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Old 2005-12-27, 00:02   Link #81
SnakeLegend
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just know that Rin isn't Rin but the very same old him.
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Old 2006-02-14, 00:27   Link #82
willx
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Well, I posted this elsewhere when confronted with my opinions about Rin, so here it is again!
-

Mm.. The best I can say is, that I don't think its fair that people compare Rin from the anime to the "Rin" in the game, since inactuality, there really isn't a "Rin" in the game at all.. just a psuedo "Rin" that we take control of..

As for all the protests that he was indecisive about love, they addressed that at the beginning of the anime, when Midoriba said: "What are you gonna do, unofficially declare that you want everyone to stay together? No one will accept that kind of irresponsible attitude.." -

What Midoriba said is true. But it is also very wrong. All of these girls loved Rin. Does that mean he has a responsibility to all of them? Not at all. A person can only live for their own happiness, if they push him for an answer, then he should give one, but a person only has so much power.. Does that mean Sia should've kept chasing Rin on? Maybe, but the problem with her was she was never true to herself, maybe her two selves.. but nonetheless..

He did his best to try to make everyone happy, I like him alot more than other male lead characters, unlike them, he's not a wimp.. In the end, no apologies needed to be made.. he had no obligation to love anyone but the one whom he chose to love.

And he loved Asa-sempai, more than anything, more than his own life, more than the pain that he would bring upon himself and all the girls he would have to leave behind.
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Old 2006-02-14, 01:00   Link #83
Vexx
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I think most people would have more okay with Rin if the last few episodes had been more effectively written. The character motivations were just kind of broken WHEN compared to the character behaviors established earlier in the series. My comment was it was as if Rin and Asa had had their brains extracted and replaced with oatmeal.... just poor writing made more obvious by the really strong writing during the Kaede arc (until they had her just whimper off under the bridge with Asa).

Asa was a spiffy character and I'm surprised more Asa fans aren't pissed by the way the writers treated her motivations for the choices she made.

Rin started the series off being highly articulate and witty... as the series progressed, it seemed like sometimes his main dialog was to utter the name of whatever female was in the area. Then came his and Asa's neglect of Kaede during her arc, a friend they had both cared for for so long... *this* was potentially good Shakespearean drama (sometimes good people do bad things) but then you could hear the brakes squealing as they ended Kaede's arc.... I congratulate the VAs for Asa and Kaede for doing reasonably well with their scene with Asa admitting she was a monster for being the "other woman" while Kaede just collapsed.
Then Asa's reasoning for not using magic just reeked lameness .. this was not the Asa they had developed "I won't use magic and die so I won't have to see my mother cry"??????? And everyone telling Rin - "you're the only one who can save Asa" ... we'll hope they meant talk some sense into her because otherwise Kareha and Ama were suggesting he suicide to get Asa's attention.
I can think of 10 lines of dialog and no change to animation that would have fixed virtually all these problems -- so I have to blame writer ineptitude.

The last ep last half ...... I sense some vain attempt to re-establish a "status quo" for future OVAs ... to chase Rin more???? Unless Kareha can convince Asa that polygamy is cool ... it really is unfair to all the characters.
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Old 2006-02-14, 07:17   Link #84
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
I think most people would have more okay with Rin if the last few episodes had been more effectively written. The character motivations were just kind of broken WHEN compared to the character behaviors established earlier in the series. My comment was it was as if Rin and Asa had had their brains extracted and replaced with oatmeal.... just poor writing made more obvious by the really strong writing during the Kaede arc (until they had her just whimper off under the bridge with Asa).

Asa was a spiffy character and I'm surprised more Asa fans aren't pissed by the way the writers treated her motivations for the choices she made.
I actually quite disagree. Completely.
If you analyse every single one of the characters, they each present dramatic character flaws and in fact, all of them act in ways that contradict what their intentions are seemingly trying to accomplish.

And to make Asa not completely perfect, which she would be otherwise, they gave her a character flaw. A traumatic incident that has been burned into her psyche. I mean, Kaede is in utter denial about her own situation, and utters "I live for X" as a mantra. Sia has multiple personalities in her body, which she should really go to a psych for or take some meds. And Nerine doesn't even actually know Rin, and pretended to be someone she's not. All flawed individuals, and that is what makes them "human"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
Rin started the series off being highly articulate and witty... as the series progressed, it seemed like sometimes his main dialog was to utter the name of whatever female was in the area. Then came his and Asa's neglect of Kaede during her arc, a friend they had both cared for for so long... *this* was potentially good Shakespearean drama (sometimes good people do bad things) but then you could hear the brakes squealing as they ended Kaede's arc.... I congratulate the VAs for Asa and Kaede for doing reasonably well with their scene with Asa admitting she was a monster for being the "other woman" while Kaede just collapsed.
Althought I wouldn't agree with him being articulate and witty, I am more impressed with the realism of the fact that they were written to be blind to Kaede's plight. Imagine the ridiculousness of a conversation between Asa & Rin otherwise?

A: Sorry Rin, love ya lots, always been there for you in the background, always picked you up when you needed it and pushed you to move forward.. but.. I can't be with you
R: Why, why.. I finally realize and finally chose by myself.. the person I love more than anything, and want to be with more than anyone.. I'm being true to myself
A: Well.. cause I know Kaede loves you, I can't get into the middle of that..
R: Wait a minute.. what am I? A potato.. You can't just pass me onto someone, you can't make me love someone else..

