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Old 2005-12-30, 03:20   Link #21
Last_Hope
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Originally Posted by Istan Bravo
I agree with you. I just finished watching the whole Samurai Champloo series. The story, characters development and the fighting scenes is 10x better than Bleach/Naruto. And I love their comedy too!!
Yeah, it´s a truly great show. I found it to be very creative in terms of story, character and fighting. For the comedy part, well Baseball Blues.

I also really, I mean really, like the OP. One of my favourites.

For Bleach vs Naruto. Well I prefer Bleach, even if they have lots of techniques in Naruto sometimes the fights can be pretty slow and boring themselves when they just stand there and talk... So I don´t really think the fights in Naruto are more creative, but they´re definitely longer.
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Old 2005-12-30, 05:01   Link #22
Mousuke
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I watch both (except for Naruto's nauseating filler eps. Ugh) and I'd pick Bleach anyday. It's not that I don't like Naruto, but that I like it better.

Naruto has a fun setting. I really like the ninja world Kishimoto set up, the ninja ranks, the general plot, and the characters. But the whole series has a somewhat immature feel to it. Like, we know about the characters but we don't really know them as intimately as we know the cast of Bleach. And the Naruto anime moves so slowly in my opinion. The "let's find Tsunade!" arc could have been resolved in four episodes instead of roughly ten. The "chaos after the Chuunin exam" arc could have been resolved in half the time it originally took. Even the "Save Sasuke!" arc dragged on too long. The fights are entertaining and creative, but they take too long to develop and resolve. I know the pacing is due to how they animate the manga, but it's still something that kills the series for me.

Bleach is just something I like better. I like the setting better, the story better, the characters better, the fights better, the animation better, the music better...you name it, I like it better. In Bleach I actually feel something deep for the characters and literally chew my nails during the fights. It's fast, it's tightly connected, it's entertaining, it's good, it's gripping. Enough said.

I guess an easier way to put it is that I watch a Naruto episode once whereas I watch a Bleach episode over and over again.
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Old 2005-12-30, 07:14   Link #23
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In 60 episodes of Bleach more has been covered and expanded than 160 episodes of Naruto. And if Naruto can take one episode just to shoot one fireball (can't remember the name) i dun really think that's creative.

On the other hand, the idea of Soul Slayers having names and unique abilities based on the wielder's character and personality is the first i've ever seen in any anime i've watched. The developement is a lot faster.

In fact i think the only thing Bleach should change is the idea of finishing fights in one final blow (think Ichigo vs Zaraki or Kuchiki Byakuya).
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Old 2005-12-30, 09:14   Link #24
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This thread sounds so much similar to the naruto vs one piece thread...

One thing I'll agree with: The fights in bleach need more involvement with kidous. Well, unless you're talking about Ichigo(who doesnt know any kidou).
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Old 2005-12-30, 09:25   Link #25
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You think naruto is original but most of what you see can be seen in other ninja animes. It does have a few (more) original ideas though.

But the thing i would give naruto over bleach is that the world is sooo big, practically anything can happen. Where as bleach's world seems limited. I didn't explain myself well, but maybe someone might understand me
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Old 2005-12-30, 09:39   Link #26
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When you think about creativity Naruto is clearly the winner and Bleach simply a well-done shounen manga/anime.

Simply put the shonen genre is already done and redone. The main "formula" has been done tons of times. To make a succesful shounen-fighting anime you take that formula and simply change charachters and settings and that's it. The story is always the same: Naruto and Bleach are the same. But naruto has managed to be a little more creative.

First the fightings. There is no point in arguing here: naruto's fightings are simply better. And i'm not talking about the fightings of the charachter Naruto, i'm talking about the others fightings. First of all the concept of jutsu is more interesting and has more variety. Every ninja is able to learn about every jutsu available (or something like that). That means that the charachters are not limited to one or two attack per charachter like in bleach (everyone has shikai and someone has bankai... and stop). Sure there is specialization cause it's more clever to know a limited amount of jutsu well than a large amount at a low level but everyone cast a large number of the most basic jutsu. And not only that. The jutsu are even creative. Sure we have stupid things like chidori and rasengan that are basically the same old "power" punch (something like db) but there are tons of other jutsu that are centered around shadows, mind, sand, internal chakra, cloning, illusions, movements.... you name it!
On the contrary in Bleach 95% of the shikai/bankai are just power strikes... how to explain better... just power ups to do more damage with rare exceptions.
In naruto there are specialized ninjas that are better at close range or long range fights, illusions or ninjutsu or taijutsu ... one ninja is more useful or less useful based on his skills and the opponent's type and the ground. In bleach.... you are simply stronger or weaker. The only few charachters that have a different style of fightings are Youruichi and Soi Fong, and Inoue and that medic captain (and they don't even fight). The others simply tap their power and throw the power at the enemy. There is no strategy or planning or thinking in the fights. The stronger just win. There was a funny preview episode of the anime were Renji and Ichigo argued about who is stronger... "i'm 10 times stronger" "yes? so i'm 100 times stronger than you!" "And i will get 1000 times stronger" and so on... it was meant to laugh but it really show the level of "fightings" in Bleach.
In Naruto there is more strategy or even team work (unheard in Bleach). Not only Shikamaru but remember Neji? Or Kiba? or Shino?or... well add almost everyone except naruto and few others.

