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Old 2006-01-10, 21:56   Link #61
plastic unicorn
(miko-senpai)
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Europe
Age: 31
To be fair, I have not kept up with the series... and that is perhaps a fair criticism.

I am not a film student, though I would like to think that it is a bit of a hobby of mine. If you want, you are welcome to come over mine and I we can watch Lamune together and I shall show you exactly what I mean when I say that the character interactions are (as i think that i put it) like reading from a script for the first time...

Furudanuki, when you say that perhaps this appeals to older viewers... i have been watching anime for about 6 or so years now, and as for my age I am (ahh, dont look) going on 23. [edit: just noticed that my age is actually displayed under my user-name on the left...whoops!]
However, looking at your 'Now watching' list in your sig... well, I can say that the only thing we have in common is Karin. it should be noted, as actually should go without saying, that my opinion is not a judgement passed upon anyone else... I am more than appreciative that we all have different tastes; my dislike for lamune (as far as i saw) was that the interactions between the two main characters just came accross to me as very forced and as such very false.
Though Karin isnt my favorite anime, I think that it is an appropriate example to suggest how characters might interact with each other more convincingly... there are awkward silences, yes, but they are recognised as such. In Lamune, there are constant silences between lines as if they are trying to find the right page.

As in my review, there are some cute bits. It isnt the worst thing that I have seen... but that said, although I am a big fan of 'slow anime' (e.g. Aria, Genshiken, Windy Tales etc...) there is really nothing at all that grabs me in Lamune. Nothing at all...

[edit: again!] - Please rate my aniDB review, you can provide any comments you wish to justify your rating... come on, i DARE YOU!
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Old 2006-01-10, 23:04   Link #62
rooboy
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Tejas
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by plastic unicorn
Though Karin isnt my favorite anime, I think that it is an appropriate example to suggest how characters might interact with each other more convincingly... there are awkward silences, yes, but they are recognised as such. In Lamune, there are constant silences between lines as if they are trying to find the right page.
I think this might be part of the difference you're experiencing. I've been married for ten years (well, ten years at the end of this month). Sometimes silences aren't awkward, sometimes they're just two people being quiet. One of the things I liked about their interactions is it shows a range of interactions that AREN'T just about two young people being awkward together. A lot of this I think comes down to divergent opinions, but I know one of the reasons I like it is because it deals in characters that remind me of people I actually know. Whereas, obviously, a lot of your opinion boils down to the fact that you don't believe people would act and/or speak this way.

My analysis of your analysis (I've always wanted to say that ) comes down to two things:
1) You obviously didn't watch the whole series, which is okay, but you should understand that we're talking about the whole series and you're talking about a subset of it. By reading your review I would guess you have seen the first three to four episodes, but that would just be a guess. At least I know the person above your review watched through episode five. Your review is somewhat misleading in that you're saying now that you didn't keep up with the series, but your review speaks with the authority of someone who has seen the whole thing.

2) You say this is a hobby for you, so I'll give you the following constructive criticism my film appreciation teacher gave me after my first paper. Yes, I actually took film appreciation in college. This advice is only for you if you are actually interested in having people read and/or comment on your review in some kind of constructive fashion. If you are actually interested in getting into a l33t discussion about the h0t Inuy@sh@ chixxor, then you can skip over the rest of this. A large number of community newspapers; however, could actually use someone willing to donate time reviewing books, films, or television series. So if you're interested in that, the following advice is for you and is not intended in any kind of mean spirited way.
Avoid loaded words like "hollow dissapointment" and "frustratingly poorly" unless you have constructed a very well thought out argument (including specific examples) or you are sure every person who reads your review will agree with it (which will never happen). This is particularly evident in the use of backhanded compliments. For example:
Quote:
occaisionally the cinemetography is not so blatently bad
Everyone who reads this review will understand that this is not a compliment and should not be used after the phrase:
Quote:
I have rated the enjoyment of the series a little higher based solely on several factors that are not really covered above.
Say something more like "The cinematography is very uneven. Generally it is poor; however, occasionally there are scenes that are done well." Then provide examples both ways. Do use specific examples as much as possible to bolster your points. If you're expecting anyone to take you seriously, use a spell checker. It's "disappointment" not "dissappointment", "occasionally" not "occaisionally", "cinematography" not "cinemetography", "blatantly" not "blatently" and unless you're British it's "sympathize" not "sympathise". Before you think it's nitpicking, I would like to point out that those are the ones that stopped me while I was reading your review. That's right, these misspellings were bad enough that I lost track of what you were trying to communicate. It would also not hurt for you to pick up a writing style guide. The one my first college English professor recommended was: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...18604995&itm=5.
, but I'm sure now (some eleven years later) there are probably other ones that would work just as well. Also, it's always more effective to point out a few things that are done well to contrast with all of the things you feel are done badly. If you can find nothing that is positive or negative in whatever you are reviewing, you should probably question your objectivity in submitting it.