And so on and so forth in perpetuity, the rest of the series might as well have been changed to revolve around that conflict, and eventually have Kaede withdraw due to interference, which is if I recall some other love drama plots go.

As for Kaede, if you watch her through the first few episodes, appears to depict the classic love interest IE. Aoi from Ai Yori Aoishi, but the anime plows a hole right through it. Living your life for someone else is impossible. And as all flawed structures eventually do, she crumbles. This theme about the impossibility of living for others happiness appears again and again, thrust into Rin's face when Kaede goes berserk. As the series progressed, the way the writers wrote her, it was obvious Kaede was an unstable human being reeking of denial and incapable of a close personal relationship. Now I don't say this to anger anyone, but to bring this back on topic is it not unfair to resent a character for acting "normally" and "selfishly" as all humans do, because they upset a character that is written to be emotionally unbalanced?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
Then Asa's reasoning for not using magic just reeked lameness .. this was not the Asa they had developed "I won't use magic and die so I won't have to see my mother cry"??????? And everyone telling Rin - "you're the only one who can save Asa" ... we'll hope they meant talk some sense into her because otherwise Kareha and Ama were suggesting he suicide to get Asa's attention.
I can think of 10 lines of dialog and no change to animation that would have fixed virtually all these problems -- so I have to blame writer ineptitude.

The last ep last half ...... I sense some vain attempt to re-establish a "status quo" for future OVAs ... to chase Rin more???? Unless Kareha can convince Asa that polygamy is cool ... it really is unfair to all the characters.
This part I agree with, although see my previous reply for the same general answer. The Asa that is emotionally well adjusted, cares for Rin and was willing to stay in the background through all the love-interest choosing would not be one that would want to cause him pain. But, as I said, a traumatic incident during her childhood where she blames herself for causing someone pain, and thus acts irrational and harbors deviant like thoughts in her mind that blind her from what is infront of her, namely a boy asking a girl to love him. Does this sound somewhat familiar?

And also, as a simple creative writing statement, there really wouldn't have been any backstory for Asa, if it played out like this:
A: "I'm gonna die if I don't use magic."
R: "So use it! For me! I can't live without you!"
and she simply went: "Oh, okay. *ZAPO!*"

As for criticizing the rest of the cast about telling Rin to save her.. it's the same as telling him to "reach" her, as she (her heart) is untouchable to the rest of them. Not too many people complained when Rin went to see Rimu-chan, even though realistically she could've died the second she saw him due to emotional overload.

And finally..
As for the last episode, yes, the writers did something that was simply akin to fanservice. Blame the writers but it has nothing to do with Rin, in fact he acts all awkward when Kaede says Asa gave her permission to continue loving him.

PS: As for the last episode being "unfair" to the remaining single female cast.. Well, uhh.. Rin has no obligation to return feelings to anyone. If they choose to continue loving him, then they can do so. He made it clear when he made his choice to be with Asa. His responsibility is finished. If there's anyone to blame, blame the girls themselves for not being able to move on. But doing so, would simply be blaming them for being too human..

PPS: I initially intended to give my 2 cents, but it seems like I have thrown a gold brick into the mix instead. If Vexx wants to discuss it more, or anyone else for this matter, feel free to PM me, I will likely not respond at length again due to fear of spamming the board
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Old 2006-02-14, 07:34   Link #85
Sian
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well ... IMO Kareha allready pretty much convinced her ... in ep 22 (i think it was ... where Kareha let out that it was Rin she loved as well) Asa was like "no way ... never going to happen" ... whereas in the end of ep 24 she is like "hmm ... maybe it shouldn't be a no-no anyway"
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Old 2006-02-14, 08:51   Link #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx
snip
I advice you to read through the previous threads for all the counterarguments you might want. After all the only people who keep using the human nature argument are mostly AAA. That particular arguments has been countered and the synopsis of this is "depends on what you want to call human and what a human should be capable of doing". I'll just copy paste a part of my own reply to this matter from some months ago about why human nature argument is INVALID.

Quote:
Originally Posted by npal
Ok, Human nature argument is getting a bit tiring on this forum. Most people who support the Rin-Asa resolution, when faced with opposing arguments throw the human nature argument. And it all comes down to "what is human"? And THAT'S totally up to the speaker's interpretation. We have examples of truly paragon humans as we have examples of truly malicious humans. Where does human stand? Is it on one end? Is it on the other? Is it in the middle? Is it in the psychological norm? Is it in the biological norm? That's purely interpretation of the speaker, because valid arguments can be made for ANYTHING regarding mankind. So it's best to just drop the human nature argument.

About the whole psychology reference.
i)I don't know where you come from, but I am a psychologist. But it's not like I agree with most behavior norms, just because there's been research. Every person has a unique background and is unique himself, and it is my right as a psychologist to disregard norms and look at each individual or patient differently as far as behavior norms are concerned. Having said that, I also discredit the whole human nature argument if it's not based on biological data. And even then, there's the cortex, that can overrule a good amount of instinct behaviors in favor for something else. It's just a matter of how many of those each one of us BELIEVES CAN or SHOULD the brain cortex disregard. And that's up to the speaker to say, most of the time.
ii) Ok, let's say humans can be excused for not being perfect. Well, of course, we try but we're far from it (if we try at all) . Does that make it right when humans err? Of course not! Is it human? Well, yes, probably, we all make mistakes... Do we atone for them? NO. And the main reason is: human nature agreement. We just accept that we err, nothing will change that, and everyone errs, and it's better to be on top than to be wronged. Ok, I'm a visionary, so sue me But that's what I believe. Just because it's human to err doesn't mean I have the RIGHT to err. No, no one gave me the right to err, and no one gave me the right to err against other people. But I can see help for my errors, and I can seek to make up for my errors. And THAT'S human, too, and that's the better part of humanity. And we should look up to THAT part instead of preaching that error is our right. If that was the case, I'd have abandoned my science long ago. Psychology tends people who err. People who wrong others, people who wrong themselves, people who are wronged by others. And psychology wants to make people better, not just functional. But that's again my view of my science, and everyone is free to disagree with that.
And that's all for the general human argument thing.