And now on the actual fightings in the anime/manga. In Bleach the fightings are poorly made. We just see the charachter that makes a pose and release his power... then somewhere around the enemy there is an explosion. Or even worse the fightings are just concluded without showing what was going on in details. Scene of the start of the fight then cut and then scene of the end of the fight.Especially at the end of the SS saga. It's frustrating and stupid. I want to see actual fights like the awesome Lee vs Gaara or Neji vs Hinata.... oh man that were sweet animations....

Many said that Bleach has only 60 eps compared to 160 of Naruto... well first take 30 eps of fillers away from naruto. So the Naruto anime main story is more than twice the bleach anime. Second compare the manga. Bleach at the end of this saga is around chapter 180 and Naruto after the save sasuke saga was around chapter 238 which is not twice the amount of the bleach chapters. You know why? Because the Bleach anime has a very fast pace compared to naruto. It was a wise decision to go fast with bleach anime episodes... just imagine to slow down the bleach fights that are already uncreative right now (no strategy or something to explain about the powers since they are almost the same).... it would be hell!

We are talking about creativity?
Let's start talking about the world. Naruto's World is simply better. Not only it's more vast and has a more realistic feeling (not realism but realistic) that hints you that there is a history and an original geography but it breaks free from the good/evil cliche'. In bleach the shinigami are good and are right and the hollows are evil. In naruto the different nations are not classified in right and wrong. When Sand attacked Leaf was evil? No it was simply a war between two nations and Sand has its own reasons to attack. That's nice.
The ninja of kishimoto are not the historical ninja. But compare the two kind of ninja is stupid cause that world is different from ours and ninja have a different purpouse. They are soldier and serve as army in a world where gun powder is pretty useless. They have headbands to show their loyalty. The hidden villages serves as army of the nations and there is balance between the villages. There are minor flaws..(where the hell comes that tv from???) but nothing big.
Bleach's world is less creative and doesn't even makes sense. First, is just another spiritual world parallel to standard earth (we have seen tons of this already). Second it makes really no sense. How do the shinigami lives? do they have to eat? why they are spirtual being! Do they mate? How come Rukia has a sister? Do they age? What's the deal with shinigami city?....is just an empty labirinth with no apparent use. Why is the city japanese style and is said to exists since centuries? japanese culture is at most 1300years old... is the fist captain the first and only head that SS had in his history?
In the end you have to accept this as granted and not think too much about bleach setting...

I could go on forever but i want to conclude with one or two words about Naruto and Ichigo. They are both crappy charachters. Cliched and almost the same. Let's face it the japanese want that type of cocky main charachter. But there is thing that makes Naruto more likeable (or less annoying): he is actually weak. Naruto was never the more powerfull charachter around... everywhere he went there was someone that could have simply kick him (Kakashi, Sasuke, Oro, every jounin and so on). He was always underrated. Nobody really had big expectations about him... there were other charachters that captured more attention than him for most of the series (like sasuke or neji). There was a funny scene during the chuunin exam where naruto was knocked down and when he regained his senses Shikamaru said “he could never be the main charachter of a story”. On the other hand Ichigo really steal the spotlight from the other charachters. He is the center of the story, everyone has high hopes for him, he has to save the day, he is the one and only hero. Ishida, Chad and Inoue are not even worth of being support charachters: they didn't play a role in the story and nobody is interested in them.
Let alone the most annoying and stupid thing of Bleach: ichigo ridicolous power ups. Before entering SS he was nothing and in almost 10 days he has reached god-like power (when he stopped like nothing the execution of Rukia and the manga said that he has the power of 1 million shinigami swords... i was screaming!). After the hype about how powerfull the shinigami captains were... (they are hundreds years old being that do nothing else than fighting...) Ichigo trashed them in a few days... please! Naruto after years of training and fighting is propably just about strong as Kakashi.
Naruto is far from being perfect (and that curse seal level 1 and 2 is pure shit) but beats any day Bleach in a creativity confrontation.
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Old 2005-12-30, 11:40   Link #27
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maany things youve said about bleach is wrong, i suggest that you read the manga again.
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Old 2005-12-30, 11:48   Link #28
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Originally Posted by Altharion
maany things youve said about bleach is wrong, i suggest that you read the manga again.
You may not agree with his conclusions, but it seems to me that his facts are correct. Can you tell us what exactly he made a mistake about?
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Old 2005-12-30, 11:57   Link #29
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why the hell you people comparing Bleach with Naruto, just watch them there is no reason to compare them. Anyway Bleach has decent creativity, it is about shimigami fighting that is a orignal idea.
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Old 2005-12-30, 12:17   Link #30
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Originally Posted by NoSanninWa
You may not agree with his conclusions, but it seems to me that his facts are correct. Can you tell us what exactly he made a mistake about?
no i agree on several parts in his conclusion, i disagree on some parts aswell.

but many of his question has that drags down bleach in his post has been answered in the manga.
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Old 2005-12-30, 12:20   Link #31
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Originally Posted by otacu
When you think about creativity Naruto is clearly the winner and Bleach simply a well-done shounen manga/anime.
Really? I doubt there can be any "clear" winner in any of these comparison threads, simply because it's all based on opinion. And last I checked, opinion != fact. Now, I will attempt to reply to your whole post. I may have to stop short and come back to it since I have work soon, but I will continue where I left off if that happens.