The more interesting review (for me) to critique is the one above yours. This person commits the cardinal sin of reviewing anything: the comments and the score don't match.
Quote:
Character- So far, none of the characters have any personality but Nanami and Kenji. All of the other people are the typical cliched personalities. There isn`t really one character I actually like, which is very dissapointing because there are so many of them.
A comment like this should never be used in a category you are awarding eight points.
Quote:
Story- As stated before, there is no story. Each episode is just a typical day of Nanami and Kenji`s life during summer, with other characters being introduced. Don`t get me wrong, this show is very enjoyable to people who like slice of life anime.
This should never be used to justify a score of eight (!) in story.

EDIT: I suppose I should point out that none of this applies if you're just talking about the series in a more informal setting, like a message board or blog.
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Last edited by rooboy; 2006-01-10 at 23:15.
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Old 2006-01-11, 06:25   Link #63
plastic unicorn
(miko-senpai)
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Europe
Age: 31
Cheers for your extensive 'analysis of my analysis'! Personally I dont have the time to make any commitment to any 'community newspapers', I am in my fourth and final year at uni and the workload is getting 'entertaining!'

I understand completely what you mean with regards to my 'embellished' rant on Lamune; however let me assure you that my Sociology papers (after a couple of edits) are very much tighter and don't suffer the same distractions... also, there was about a bottle of wine involved there

Although I meant the review with all seriousness, it was not intended to be something publishable at all. I am confident that I am more than capable of writing a much better review, but again I really dont have the time (and there is a slight sense of lack of motivation... especially regarding Anime series such as lamune - cheeky! -)

My spelling has always been a bit of an issue, which has not been helped by getting used to the auto-correction in Word (or the wine). With regards to z's and s's - I have not committed to either English or non-English spelling (long story), and there are always inconsistancies there; i really need to sort that out!

The hobby I was refering to was not writing reviews, but rather I am getting into short film making here at uni (a wealth of AV resources just waiting to be exploited!) But again thanks for your constructive criticism; much of the anime-watching population are (effectively) kids, and as such find it difficult to engage in a conversation that is even pseudo-intellectual (at the very least, not about the chixxxor you referred to).

I am still having a hard time accepting that you know people like those that I saw in (yes, you are right) the first few episodes of Lamune, but then I really do have to assume that you do, else I would just be practicing poor sportsmanship. I am still downloading the series, so perhaps if i get around to watching all of it I might edit my review...

