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Old 2006-09-18, 06:49   Link #81
Benoit
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I don't understand the line of thought regarding graphics in this thread.
I do.

-Before and when XBox 360 came out, it was hyped as well because of "ZOMG look at those graffix!!!11".

-M$ promoting HDTV use with their console, and pushing for games to have at least 720p support for higher resolution, thus "ZOMG better graffix!!!1".
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Old 2006-09-18, 11:00   Link #82
Radd
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But practically the same can be said of the Genesis, the SNES, the Saturn, the Playstation, the Nintendo 64, the Dreamcast, the PS2, Xbox...
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Old 2006-09-18, 11:09   Link #83
Radd
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I should ammend that I don't see a console being a 'graphics whore console', unless those graphics come at an unreasonable cost to some other aspect of the console. I can see a few arguments that every Sony system to date has been a graphics whore console in that since they entered the market they've had an issue against 2D games, and a standard quality level in graphics that they have sought to maintain (but even despite this, many not-quite-up-to-snuff titles have graced Sony's systems, making this position difficult to defend).

Or even the PS3, where the price of the graphics comes with a $600 price tag, despite the fact that Sony is refusing to advance in some categories (the Dual Shock design is usable, but hardly an ideal gamepad design), and even gone backwards in others (no rumble feature in this day and age? My DS has a rumble pack!).

The Sega Saturn's considerable graphics horsepower came with a $400 price tag way back in the 90's, and on top of that it was very difficult to program for.

Given Microsoft's place in the market, and what they are offering in respect to what else is out there, I just don't see the 360 being any more of a graphics whore console than any other new console to bolt from the gate, and much less so than a few other notable entries into gaming history.
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Old 2006-09-18, 12:30   Link #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radd
I don't understand the line of thought regarding graphics in this thread. Granted, graphics do not make the game. They can make it more immersive, more appealing, but they are not the core foundation of what makes a game good.

Ever since the first gaming console gave way to the second generation we have seen two basic steps forward that are expected of any incrimental generation.

First, we expect the visuals and audio to improve, the presentation. As new technologies and hardware become both available, and financially feasible, we expect console developers to take advantage of that.

Second, and to a lesser degree, we see changes made to the interface. This usually means more buttons, or minor layout changes.

Microsoft has simply followed this trend as most everyone else has, I don't see that as making the 360 a 'graphics whore system'. Of course, I must admit I'm rather fuzzy on what makes a console a 'hardcore' gaming system.
There's much more to video game evolution than that. What you're speaking of is simply the technical side of the games. However, the gameplay itself must also evolve to keep up with the current day hardware. I don't mean that only the Xbox has stagnated in this area, because truth be told, gameplay evolution has really stagnated pretty much since the PSX/N64 generation on all consoles.

There are obviously some studios and game producers out there that are trying to get us to play our games in new and potentially interesting ways. Look at Supreme Commander, which may be the biggest step in real time strategy since Starcraft. Now there is a game that is taking full advantage of the new hardware available and it isn't simply for eye candy. We're talking using the CPU to its fullest to calculate individual tragectory for projectiles to determine in real time whether bullets actually hit, instead of old school RTSs where all projectiles hit or have a set hit percentage. Being able to coordinate automatically simultaneous attacks with groups of units instead of having the player clumsily attempt to do so manually. These are the types of gameplay evolutions that have been lacking in new console games.

This is one of the reasons why people are keeping a close on the Wii (and prior to that, the DS). They present the potential (<--keyword) to play our games in new, innovative ways. The 360 and PS3 have not yet shown that they are willing to break the current mold of how we play video games. This is why they get ragged on as being for graphic whores. Another thing to keep in mind is that prior to the current generation, the increase in technical power allowed for more gaming options because hardware was finally available that could handle it. The gameplay evolution from the NES to SNES generation was huge because the NES simply couldn't handle the hardware needs of the gameplay for SNES games. The same can be said with each new generation aside from the step up from the PS2/GC/XBox to the PS3/Wii/360. The original PS2/GC/XBox all had the computing power to handle pretty much whatever the programmers wanted to throw at it (gameplay wise).