Second, you don't do much by calling a character unstable. Since you've registerd all characters flaws as having the same weight (apparently), I can call Asa equally mentally unstable, no? And if you say that Asa's flaw is the least of evils, I say that her flaw is too weak in its core to even be considered realistic.

For why I blame Rin and Asa (and I can do it rightly so) for acting like they did towards Kaede ("normally" and selfishly" as all humans do), you are free to re-read the above post.

For why I blame Rin for everything and not the girls, you are free to re-read the above post.

I never said anywhere that his actions were not believable or realistic. I said that he is selfish, inconsiderate, thick as brick, a liar, a hypocrite, hiding behind his self-imposed martyrdom and his self-delusion that he is nice to everyone and will help everyone, when in reality he helps just himself every time.

About the magic part, climax-wise, it had to have SOME sort of drama, but as my friend, Vexx said, the reasoning behind Asa's denial to use magic was weak, her "flaw", as you call it, was not deeply rooted or of the same psychological magnitude as Kaede's was and it failed miserably against this too-apparent-to-be-ignored truth : If indeed Ama would be sad if Asa used magic, Ama would be also sad if Asa died, so in essence, Ama would have cried no matter the outcome. Even in Asa's head, that should be fairly obvious. So, let's say that she feels so guilty that she willingly denies to use magic to save her life because she believes she did something horrible to Ama. If her guilt were so great, shouldn't she be mad at Rin for forcing her to use magic? He denied her the chance to be free from this huge guilt of hers by choosing death, and now she's safe and she won't die, so he has effectively magnified her guilt. If this WERE Asa's irrational flaw, she should have jumped off the cliff the next minute. The fact that EVERYTHING is ok after Asa saves Rin damns her "flaw" as being superficial and weak, because the REASON for its appearance is STILL THERE, and is weighs heavier now that she is no longer in danger.

I believe that's all, yet again.
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Old 2006-02-14, 11:39   Link #87
Furudanuki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npal
<text deleted>I never said anywhere that his actions were not believable or realistic. I said that he is selfish, inconsiderate, thick as brick, a liar, a hypocrite, hiding behind his self-imposed martyrdom and his self-delusion that he is nice to everyone and will help everyone, when in reality he helps just himself every time.
I am going to hate myself for even looking at this can of worms again, let alone opening it. But, just a couple of details that I can't let slide by without comment.

I think that the phrase "self-imposed martyrdom" is far more applicable to Kaede than to Rin. Or, for that matter, to Nerine in the first half of the series before the truth about Lycoris came out. And as for "he helps just himself every time", I think that the current version of Primula - the one who has emotions and isn't back in Makai being experimented upon - might disagree with you.
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Old 2006-02-14, 11:59   Link #88
npal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Furudanuki
I think that the phrase "self-imposed martyrdom" is far more applicable to Kaede than to Rin. Or, for that matter, to Nerine in the first half of the series before the truth about Lycoris came out. And as for "he helps just himself every time", I think that the current version of Primula - the one who has emotions and isn't back in Makai being experimented upon - might disagree with you.
Eh, well Kaede on one hand felt guilty because she was torturing Rin for something that wasn't his fault (he wasn't responsible for her mother's death), so she felt she had to atone for that. Rin on the other hand did what he did, accepted the penalty willingly, and yet people support Rin and damn Kaede because he had to suffer something he brought upon himself with his own free will. What you call "self-imposed martyrdom" for Kaede, I call "penance of guilt", and Kaede doesn't regret that, while apparently Rin has never forgotten his maltreatment, which made matters worse for Kaede, cause she thought she had to try harder.

I don't understand the comment about Nerine. I will need some clarification.

The current version of Primula is a product of Asa, Lycoris and Kaede. Lycoris for telling Primula about Rin and everything that followed, Asa for pushing Rin to go and get Primula back when he himself sent her there (even if the cause was right) and Kaede for always tending to her as if she were her daughter. Rin is just, what, her love interest? Which is still mainly Lycoris' influence on Primula. The only good thing Rin did on his own was get her a nekodoll. Other than that, he did nothing good for any of the girls (excluding Asa). Primula escaping from Makai is ASA'S victory (when she was still a lovable character) and Primula gaining emotions and a family was KAEDE'S victory. Nothing regarding Primula is Rin's to claim.
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Old 2006-02-14, 15:34   Link #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npal
Eh, well Kaede on one hand felt guilty because she was torturing Rin for something that wasn't his fault (he wasn't responsible for her mother's death), so she felt she had to atone for that. Rin on the other hand did what he did, accepted the penalty willingly, and yet people support Rin and damn Kaede because he had to suffer something he brought upon himself with his own free will. What you call "self-imposed martyrdom" for Kaede, I call "penance of guilt", and Kaede doesn't regret that, while apparently Rin has never forgotten his maltreatment, which made matters worse for Kaede, cause she thought she had to try harder.

I don't understand the comment about Nerine. I will need some clarification.