Cheers again now!
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Old 2006-01-11, 10:23   Link #64
Radiosity
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rooboy666
and unless you're British it's "sympathize" not "sympathise"
Eh? It's sympathize in the UK as well
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Old 2006-01-11, 10:29   Link #65
rooboy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plastic unicorn
Cheers for your extensive 'analysis of my analysis'! Personally I dont have the time to make any commitment to any 'community newspapers', I am in my fourth and final year at uni and the workload is getting 'entertaining!'
I understand completely what you mean with regards to my 'embellished' rant on Lamune; however let me assure you that my Sociology papers (after a couple of edits) are very much tighter and don't suffer the same distractions... also, there was about a bottle of wine involved there
Although I meant the review with all seriousness, it was not intended to be something publishable at all. I am confident that I am more than capable of writing a much better review, but again I really dont have the time (and there is a slight sense of lack of motivation... especially regarding Anime series such as lamune - cheeky! -)
I think you missed my point. Your review was published to the web. It's one thing to come onto a forum or onto a blog and write your review. But if I was reading that review of Lamune on Anidb, I would have just skipped the entire thing. After reading the rest of your post though, it is mostly irrelevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by plastic unicorn
My spelling has always been a bit of an issue, which has not been helped by getting used to the auto-correction in Word (or the wine). With regards to z's and s's - I have not committed to either English or non-English spelling (long story), and there are always inconsistancies there; i really need to sort that out!
The hobby I was refering to was not writing reviews, but rather I am getting into short film making here at uni (a wealth of AV resources just waiting to be exploited!) But again thanks for your constructive criticism; much of the anime-watching population are (effectively) kids, and as such find it difficult to engage in a conversation that is even pseudo-intellectual (at the very least, not about the chixxxor you referred to).
Ahh, that makes some sense at least. I had a hard time believing you were a university student who had committed to any kind of written analysis. But I thought it would be somewhat rude of me to point that out. And I actually don't know what chixxxor I was referring to, I just knew how to do Inuy@sh@ in l33t (I am a lowly level 1 l33t speaker). Congratulations on your new hobby! The world could use more film makers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by plastic unicorn
I am still having a hard time accepting that you know people like those that I saw in (yes, you are right) the first few episodes of Lamune, but then I really do have to assume that you do, else I would just be practicing poor sportsmanship. I am still downloading the series, so perhaps if i get around to watching all of it I might edit my review...
Well, remember that my perspective is over the course of the entire series. And yes, I do know people like the ones shown in the series. I can usually think of people who are similar to most characters, but then, I moved around a lot when I was younger, so I have been exposed to a greater than normal amount of people in my life. The interactions between Ken and Nanami, in particular, remind me of me and my high school best friend (well, my best friend at the second high school I attended, my best friend at the first one actually reminds somewhat of one of the guys from Genshinken, but that's a different story). The only character that I can honestly say I don't relate to at all is Hikari (who seems a little out there), but that's one character out of five or six, which is a much better hit rate than most anime I watch.
I'm kind of curious what series you consider to have good characters (since, again, your review provides no examples or comparisons). Because one thing about Lamune I've noticed is it falls in the (all too common) trap of using caricature instead of character for almost all of the minor characters (in Lamune this is basically everyone not named "Ken" or "Nanami"). But since that's hardly a unique failing of Lamune, I don't hold it against the series; however, it's a problem early because (like a lot of animes in the h-game to anime conversion) it spends the early episodes dealing with the characters who are not important to the series, and only develop Ken and Nanami later on. Again though, this is not a unique failing of Lamune.
I think if I were to rate the series, the ratings would probably be a smidgeon higher than yours, except for enjoyment, where I would have given it a ten; however, as other people have mentioned, we all bring different life experiences to everything. So what I get out of something is not the same as what you will get out of it.
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Old 2006-01-11, 10:32   Link #66
rooboy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiosity
Eh? It's sympathize in the UK as well
Well, my style guide (and the online merriam webster dictionary) says that in Britain you can use sympathise, but, obviously, I've never lived there, so I'll take your word for it. Either way, it's inappropriate in the US.
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Old 2006-01-11, 12:13   Link #67
Kaoru Chujo
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Well, plastic unicorn, your review was interesting and to the point. I disagree with most of your points, but they are reasonable. It's good to have a non-trolling negative opinion to talk about. I too ranked this show comparatively low at first, but it grew and grew on me. I'm still not saying it's the best of the year or anything like it, but it is an emotional highlight. Especially after the last two episodes.

What's special about Lamune is not production values or story, but Nanami and her relationship with Ken-chan: her patient-silly-wise devotion, and his gradual recognition that their bond is the strongest and best thing in his life. The almost total absence of tension in a romantic relationship makes this anime unique in my experience.