I guess my point is, is that if you scale down the graphics of a PS3/360 game, you could still have the same game on a PS2 or XBox.
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Old 2006-09-18, 13:24   Link #85
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Well the case now in question is when those two mistwalker games will make it over? I'm not seeing much else in the 360 library I would like to own.

Not really a big fan of the whole XBLA thing, although the only game I would not mind nabbing is Geometry Wars. But I could always go buy that XBLA 39.99 pack for a bunch of XBLA games. Not too big on Castlevania, I have it on PSX already. I still have my PS2, psx memory cards and the actual game, I don't think it deems itself to be bought again.
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Old 2006-09-18, 15:01   Link #86
Radd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Js2756
There's much more to video game evolution than that. What you're speaking of is simply the technical side of the games.
Well, yes. The conversation is about consoles. Consoles are the hardware. Consoles present the technical side, then it is up to the game developers to evolve the gameplay. Gameplay evolution is, by and large, not entirely restrained to technical evolution.

The Nintendo Wii is an exciting anomaly in this regard, this does not make the Xbox360 merely a 'graphics whore' system, and many who label themselves 'hardcore gamers' seem to be those who want more of the same, with better graphics.

Before the Wii, the only major leap in gameplay we have seen in ages was the jump from 2D to 3D worlds. A jump that many people still bungle.

I stand by my last post, until every new console makes Wii-like strides, it seems to me that a graphics-whore console is one where the graphical elements come at a cost to other aspects of the gaming, or where an insane price tag is attached, with the biggest justification being the graphics.
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Old 2006-09-18, 21:20   Link #87
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Originally Posted by Radd
Before the Wii, the only major leap in gameplay we have seen in ages was the jump from 2D to 3D worlds. A jump that many people still bungle.

I stand by my last post, until every new console makes Wii-like strides, it seems to me that a graphics-whore console is one where the graphical elements come at a cost to other aspects of the gaming, or where an insane price tag is attached, with the biggest justification being the graphics.

You seem to dismiss graphics only as flash, which is pretty damn noob and not even worth replying to. I've posted two long posts detailing the importance of graphics in the past, and I'm really not bothered to repeat them.

As for "strides" in Wii gameplay, I would love for the Wii to come out and succeed first before making such ignorant comments.
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Old 2006-09-18, 21:27   Link #88
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Ok I have made a post on this topic awhile back and now I am here to speak on it again now that some months have past. I still stand by what I said last time about not wasting money on it cause its for the graphics and yet my new arugment is now the game play.

Yes most of the game are sports, racing, and fps but lets cut to the chase if this was the PS2 and all these titles were availble u would still buy and play them (like most guys would). The system has not been out for a full year and yet they keep droppin titles on a continues bases.

I do not play on a HDTV and I still enjoy everything the system has to offer, plus I dont have to really go out and buy games when I can play them on XBLA. Also remember when u made friends on XBL and u could only talk to them when u played the same game well now i save mad cash on my cell bill because of the private chat feature.

Now I know I am about to sound like a hypocrite but I will say that M$ will be responsible for a number of divorces this year with their new camara attachment cause u can now put a face to a voice but that will not hender the game play at one bit.

If you can get off the limited amount in genre titles and graphics bashing and actual play the system u will see it holds sumthing for all ages as well as gameplayers.

Thank-You GT: Ayashi no ceres

oops I went off tangent and didnt talk about game play. Yes it still has some frezzes and depended on the online game it may be a nightmare but it still plays great enough to keep your attention for a few hours.
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Old 2006-09-19, 00:41   Link #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uLTraCarL-
Well the case now in question is when those two mistwalker games will make it over? I'm not seeing much else in the 360 library I would like to own.

Not really a big fan of the whole XBLA thing, although the only game I would not mind nabbing is Geometry Wars. But I could always go buy that XBLA 39.99 pack for a bunch of XBLA games. Not too big on Castlevania, I have it on PSX already. I still have my PS2, psx memory cards and the actual game, I don't think it deems itself to be bought again.
well Blue Dragon, should hit NA sometime in '07, not sure on the european release. Lost Odyssey is releasing in Japan in '07, although depending on when the actual date is, it could end up hitting in NA in Q4 of '07, most likely '08 doh. Although they do have an 60min Lost Odyssey demo hitting the xbox marketplace during TGS, or a few months after it. Famitsu is including the demo in their Nov. Issue, so that would probably mean the game is wraping up soon.