The current version of Primula is a product of Asa, Lycoris and Kaede. Lycoris for telling Primula about Rin and everything that followed, Asa for pushing Rin to go and get Primula back when he himself sent her there (even if the cause was right) and Kaede for always tending to her as if she were her daughter. Rin is just, what, her love interest? Which is still mainly Lycoris' influence on Primula. The only good thing Rin did on his own was get her a nekodoll. Other than that, he did nothing good for any of the girls (excluding Asa). Primula escaping from Makai is ASA'S victory (when she was still a lovable character) and Primula gaining emotions and a family was KAEDE'S victory. Nothing regarding Primula is Rin's to claim.
"Self-imposed martyrdom", "penance of guilt" - you can call it whatever you want. But we are still talking about something a person does of their own free will that goes strongly against their own best interests, and it is still more applicable to Kaede than Rin. It was part of Rin's makeup as a character, but it was not a core defining trait. For Kaede, on the other had, it was the central trait around which the entire character was constructed. And I fail to see how saying this is supporting Rin or damning Kaede in any way; it is merely stating the mindset template used to govern the character's actions in the series.

Regarding my inclusion of Nerine, the entire reason she came to the human realm to be with Rin in the first place was because of the debt she felt that she owed to Lycoris. She decided that because of that debt she would put aside her own dreams so that she could try to make Lycoris' dream come true in her stead. Was that a noble thing to do? I think so. But Nerine was not compelled to do this by another person or an external force; the choice was entirely hers to make. Thus the link with Kaede and "self-imposed martyrdom". Nerine and Kaede both made their choices of their own free will. And I am no more damning Nerine for it than I was Kaede.

As for nothing about Primula being Rin's to claim, I suggest you go back and watch episode #15 again. Rin was the one that Primula responded to, much to the amazement of the two kings and the head researcher. He broke the promise he made to stand aside and let them reset Primula's emotions immediately if she lost control (note that I never tried to refute your earlier statement calling Rin a "liar"). He then risked his life (and everyone else's too - note that I am not arguing that he shows wisdom here) to keep reaching out to her. And afterward, it was Rin who confronted the head researcher when he wanted to keep Primula in the lab for experimentation. He was the one who immediately cut the man off and said he was taking Primula home. Nerine, Sia and Kaede then moved in behind Rin to show the two kings that they supported him. So yes, if for no other reason than that I do think that Rin deserves a little credit for the Primula we see in the second half of episode #24.
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Old 2006-02-14, 16:19   Link #90
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There are a lot of words up there from willx ... but the fundamental problem fo me is that Asa's motivation for not using magic was just paper thin and, I believe, the result of massively poor writing. Compared with, say, Sia, Nerine's or Kaede's better defined motivations it looked like they'd brought in a hack to write the most important arc of the story.

I'm not as extreme about Rin as npal is but if you compare Rin's dialog in the first half of the series to the last half, there's a serious degradation ... also pointing to poor writing skills ....

You have to understand there isn't just one writer involved in a series. There are a team of writers under an overall story arc manager. Small writer groups get assigned a set of episodes ... in this case (and this has gotten press in Japan), the Kaede arc got handed to a rather skillful writer who took the story in a lot more powerful direction (some miscommunications between him and the manager). The brakes applied in ep 21 are pretty clear. Whomever got assigned the arc of ep 22-end was not a premier writer.... don't get me wrong, I *like* Asa, but her "character flaw" was poorly implemented. You can't get past how stupid "I won't use magic because my mother cried" but I guess its alright if I die because I won't have to see my mother cry again ... sounds. Thats so "not-Asa" as to be ludicrous. The other girl's flaws were all compatible with their personalities. Furu explained them adequately so I won't be redundant.

A more "Asa-like" flaw would have been her refusing to use magic because of some incident where she tried to use it once as a young child to help her mother and almost killed her mother because she couldn't control it. As a result, she's in total denial about having any demon roots and refuses to even admit she's a magic bomb. That would require zero change to animation.. just new dialog.

I think Asa and Rin's neglect of Kaede in their hot-puppy-love could have made for very powerful story telling (and did for a while) but having the buildup whimper off into nothingness under the bridge and the interactions between Rin, Kaede, and Asa afterwards really undermined the whole arc and frankly left Kaede with no closure. Plus... I find the *level* of neglect pretty extreme for Asa (I can see why Rin might get overfocused and forget to mitigate Kaede's feelings... lots of baggage between them ... but I found it out-of-character for Asa not to even be concerned about Kaede).

And the last half of the last ep.... was so disconnected from all the other arcs I think the writers might have been better off leaving the whole series as a lighthearted comedy. The most important thing writers must do is to be true to their characters once they define them. Characters can evolve but the changes must have continuity or rationale the reader can follow, or the "suspension of disbelief" required for fiction is broken. Writing 101.
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Last edited by Vexx; 2006-02-14 at 16:32.
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Old 2006-02-14, 16:47   Link #91
npal
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OK, let's see.

About the first part : I think it's in one's best interests, if he feels he has wronged someone to try everything in his power and try to make up for it. Plus, if we go too far, that core defining trait of Rin's forced Kaede into a certain character development. I can as well take all responsibility for her actions and her character development by putting the blame on Rin. Rin was the one to shape Kaede's character the way he did, and if Kaede ever did something wrong, that's Rin's fault. The whole issue was forced on Kaede by Rin's actions. Then, of course, it comes down to the question : "Who is responsible, the one who acts or the one who reacts?" And it is my belief that the one who acts should be held responsible for the reaction he causes. If people think otherwise, they can as well condemn their children whenever they fail.