You find the characters shallow and unbelievable. Well, it's true this isn't Honey & Clover. That's not the point. Everything the show does is geared to conveying Nanami's sweetness and the romantic bond between her and Ken. For me, it succeeds extremely well. It's a kind of wish-fulfilment show, like so many others. As far as I can see, this is the essence of popular entertainment. I think you have to look a long way to find "realistic" characters (whatever that means) in anime or dorama.

Some of us don't find Nanami's voice annoying -- quite the contrary. I've noticed that some people hate that high, drippy kind of Japanese female voice and some of us love it. Just a matter of taste. But if you can't like Nanami, you can't like Lamune. Period. The seemingly awkward pacing of some of the dialogue is intentional: part of setting the show's mood.

You call it "unimaginative." I might have agreed with you after the first couple of episodes, but now I really can't think of another show like it. The slice-of-life shows like YKK and even ARIA are quite different. The similarity is that the mood is an important part of the total effect and the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. The almost plotless episodes of Lamune, with their apparently aimless dialogue, leave me with feelings that make this show a unique pleasure.
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Last edited by Kaoru Chujo; 2006-01-11 at 17:20.
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Old 2006-01-11, 13:48   Link #68
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
Actually.... long silences make more sense to me than constant babbling.... if you watch much Japanese live-action film .... you'll note that a *lot* is non-verbal context and much is made of two people just sharing space with each other.

The only thing I found a bit awkward was the very first flashback scene ... sometimes I'm not sure anime writers *have* kids, so the behavior just seemed a bit off to me. Once its established they've grown up together, the rest seems fine. My wife and I will sometimes go for hours together without saying a word while being together ... we don't *need* to? The first three episodes, effectively "nothing happened" but the observant viewer grew to understand just what these two have going.

That's the kind of relationship I see in Lamune ... a gradual steady (some skips) development and realization of a deeply bonded relationship. The animation is unevern and the art is not AIR budget (now wouldn't that be fabulous?) but the script and voice acting I find quite appealing.

rooboy: of course, you're not IN the US on the Internet .. you're on a worldwide forum. I'm rather a spelling nazi myself but one should take pains to understand that there are sometimes multiple spellings for a word (color, colour) and that many people do not use English as their first language. I'd hate it if someone flamed me for my pidgin Japanese (neophyte student of Japanese).

Last edited by Vexx; 2006-01-11 at 13:59.
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Old 2006-01-11, 14:05   Link #69
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Vexx, I know this is off topic, but where and how are you studying japanese?

I'd love to improve my knowledge since it's quite poor.

To stay on topic, I've been watching Lamune as well and enjoying it. I like the fact that Kenji isn't a typical male lead but actually quite a funny and mean guy sometimes.

Hikari annoys me, but the rest of the characters I find very likable.
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Old 2006-01-11, 14:16   Link #70
rooboy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
rooboy: of course, you're not IN the US on the Internet .. you're on a worldwide forum. I'm rather a spelling nazi myself but one should take pains to understand that there are sometimes multiple spellings for a word (color, colour) and that many people do not use English as their first language. I'd hate it if someone flamed me for my pidgin Japanese (neophyte student of Japanese).
Again, that was advice because at the time I thought he was thinking of making a hobby out of reviewing media. Though I will stand by my point on everything except criticize. If English isn't his first language, then he should post his review in whatever his first language happens to be. Notice that I haven't corrected the spelling in any of his posts, where obviously it is a less formal setting. I'm not trying to be the grammar police, but he asked for criticism of his review. Anytime something is written and/or spelled poorly it loses some of the audience, and is therefore losing some of its impact.

Again, this isn't intended for just random pulled out of the internet posts, blogs, or whatever, but when you want someone to look at a piece of writing with a critical eye, you need to be prepared for people to look at how the message is conveyed as much as what message is sent. But again, like I said, since that's not what he was talking about, it's all moot now.
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Old 2006-01-11, 14:44   Link #71
Vexx
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Aye... I sometimes do "translation check" work for some of my wife's relatives who are engineers in Japan (she's sansei). Its good to get feedback but it might be more appropriate to PM it. That said, I disagree with most of his assessment though I can see how someone might reach those conclusions after only an episode or two.