Although MS see's these games as being big global projects, so I doubt they will make the 2 regions outside of Japan wait too long to get their hands on it. Im hoping for a KH2 kind of release, where it releases a few months after the Japanese version, well for NA that is. Europe always seems to get shafted with release dates


sounds like 360, just isn't your thing right now, so probably should just wait and see. Although the games from Mistwalker should be worth checking out, considering the star power behind the development.
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Old 2006-09-19, 03:31   Link #90
Radd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arias
You seem to dismiss graphics only as flash, which is pretty damn noob and not even worth replying to. I've posted two long posts detailing the importance of graphics in the past, and I'm really not bothered to repeat them.

As for "strides" in Wii gameplay, I would love for the Wii to come out and succeed first before making such ignorant comments.
This post proves you need to step back from this forum, take some deep breaths, and come back without such an argumentive mentality.

At the very least you need to not only reread my posts, but every post they directly relate to.

The only personal opinion on how important I believe graphics to be was
Quote:
Granted, graphics do not make the game. They can make it more immersive, more appealing, but they are not the core foundation of what makes a game good.
and I stand by that. I do not think they make or break a game, but I do think they add to the experience. I make graphics, it's what I do, so of course I do not believe they're worthless, or "only flash". They're a part of a whole.

My posts were directly related to the comment that the 360 is "a graphics whore console", a comment I fail to understand. But you can go reread them and get that much, all I can do here is repeat myself.

As for my comments about the Wii, I am referring to how Nintendo seems to be pushing what they see as an advancement in gameplay over graphics, something unusual in console history. It is a stride in so much as it has captured the attention of the gaming industry, and the gaming media.

You need to stop looking for arguments where none exist.
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Old 2006-09-19, 06:07   Link #91
Super Ska Master
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Originally Posted by Radd
You're very opinionated, Super Ska Master. That, in itself, is not a bad thing. However, before someone leaps in and declares your comment to be purely imflammatory, why not justify your statement with more reasoning?

I can relate, I do not like the trend towards such expensive consoles. The Saturn was $400 and people cited that as the number 2 reason not to get one. $300 is reasonable, I could even see $350 these days, but $400 is definitely pushing things more than I find comfortable for the console market. Also, I find the Core system, just so MS can boast a $300 console, is misleading, to put it politely.

However, I do know people with a 360, and as a console goes, it's not bad at all. It already has a budding library of games that I find more appealing than the first Xbox, Dead Rising and Chrime Hounds definitely come to mind. It has decent support, and seems to be gaining steam.

And relative to the market, the push in price it's making seems mild compared to the PS3's $600 pricetag.

Let's put price aside, though. It has good games, and will be getting more. The graphics are great, and Live is becoming ever more fantastic. I recently heard that Symphony of the Night would be available on Live Arcade soon.

( http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/723/723305p1.html )

Things seem to be looking up and up for Microsoft, despite a lack of support from the Japanese market.
It has good hardware. It's just too expensive and the game library sucks. Why do I wanna play Madden?
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Old 2006-09-19, 06:32   Link #92
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Xbox probably wont rival PS3 unless it can win more japanese players and developers over. It have some good games but the library is just too small to garner enough attention. Afterall, the japs pump console games like no tomorrow compare to the rest of the world since console games dominate the gamer market there.
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Old 2006-09-19, 10:43   Link #93
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I was a PS2 fanboii (still am I geuss till I get FFXII). The bottom line is XBOX 360 is the best console out there atm. For shooter fans this thing is great. And the games that are coming on it also look good. The price-tag aint all that big imo. It isnt as outragous as people claim it to be. People with a simple job like delivering papers should be able to get it. :O

About the graphics part some people are getting used to the new gfx and it just feels a step down if you look at things Wii can produce.

Honestly people calling Wii the ne advancement in Gameplay its still all so so. Playing with new Joystick feels better while the XBOX 360 looks better. Aint that big of a diffrence tho. Before you say the joypad adds much more tell me which game which actually is good. Not that you have much material seeing it isnt even freaking out yet which makes this discussion useless, but meh w/e.