I can understand Nerine's issue, as you've put it. The only difference I see is the following : I don't think Nerine thinks any less of Lycoris than before. It is my belief that Nerine really liked Lycoris and chose to make Lycoris' dreams come true instead of her own. Meaning that, Nerine doesn't seem to despise Lycoris' for the whole Rin deal, even if it she may suffer for that. On the other hand, Rin did what he did, suffered for it, and when his former torturer became his caretaker, he didn't credit her. Ever. And we have the total negligence near the end of the series, which makes me believe that Rin never forgave Kaede for what she did, even if he was the one to bring this whole thing on his head. The crap that Rin tells Kaede in ep 21 is as farfetched as it can be. To me, that's a fundamental difference between Nerine and Rin. Rin seems to think that what he done is enough, so he is pleased with how he handled the situation and owes Kaede nothing (or maybe her rightful share of misery for what he did to him). At least, that's what I get from his attitude towards her. It's like he just puts up with her, which nullifies whatever noble he may have done (which is doubtful anyway).

About ep 15, my memory is still good, I'm still young, I can recall what happened. And I still support my argument that in reality it was Asa who saves Primula, in essence, using Rin's influence, which is based on Lycoris, as a handy tool to pull that. It was Asa who made Rin make up his mind, it was Asa who made Rin break his promise and risk his life for Primula. And in the end, Lycoris/Nerine saved the day by using her power. The way I see Rin in the particular situation is in the form of a tool. It could have been ANYONE else, as long as i) Lycoris told Primula about X and ii) X sent Primula to be cured and iii) Asa managed to make X go get Primula back. Put whoever who want in that equation, the result is the same. X (Rin), in this case, is just a TOOL in the hands of a wiser individual, that was Asa (before episode 19). The situation would have been completely different if X had decided to get Primula without Asa's intervention OR chose to keep Primula at home in the first place. And this sticks again to my belief that it's the one that acts that must be held responsible for the outcome, good or bad. Of course, if someone thinks that the reaction is the important part, then of course Rin is such a nice individual...But I still think it was one of Asa's finest moments. Too bad they corrupted her character afterwards.

Edit : Oh yeah, and I agree with the above post. Mine took to long to write so I didn't see the above.
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Old 2006-02-14, 18:19   Link #92
Furudanuki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npal
<text deleted> Then, of course, it comes down to the question : "Who is responsible, the one who acts or the one who reacts?" And it is my belief that the one who acts should be held responsible for the reaction he causes. If people think otherwise, they can as well condemn their children whenever they fail.
So you are contending that anytime a person does something, they are responsible for any reaction that may occur, even if that reaction is irrational or completely out of proportion to the orginal action? For example: if I am in the grocery store and buy the last package of squid jerky, then someone runs up to me in the checkout line and screams "You took the last pack!" and hits me with a can of beans, you would argue that I am responsible for the attack? No, I don't think so. Holding someone unaccountable for their reaction to an act, no matter how extreme that reaction may be, sounds like a one-way ticket to anarchy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by npal
I can understand Nerine's issue, as you've put it. The only difference I see is the following : I don't think Nerine thinks any less of Lycoris than before. It is my belief that Nerine really liked Lycoris and chose to make Lycoris' dreams come true instead of her own. Meaning that, Nerine doesn't seem to despise Lycoris' for the whole Rin deal, even if it she may suffer for that. On the other hand, Rin did what he did, suffered for it, and when his former torturer became his caretaker, he didn't credit her.
I agree with you about the feelings that Nerine had for Lycoris. But I wasn't trying to make a comparison between her situation and Rin's; the comparison was between her situation and Kaede's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by npal
About ep 15, my memory is still good, I'm still young, I can recall what happened. And I still support my argument that in reality it was Asa who saves Primula, in essence, using Rin's influence, which is based on Lycoris, as a handy tool to pull that.
Yes, Asa did play an important part, but I'm sorry, I do not see Rin as being the unwitting tool you make him out to be. And she could not have influenced him to break his promise about resetting Primula's emotions because that promise was not made until after Rin and company met Eustoma and Forbesii in Makai. Be that as it may, your views on this point and mine are so far apart that, in the interest of civility, we are simply going to have to agree to disagree.

And I have to go pick up my kids from school, so that is probably it for today.
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Old 2006-02-14, 18:52   Link #93
npal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Furudanuki
So you are contending that anytime a person does something, they are responsible for any reaction that may occur, even if that reaction is irrational or completely out of proportion to the orginal action? For example: if I am in the grocery store and buy the last package of squid jerky, then someone runs up to me in the checkout line and screams "You took the last pack!" and hits me with a can of beans, you would argue that I am responsible for the attack? No, I don't think so. Holding someone unaccountable for their reaction to an act, no matter how extreme that reaction may be, sounds like a one-way ticket to anarchy.
I agree with you about the feelings that Nerine had for Lycoris. But I wasn't trying to make a comparison between her situation and Rin's; the comparison was between her situation and Kaede's.

Yes, Asa did play an important part, but I'm sorry, I do not see Rin as being the unwitting tool you make him out to be. And she could not have influenced him to break his promise about resetting Primula's emotions because that promise was not made until after Rin and company met Eustoma and Forbesii in Makai. Be that as it may, your views on this point and mine are so far apart that, in the interest of civility, we are simply going to have to agree to disagree.
1: Not really, I'd hold the one that turned that person into a lunatic much more responsible for the attack. The fault would have been yours though if you knew the guy was mentally unstable but you chose to take the squid jerky. You have missed the forest methinks. My rule always applies, you just have to take some variants into consideration and reach the ultimate action. Or I'll blame the reaction, and blame the children for going berserk on people when they are getting beaten by their parents everyday, no? Or to make it clearer, in your example, should I blame the guy who attacked you and not the one that turned this guy into an irrationally aggressive individual? If your children do something wrong, you will blame THEM?