Quote:
Simply put the shonen genre is already done and redone. The main "formula" has been done tons of times. To make a succesful shounen-fighting anime you take that formula and simply change charachters and settings and that's it. The story is always the same: Naruto and Bleach are the same. But naruto has managed to be a little more creative.
I agree with your first point, the shounen genre is quite tired. However, the same can be said for many genres (romance, comedy, etc). And I'll bite, how has Naruto been more creative? I guess I'll just go down a little to find out.

Quote:
First the fightings. There is no point in arguing here: naruto's fightings are simply better. And i'm not talking about the fightings of the charachter Naruto, i'm talking about the others fightings. First of all the concept of jutsu is more interesting and has more variety. Every ninja is able to learn about every jutsu available (or something like that). That means that the charachters are not limited to one or two attack per charachter like in bleach (everyone has shikai and someone has bankai... and stop). Sure there is specialization cause it's more clever to know a limited amount of jutsu well than a large amount at a low level but everyone cast a large number of the most basic jutsu. And not only that. The jutsu are even creative. Sure we have stupid things like chidori and rasengan that are basically the same old "power" punch (something like db) but there are tons of other jutsu that are centered around shadows, mind, sand, internal chakra, cloning, illusions, movements.... you name it!
To start off, I can't really take any kind of comparison post seriously when someone just nonchalantly throws around words like "no point arguing" before the discussion even begins. That's far too vain. True, there are many jutsus. However, do you really expect Kishimoto to go through with all of them? That'd take forever. Couple with the fact that many jutsus are known only by a certain village, and soon you hit a snag. I mean, all the ninjas in Konoha can only learn up to a certain amount of jutsus before they run out of things to learn, unless they somehow obtain the teachings of another village. So far, Orochimaru is the only individual to attempt that, so our protagonists are bound to run out sooner or later. However, it can be argued that the same will happen to Bleach, so the last point is moot. True, many jutsus, I'll give you that. But you overlooked something.

Quote:
On the contrary in Bleach 95% of the shikai/bankai are just power strikes... how to explain better... just power ups to do more damage with rare exceptions.
In naruto there are specialized ninjas that are better at close range or long range fights, illusions or ninjutsu or taijutsu ... one ninja is more useful or less useful based on his skills and the opponent's type and the ground. In bleach.... you are simply stronger or weaker. The only few charachters that have a different style of fightings are Youruichi and Soi Fong, and Inoue and that medic captain (and they don't even fight). The others simply tap their power and throw the power at the enemy. There is no strategy or planning or thinking in the fights. The stronger just win. There was a funny preview episode of the anime were Renji and Ichigo argued about who is stronger... "i'm 10 times stronger" "yes? so i'm 100 times stronger than you!" "And i will get 1000 times stronger" and so on... it was meant to laugh but it really show the level of "fightings" in Bleach.
In Naruto there is more strategy or even team work (unheard in Bleach). Not only Shikamaru but remember Neji? Or Kiba? or Shino?or... well add almost everyone except naruto and few others.
There is strategy in Naruto, but there's strategy in Bleach too. You're just not looking hard enough (people have already referenced some earlier fights). Furthermore, there's been plenty of the "powering up" you mentioned that's been shown in Naruto too. Naruto's fight against Neji, against Gaara, against Sasuke, against the Akatsuki. Sasuke's fight against the Sound 4, against Naruto. Chouji's fight against one of the Sound 4. You also forgot about the fact that there's something called Kidou (Demon Arts) in Bleach, and we've barely even tapped into that. Remember, Aizen mentioned 4 things a Shinigami can become proficient at: Zanjutsu (Sword Art), Hakuda (Hand-to-Hand), Hohou (Movement) and Kidou (Demon Arts). You also throw Shikai/Bankai/Zanpakutous together. You forget that with each Zanpakutou there lies different abilities. Kira's Zanpakutou doubles the weight of whatever it cuts, Byakuya's becomes tiny little blades, Rukia's creates a circle of ice which complete entraps an enemy...and so on. Teamwork, I agree with you. But you also have to look at the premise of the show. Naruto is a show based on teamwork, Bleach is not. That's like comparing two romance shows in which one is based on the relationship of a loving couple, and one that's like a harem show. They're related (romance), but the execution of its plot and devices would be different. One shows the development of one guy and one girl (primarily), and the other of one guy and many girls (eventually one guy and one girl, but not only) or vice-versa. There's also the concept of who's stronger in Naruto too. I mean sure, you have underdogs winning (Naruto vs Neji, Shikimaru vs basically whoever he fights), but at times you also have the stronger/strongest person winning anyways (Itachi, Orochimaru, etc).