I consider Lamune to be just freaking "perfect" in the sense that Kaoru Chuju mentions in his/her? last post's second paragraph.

offtopic to Avatar about learning Japanese:
Spoiler:
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Old 2006-01-11, 15:20   Link #72
Furudanuki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plastic unicorn
Furudanuki, when you say that perhaps this appeals to older viewers... i have been watching anime for about 6 or so years now, and as for my age I am (ahh, dont look) going on 23. [edit: just noticed that my age is actually displayed under my user-name on the left...whoops!]
Just to clarify, I was not trying to imply something like, "You're too young to understand." My point was that accumulated life experience shapes how someone interprets many things. Being around for 48 years doesn't make me any more intelligent than I was in my twenties - although I hope it has made me a bit wiser! - but it does give me a different perspective. I'm not in any position to do an in-depth analytical critique of your review; it simply is not within my area of expertise. If you are having problems with your mainframe, or your corporation needs a consultant for their next risk analysis, then I'm your man. All I can do is try to convey what I like about Lamune within the context of the comments in your review. I'm also not an expert on anime (or film/TV in general) by any means, though I have followed anime for some time. Assuming that they survived the last few moves, I probably have some old "Dirty Pair TV" episodes on VHS that are at least 20 years old.
Quote:
Originally Posted by plastic unicorn
However, looking at your 'Now watching' list in your sig... well, I can say that the only thing we have in common is Karin. it should be noted, as actually should go without saying, that my opinion is not a judgement passed upon anyone else... I am more than appreciative that we all have different tastes; my dislike for lamune (as far as i saw) was that the interactions between the two main characters just came accross to me as very forced and as such very false.
Though Karin isnt my favorite anime, I think that it is an appropriate example to suggest how characters might interact with each other more convincingly... there are awkward silences, yes, but they are recognised as such. In Lamune, there are constant silences between lines as if they are trying to find the right page.
Must provide a caveat here! My "now watching" list is just that: what I am currently watching. And I don't necessarily have a high opinion of every one of them. I'm simply too mule-headed by nature to drop a series that I've invested any time with unless it has become so abysmal that I can no longer find a single thing about it that I like. Regarding the relationship between Usui and Karin, I agree with you that their interaction is probably far more typical (in anime, at least) for two high school students than the relationship between Ken and Nanami. But by the same token, I don't find that Ken and Nanami's interaction is forced or false. Instead, to me it seems that they behave like an older couple who have passed beyond the courtship phase and are now simply comfortable in each other's company. Not typical for a high-school couple, perhaps, but that's part of what I find special about this show.
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Old 2006-01-11, 15:25   Link #73
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Thank you Vexx, I'll take those into consideration.
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Old 2006-01-11, 16:26   Link #74
plastic unicorn
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I am starting to feel now that I should have put a bit more effort into my Lamune review. Not that I have changed my mind, but the review I posted was more of a rant than anything terribly pre-meditated. I am not really interested in whether it is 'journalistically complete', but rather the opinions that I voiced with regards to the characters.

However, all of your feedback has helped me achieve my goal when i requested criticism... I now have an understanding of what aspects of the series appeal to people for their respective reasons.

I am very happy to admit that we all have different tastes, of course that goes without saying; but I can now appreciate that there are people with legitimate reasons to appreciate Lamune.

Also, not having spent much time on the AnimeSuki board for a while now, it is nice to read the mature attitudes of the members here... people who have legitimate interests in what is being posted and are willing to discuss them. It is refreshing (for me) !
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Old 2006-01-11, 17:23   Link #75
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plastic unicorn
Also, not having spent much time on the AnimeSuki board for a while now, it is nice to read the mature attitudes of the members here... people who have legitimate interests in what is being posted and are willing to discuss them. It is refreshing (for me) !
Oh, don't be misled ... this forum has its small squadrons of one-liner IM "how dare you dispute my assertions and think "Naruto" is less than perfect!!!" types. ((insert whatever series you don't understand why even deepwater sponges would watch such a thing))

Fundamentally, tastes differ ... which is good or we'd all like the same kind of girl or guy. It is good when we can express *why* we think something is stellar or less than adequate... and listen to what others have to say if they say it in the same considered way. Ditto on Furudanuki posted. One of the reasons I enjoy these forums is to connect with like-minded people since most of *my* peers (check age) make me stark ravers for a lot of reasons not relevant here.