2: Well, I was comparing them. Nerine's and Kaede's comparison don't match that well, for reasons I've detailed. Rin was free to decide, even more free than Nerine. Kaede had severe guilt issues, Nerine had probably guilt issues to regarding Lycoris' death but Rin... Rin had no guilt for anything, he was totally free to do whatever he wanted. If there's anyone that can be blame wholeheartedly for his actions, it's Rin.

3: Well, you know... Rin can LIE (see Kaede). Did he ever keep a promise? His promises are as empty as his head. He just promised that so he would be allowed to see Primula. After all, Asa was pretty clear to me, she was telling him to go get her back. Rin just used his innate lying ability to that end. And of course, he defended that end. After all, Asa was pretty convincing. Why should I credit Rin for Primula's rescue then? No reason at all. And there's no evidence that can support that Rin didn't lie in this situation. After all, he lied for a very serious matter in the past to attain a goal (keep Kaede alive or whatever). He just did it again.
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Old 2006-02-14, 21:28   Link #94
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so many paragraphs....*dizzy*...not again...
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Old 2006-02-15, 00:01   Link #95
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I agree that Rin is very generic, and suffers from the usual male harem lead symptoms -

*confused or oblivious about things going on around him until after something big happens.
*has girls popping out of nowhere, he met during childhood
*often overlooks the female desperately most in love with him, right under his nose.
*indecisive but when he does finally make a choice, it only affects the currect situation (short term, very vague future)

but i've only seen a couple harem and harem'ish type series (including Elfen Lied, Mahoraba, Ai Yori Oshi). they are most evident in those

Overall rin is a good guy. Cares about everyone, is friendly, and well balanced.



as for Rin picking Asa...
I really dont believe in a relationship based on puppylove & playfulness. Will & devotion is so much more valuable, which is which I want to kick Rin in the mouth for turning away Kaede
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Old 2006-02-15, 14:46   Link #96
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by npal
1: Not really, I'd hold the one that turned that person into a lunatic much more responsible for the attack. The fault would have been yours though if you knew the guy was mentally unstable but you chose to take the squid jerky. You have missed the forest methinks. My rule always applies, you just have to take some variants into consideration and reach the ultimate action. Or I'll blame the reaction, and blame the children for going berserk on people when they are getting beaten by their parents everyday, no? Or to make it clearer, in your example, should I blame the guy who attacked you and not the one that turned this guy into an irrationally aggressive individual? If your children do something wrong, you will blame THEM?
I have noticed that you cited that psychology based post as an answer to all of my statements on human nature. I would like you to please review those yourself again in response to your own above statement. Indeed, humans are flawed, but because of those flaws does not mean they cannot be held responsible. Very well, if you can apply them to Rin, please also apply them to Kaede.

1. A theory that ALWAYS applies, is not a theory at all. It lacks any reasonable value as it is not open to being disproved. It can always be possible to alter auxilary hypotheses to make the main hypothesis true. See Popper and critiques by the logical positivists.

2. As for individuals not being responsible for their actions, see Kantz's theory of justice. To take away an individual's "responsibility" for their actions, is to take away a person's free will. If a dog does something bad, you "train" it to do otherwise, because it is not human, it is something sub-human, it is a creature of pure habit.

3. As for your specific example, firstly, you altered Furundanuki's scenario into one where the person is considered a lunatic. Which suggests they are mentally unstable and are afflicted by some sort of psychosis and are unable to control their actions, then you imply that someone caused this to occur on them. Okay.. Firstly, you don't "make" lunatics. Secondly, your example about children is flawed due to the nature of children's mental developmental stages.

Going back to a Kantz theory, for example, if a man was beaten as a child then as he becomes an adult, goes on a killing spree, is he completely held to be unresponsible for his actions period? Think carefully on that answer and your own views on free-will and human nature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by npal
About the first part : I think it's in one's best interests, if he feels he has wronged someone to try everything in his power and try to make up for it. Plus, if we go too far, that core defining trait of Rin's forced Kaede into a certain character development. I can as well take all responsibility for her actions and her character development by putting the blame on Rin. Rin was the one to shape Kaede's character the way he did, and if Kaede ever did something wrong, that's Rin's fault. The whole issue was forced on Kaede by Rin's actions. Then, of course, it comes down to the question : "Who is responsible, the one who acts or the one who reacts?" And it is my belief that the one who acts should be held responsible for the reaction he causes. If people think otherwise, they can as well condemn their children whenever they fail.
Uhh.. Again, big problems here. Massively irreconcilable ones in fact. First of all, you are espousing what would amount to self-flangellation, doing anything to pay recompense. And then, placing blame on one human being for the actions decided by another human being fully capable for free-will. If Rin is responsible for all Kaede's actions, then Kaede cannot have free-will. In essence, you are denying her humanity.