This post has gotten long-winded, so I'll continue in another post. (Please excuse the double posting.)
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Old 2005-12-30, 12:33   Link #32
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And now on the actual fightings in the anime/manga. In Bleach the fightings are poorly made. We just see the charachter that makes a pose and release his power... then somewhere around the enemy there is an explosion. Or even worse the fightings are just concluded without showing what was going on in details. Scene of the start of the fight then cut and then scene of the end of the fight.Especially at the end of the SS saga. It's frustrating and stupid. I want to see actual fights like the awesome Lee vs Gaara or Neji vs Hinata.... oh man that were sweet animations....
I agree that some of the fights have been very well done in Naruto (basically any Rock Lee fight), but that again is simply due to the circumstances. Personally, the only fights I liked were Rock Lee fights because...he got his hands dirty. But you look at many other of the fights, they tend to be the same. Naruto always used Kage Bushin no Jutsu and Rasengan over and over (because that's like all he knows), and Sakura is always just using her brute strength. As for Sasuke, he's only got 3 moves that he constantly throws around: Chidori, Grand Fireball no Jutsu and his Sharingan. Even for the strategic fights, you can argue that it's always the same. Shikimaru always has to move his enemy around to where he can trap them with his Shadow Imitation no Jutsu. Sure, it's interesting to see how he does it, but in the end, it's still the same. Different packaging, same content.
You argue that the fights in Bleach are poorly done, well I find that at least there's some diversity, especially with all the different Zanpakutous and Kidous there are available. True, it's basically still people trying to injure/kill each other with swords, but each sword has different properties. I fail to see how Naruto is better in that aspect. Just replace 'sword' with 'jutsu', and it's the same. Even take that above sentence, and replace 'sword' with 'jutsu', and it applies to Naruto. Here, I'll even mark it in blue. True, it's basically still people trying to injure/kill each other with jutsus, but each jutsu has different properties.
You say Naruto is more interesting because you get to see how the fights end, but in all the fights the jutsus are essentially used in the same way. For me, in Bleach, we at least get to see some diversity in how the Zanpakutous are used. Just look at Byakuya's use of his Bankai vs Renji, and his use of Bankai vs Ichigo for reference.

Quote:
Many said that Bleach has only 60 eps compared to 160 of Naruto... well first take 30 eps of fillers away from naruto. So the Naruto anime main story is more than twice the bleach anime. Second compare the manga. Bleach at the end of this saga is around chapter 180 and Naruto after the save sasuke saga was around chapter 238 which is not twice the amount of the bleach chapters. You know why? Because the Bleach anime has a very fast pace compared to naruto. It was a wise decision to go fast with bleach anime episodes... just imagine to slow down the bleach fights that are already uncreative right now (no strategy or something to explain about the powers since they are almost the same).... it would be hell!
At the same time, I could also say you could speed up the Naruto fights. Just look at the fight with Sakura and Chiyo-baa vs Sasori. At the end of multiple chapters it kept exclaiming "The fight concludes! Who will be victorious?", but the fight dragged on for more chapters. And again with the no strategy thing...how about Kenpachi's fight against Tousen? How was that for strategy?

I have to leave for work now, I'll finish up when I get back (should be around 5 hours from now...maybe a little longer if I go out for dinner afterwards).

Quote:
We are talking about creativity?
Let's start talking about the world. Naruto's World is simply better. Not only it's more vast and has a more realistic feeling (not realism but realistic) that hints you that there is a history and an original geography but it breaks free from the good/evil cliche'. In bleach the shinigami are good and are right and the hollows are evil. In naruto the different nations are not classified in right and wrong. When Sand attacked Leaf was evil? No it was simply a war between two nations and Sand has its own reasons to attack. That's nice.
The ninja of kishimoto are not the historical ninja. But compare the two kind of ninja is stupid cause that world is different from ours and ninja have a different purpouse. They are soldier and serve as army in a world where gun powder is pretty useless. They have headbands to show their loyalty. The hidden villages serves as army of the nations and there is balance between the villages. There are minor flaws..(where the hell comes that tv from???) but nothing big.
Bleach's world is less creative and doesn't even makes sense. First, is just another spiritual world parallel to standard earth (we have seen tons of this already). Second it makes really no sense. How do the shinigami lives? do they have to eat? why they are spirtual being! Do they mate? How come Rukia has a sister? Do they age? What's the deal with shinigami city?....is just an empty labirinth with no apparent use. Why is the city japanese style and is said to exists since centuries? japanese culture is at most 1300years old... is the fist captain the first and only head that SS had in his history?
In the end you have to accept this as granted and not think too much about bleach setting...

I could go on forever but i want to conclude with one or two words about Naruto and Ichigo. They are both crappy charachters. Cliched and almost the same. Let's face it the japanese want that type of cocky main charachter. But there is thing that makes Naruto more likeable (or less annoying): he is actually weak. Naruto was never the more powerfull charachter around... everywhere he went there was someone that could have simply kick him (Kakashi, Sasuke, Oro, every jounin and so on). He was always underrated. Nobody really had big expectations about him... there were other charachters that captured more attention than him for most of the series (like sasuke or neji). There was a funny scene during the chuunin exam where naruto was knocked down and when he regained his senses Shikamaru said “he could never be the main charachter of a story”. On the other hand Ichigo really steal the spotlight from the other charachters. He is the center of the story, everyone has high hopes for him, he has to save the day, he is the one and only hero. Ishida, Chad and Inoue are not even worth of being support charachters: they didn't play a role in the story and nobody is interested in them.
Let alone the most annoying and stupid thing of Bleach: ichigo ridicolous power ups. Before entering SS he was nothing and in almost 10 days he has reached god-like power (when he stopped like nothing the execution of Rukia and the manga said that he has the power of 1 million shinigami swords... i was screaming!). After the hype about how powerfull the shinigami captains were... (they are hundreds years old being that do nothing else than fighting...) Ichigo trashed them in a few days... please! Naruto after years of training and fighting is propably just about strong as Kakashi.
Naruto is far from being perfect (and that curse seal level 1 and 2 is pure shit) but beats any day Bleach in a creativity confrontation.
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Old 2005-12-30, 12:52   Link #33
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another thing.

