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Old 2006-01-26, 01:27   Link #201
Keluangman
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For me i agree with NoSanninWa in this , they are travelling through time but they dont know which point(dimension) are they at , even if the past looked the same but it could also lead to a different outcome,
I think the lacrimaa dont give a damn bout the present world is because they believed from their point their world is the truth,the present world is just another posible outcome/past/illusion
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Old 2006-01-26, 06:05   Link #202
MrProphet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NaviX
I beg to differ, time travel is to travel between two points in time while dimension travel is travelling to a parellel dimension that is similar but not the same.
From the point of view of modern physics, it is the same. Time and space are part of the same 4-dimensional continuum. By moving through one of the dimensions, you move through the others.

Quote:
And there is also no fact that the Lacimaans have a time travelling device only a dimension jumping device.
No fact? 8) Sure, only that they've been talking about coming from the future this whole series, but yeah, no fact... 8)

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Old 2006-01-26, 08:24   Link #203
wao
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Spoiler for Just in case:


Keep in mind that going by the main site, Noein's purpose of getting the Dragon's Torque is to "unify all timespaces" (zen jikuu no douitsu-ka wo hakaru tame "Ryuu no Torque" wo nerau).
I dearly want to sit down and piece this all together, but these days I've been more busy than expected.

Finally: if reading the next episodes' synopsis helps, here it is translated to the best of my current ability:

Spoiler:
Although we all know that episode previews can be quite misleading...

As a last note for now: episode 15 featured more Satoru Utsunomiya, he's definitely behind the bit where those
Spoiler:
as well as some others.
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Old 2006-01-26, 09:43   Link #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wao
Spoiler for Just in case:
What you are saying actually resembled the exact definition of the "quantum teleportation".

You know, we've been tossing around this phrase, "quantum teleport this", "quantum teleport that", but truth be told, this is not exactly correct. When the Dragoons are hopping dimensions, they are not quantum teleporting, they are just.. well, I don't know what they are doing, but let's just call it "time-space travel".

Anyway, the exact definition of "quantum teleportation" is:

Let's say we have an Object A and an Object B. Then let us say that for the atomic and quantum purposes, the two objects are completely indistinguishable. There may be some difference between them based on overt examination, but their atomic structure and quatum state are exactly the same.

Now, what quantum teleportation ammounts to is that you exchange the information between Object A and Object B via the quantum entanglement (a process which means that two object that are separated spatially, still share information about themselves almost instantateously). So, when you "quantum teleport", you don't ever change the position of the object, only its information.

Which brings me to wao's point.

Let's say there is a multitude of Karasu's running around in all those dimensions. Now Noein seeks to unite all of them. For the purposes of quantum teleportation, Karasu A is absolutely the same as Karasu B, so Noein can exchange information about them via the quantum channel (another quantum physics term, don't bother with it), but physically, the two Karasus are still remaning the same. The only thing that changes is the object of "Lacrima-Karasu" gains information of all the multitude of other Karasus.

Now, "information" doesn't mean "knowledge", don't confuse these two. Karasu doesn't "know" everything about his counterparts in other dimensions. He only shares "quantum information" with all other Karasus.

And, dun-dun-dun-duuuun, quantum information, unlike regular information, CAN exist in superposition, meaning that it is theoretically possible for Lacrima-Karasu to be the Ultimate Karasu from all the other dimensions combined together. In fact, one quantum state of an object (like Karasu) can exist in superposition of all possible states at once.

Sorry about the overload of information. I can't really explain all these terms here, this is an anime discussion board, not a physics board, so I won't bother. Let's just say, that this is one of the possibilities, and what Satellite is doing may in fact be based on real science.
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Old 2006-01-26, 09:50   Link #205
wao
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OK, I get what you mean. So in terms of quantum physics it all works out because he's got the same quantum characteristics (or something like that?) as all the other Karasus. Except that he doesn't know what is actually happening, he doesn't know what they KNOW but for the sake of quantum physics he's allowed to be there because in that sense he's just all of them together. Though surely I'd think quantum teleportation on such a scale would have some kind of effect on him (or maybe that's why he's gotten so b0rked, because in all the timespaces all the Harukas are suffering, so pain x lots of timespaces = fscked up Yuu = Karasu), then again, I have no clue as to its actual mechanism so meh.