And... I"m starting to spin in my chair waiting for a sub of Lamune ep 7 ..... especially since some other series have closed shop. Catching up on Karin now.

Last edited by Vexx; 2006-01-13 at 00:37.
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Old 2006-01-11, 17:32   Link #76
rooboy
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Tejas
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
Oh, don't be misled ... this forum has its small squadrons of one-liner IM "how dare you dispute my assertions and think "Naruto" is less than perfect!!!" types. ((insert whatever series you don't understand why even deepwater sponges would watch such a thing))

Fundamentally, tastes differ ... which is good are we'd all like the same kind of girl or guy. It is good when we can express *why* we think something is stellar or less than adequate... and listen to what others have to say if they say it in the same considered way. Ditto on Furudanuki posted. One of the reasons I enjoy these forums is to connect with like-minded people since most of *my* peers (check age) make me stark ravers for a lot of reasons not relevant here.

And... I"m starting to spin in my chair waiting for a sub of Lamune ep 7 ..... especially since some other series have closed shop. Catching up on Karin now.
Amen to that. I just don't like college football that much. I can only talk about it for an hour or so a week.

And welcome Plastic Unicorn! It's always nice to meet someone who takes the time to watch and comment, even when they don't like something.

EDIT: Good catch Vexx, that's what I get for trying to post on the last day before release while having to pass hundreds of bits of code through our RMS.

EDIT 2 (to add some on topic noise): I think that a lot of the reason (certainly, by no means, all of the reason) why Lamune is so popular with us is the season it came out in. A lot of shows that are running (or ending) in this season were very frenetic with heaps of melodrama. Lamune is a nice change of pace from that. And really, there were only two choices for that type of show in the season (I know I'm going to forget one): Lamune and Aria.
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Old 2006-01-11, 18:02   Link #77
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rooboy666
Amen to that. I just don't like college football that much. I can only talk about it for an hour or so a week.

And welcome Furudanuki! It's always nice to meet someone who takes the time to watch and comment, even when they don't like something.
Actually it was plastic_unicorn who isn't quite fond of the show... I started watching Lamune on Furudanuki's recommendation as we seem to have a lot of synchronicity in other anime we like.

offtopic "why I'm here" noise
Spoiler:


Lamune episode 7 is out and about.... I'm about 15 minutes from enjoying it....

Last edited by Vexx; 2006-01-13 at 00:34.
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Old 2006-01-13, 03:34   Link #78
Shinobi
Ninjitsu Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Hey just started this series, and really like it. It reminds me a lot of YKK (Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou, a manga and two OVA's), from which my avatar and sig both came before the forum crash. Anyway, I haven't read through most of the thread as I don't want to spoil anything, but I'll catch up with y'all when I reach the current episode. I'm going to have to ask for your recommendations Furudanuki and Vexx when I get back here too!
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Old 2006-01-14, 17:26   Link #79
Furudanuki
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: State of denial
Age: 57
After several false starts, I finally got to watch episode 7! I was beginning to think the episode was cursed - everytime I'd get about 5 minutes into viewing, some "catastrophe" would happen around the house and I'd have to turn the show off and deal with it. But the wife and the kids went to a movie this afternoon, and guess what? Catastrophe free viewing time! Anyway, my comments on the episode...
Spoiler for episode #7:
And, as always, I eagerly await the next episode!
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Old 2006-01-14, 19:45   Link #80
Abbott
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: 常陸大宮市,日本.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiosity
Eh? It's sympathize in the UK as well
Not in the Britain I come from.
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