if it is comparable all jutsu's can be learned except for bloodline limits, now if we bleach this then it will be:

zanpaktou - bloodline limit

Kidou - jutsu

in bleach everyone can learn kidou as everyone can learn normal jutsu's in naruto.
while zanpaktou are more like bloodline jutsu, just that it isnt family based or anything.
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Old 2005-12-30, 13:03   Link #34
otacu
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Originally Posted by Dark`
To start off, I can't really take any kind of comparison post seriously when someone just nonchalantly throws around words like "no point arguing" before the discussion even begins. That's far too vain. True, there are many jutsus. However, do you really expect Kishimoto to go through with all of them? That'd take forever. Couple with the fact that many jutsus are known only by a certain village, and soon you hit a snag. I mean, all the ninjas in Konoha can only learn up to a certain amount of jutsus before they run out of things to learn, unless they somehow obtain the teachings of another village. So far, Orochimaru is the only individual to attempt that, so our protagonists are bound to run out sooner or later. However, it can be argued that the same will happen to Bleach, so the last point is moot. True, many jutsus, I'll give you that. But you overlooked something.
The point is any ninja has access to every jutsut that isn't secret or a specialty of a village. And everybody knows the basics.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark`
There is strategy in Naruto, but there's strategy in Bleach too. You're just not looking hard enough (people have already referenced some earlier fights). Furthermore, there's been plenty of the "powering up" you mentioned that's been shown in Naruto too. Naruto's fight against Neji, against Gaara, against Sasuke, against the Akatsuki. Sasuke's fight against the Sound 4, against Naruto. Chouji's fight against one of the Sound 4. You also forgot about the fact that there's something called Kidou (Demon Arts) in Bleach, and we've barely even tapped into that. Remember, Aizen mentioned 4 things a Shinigami can become proficient at: Zanjutsu (Sword Art), Hakuda (Hand-to-Hand), Hohou (Movement) and Kidou (Demon Arts). You also throw Shikai/Bankai/Zanpakutous together. You forget that with each Zanpakutou there lies different abilities. Kira's Zanpakutou doubles the weight of whatever it cuts, Byakuya's becomes tiny little blades, Rukia's creates a circle of ice which complete entraps an enemy...and so on.
Ehm i already said that you don't have to search too much for strategy or anything better in the Naruto fights (the charachter) cause the main charachter fights are always somewhat lacking (like ichigo's). The powering up is a feature that will always be in any anime of this genre.... as crappy as it is... it's better to have slow pace in power ups like in naruto than Bleach where in 10 days Ichigo becomes god.
No i don't forget that there are Demon Arts... it's only that in the 210 chapters so far we have barely see a couple times or so these "demon arts". And the Hakuda (hand to hand) too it's used just by Soi Fong and Youroichi is more like a special ability. I already said that 95% of the fighters in Bleach are almost the same.... just put Soi Fong and the rare kidou based fighters in the other 5%. So far shikai=1 ability... and the rare bankai=1 ability... it's not enough. So 1person=2abilities at best.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark`
Teamwork, I agree with you. But you also have to look at the premise of the show. Naruto is a show based on teamwork, Bleach is not. That's like comparing two romance shows in which one is based on the relationship of a loving couple, and one that's like a harem show. They're related (romance), but the execution of its plot and devices would be different. One shows the development of one guy and one girl (primarily), and the other of one guy and many girls (eventually one guy and one girl, but not only) or vice-versa. There's also the concept of who's stronger in Naruto too. I mean sure, you have underdogs winning (Naruto vs Neji, Shikimaru vs basically whoever he fights), but at times you also have the stronger/strongest person winning anyways (Itachi, Orochimaru, etc).
That's why Naruto has more creativity. It has teamwork an element many times overlooked in the genre. It has always been 1on1 fights in this kind of animes/manga so when there is a title that has teamwork i take it as an improvement. Lastly, it's not true that the strongest always win in Naruto. The rankings of powers are not clear as in Bleach where one fighter is stronger no matter what. For example Itachi feared to fight Jiraya, Orochimaru said that Itachi was stronger than him but still fought Jiraya even at disadvantage. There is no clear stronger. It depends on the opponents skills. Sharingan based abilities are pretty useless against Gai. It's more complicated than you think. In Bleach you can clearly make a ranking.
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Old 2005-12-30, 13:13   Link #35
NoSanninWa
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Originally Posted by otacu
So far shikai=1 ability... and the rare bankai=1 ability... it's not enough. So 1person=2abilities at best.
Actually we've already seen Byakuya demonstrate that a shikai or a bankai can have more than one related power. And how many powers does Shikimaru have? 2 powers both related to shadow controling? How many powers does anyone have? Only a few people have a lot of powers and almost all of them have very related powers.
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Old 2005-12-30, 13:43   Link #36
otacu
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Originally Posted by Dark`
I agree that some of the fights have been very well done in Naruto (basically any Rock Lee fight), but that again is simply due to the circumstances. Personally, the only fights I liked were Rock Lee fights because...he got his hands dirty. But you look at many other of the fights, they tend to be the same. Naruto always used Kage Bushin no Jutsu and Rasengan over and over (because that's like all he knows), and Sakura is always just using her brute strength. As for Sasuke, he's only got 3 moves that he constantly throws around: Chidori, Grand Fireball no Jutsu and his Sharingan. Even for the strategic fights, you can argue that it's always the same. Shikimaru always has to move his enemy around to where he can trap them with his Shadow Imitation no Jutsu. Sure, it's interesting to see how he does it, but in the end, it's still the same. Different packaging, same content.
You argue that the fights in Bleach are poorly done, well I find that at least there's some diversity, especially with all the different Zanpakutous and Kidous there are available. True, it's basically still people trying to injure/kill each other with swords, but each sword has different properties. I fail to see how Naruto is better in that aspect. Just replace 'sword' with 'jutsu', and it's the same. Even take that above sentence, and replace 'sword' with 'jutsu', and it applies to Naruto. Here, I'll even mark it in blue. True, it's basically still people trying to injure/kill each other with jutsus, but each jutsu has different properties.
True except that in bleach 1person=1sword=1ability.... and he always use that. In Naruto 1person=Xjutsu=Xabilities.
Not only that but there is heavy difference between the jutsus. A chidori is different from shadowbinding, or rasengan is different from a mind controlling jutsu, or an illusion, or a clone jutsu. It's variety and the jutsu are not only meant to direct attack (like in bleach) they can control opponents movements, make illusions, enhance defences, enhance movements, trick the opponents with clones.... In Bleach almost all the shikai are here to do direct damage. That for the "theory" part...
when we come down to the actual fightings naruto is more detailed and show how the fights evolve, every punch, every kick every jutsu. In bleach manga/anime many fights are left to our imagination.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark`
You say Naruto is more interesting because you get to see how the fights end, but in all the fights the jutsus are essentially used in the same way. For me, in Bleach, we at least get to see some diversity in how the Zanpakutous are used. Just look at Byakuya's use of his Bankai vs Renji, and his use of Bankai vs Ichigo for reference.
Byakuya is the exception that confirm the rule. It has been 210 chapters so far in the manga and i still have to see another anyone that can do more than just scream the name of his sword and just tap his powers while staying still.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark`
At the same time, I could also say you could speed up the Naruto fights. Just look at the fight with Sakura and Chiyo-baa vs Sasori. At the end of multiple chapters it kept exclaiming "The fight concludes! Who will be victorious?", but the fight dragged on for more chapters. And again with the no strategy thing...how about Kenpachi's fight against Tousen? How was that for strategy?
You mean the way that Kenpachi let himself stab to hit Tousen? That's strategy? That's stupidity of Tousen that stab him without knowing that much more than a single hit is needed to kill someone like Kenpachi. I would have been immensely appreciated this thing if Kenpachi then have died. Letting myself stabbed is not "strategy" is exchanging my life to hit the opponent. Without death it's stupid, it lose the drama factor. I mean... why doesn't Kempachi uses this perfect strategy everytime?