So that means all the other Karasus, once their info has been transferred to Ultimate Karasu, would be destroyed?
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Old 2006-01-26, 10:01   Link #206
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I don't know. It's a very complicated field of knowledge. I am not a professional in it in any way, just an enthusiast. And noone really knows what happens to a quantum teleported object, since all of this is strictly theoretical research at this point in time.

And we don't know much about Noein's intentions and methods. I just had this idea based on what you've said, but in general, we are just speculating based on what we saw in the episode.
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Old 2006-01-26, 11:24   Link #207
orion
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@MrProphet and wao: Does this also explain why that one guy keeps losing body parts everytime that he transfers to Haruka's dimension? His Object B not existing in that dimension?
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Old 2006-01-26, 11:32   Link #208
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Right now I'm more interested as to how the hell can Noein do all that he claims. If Noein is a variation of Karasu why is he so much more powerful. Karasu was defenceless against him.

There was a theory I read somewhere that the time wanderer is also a variation of Yuu.
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Old 2006-01-26, 11:39   Link #209
Splendiferous
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Quote:
OK, I get what you mean. So in terms of quantum physics it all works out because he's got the same quantum characteristics (or something like that?) as all the other Karasus. Except that he doesn't know what is actually happening, he doesn't know what they KNOW but for the sake of quantum physics he's allowed to be there because in that sense he's just all of them together. Though surely I'd think quantum teleportation on such a scale would have some kind of effect on him (or maybe that's why he's gotten so b0rked, because in all the timespaces all the Harukas are suffering, so pain x lots of timespaces = fscked up Yuu = Karasu), then again, I have no clue as to its actual mechanism so meh.

So that means all the other Karasus, once their info has been transferred to Ultimate Karasu, would be destroyed?
This doesn't really solve the issue at all, but:

Remember that Yuu actually seems to sense what Karasu senses a number of times, like for example when a scene is attached to his flashback of Haruka in the Lacryma battery, these scenes of extreme emotion are often tied to some sort of realization back and forth between Karasu and Yuu.

So the anime has been implying for a long time some form of extra-sensory connection between these two characters (naturally we could consider it some sort of spiritual mumbojumbo considering they're supposed to be the same person), but perhaps this is one of the effects of Karasu being a quantum being, and presumably sharing a Quantum state with Yuu in some fashion?

I had actually been wondering for a long time whether as Quantum beings, it meant that the Birds had somehow absorbed their alternate selves in other time-spaces, that just doesn't seem to go anywhere though, since Yuu is certainly Karasu, and certainly alive.
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Old 2006-01-26, 11:41   Link #210
Keluangman
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Noein could be or we can safely assume he is yuu/karasu , however i dont believe the time wanderer is yuu(i am more inclined to believe that he is the ceo 0_o just speculation anyway).well we dont even know wether noein is telling the truth or not , for all we know he could be there trying to trick haruka even destroy all the world/dimension (typical evil type of villain?) or specific dimension/world etc
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Old 2006-01-26, 11:42   Link #211
Splendiferous
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I think I wrote a theory very early on that the time wanderer might be Yuu, and that everyone tied too and trying to help Haruka from other dimensions was Yuu, but the evidence of Dr. Mayuzumi seems very hard to break down when you look at him in comparison to the wanderer.

As for Noein's powers... Well given the way he speaks and is presented, he is being put up as the closest thing the anime might approach to some sort of omnipotent godly being.

However what are the nature of his powers? And why does he have them? I can't see any revealed details yet that would clue us in, outside of his somewhat barbaric intentions with the timespaces...
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Old 2006-01-26, 17:38   Link #212
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This thread has been pointed out to me, and even though I haven't watched the show, (though I might now ) I hope I can at least clarify the physics (being a theoretical physics grad student who has done research into quantum entanglement).

