also wasn't just Mwu and Kira, since the AA itself is quite the formidable opponent too.

And sure Shinn had more resources, but he also blew a lot more shit up with his extra resources, and used more tactics in one fight (Impulse vs Freedom) than I think Kira's used ever (although I guess it can be argued that he needed tactics to make up for his lack of raw skill when compared to Kira *shrug*)

*************************************************
As for the Impulse vs Freedom, I've recently seen someone argue that Kira was indeed ready to kill. The basic argument is that when Kira starts the swing that takes off Impulse's arm and head, Shinn moves into the swing and had Shinn not moved he would have been killed. Wanderer's post in this thread on seed-forums.com, put together some screenshot evidence. I think the other instance would be when Kira takes a swipe at the Impulse's lower body, Shinn detaches his legs while flying upwards and Kira ends up swinging between the detached legs and the stomach, again the argument being that if Shinn didn't move he'd have been killed.

Personally I'm skeptical about both cases and would avoid using either in a debate, but it does provide a nice counter to the 'lol Kira would totally pwn Shinn if he wanted to' arguments I see over and over.

********************************************

And if Kira is indeed better than Shinn (I think I've actually admitted as much somewhere in this thread ), then Kira is I think the only Gundam protagonist (or maybe pilot period) to lose to an inferior pilot. Not looking to hot for the 'Kira is the best Gundam pilot next to Amuro' proclamation I saw earlier (something I doubt is based on anything but fanboying).
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Old 2008-09-27, 17:10   Link #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles View Post
First off, I fail to see how the lack of good pilots on the AA somehow makes Kira a better pilot. Secondly sure Kira was under pressure, but he fought better as a result of the pressure. His first SEED mode was a result of Nicol standing on the AA shooting at it, Flay's manipulation again made him more aggresive and in general helped him pilot better. Shinn never had the same kind of pressure to deal with (unless you're talking about watching Kira and Athrun return from the grave, or hallucinating visions of Mayu and Stella as he was fighting IJ - but that's a different kind of pressure all together), but I'm sure he would have no problem dealing witht he pressure of defending the AA, I've yet to see evidence to the contrary.

And Kira fighting ZAFT's best? The BuCUEs certainly are probably the best show of skill of un-named grunts in CE, but they couldn't even damage the Strike until it ran out of battery power. Infact the only thing that could damage Strike with phase-shift on were the other Gundams and (I think) Andy's custom BuCUE (or wtv it was), whereas basically everything Shinn fought could damage him. It also wasn't just Mwu and Kira, since the AA itself is quite the formidable opponent too.

And sure Shinn had more resources, but he also blew a lot more shit up with his extra resources, and used more tactics in one fight (Impulse vs Freedom) than I think Kira's used ever (although I guess it can be argued that he needed tactics to make up for his lack of raw skill when compared to Kira *shrug*)

*************************************************
As for the Impulse vs Freedom, I've recently seen someone argue that Kira was indeed ready to kill. The basic argument is that when Kira starts the swing that takes off Impulse's arm and head, Shinn moves into the swing and had Shinn not moved he would have been killed. Wanderer's post in this thread on seed-forums.com, put together some screenshot evidence. I think the other instance would be when Kira takes a swipe at the Impulse's lower body, Shinn detaches his legs while flying upwards and Kira ends up swinging between the detached legs and the stomach, again the argument being that if Shinn didn't move he'd have been killed.

Personally I'm skeptical about both cases and would avoid using either in a debate, but it does provide a nice counter to the 'lol Kira would totally pwn Shinn if he wanted to' arguments I see over and over.

********************************************

And if Kira is indeed better than Shinn (I think I've actually admitted as much somewhere in this thread ), then Kira is I think the only Gundam protagonist (or maybe pilot period) to lose to an inferior pilot. Not looking to hot for the 'Kira is the best Gundam pilot next to Amuro' proclamation I saw earlier (something I doubt is based on anything but fanboying).
Well said, Eagles, well said. Reps for you.

To me, Shinn had a capability to become a much cooler character. But instead Kira took him along down the path of fan-oriented decrease in the quality of the show.

To me, Force Impulse > Strike in terms of design and pretty much everything it did in the show :]

And Destiny > Strike Freedom. Gotta love those wings of light
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Old 2008-09-27, 18:09   Link #271
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I agree with Sir Dearka, Shinn can be a great character.
If only Sunrise make an GS anime that focus on Shinn,with some kind "redemption" theme in it.Others main character in CE such as Kira make cameo appearance,while Athrun his mentor.