(ot)But that hint you another problem of Bleach.... nobody dies... there is blood flowing everywhere (is the author mocking me?) and nobody dies. Not a single one. Naruto has this same problem but there were some sweet deaths to enjoy along the story.... in Bleach... not even one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSanninWa
Actually we've already seen Byakuya demonstrate that a shikai or a bankai can have more than one related power. And how many powers does Shikimaru have? 2 powers both related to shadow controling? How many powers does anyone have? Only a few people have a lot of powers and almost all of them have very related powers.
Well Byakuya is the exception that confirm the rule. Shikamaru has two main shadow jutsu but he can even use the clone jutsu, the dispel jutsu and other basics jutsu. He is not limited. And everyone else is clearly like him.

In fact Bleach will sure be better if more powers related to bankai are showed to us or the kidou gain importance. Kidou are completely marginal in bleach and never used in combats. Again Byakuya use kidou but that's just him.
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Old 2005-12-30, 14:05   Link #37
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Originally Posted by otacu
When you think about creativity Naruto is clearly the winner and Bleach simply a well-done shounen manga/anime.

Simply put the shonen genre is already done and redone. The main "formula" has been done tons of times. To make a succesful shounen-fighting anime you take that formula and simply change charachters and settings and that's it. The story is always the same: Naruto and Bleach are the same. But naruto has managed to be a little more creative.

