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Old 2008-04-25, 17:51   Link #161
Jaka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei View Post
Are you kidding me? Here, I'll post them all. Sheesh

Spoiler:


Well? Intrusive?

-Tofu
It really doesn't change the fact that it is blocking up stuff...
If you have done the OP, mind posting that up too?
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Old 2008-04-25, 17:53   Link #162
Tofusensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaka View Post
It really doesn't change the fact that it is blocking up stuff...
If you have done the OP, mind posting that up too?
I don't know how anyone can honestly call that intrusive. We didn't even include fansub credits in the OP for that reason! That is the OP, btw. Do you want me to include the ED too?

If people want raws, they should download raws. That's my opinion.

And Nicholi, I'm being sarcastic about the "for free" thing, hence the parentheses ^^;

-Tofu
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Old 2008-04-25, 17:56   Link #163
Tofusensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatakae View Post
Tofu-sensei, I do like the kind of work how you and your group do; you show respect to the original creators by translating the credits. I'd wish more groups like yours would do that.
Thank you for the voice of reason, Tatakae.

-Tofu
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Old 2008-04-25, 17:58   Link #164
Jaka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei View Post
I don't know how anyone can honestly call that intrusive. We didn't even include fansub credits in the OP for that reason!

If people want raws, they should download raws. That's my opinion.

And Nicholi, I'm being sarcastic about the "for free" thing, hence the parentheses ^^;

-Tofu
So, you mean you only translate credits for shows that have OP/ED's that will not interfere with your translations of credits?

About the raws, I disagree to that.

1)We want subtitles for a reason.
2)Encoded version always turn out better than the raw.

I see your point of view, but still, it's annoying to many people. >>;;
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Old 2008-04-25, 18:05   Link #165
Nicholi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei View Post
I don't know how anyone can honestly call that intrusive. We didn't even include fansub credits in the OP for that reason!

If people want raws, they should download raws. That's my opinion.

And Nicholi, I'm being sarcastic about the "for free" thing, hence the parentheses ^^;

-Tofu
Oh my mistake, I wasn't aware parenthesis were the new universal indicator of sarcasm.

I think a perfectly legitimate point was made you keep ignoring though. People can easily look up who did the work on every episode of a show at something like ANN. Much like I don't bust out my R1 DVD, seek to the ending credits of the movie, and scan the long list everytime I want to find/see who worked on it. Instead I just go over to imdb.com and look it up. Much easier to view a simple list on a website than watch an entire opening sequence just to see the credits.

The idea that no one gets credit/noticed for their hard work unless we stick these subs onto the video is pretty absurd. The people who do genuinely care to find out who worked on a show will find out who is on that show whether you translate the credits or not. Motivated individuals somehow have this nifty way of just getting things done. The people that don't care either way are not affected whatsoever by the credits except it is just more clutter on the screen. You are not somehow changing the attitude of fans that just don't care by showing the credits in English so they go, "Oh my gosh...people worked on this? I thought it just came out of the magic fairy kingdom. I am going to go email these individuals, that I didn't even know existed, to tell them of my appreciation." Is it obtrusively cluttering the screen? No I don't really think it is doing that myself, people have gotten fairly good at that nowadays. But it is entirely unnecessary clutter in my opinion.
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Old 2008-04-25, 18:17   Link #166
Tatakae
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Please people don't forget that not everyone who's watching a fansub is automatically a hardcore anime fan who knows about special sites like ANN (which doesn't list the detailed staff of tv episodes anyway) and especially don't forget that some interested people might not even be well versed with internet at all. I for example know cinema buffs my age or older who show real interest in japanese animation and want to know who did "draw"/animate certain aspects of the things they've seen, but who nevertheless don't go all the way looking up in the internet to find out who did what excactly. For those people, credits are a handy way to remember on the spot the names of some creators.
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Old 2008-04-25, 18:37   Link #167
Nicholi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatakae View Post
Please people don't forget that not everyone who's watching a fansub is automatically a hardcore anime fan who knows about special sites like ANN (which doesn't list the detailed staff of tv episodes anyway) and especially don't forget that some interested people might not even be well versed with internet at all. I for example know cinema buffs my age or older who show real interest in japanese animation and want to know who did "draw"/animate certain aspects of the things they've seen, but who nevertheless don't go all the way looking up in the internet to find out who did what excactly. For those people, credits are a handy way to remember on the spot the names of some creators.
Somehow I doubt said individuals exist which go "oh I want to know who worked on that" but then because there are no credits (in the majority of fansubs) they are only left with "well I guess I'll never find out now" and thats the end of that story. Seriously, who do you expect to believe that?