It kinda like Gundam ZZ that focus on Judau.Early in GSD episode it focus on Shinn which I like it,Sunrise should make one anime for Shinn that can be tied to the upcoming GS movie.

I hope Destiny gundam will appear again,I like it design hence I have it model kit.
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Old 2008-09-27, 20:47   Link #272
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Quote:
As for the Impulse vs Freedom, I've recently seen someone argue that Kira was indeed ready to kill. The basic argument is that when Kira starts the swing that takes off Impulse's arm and head, Shinn moves into the swing and had Shinn not moved he would have been killed. Wanderer's post in this thread on seed-forums.com, put together some screenshot evidence. I think the other instance would be when Kira takes a swipe at the Impulse's lower body, Shinn detaches his legs while flying upwards and Kira ends up swinging between the detached legs and the stomach, again the argument being that if Shinn didn't move he'd have been killed.

Personally I'm skeptical about both cases and would avoid using either in a debate, but it does provide a nice counter to the 'lol Kira would totally pwn Shinn if he wanted to' arguments I see over and over.
I'm totally fine with this, but there's only one exception, After getting Destiny, Shinn didn't resort to those tactics again.... Hmmm.,... why is it again? It's because it's not the Impulse Anymore.... And I assure you, If Kira studied the Impulse, the way Shinn studied the Freedom, then there's a great chance that won't happen.

You see the thing here is, when you see Shinn look like a caveman strutting Destiny's ASSword, and going gung-ho on everyone. You're going to ask yourself: "How the hell is this guy better than Kira?"

Let's make it more simple, lets make the Strike hold Silhouette packs, rate it's output the same as Impulse's and install a Deuterion beam system on it, lets see if Shinn can make good of it against Kira in Freedom (During SEED).

or

Let's make this again simple, lets make Kira really, really pissed off and Shinn really really calmed down , would the battle still bear the same results?

To me, two factors made this battle:
1. Shinn's motivation to kill off Freedom.
2. Impulse as a Special case against Kira's tactics.
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Old 2008-09-27, 23:11   Link #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Dearka View Post
Well said, Eagles, well said. Reps for you.
hifive

Quote:
To me, Shinn had a capability to become a much cooler character. But instead Kira took him along down the path of fan-oriented decrease in the quality of the show.
Oh Shinn would have been my favorite Gundam protagonist if they had properly handled him. When Shinn comes back from 'killing' Athrun and Meyrin and him and Luna end up holding each other and crying and he says some thing like 'I'll definitely end this war, I won't let anything like this happen again,' I though that was a perfect spot to have some serious character growth for Shinn.

Quote:
To me, Force Impulse > Strike in terms of design and pretty much everything it did in the show :]
I generally like the Impulse more, but when it pieces itself together in the air? Yea not liking that so much.

Quote:
And Destiny > Strike Freedom. Gotta love those wings of light
*nods* I have a very soft spot for after-images.

********************************************

Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightlumina View Post
I'm totally fine with this, but there's only one exception, After getting Destiny, Shinn didn't resort to those tactics again.... Hmmm.,... why is it again? It's because it's not the Impulse Anymore....
Yes, Shinn in Destiny is not nearly as impressive as Shinn in Impulse, the same can be said for Kira with his ascension from Strike to Freedom, they both go from being creative pilots to very static and predictable. Had Shinn piloted Destiny like he did Impulse when Kira caught his ASS, he would have simply dropped it and used his palm-cannon. The same can be said for Kira in Freedom vs Rau, had Kira been pushing the Freedom to its limit the way he did with Strike he would have wiped the floor with Rau without needing Flay to die and give him a power up.

It's not like Shinn was just simply using the Impulse's tools as any average joe would have. Impulse isn't the only Gundam with a shield with anti-beam coating on it and a beam rifle, yet Shinn is the only one to throw it and reflect a beam off of it (although he isn't the only one to throw his shield, Kira did it in Strike and Athrun in Aegis). Shinn ducking underwater to dodge a beam? He could have done that any MS that can fly. And if you're 'totally fine' with what I wrote then Shinn moving into Kira's swing so as to avoid a fatal hit would be another show of skill, once again he could have done that with any MS that can fly. Yet he doesn't do anything like this in the Destiny, which is indeed a deterioration in skill.