XBOX live is also a great plus. Playing online can even make a crappy game fun. And it makes a good game great if you catch my drift. =o

PC still for teh fookin win. :O Imo the console which gets the best RPG's/beat em up's/sport games(mainly football)/racers win. Honestly for the rest PC for the fookin win. xD

As for PS3 it gets FFXIII and MGS4 enough reason why its great no? ;O

Altought if you really concider price a factor ofcourse Wii is never a bad choice and its defintly worth its price.
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Old 2006-09-19, 16:52   Link #94
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As much as I love my PS2 and Gamecube, it's delusional to denie Xbox 360s supremacy. I don't own the system yet, but at this points it's already obvious that;

1)It's the most powerful of all the systems.
2)It has the best online service
3)It has the most broad selection of games. <- XBLA, indie games in XNA.
4)It has many of the developers that matters. Rareware, Bungie, Bioware, Lionhead, Mistwalker, and so on...


The Wii is going to be a great budget and niche system. A cool secondary console, but for any person who calls him or herself a gamer, the Wii will not have enough to offer. Reggie is right when he says that convincing people is going to be alot harder than with the DS. It's a totally different beast.



From a japanese point of view, it's also clear that Japanese gamers just don't like american made products. And why should they when they got alternatives like Nintendo and Sony? No need to welcome the forgein stranger.
But Japan is not the main focus anymore.


You even now begin to see Japanese companies doing westeren games. Capcom latests - Resident Evil 4, Dead Rising and their up coming Lost Planet, all appeal to the weasteren marked, and have sold well.
Sony is launching only 100,000 PS3 systems in Japan at launch, but 400,000 in USA. It shows something about priority.

This is because that gaming is losing momentum and strength in japan. The handhelds have stumbled upon the main consoles. On top of that, PSP has been sort of a dissapointment. UMD has failed.



It's my belief that Xbox 360 is the system to own and get. To me, something like Lost Odysee look much more interesting than FF13.

The only thing I really want right now on the PS3 is devil may cry, metal gear and so on. All strong currently going franchises.

This is where the ice fails. Then look at Mass Effect, Too Human, GTA4, Crackdown, Gears of War, Blue Dragon, Viva Pinata - All these new and great innovative franchises, but still maintaining some of the big ones - Team Fortress 2, Halo 3, Wolfenstein 2, Forza 2 and so on.


im going to get a Wii and a DS at some point, but I know that my money and support goes to microsoft. No company has tried harder to innovative. their indy development efforts with XBLA, their new online currency, their revolutionary ways to distribute games, their focus on community created content and so on, is all inspiring. Im impressed with MS. They have come along way since the first clunky xbox which only had Halo to cover its ugly butt.
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Old 2006-09-19, 17:29   Link #95
Super Ska Master
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How can the Wii not be a primary console? It's the only system worth buying, unless you're a fucking loser and you spend all your money on video games instead of having a fucking LIFE. I don't know about all of you, but I have a girlfriend, so I can't be buying $60 video games. You'd have to be a fucking loser if you would spend $400-600 on a system. Anyone who says the Wii is inferior is just ignorant. I'd rather have a system that makes games closer to the real thing than just a press of a button.
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Old 2006-09-19, 17:50   Link #96
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But practically the same can be said of the Genesis, the SNES, the Saturn, the Playstation, the Nintendo 64, the Dreamcast, the PS2, Xbox...
They all pushed better graphics than the last generation, yes. But they didn't push for new display standards like HD, which means getting a new TV, and games to support it. They supported one standard resolution, and that was it (though increasing resolution became possible later on sometimes with an add-on or changing modes).
Quote:
As for PS3 it gets FFXIII and MGS4 enough reason why its great no? ;O
Just two overrated games that nobody has played yet on a real PS3. Everything seen so far was fake.
Quote:
3)It has the most broad selection of games. <- XBLA, indie games in XNA.
That's more of a side thing for which you have to go online. The main line-up is still not diverse. I don't think we have seen indie games yet either.
Quote:
The Wii is going to be a great budget and niche system. A cool secondary console, but for any person who calls him or herself a gamer, the Wii will not have enough to offer.
Think again. I'm a gamer and will only be getting a Wii, which I'm sure will have enough to offer for me. Just because it doesn't focus on the regular control system doesn't make it any less of a gaming console or stop it from getting enough content.
Quote:
but I know that my money and support goes to microsoft. No company has tried harder to innovative
M$ doesn't innovate anything. It buys/mimics things to claim as its own and then passes it off as 'innovative'. Don't be fooled.
Quote:
their indy development efforts with XBLA
The PC has been doing that for years.
Quote:
their new online currency
How is that innovative? You still pay with money, and a lot of things work with points too.
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their revolutionary ways to distribute games
You mean like Steam?
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their focus on community created content
Like the PC has been doing for years?
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Old 2006-09-19, 20:31   Link #97
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Everybody only likes 360 because it's the first system out.
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Old 2006-09-19, 21:21   Link #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Ska Master
How can the Wii not be a primary console? It's the only system worth buying, unless you're a fucking loser and you spend all your money on video games instead of having a fucking LIFE. I don't know about all of you, but I have a girlfriend, so I can't be buying $60 video games. You'd have to be a fucking loser if you would spend $400-600 on a system. Anyone who says the Wii is inferior is just ignorant. I'd rather have a system that makes games closer to the real thing than just a press of a button.
some people spend $5,000 just for some shiny hub caps, other spend it on golf clubs, another on his mistress.