Also if you had actually been to ANN you would know that their list of staff is fairly comprehensive and will list different staff per episode when they were changed. As to the "comprehensive"ness of fansubs, the most they do is translate the credits in the Opening and maybe the individual VAs per episode in the Ending. You can easily find that information by just using google, only the biggest most important names of the project are the ones in the Opening. Type in title of series and director/voice actor/animator whatever you want and I'm sure you will find the answer quite quickly. No secret ANN site required though it might even be the first hit. Omigosh? (Actually seems like wikipedia wins first entry on most stuff, with ANN in second, sekrat site is sekrat) Not to mention all the other fansites for VAs and such.

The real meat of the credits is in the Ending anyways but no one here is even translating that. So please...stop pretending like the few big names in the OP are impossible to find or are the only important ones to know. Translated credits in the show are far from "handy" compared to easy to read lists at ANN or any other site. You don't need to watch anything, you don't need to seek through anything to find the name. It's just there.

You want to talk about stupid people who can't find things, the majority of fanshrubs do not have the credits translated in any way shape or form. This is not going to change. So what you should be doing to help those people and others who say things like "omfg what INTERNET?!" is tell them about ANN/other sites so they don't need to be so clueless in the future. There are going to be alot more fansubs with alot of untranslated credits.
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Old 2008-04-25, 19:09   Link #168
日本ひきこもり協会
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
If you for some bizarre reason feel you have to do this, please do it without covering up half the OP/ED animation with gigantic walls of text noone wants or has time to read, TIA.
If I want to know who worked on a show, I search ANN, I don't go to check on my fansubs.

(fansub credits are equally gay, by the way)
1. Everyone keeps saying ANN but do you guys ever tried checking ANN? They don't list all credits. So it's quite useful to have a translation of all of the cast.

2. Having the screen filled with some stupid karaoke effect is worse than some text "blocking" the screen.
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Old 2008-04-25, 19:29   Link #169
martino
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 日本ひきこもり協会 View Post
1. Everyone keeps saying ANN but do you guys ever tried checking ANN? They don't list all credits. So it's quite useful to have a translation of all of the cast.
"All credits"? Are you seriously going to bother looking up who voiced some tramp that got less than ten seconds of screentime? >_>
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Old 2008-04-25, 20:48   Link #170
Teppei
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Oh, geez.

Why do I put in translated credits for OP/Seiyuu? Because I like to. I like to follow who works on the anime I enjoy and, in some small measure, it's a way of showing respect for the people who put the hard (and not so well paid, I hear) work creating that anime. Most people, including me, would have a pretty rough time figuring out the kanji of people's names just to satisfy some random curiosity, so sitting down and doing it helps those people. Many's the time I thought I recognized an art style or a voice actor and wanted a quick way to check if I was right or not.

The purpose of the OP/ED it to show credits. Arguments about "blocking the art" ring very false to me, but that's, of course, just my opinion. Everyone just skips the OP/ED anyway.

It has nothing to do with claiming one fansub is better than another in any way. As this is supposed to be a thread about fansub comparison sites, I will note that IMO, what I really care about is the translation quality first and foremost. It would be great to find a site that rated fansubs on translation, rather than the gloss of fonts and karaoke. I realize how difficult that would be, however.

In the end, I fansub for fun and I fansub the way I like. If someone doesn't like it, fine. They're entitled to their opinion. If they want to rise to the level of "annoyed", fine too, but that does make me wonder.
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Old 2008-04-25, 20:50   Link #171
VincentRPG
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This is a real silly argument. Just do what you want and that is that.
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Old 2008-04-26, 00:08   Link #172
Jaka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martino View Post
"All credits"? Are you seriously going to bother looking up who voiced some tramp that got less than ten seconds of screentime? >_>
OMG, I LOVE THE VOICE OF THAT STRAY CAT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teppei View Post
Oh, geez.

Why do I put in translated credits for OP/Seiyuu? Because I like to. I like to follow who works on the anime I enjoy and, in some small measure, it's a way of showing respect for the people who put the hard (and not so well paid, I hear) work creating that anime. Most people, including me, would have a pretty rough time figuring out the kanji of people's names just to satisfy some random curiosity, so sitting down and doing it helps those people. Many's the time I thought I recognized an art style or a voice actor and wanted a quick way to check if I was right or not.

The purpose of the OP/ED it to show credits. Arguments about "blocking the art" ring very false to me, but that's, of course, just my opinion. Everyone just skips the OP/ED anyway.

It has nothing to do with claiming one fansub is better than another in any way. As this is supposed to be a thread about fansub comparison sites, I will note that IMO, what I really care about is the translation quality first and foremost. It would be great to find a site that rated fansubs on translation, rather than the gloss of fonts and karaoke. I realize how difficult that would be, however.