Quote:
And I assure you, If Kira studied the Impulse, the way Shinn studied the Freedom, then there's a great chance that won't happen.
You have to consider a few things however:
- Impulse is not nearly as predictable as Freedom (Kira uses the same tactics over and over)
- Again if you're 'totally fine' with what I posted then Shinn's studying would only help when dodging Kira's beam rifle (which it does since he dodges and blocks using small movements rather than flipping and twirling about), since if Kira was aiming for the torso Shinn would need to adjust on the spot.
- And while the outcome may have changed, I will never get why people (not saying you're doing it) count Shinn's preparations as a negative for Shinn, since it only makes sense to practice and train.

Quote:
You see the thing here is, when you see Shinn look like a caveman strutting Destiny's ASSword, and going gung-ho on everyone. You're going to ask yourself: "How the hell is this guy better than Kira?"
You see the thing is, when you see Kira flying around just beam spamming, just hitting like two buttons, you're going to ask yourself: "How can anyone call this skill?"

We can do that all day, I suggest we don't. Plus I've already said that Shinn in Destiny with SEED mode is roughly equal to Kira in SF with SEED mode, with Kira not willing to kill.

Quote:
Let's make it more simple, lets make the Strike hold Silhouette packs, rate it's output the same as Impulse's and install a Deuterion beam system on it, lets see if Shinn can make good of it against Kira in Freedom (During SEED).
Shinn didn't need to recharge his MS during his fight vs Freedom so the deuterium isn't needed. Shinn can even do a lot of the stuff he did in Impulse with Strike with strike modified the way you described. Reflecting a beam off his shield? He can do that. Dodging into Kira's attack? He can do that. Having his sword pack launched and pulling off a beam boomerang to throw at Freedom to turn it around? He can do that. Pulling out the ASS while keeping his Force pack on? He can do that.

What he can't do obviously is throw his parts to damage Freedom, although I don't know how much of a difference that made in the overall fight. And of course he can't replace his head and arm that got cut off, although if he can hold the ASS with one arm and has more than just a head camera then I'm not sure the fight would have changed at all (and if he doesn't he can always open his cockpit to see ). Of course I'm being very generous to Shinn here, and I'll admit that.

Either way I doubt the fight would play out the same way, Shinn would have prepared and adjusted differently. The chances of him beating Kira are certainly lower however. Although I'm not sure what the point of nerfing Shinn like that is, it's not like Freedom is a mere grunt suit either.


Quote:
Let's make this again simple, lets make Kira really, really pissed off and Shinn really really calmed down , would the battle still bear the same results?
I would love this battle actually, because I think Shinn being calmed down would work in his favor. Shinn pilots best when he uses his head, going berserk doesn't seem to help Shinn in the way it does Kira and Athrun. Destiny vs IJ for example, Shinn would have put up a much better fight if he hadn't been raging like a lunatic. Anyway I imagine Shinn would pull out some seriously awesome tactics to counter a berserk Kira. Who would win? *shrugs* It would be well worth watching though.

Quote:
To me, two factors made this battle:
1. Shinn's motivation to kill off Freedom.
2. Impulse as a Special case against Kira's tactics.
1. I'm not sure that Shinn's motivation was a deciding factor, considering he's never hesitated against anyone except people who he personally knew. That and Shinn knew Freedom was a formidable opponent, if he was ordered to take on Freedom I don't doubt that he'd prepare himself, the only difference being that when the AA apparently sunk he might just let Freedom's pilot go die at sea of starvation or something.

2. Not all of Shinn's tactic needed the Impulse to work. Plus I'm sure he could pushed another MS in the same way he did Impulse. Imagine if he could turn invisible like the Blitz could (but unable to change parts/packs or something), he would be going in and out of visibility while tearing the Freedom apart (weird example I know - I always wished the Blitz had been given to a better pilot).


p.s. It may not seem it, but I actually agree that Kira is better (although I think Shinn in Impulse was better than Kira in Strike - I've already given my ridiculous terms for which I'll concede that point ). I just dislike people downplaying Shinn's skill and I do think that Shinn has the capicity to defeat Kira (well he did it once).

p.p.s. I also still think Athrun is the best.

p.p.p.s. That took a long time to write, I'm not doing that again unless theres something I disagree with wholeheartidly
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Old 2008-09-28, 01:10   Link #274
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Another partay.
This just keeps getting better, and better.