What im saying is that when it comes to a hobby, you will literally spend as much money as you can afford to lose, to have it if you can.

Don't underestimate the "loser" with money to spend, on something they enjoy.

Just because it seems rediculous to part with that amount to you, someone who has a deeper passion will see it as money well spent.

Only reason I have to buy a console is the QUALITY of the games they have, Some has caught my eye, but so far none of them has interested me, to the point that I must own it.

Price is another factor, price can easily sway someone, if they see a reasonably priced console with a game that will mildy interest them, but did not initially force them to buy a console, the appeal will be more then likely to consider buying.

That is why the Wii will be more or less a better bet for me to be getting.

i haven't touched an nintendo hardware for 18yrs, but the low price of the DS lite, and New Super Mario Bros. convinced me, and now im hooked by the vast Nintendo games catalogue.

As someone mentioned graphis only make 1/3 of a game, and no matter how realistic it will become, if the other 2/3 don't match up it's not gonna sell, however if 2/3's of a game is good then you got yourself a nice little earner, and more games will be sold and influence the sales of that hardware.

Until Microsoft realise this, and in some respect Sony, they are going to continue to make a loss on all there future products, unilke nintendo who has make a profit on every major release, be it hardware or software.

If you want a secure long term investment, grab some Nintendo stock. If you want to risk for a short term initial earner go Microsoft, or if you wish to cash on a substained short-term but higher bet, go Sony.

either way, it's going to be interesting,

*hops over to his mates house to play Chrome Hound*
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Old 2006-09-20, 00:12   Link #99
Lebron
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Well the real console war will begin with all 3 systems hit the $200 mark, and have a well established library of games.

I'm still on the ropes on getting a Wii, its going to be $250 over here come release. Plus you add the fact that since it comes with Wii Sports, you pretty much have to buy and extra conroller, which is $60, your now paying $300+ for it. Or if you skip the controller,and decide to get Zelda or another game to conicide with Sports your pushing $300+ aswell. Right now I don't see the Wii being worth shelling out that much cash for, so I may just hold on off. I still have my GC somewhere so I'll just play Zelda on that, and just sport my 360 for now. I would buy a PS3 at launch, but I really hate buying First Gen Sony or MS products. They just seem to be buggy as hell, and don't really get the kinks knocked out till about a year later
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Old 2006-09-20, 00:52   Link #100
Radd
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Originally Posted by Lebron
Well the real console war will begin with all 3 systems hit the $200 mark, and have a well established library of games.
With the 360 still at $400, and the PS3 launching at $600, we will be in the endgame of this generation bu the time all three systems hit $200. Heck, we might be in the middle of the generation after the Wii, PS3, and 360!
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