First the fightings. There is no point in arguing here: naruto's fightings are simply better. And i'm not talking about the fightings of the charachter Naruto, i'm talking about the others fightings. First of all the concept of jutsu is more interesting and has more variety. Every ninja is able to learn about every jutsu available (or something like that). That means that the charachters are not limited to one or two attack per charachter like in bleach (everyone has shikai and someone has bankai... and stop). Sure there is specialization cause it's more clever to know a limited amount of jutsu well than a large amount at a low level but everyone cast a large number of the most basic jutsu. And not only that. The jutsu are even creative. Sure we have stupid things like chidori and rasengan that are basically the same old "power" punch (something like db) but there are tons of other jutsu that are centered around shadows, mind, sand, internal chakra, cloning, illusions, movements.... you name it!
On the contrary in Bleach 95% of the shikai/bankai are just power strikes... how to explain better... just power ups to do more damage with rare exceptions.
In naruto there are specialized ninjas that are better at close range or long range fights, illusions or ninjutsu or taijutsu ... one ninja is more useful or less useful based on his skills and the opponent's type and the ground. In bleach.... you are simply stronger or weaker. The only few charachters that have a different style of fightings are Youruichi and Soi Fong, and Inoue and that medic captain (and they don't even fight). The others simply tap their power and throw the power at the enemy. There is no strategy or planning or thinking in the fights. The stronger just win. There was a funny preview episode of the anime were Renji and Ichigo argued about who is stronger... "i'm 10 times stronger" "yes? so i'm 100 times stronger than you!" "And i will get 1000 times stronger" and so on... it was meant to laugh but it really show the level of "fightings" in Bleach.
In Naruto there is more strategy or even team work (unheard in Bleach). Not only Shikamaru but remember Neji? Or Kiba? or Shino?or... well add almost everyone except naruto and few others.

And now on the actual fightings in the anime/manga. In Bleach the fightings are poorly made. We just see the charachter that makes a pose and release his power... then somewhere around the enemy there is an explosion. Or even worse the fightings are just concluded without showing what was going on in details. Scene of the start of the fight then cut and then scene of the end of the fight.Especially at the end of the SS saga. It's frustrating and stupid. I want to see actual fights like the awesome Lee vs Gaara or Neji vs Hinata.... oh man that were sweet animations....

Many said that Bleach has only 60 eps compared to 160 of Naruto... well first take 30 eps of fillers away from naruto. So the Naruto anime main story is more than twice the bleach anime. Second compare the manga. Bleach at the end of this saga is around chapter 180 and Naruto after the save sasuke saga was around chapter 238 which is not twice the amount of the bleach chapters. You know why? Because the Bleach anime has a very fast pace compared to naruto. It was a wise decision to go fast with bleach anime episodes... just imagine to slow down the bleach fights that are already uncreative right now (no strategy or something to explain about the powers since they are almost the same).... it would be hell!

We are talking about creativity?
Let's start talking about the world. Naruto's World is simply better. Not only it's more vast and has a more realistic feeling (not realism but realistic) that hints you that there is a history and an original geography but it breaks free from the good/evil cliche'. In bleach the shinigami are good and are right and the hollows are evil. In naruto the different nations are not classified in right and wrong. When Sand attacked Leaf was evil? No it was simply a war between two nations and Sand has its own reasons to attack. That's nice.
The ninja of kishimoto are not the historical ninja. But compare the two kind of ninja is stupid cause that world is different from ours and ninja have a different purpouse. They are soldier and serve as army in a world where gun powder is pretty useless. They have headbands to show their loyalty. The hidden villages serves as army of the nations and there is balance between the villages. There are minor flaws..(where the hell comes that tv from???) but nothing big.
Bleach's world is less creative and doesn't even makes sense. First, is just another spiritual world parallel to standard earth (we have seen tons of this already). Second it makes really no sense. How do the shinigami lives? do they have to eat? why they are spirtual being! Do they mate? How come Rukia has a sister? Do they age? What's the deal with shinigami city?....is just an empty labirinth with no apparent use. Why is the city japanese style and is said to exists since centuries? japanese culture is at most 1300years old... is the fist captain the first and only head that SS had in his history?
In the end you have to accept this as granted and not think too much about bleach setting...

I could go on forever but i want to conclude with one or two words about Naruto and Ichigo. They are both crappy charachters. Cliched and almost the same. Let's face it the japanese want that type of cocky main charachter. But there is thing that makes Naruto more likeable (or less annoying): he is actually weak. Naruto was never the more powerfull charachter around... everywhere he went there was someone that could have simply kick him (Kakashi, Sasuke, Oro, every jounin and so on). He was always underrated. Nobody really had big expectations about him... there were other charachters that captured more attention than him for most of the series (like sasuke or neji). There was a funny scene during the chuunin exam where naruto was knocked down and when he regained his senses Shikamaru said “he could never be the main charachter of a story”. On the other hand Ichigo really steal the spotlight from the other charachters. He is the center of the story, everyone has high hopes for him, he has to save the day, he is the one and only hero. Ishida, Chad and Inoue are not even worth of being support charachters: they didn't play a role in the story and nobody is interested in them.
Let alone the most annoying and stupid thing of Bleach: ichigo ridicolous power ups. Before entering SS he was nothing and in almost 10 days he has reached god-like power (when he stopped like nothing the execution of Rukia and the manga said that he has the power of 1 million shinigami swords... i was screaming!). After the hype about how powerfull the shinigami captains were... (they are hundreds years old being that do nothing else than fighting...) Ichigo trashed them in a few days... please! Naruto after years of training and fighting is propably just about strong as Kakashi.
Naruto is far from being perfect (and that curse seal level 1 and 2 is pure shit) but beats any day Bleach in a creativity confrontation.
Did you not read my previous post?! Naruto is not original nor creative. I want to tell you that Hunter x Hunter has almost the exact same concepts as Naruto, except it came before Naruto. So, therefore, naruto is not original! "Jutsu" are the exact counterpart to "Nen" in Hunter x Hunter. Sasuke's Sharingan is the same thing as Kurapicas....red eye thingy. Kurapica, the sole survivor of his clan seeks revenge from the Genei Ryodan, which is the same thing that Sasuke wants to do! The storyline, especially the Chuunin exam is so close to the Hunter Exam (in HXH). Although, some parts of the storyline differs from Naruto.