In the end, I fansub for fun and I fansub the way I like. If someone doesn't like it, fine. They're entitled to their opinion. If they want to rise to the level of "annoyed", fine too, but that does make me wonder.
Showing respect?
Hmm.
Maybe the original credits are on the OP for some unknown reason.
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Old 2008-04-26, 04:25   Link #173
cyth
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A screenshot of credits translations would show off the effort that was put into the release. Much the same can be said for karaoke. Both are unnecessary in the sense of simply presenting anime to the watcher, but since the site in question is supposedly a comparison site, I don't see what's wrong with showing off whatever's been put into those releases. If I want to know how good an anime is, I'll read some blogs first, but if I'm checking a site like that, I obviously want to figure out what fansub group to follow. The watcher is the ultimate judge whether or not he wants to see karaoke or credits there. It's a personal choice in the end; nobody's forcing anyone to watch fansubs the way we choose to present them.
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Old 2008-04-26, 07:00   Link #174
Tatakae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicholi View Post
Somehow I doubt said individuals exist which go "oh I want to know who worked on that" but then because there are no credits (in the majority of fansubs) they are only left with "well I guess I'll never find out now" and thats the end of that story. Seriously, who do you expect to believe that?
Well, I know such people; not excactly the way like you describe them, but yes, they do exist. Cinema buffs but also graduate students of movie studies like me.

Quote:
Also if you had actually been to ANN you would know that their list of staff is fairly comprehensive and will list different staff per episode when they were changed.
Believe me, I do know ANN fairly well and they don't do it for a lot of series, for obvious reasons (too much work, can't blame them). For instance, the landmark comedy/satire series Urusei Yatsura doesn't have the different staff like the animation directors for each episode listed (would be quite a lot for 196 episodes), even though they do list a lot of names.


Quote:
As to the "comprehensive"ness of fansubs, the most they do is translate the credits in the Opening and maybe the individual VAs per episode in the Ending. You can easily find that information by just using google, only the biggest most important names of the project are the ones in the Opening. Type in title of series and director/voice actor/animator whatever you want and I'm sure you will find the answer quite quickly.
That's quite true, however only for big names, like you write. Anyone seriously interested in key animators for instance is mostly left alone.


Quote:
The real meat of the credits is in the Ending anyways but no one here is even translating that. So please...stop pretending like the few big names in the OP are impossible to find or are the only important ones to know.
... ? ... I didn't pretend that.

Quote:
Translated credits in the show are far from "handy" compared to easy to read lists at ANN or any other site.
Well, that's your point of view and not an universal truth.


Quote:
You want to talk about stupid people who can't find things, the majority of fanshrubs do not have the credits translated in any way shape or form. This is not going to change.
I know that myself and I personally think it's rather sad, but hey, it doesn't hurt anyone to praise the groups/individual who do it; not if they use small fonts. If they use really big fonts, I understand the complaints a bit more.

Quote:
So what you should be doing to help those people and others who say things like "omfg what INTERNET?!" is tell them about ANN/other sites so they don't need to be so clueless in the future. There are going to be alot more fansubs with alot of untranslated credits.
Aha, so I should tell seriously interested people, "too bad for you, just look up yourself for such details in the internet. You know, rabid fansub fans hate that their holy op/ed art is denaturated by credit names", eh?
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Old 2008-04-26, 08:10   Link #175
Ichihara Asako
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I, for one, really appreciate fully translated credits. Though staff wise I rarely actively care about anybody but who did the music, I think it's nice seeing the credits fully translated, and <3 groups who take the time to do so -- but then, I skip 98% of OPs and EDs entirely after watching once (~50% I never even watch through in full if the music doesn't appeal unless I'm interested in staff credits, which is also quite rare.)

I've never understood the fascination with OP/ED animation as it's often somewhat spoilerish, at least early in a series where it shows characters that haven't been introduced yet and such. I've never watched a single OP or ED focusing on the animation in over 30 years of watching. Maybe if DVDs come with creditless versions I'll give them a glance if I like the music, but generally that'll result in me just listening to the music and not paying attention to the screen. >.>

Anyway. rant. Just saying, I appreciate groups who take the time to fully translate credits. Please, don't stop. <3
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Old 2008-04-26, 08:46   Link #176
TheFluff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 日本ひきこもり協会 View Post
1. Everyone keeps saying ANN but do you guys ever tried checking ANN? They don't list all credits. So it's quite useful to have a translation of all of the cast.
Do you ever tried (sic) checking a fansub with translated credits? Most groups (including Tofu's) that translate credits only translate the VA's, some of the more important production staff and the song credits and leaves at least half of the credits untranslated because a) noone cares, b) noone knows how to transliterate random animator #62636's name properly, c) noone cares, d) OH GOD EFFORT, e) noone cares, f) for a lot of groups who do this their source for the credits are ANN anyway, g) noone cares AT ALL, seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei View Post
Oh, nice one. Clever of you to screenshot the OP which is nice enough to have black backgrounds for all the credits. May I bring my own screenshots?