Screw the arguments.
The point is Shinn lost and ran away like a chi--- Rey told him to go back in the end, and he basically had no chances in touching Kira during the final battle.

Shinn destroyed Freedom, and defeated Kira.

So what?

With him having so many advantages, and Kira being so handicapped, so what if he won?

You guys can bask in the glory of an undeveloped, lousy, popularity down character all you want. I, along with the others, can bask in the glory of a side character who pwn'ed the main character in Destiny, no matter how a "puppet" he was. He still looked good. He was all developed in SEED, but I see the development in him some of you don't see in Destiny. His popularity overlaps Shinn.

Yeah, Kira's a robot, a puppet, a cyborg. Robots, puppets, cyborgs ftw.
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Old 2008-09-28, 01:23   Link #275
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Yeah, Kira's a robot, a puppet, a cyborg. Robots, puppets, cyborgs ftw.
Which is the reason why we have to argue here.... Had Kira took this fight with a bit more Oomph to it, we wouldn't need to talk about it anymore.

I'm just giving Kira the benefit of the doubt that had he took this like it was supposed to be his last battle, the results might've been different.

@Eagles: Point accepted, but what the heck... If Kira didn't think about shooting down the Silhouette when Impulse is reforming...How the heck is this Kira better than his previous battles during SEED?
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Old 2008-09-28, 03:17   Link #276
Sir Dearka
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Originally Posted by Neku View Post
Another partay.
This just keeps getting better, and better.

Screw the arguments.
The point is Shinn lost and ran away like a chi--- Rey told him to go back in the end, and he basically had no chances in touching Kira during the final battle.

Shinn destroyed Freedom, and defeated Kira.

So what?

With him having so many advantages, and Kira being so handicapped, so what if he won?

You guys can bask in the glory of an undeveloped, lousy, popularity down character all you want. I, along with the others, can bask in the glory of a side character who pwn'ed the main character in Destiny, no matter how a "puppet" he was. He still looked good. He was all developed in SEED, but I see the development in him some of you don't see in Destiny. His popularity overlaps Shinn.

Yeah, Kira's a robot, a puppet, a cyborg. Robots, puppets, cyborgs ftw.
Yeah, we know that Kira is a more popular character. So...?

It's because he was more popularm that creators changed the series and turned it into his tour-de-force. Laame...
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Old 2008-09-28, 04:24   Link #277
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Originally Posted by Sir Dearka View Post
Yeah, we know that Kira is a more popular character. So...?

It's because he was more popularm that creators changed the series and turned it into his tour-de-force. Laame...
Then it is hardly Kira's fault if he is more likeable than Shinn.

@Eagles: OMG, text walls. Sorry, but I don't feel like reading all that.. . .

@PzIVf3: Ejector seats are a minimal requirement for mobile suits in the CE era. It is official, they even have a history of it. I'd love to show you the link, but I forgot where it is and I am too lazy to look for it. Maybe tomorrow.

@Neku: Heh, my thoughts exactly. I still like Kira despite all of his shortcomings. Besides, if people just quit over-analyzing him, he is actually a good guy. Call him a cyborg, bla, bla, bla, in the end, he is still the number second most popular character in the Animage and has remained in the top 3 ever since Gundam Seed was launched. Shinn is prolly number 21094719247192478743284710937413097481378165826356 3427564752634875673456487354564235


So yeah . .
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Old 2008-09-28, 05:38   Link #278
Sir Dearka
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Kira after Destiny is like Britney Spears on the peak of her career: Most popular, but cheap. Shinn is like Axel Rose - great potential, but wasted too early
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Old 2008-09-28, 07:28   Link #279
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Originally Posted by Sir Dearka View Post
Yeah, we know that Kira is a more popular character. So...?

It's because he was more popularm that creators changed the series and turned it into his tour-de-force. Laame...
Yeah, it also proves Shinn fails. He was developing. But he failed, and turned undeveloped.
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Old 2008-09-28, 08:16   Link #280
Sir Dearka
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Originally Posted by Neku View Post
Yeah, it also proves Shinn fails. He was developing. But he failed, and turned undeveloped.
But of course. Everybody pretty much failed in Destiny. But to me Kira's failure is of the worst kind - being so cheap in his "perfectness" that it just seems lame.
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