Quantum Teleportation is an interesting phenomena, and seemingly conflicts with lots of physics principles (some of these conflicts have been resolved theoretically, some are still not well understood). The fundamental device goes back to the EPR (Einstein Podolski Rosen (not the "maiden" kind)) "paradox". Basically, say you have spin 0 particle, which decays into two particles, one "spin up" and one "spin down". Say the two decaying particles fly apart from each other in space. Quantum Mechanics tells us that the state of the two particles is actually a "superposition" of two states, one with particle A spin up and particle B spin down, and another state with particle A spin down and particle B spin up.
If one were to think classically (no quantum), you'd say "there's a 50-50 chance that one is up and one is down" but that is not what happens. Until someone actually MEASURES one of the particles, either one could be either (or more acurrately, either one is both).
So how is this teleportation? Basically, once you measure one of the two particles as either spin up or down, the other particle INSTANTANEOUSLY becomes down or up, respectively, no matter how far away it was from the measurement. This seems to violate "locality", and indeed it does, but such non-local effects turn out not to make quantum mechanics an inconsistent theory at all.

So then, how does one use this to teleport? What you do is this.... You have two people, Alice and Bob, who want to teleport a quantum state from one to the other. Before hand, you prepare one of these particle pairs (a so-called maximally entangled state) and send one of them to Bob, and one to Alice. Then, Alice does a quantum operation on her part of the state (her particle) and the state she wishes to send. This "mixes" the information from the particle she wants to send with the entangled state shared between Alice and Bob. Finally, she measures the combined state, and gets some result. This measurement effects Bob's part, because of the process described above. Then all Alice needs to do is to telephone Bob, tell him the result of the experiment, and Bob can before a quantum operation on his state to get the original state Alice had.

So, you see, quantum teleportation is a way of transferring QUANTUM states (i.e. not classical objects). It also requires using standard classical transfering of information. This is why the theory is still consistent, because no classical information can be transmitted faster than light, only "quantum" information, and we have no good interpretation of what quantum information is anyway .

Note that this is not simply theory, researchers at IBM have actually done this:
http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/
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Old 2006-01-26, 17:49   Link #213
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Just to add to the previous post:
Ist actually not that bad. The EPR Paradox was a attempt mainly by einstein to defeat quantum theory by reductio ad absurdum.
Didnt work. Its actually quite obvious.

We had it as a home exercise back in quantum mechanics I, and most could prove it with their 3months of QM education.

The "paradox" only seemingly takes place if you mix relativistic view of the action with classical stuff that isnt allowed anymore (but used as "common sense").
Its not anymore illogically in inconsistant than tunneling, for example.
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Old 2006-01-26, 18:50   Link #214
Kaoru Chujo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarkboy
...[lots of good stuff]...
You were analysing quantum teleportation from a Copenhagen interpretation point of view (plus entanglement), weren't you? How does it look from a more many-worlds point of view? That appears to be the interpretation the show's authors are trying to use. In that context, isn't it more that if the local particle is spin0, then we know that we are in a world where the other particle is spin1? So in a way it's not teleportation but just discovering which world we are in?

I was thinking that the idea of combining all worlds into one (or in this case two) is really kind of slipping from a many-worlds interpretation to thinking more in terms of entanglement, or perhaps in terms of that notion that quantum states cancel each other out until you get the most likely one.

I can't actually think of any theory that would allow a person to combine worlds, but I imagine the show will try to explain it later. And is there really any theory that would make passing from world to world, like we see in Noein, seem possible?

I'm probably missing a lot here, but I just wondered.
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Old 2006-01-26, 19:30   Link #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo
You were analysing quantum teleportation from a Copenhagen interpretation point of view (plus entanglement), weren't you? How does it look from a more many-worlds point of view? That appears to be the interpretation the show's authors are trying to use. In that context, isn't it more that if the local particle is spin0, then we know that we are in a world where the other particle is spin1? So in a way it's not teleportation but just discovering which world we are in?

I was thinking that the idea of combining all worlds into one (or in this case two) is really kind of slipping from a many-worlds interpretation to thinking more in terms of entanglement, or perhaps in terms of that notion that quantum states cancel each other out until you get the most likely one.

I can't actually think of any theory that would allow a person to combine worlds, but I imagine the show will try to explain it later. And is there really any theory that would make passing from world to world, like we see in Noein, seem possible?