Spoiler:

You're more than doubling the amount of onscreen text, pretty much. That's pretty annoying. Stop doing it.

Edit: while we're going at it, why don't you drop some of the credits and spend the time used for creating them on something more useful like, say, chapter points?

Edit edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatakae View Post
Aha, so I should tell seriously interested people, "too bad for you, just look up yourself for such details in the internet. You know, rabid fansub fans hate that their holy op/ed art is denaturated by credit names", eh?
YES BECAUSE INSTEAD OF EASILY SEARCHABLE TEXT DATA WE SHOULD STORE INFORMATION AS HARDCODED SUBTITLES ON VIDEO FILES SO YOU HAVE TO WATCH THE ENTIRE SERIES TO FIND THE INFORMATION YOU'RE LOOKING FOR.
Seriously, what the fuck is with this argument?

Edit edit edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toua View Post
A screenshot of credits translations would show off the effort that was put into the release.
Imma start copypasting credits from ANN into my fansub releases now to make it look like more effort was taken, maybe it'll get me more downloads!
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Old 2008-04-26, 09:12   Link #177
Schneizel
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Quit slacking off on work by flaming people on forums. Plzthx.
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Old 2008-04-26, 09:43   Link #178
brocko
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Seriously i don't get what all the buzz is about, if a group wants to translate the credits then so be it, if they don't then so be it. It's not like a life or death situation is going to come about because of it. I personally like the idea of translating credits and commend the groups that do so, but that doesn't mean I'm gonna jump on groups that don't do so.

Hell as a leecher I'm more concerned with translation quality than anything else, which might I point out can be very hard to determine at times. Especially when there is next to nothing to cross-check it with (eg: knowing the language or having a reliabe translation). Comparison site help at times, but when you have three versions that all say something different, you're basically forced to guess, basing it on context, sentence structure and grammar instead.
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Old 2008-04-26, 09:49   Link #179
Tofusensei
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Okay, so let's sum up what we learned today.

1) People are torn on the issue of whether translated credits offers any benefit or detracts from the experience.
2) Therefore it is wise to include screenshots of the credit pages in the fansub comparison so viewers can make up their mind. People who don't like translated credits can watch the fansubs without the translated credits, and vice versa. (way to bring it back on topic!)
3) People seem to care less about "honoring" or "respecting" (for lack of better terms) the Japanese creators than ever before.

Did you know it's almost mandatory in every contract for an R1 anime company that they HAVE to translate the Japanese credits? The Japanese want us to do it, I feel it's the least we can do, considering we're destroying their industry with our fansubs. (but that is a discussion for another day).

The moral of the story is, you will not convince myself or Teppei or others to not subtitle credits. We feel it adds more to the overall fansub experience and shows a level of dedication that others might not be willing to do. If this bothers you, do not watch our fansubs.

If you want clean openings, pm me and I'll link you to where you can download raws. I'm not even going to try to convince people to buy DVDs because we all know that won't happen ^^;

And TheFluff, I offered to post ED screenshots but no one took me up on that offer (see 2nd post on this page for proof). Don't act like you're knocking down my house of cards argument with those screenshots.

Thanks for the discussion, guys!

-Tofu
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Old 2008-04-26, 09:59   Link #180
Tatakae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
YES BECAUSE INSTEAD
Why are you screaming?

Quote:
OF EASILY SEARCHABLE TEXT DATA
Like I wrote earlier, not everyone is so well-versed in Internet culture or wants to make the extra effort to look up to an online data base (I feel redundancy). Please think of people who are not like youself and your peer groups.

Quote:
WE SHOULD STORE INFORMATION AS HARDCODED SUBTITLES ON VIDEO FILES
Like someone wrote earlier, softsubs would be ideal. I agree to that.

Quote:
SO YOU HAVE TO WATCH THE ENTIRE SERIES TO FIND THE INFORMATION YOU'RE LOOKING FOR
.... huh? ...


Quote:
Seriously, what the fuck is with this argument?
I have no idea, maybe you tell me why you're so vehemmently opposed to see translated credits. Some traumatic experiences, perhaps?
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