This is the problem with absolutes, and this is the problem I stated earlier with your "belief" -- A belief is not something that is necessarily based upon logic. I can give you any example that will contradict your "action/reaction" theory, and you will simply twist it and add onto it to make your theory true.
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Old 2006-02-15, 16:51   Link #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somenoobie
I agree that Rin is very generic, and suffers from the usual male harem lead symptoms -

*confused or oblivious about things going on around him until after something big happens.
*has girls popping out of nowhere, he met during childhood
*often overlooks the female desperately most in love with him, right under his nose.
*indecisive but when he does finally make a choice, it only affects the currect situation (short term, very vague future)

but i've only seen a couple harem and harem'ish type series (including Elfen Lied, Mahoraba, Ai Yori Oshi). they are most evident in those

Overall rin is a good guy. Cares about everyone, is friendly, and well balanced.


as for Rin picking Asa...
I really dont believe in a relationship based on puppylove & playfulness. Will & devotion is so much more valuable, which is which I want to kick Rin in the mouth for turning away Kaede
Elfen Lied isnt a harem...it can probably be considered a harem because two girls want the male lead...and there are 4 girls living in his house but i still wouldnt call it a harem...
Btw Rin sux...recycled male lead...nuttin too special about him...
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Old 2006-02-15, 17:26   Link #98
npal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx
I have noticed that you cited that psychology based post as an answer to all of my statements on human nature. I would like you to please review those yourself again in response to your own above statement. Indeed, humans are flawed, but because of those flaws does not mean they cannot be held responsible. Very well, if you can apply them to Rin, please also apply them to Kaede.
It doesn't for you, it does for me, which is were the argument ends apparently. And how is my human nature counterargument applicable to my previous statement?

Quote:
Originally Posted by willx
1. A theory that ALWAYS applies, is not a theory at all. It lacks any reasonable value as it is not open to being disproved. It can always be possible to alter auxilary hypotheses to make the main hypothesis true. See Popper and critiques by the logical positivists.
Yes I am aware of Popper's critiques, and that's the main problem with Freud's theory.

Ok, let's call him normal if you like. That doesn't change the fact that the responsibility action comes from the attacking person's background and neither from the attacking person himself nor from Furundanuki. Instead of taking one route to search for that action, you take another, how's that wrong? I hate to break it to you but you do create mentally unstable individuals. Most of them are not like that from birth, they have a certain psychological profile that makes it easier for specific events to influence and change their behavior. That's why SOME people get major depression and others don't. But just because others don't doesn't me it's the former people's fault that they suffer from depression. About the flawed example, it's only flawed because you do not choose to acknowledge that the adult aggressive person is no more free from his background than the children are free from their developmental stages. To me, they are the same and should the blame should be placed elsewhere. It is your right to think otherwise. PLUS, when I was talking about children, I wasn't actually referring to 5 yr olds only. If your children are 30, aren't they still your children? Weren't you responsible for their upbringing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by willx
Going back to a Kantz theory, for example, if a man was beaten as a child then as he becomes an adult, goes on a killing spree, is he completely held to be unresponsible for his actions period? Think carefully on that answer and your own views on free-will and human nature.
Of course he is not to be held responsible. And it's society's and the state's responsibility to either a)restrain, reform, educate and rehabilitate that person or eliminate him if the former are not possible so that the rest of society remains unharmed and set an example that such actions cannot be tolerated, or b) find the root of the problem by following the action chain and change the action so that the reaction produced will not be disfunctional again. Again it's your right to believe in your absolute free will, but for me, the only one who has free will is the one who can see, understand and alter the chain of action or seek means to correct whatever damage the reaction caused.


Quote:
Originally Posted by willx
Uhh.. Again, big problems here. Massively irreconcilable ones in fact. First of all, you are espousing what would amount to self-flangellation, doing anything to pay recompense. And then, placing blame on one human being for the actions decided by another human being fully capable for free-will. If Rin is responsible for all Kaede's actions, then Kaede cannot have free-will. In essence, you are denying her humanity.
Yes, that is precicely what I do, but I'm denying her what SOME call humanity, and it is my and other people's right to deny that meaning of humanity. The only problem you can spot in that argument (and yes, rightly so) is that I don't have much information on Rin, so assuming he holds total responsibility for Kaede's actions implies that he had absolute free will, which may not be the case. And you had every right to say that, because that would be true. I don't have that much information to create Rin's chain of action. But since I can track Kaede's chain of actionTO Rin, I can take responsibility off her shoulders and move it at least up to Rin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willx
This is the problem with absolutes, and this is the problem I stated earlier with your "belief" -- A belief is not something that is necessarily based upon logic. I can give you any example that will contradict your "action/reaction" theory, and you will simply twist it and add onto it to make your theory true.
Will I actually twist it or do you have firm belief that what I will? Will you see what there is or what you want to see? Plus, my theory is not like Freud's. Freud bases his theory on a structure that cannot be experimented with. My theory is looking at the reaction and tracking the action using the reaction as a guide, in successive applications of deduction, and it's pretty easy to check that and either prove or disprove it.

And to support my human nature counterargument, I will use something of my post above. A human errs. The first step is to actually SPOT the mistake by witnessing its reaction/result/outcome which must stimulate further analysis (meaning either the human himself OR someone else tells him that this is a indeed an error). Next, the human must trace the chain of actions back to the source. The chain of actions obviously passes through him at some point. In moving up the chain of actions he can also find answers for his own self. Once he finds an accceptable action to hold responsible for the chain, a human NOW has the free will to a) alter the chain, e.g. if his father abused him and that drove him eventually to error X, he will alter the chain by not abusing his child and b) if he can, correct the error.
And to return to my human nature counterargument, yes, to start the action/reaction search a human must have understood that a) he DOES err and b) Error is not his right. The other part of free will is whether someone WANTS to go through the above process, even if someone else informs him of his error. And yes, according to this post, someone who doesn't go through this process even when he is informed is a slave to his chain of action and his free will is a nice fairytale.