I'm probably missing a lot here, but I just wondered.
Sure. Let me clarify some things for people who have no idea what you're talking about:

Quantum Mechanics has a number of different "forumlations" that all predict the same experimental results. The one I talked about in my previous post is called the "Copenhagen" approach, (because it was popularized by Neils Bohr and later Heisenberg). In that interpretation, the state of a particle (quantum state) instantaneously shifts from a superposition to a definite state after one makes a measurement. But there are other formulations that also give the same predictions, such as the many worlds approach. In this setup, everytime you make a measurement, you actually get all possible results, or in other words, there exist universe in which every different result is obtained. So teleportation in that sense would occur by making a measurement, which causes the universe YOU are in to reflect the certain properly revealed by the measurement.
There are other more, reasonable (in my opinion) versions too. A personal favorite is what's called "consistent histories", and was constructed by Hartle and Griffiths (Dr. Hartle's office is across the hall from mine ). This is a bit more technical, but it uses an extra consistancy constraint to kind of retroactively fix a particle's state. (They essentially claim you are "asking the wrong question" and define what "the right questions" see the excellent book on it: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/052...Fencoding=UTF8
)

Now, on to the questions at hand: Two worlds being sort of "superposed" would actually be much more easily explained by String Theory . In String Theory, we have objects called "D-branes" (see my sig) which are essentialy lower dimensional manifolds (lower dimensions than 10, the dimensionality of space-time in superstring theory). It is postulated that our 4 dimensional universe might actually be on a 4-brane moving in 10 d spactime. Not only that, it's even been considered, that the big bang we the result of 2 of these 4-branes colliding with each other, causing quantum perturbative "ripples" on the brane, which then underwent inflation and eventually became matter, stars, galaxies etc.
So, it's not inconcievable that two worlds can exist on two seperate branes, but that these branes might intersect in some places. Normal matter wouldn't be able to transfer from one to the other except at these intersections. Or perhaps you need a special type of gauge particle with interactions in both D-branes, which one could entangle with. Then, even though you yourself don't interact directly with the alternate universe, you can use this special particle connected to both (a string stretching between two branes) to cause some effect on the other world.

To make matters crazier, you could even add in quantum tunnling betweenthe two branes if they were close enough.
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Old 2006-01-26, 19:39   Link #216
NoSanninWa
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I look forward to seeing what you have to say on related topics after you've watched Noein.

I only hope that everyone else in this thread doesn't hate me for asking you to join the coversation.At least, they'll know to blame me if you make their heads explode instead of casting blame hither and yon.
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Old 2006-01-26, 20:06   Link #217
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^ On the contrary. This is some good stuff. Didn't really pay too much attention too all the talk beforehand but some of the stuff that's been posted is quite interesting, if a bit mindboggling . But I'm sure with some reading it will make slightly more sense. On that note and I know this is going off topic but does anyone have any links to some articles on this kind of stuff. Perhaps something for a beginner to this subject? Introductory reading sort of thing?
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Old 2006-01-26, 20:53   Link #218
MrProphet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion
@MrProphet and wao: Does this also explain why that one guy keeps losing body parts everytime that he transfers to Haruka's dimension? His Object B not existing in that dimension?
No, like I said, I don't think that what the Dragoons are doing is "quantum teleportation" or is connected to it directly. Simply because quantum teleportation only exchanges information, not matter. Don't think of it in terms of Star Trek's "Beam me up, Scotty". It's not like that. 8)

Since they are going into their past, there is no Object A for their Object B. Their past selves don't count, because Yuu is not identical to Karasu, or Isami to Fukurou...

So, they must be using some other method. Just basic science-fiction, folks. 8)
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Old 2006-01-27, 07:44   Link #219
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Noein's OST is pretty good stuff, folks.

I especially liked the "Shangri-La" composition, as well as "Future Haruka", "Yuu's theme" and "Haruka's House". "Baron and Tono" also was pretty funny. 8)

All in all, a very good symphonic soundtrack with lots of piano work. Great job by Hikaru Nanase.
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Old 2006-01-27, 07:50   Link #220
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Noein OST is incredible. I can't get enough of it... Especially "Future Haruka" (Mirai no Haruka) and of course Shangri-La.

Last edited by Quajafrie; 2006-01-27 at 08:23.
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