Therefore, it would make more sense to compare Hunter x Hunter to Bleach. But, hardly anyone has watched HXH because all of you are so engrossed with Naruto to try older anime. <-- that was a generalization.

I agree with some of your points regarding bleach.
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Old 2005-12-30, 14:58   Link #38
Jhereg42
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I don't think Bleach suffers from a lack of creativity at all, from the correct perspective.

First off, Bleach's humor is a lot more creative than Naruto's. Most of the humor in Naruto is rather slapstick, or revolves around Naruto's everpresent stupidity, where as the humor in bleach revolves around intelligent sarcasm and those little annoying character issues that we observe in the people around us. Kubo also does a very good job of making fun of his own genre. For example, Rukia's drawings were a clear poke (to me at least) at the early eps of Naruto where we got scroll diagrams of everything Sakura was explaining. Ichigo's reaction to those was the writer's own sarcasm bleeding through. Also, Kon makes fun of the typical animated "mascot" that has a tendancy to pop up in anime for the sole purpose of selling plushies. Don Kanonji making fun of the Power Rangers. I won't even go into Shinigami Highschool.

As far as the creativity in the various fights, I find I prefer Bleach's style to Naruto. They are not weighed down by flashbacks, and what they lack in flashy, fluffy techniques they make up for in humor (Ken vs Tousen) or drama (Ichi v. Renji, Soi Fong v. everyone's favorite kitten). Bleach's focus fightwise is on character (either definition or development) than on "Oh god, he used that cool technique to totally pwn the guy" moments that Naruto seems to have in abundance.
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Old 2005-12-30, 15:52   Link #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otacu
Byakuya is the exception that confirm the rule.
I hate it when people misuse this line - "The exception that proves the rule" is based on the fact one of the meanings of the word prove is 'to test', as in 'the exception tests the rule, finds it faulty and helps make a new one.' It was originally used to demonstrate scientific thinking in action, not that your idea was correct because something didn't fit! Arghh!

/rant
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Old 2005-12-30, 15:53   Link #40
otacu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acidflower
Did you not read my previous post?! Naruto is not original nor creative. I want to tell you that Hunter x Hunter has almost the exact same concepts as Naruto, except it came before Naruto. So, therefore, naruto is not original! "Jutsu" are the exact counterpart to "Nen" in Hunter x Hunter. Sasuke's Sharingan is the same thing as Kurapicas....red eye thingy. Kurapica, the sole survivor of his clan seeks revenge from the Genei Ryodan, which is the same thing that Sasuke wants to do! The storyline, especially the Chuunin exam is so close to the Hunter Exam (in HXH). Although, some parts of the storyline differs from Naruto.

Therefore, it would make more sense to compare Hunter x Hunter to Bleach. But, hardly anyone has watched HXH because all of you are so engrossed with Naruto to try older anime. <-- that was a generalization.

I agree with some of your points regarding bleach.
I have read it but still....
I have watched the first 30 episodes of HxH and you know what? I was bored to death (and never heard of this nen thing). Gon is one of the most annoying charachter ever (yes worse than naruto or ichigo). When he forced the ninja to retire it was the last insult and i returned the dvds to my friend(with insults included). Did i stopped too early? I mean... 30 episodes of pure boredom to gain a hunter license? mmmh maybe it gets better later... but i won't rewatch hxh even under torture. On the contrary i wouldn't mind watching naruto or bleach again.

But back on topic.... the point here is not the originality ... it's creativity! Sure naruto is not very original and follow the shounen formula (but not as much as Bleach) but HxH wasn't original either. Sasuke/Kurapica are the only survivor of the clan and seek revenge? do you think that HxH was the first to do this and it's original? This was done tons of times before. I don't really know about the power of Kurapica's eyes... but i doubt they have the same functionality of sharingan. It would be simple plagiarism.
And we are not discussing if nen or jutsu are original ... heck! they are the same as magic abilities in the end. The problem is not being original (that's very difficult today) but how creative and interesting the things are.

To return on topic Bleach is too focused on ichigo and has less abilities and different "powers" that almost look or do the same. There are kidou but aren't used. The fights are too static and cerimonial. The author after 210 chapters should make things more interesting since the story is average at best (like every other anime/manga in this genre) i expect better figths.
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