And now, I'm awaiting the counterarguments of course.
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Old 2006-02-17, 07:15   Link #99
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Hm, after reading over my preceeding response and your post carefully, as careful can be due to what time it is over here, and my lack of sleep.. I have come to realize that this is an argument stemming from our fundamental beliefs of human nature, society and what is humanity & free-will. Since we cannot agree on a set of premises, then arguing the details is rather meaningless.

In the end, we can only agree to disagree, and then place our beliefs before the judge that is society, and those which are deemed more acceptable or appropriate will be deemed "more correct"

So, as I state again a bit further on, despite probably mounting fallacies within my statements, and increasing incomprehensibility this shall be my last post about this matter! I shall enjoy the sighs of relief henceforth!

Quote:
Originally Posted by npal
It doesn't for you, it does for me, which is were the argument ends apparently. And how is my human nature counterargument applicable to my previous statement?
Perhaps I am failing to understand your statement, but condensed, and applied directly to this situation, your post stated: "Rin is human. Asa is human. Humans err. Simply being human does not excuse errors."

Now, my query is what is the difference between Rin's humanity that you can criticize and Kaede's humanity that doesn't exist. More to the point, since you've stated that Kaede has no free-will and is not responsible for her actions, which is what makes Rin responsible for her actions, then _what_ is Kaede really? What if anything has she actually been doing for the past 8 years or so? Maybe I'm confused, but it seems that you're saying that she had no free-will until episode 19 or so in the series when she blinked and said: "Hey, I've been a bit delusional.." So what happens with the chain when she realizes that and wants to make changes, your theory doesn't seem to allow for her to be retroactively responsible for her actions..? And, I had typed something that may've angered people, so I deleted it, but.. Between the first episode and the 18th, when Kaede lacked free-will, and was even by npal's own statements, lacking of what I identify to be humanity.. what is the solution? Rehabilitation? Should she have been somehow removed out of society after blame was placed on Rin for turning her into this being?

Quote:
Originally Posted by npal
About the flawed example, it's only flawed because you do not choose to acknowledge that the adult aggressive person is no more free from his background than the children are free from their developmental stages. To me, they are the same and should the blame should be placed elsewhere. It is your right to think otherwise. PLUS, when I was talking about children, I wasn't actually referring to 5 yr olds only. If your children are 30, aren't they still your children? Weren't you responsible for their upbringing?
You are right, I choose not to acknowledge that an aggressive adult is the same as a undeveloped child-mind. To me, to remove all responsibility from that individual, would be to deny that the remainder of their existence beyond the time when they were abused was actually lived. Again, fundamental different beliefs, although I do find it peculiar that you would hold a parent responsible for the behavior of a 30 yr old (child).

Quote:
Originally Posted by npal
Will I actually twist it or do you have firm belief that what I will? Will you see what there is or what you want to see? Plus, my theory is not like Freud's. Freud bases his theory on a structure that cannot be experimented with. My theory is looking at the reaction and tracking the action using the reaction as a guide, in successive applications of deduction, and it's pretty easy to check that and either prove or disprove it.
After this, I realize that I cannot argue on this particular "topic" with you, because I do not accept the premise of your argument and as stated above you do not accept mine. As such, this will be my last response, as this topic is called "Appreciation for Rin" and not a Psychology and Philosophy debate forum on public policy and societal constructs.

If a person willfully chooses to rob a store, and believes that he is entitled to a share of society's wealth, as he believes society has certain particular responsibilities to the underprivledged. Regardless of whether it is or not, he believes it to be. Therefore, he "errs", but does not see it/believes he is entitled to it. Therefore he has no free-will. Therefore, no responsibility falls upon him for robbing the store.

Perhaps this is exactly what you were trying to point out, but I fail to accept the validity of a statement that suggests to me that anyone that believes or accepts principles outside of society's generally accepted ones, laws or precedents, must always lack free will.

Furthermore, perhaps it is due to my lack of imagination or maybe it's 4:10am in the morning, but according to your theory, I am unable to come up with an example where a person willfully commits a "wrong" deed, lacks remorse and is deemed to have free-will and therefore responsibility for their deed.
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Old 2006-02-17, 08:17   Link #100
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Still going npal ^^ Well I can't be bother reading anymore arguments, but I sure your having a hell of a time ^^ to bad that this thread is the active one though the Kill Kill Rin!!! Club!!! isn't active anymore, the post difference is still big

Well I started watching a few harem (non ero-game based) anime the other day, since I've been a little disspointed in alot of other anime that I thought would be good this season or I've lost interest in other shows (which happens often ^^;; ), so I thought why not try a few harem shows out, they most likey are going to be crap but mabye a little interesting in some ways and so if you want to see an different type male harem lead with a interesting personality watch Kage Kara Mamoru its hilarious, banana banana banana banana banana banana banana well he looks kinda crappy with the glasses on but, other then that is a nice change. -> Its not the best show but so far I like it ^^
Quote:
Originally Posted by npal
your last sentence is a huge contradiction. Only God can say that probably
hmm.. I think some of wording is a bit wrong or isn't clear, I tend to do that (alot!) anyway its always interesting to have you post here, I would say you have even scared some people from posting here lol (not refering to you willx, if you thought so)

Last edited by evil-samurai; 2006-02-17 at 10:12.
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