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Old 2005-12-30, 16:10   Link #41
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otacu
I don't really know about the power of Kurapica's eyes... but i doubt they have the same functionality of sharingan. It would be simple plagiarism.
If you reword a sentence so that it still contains the same idea and general terms, it isn't considered plagiarism. I presume a similar stance could be taken here. Just nitpicking.

In terms of overall story, Bleach is creative. There's unrest in the Netherworld - where else have you heard of this, with the exception of Christian mythology's 'War in Heaven'?

In terms of how it plays out, Bleach is relatively uncreative. In the beginning, fights were a bit more creative and unique. Now, frequently it feels more like we see some special factors, but it's a matter of who's more *something* - faster, stronger, or what have you. One could say that Aizen's deception falls out of this category, but the way it's presented just feels like he's displaying raw power.

The Naruto fans shouldn't feel that Naruto is any different, though. I used to watch Naruto, and I absolutely loved the battles. There were tactics involved and actual thought. Beyond a certain stage, it became less about tactics and more about who could simply overpower the other. This may be something that all shounen-type anime fall prey to. It's still enjoyable to watch a character power up and then go at it, but it isn't particularly original.

The only redeeming factor for powering up in Bleach is that Ichigo is frequently on the verge of losing the fight, but then he has some sort tof revelation that allows him to press onward. It helps to make him feel a little less overwhelming.
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Old 2005-12-30, 16:36   Link #42
otacu
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Originally Posted by Ledgem
In terms of overall story, Bleach is creative. There's unrest in the Netherworld - where else have you heard of this, with the exception of Christian mythology's 'War in Heaven'?
Angel Sanctuary? Saint Seiya Hades? and so on...
Just unrest in Netherworld isn't enough to be original.

And yes the more a series advance the more power up matters and less tactics and other factors. It's always like this and i hate it even in Naruto. But what makes me really angry is that Bleach is like that from the beginning.
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Old 2005-12-30, 19:05   Link #43
SuperKnuckles
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As much as I love Bleach (for the most part), it really isn't original in terms of its story. Much of its spirit world, spirit beings and all the fights between the multiple dimensions of spiritual beings is almost a near exact copy of Yu Yu Hakusho. Even in the swords and them being named and having supernatural powers of their own, it's almost like with the swords and other weapons in Inuyasha.

Character design-wise however, the show is very refreshing and cool. I don't think many characters can match the designs of Zaraki, Ichigo and others. Even if it all superficial to an extent, the characters are all pretty cool atleast.
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Old 2005-12-30, 19:12   Link #44
acidflower
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Originally Posted by otacu
I have read it but still....
I have watched the first 30 episodes of HxH and you know what? I was bored to death (and never heard of this nen thing). Gon is one of the most annoying charachter ever (yes worse than naruto or ichigo). When he forced the ninja to retire it was the last insult and i returned the dvds to my friend(with insults included). Did i stopped too early? I mean... 30 episodes of pure boredom to gain a hunter license? mmmh maybe it gets better later... but i won't rewatch hxh even under torture. On the contrary i wouldn't mind watching naruto or bleach again.

But back on topic.... the point here is not the originality ... it's creativity! Sure naruto is not very original and follow the shounen formula (but not as much as Bleach) but HxH wasn't original either. Sasuke/Kurapica are the only survivor of the clan and seek revenge? do you think that HxH was the first to do this and it's original? This was done tons of times before. I don't really know about the power of Kurapica's eyes... but i doubt they have the same functionality of sharingan. It would be simple plagiarism.
And we are not discussing if nen or jutsu are original ... heck! they are the same as magic abilities in the end. The problem is not being original (that's very difficult today) but how creative and interesting the things are.

To return on topic Bleach is too focused on ichigo and has less abilities and different "powers" that almost look or do the same. There are kidou but aren't used. The fights are too static and cerimonial. The author after 210 chapters should make things more interesting since the story is average at best (like every other anime/manga in this genre) i expect better figths.

The "nen" stuff and the whole arc on Kurapica getting his revenge and his friends helping him are in the OVA (at least I think so). Btw, could you please finish Hunter x Hunter and then give an opinion about it?

I feel its somewhat unfair to Hunter x Hunter that you've only seen 30 episodes of the total 62(?), and you haven't watched the (3-4?) ovas (each with an estimated 18 eps per ova).

Also, forgive me if I haven't seen as much anime as you, but I don't recall any other anime (so far) that has the exact same thing. If other do exist, please name them, I would be happy to watch them.

Also, the whole "sword" thing in Bleach has only so much room to extend. Its like Prince of Tennis, 130+ eps of pure tennis. The author tried to give some variety to the tennis "attacks", but now, I feel its at a point where it's gotten pointless to watch the show.

While in Naruto, Kishimoto masashi can come up with any random move and just throw chakra in there, and it works. Think about it, its somewhat similar to DBZ, power up your chakra/whatever, make it into a little..ball thingy, and either shoot it at your enemy (in DBZ's case) or have it attached to your palm and run at your enemy.

So, you can't really say in terms of attack creativity, that Bleach is less creative than Naruto.
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Old 2005-12-30, 21:39   Link #45
Dark`
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Originally Posted by otacu
The point is any ninja has access to every jutsut that isn't secret or a specialty of a village. And everybody knows the basics.
That isn't really every jutsu then. You can't use the word "every" and then have exclusions. However, in Bleach, all Shinigamis can learn Kidou, with no exception (well, besides lack of knowledge/willingness to learn).



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Ehm i already said that you don't have to search too much for strategy or anything better in the Naruto fights (the charachter) cause the main charachter fights are always somewhat lacking (like ichigo's). The powering up is a feature that will always be in any anime of this genre.... as crappy as it is... it's better to have slow pace in power ups like in naruto than Bleach where in 10 days Ichigo becomes god.
Ahem, no. Ichigo did not become God in 10 days, far from it. Since episode 1, we already knew he had a supreme amount of reiatsu (spirit energy). He just didn't know how to control it. So you're telling me that his gaining experience and knowledge of how to control his huge power is him becoming God? Well, God must no longer be an omnipotent being cause he just got his ass handed to him by Aizen.
I daresay Naruto's growth in strength is faster than that of Ichigo's, but I won't go there. It's more even to me. All shounen anime main character grows at an extraordinary speed, even Naruto. I fail to see how you can hold that against Bleach.

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No i don't forget that there are Demon Arts... it's only that in the 210 chapters so far we have barely see a couple times or so these "demon arts". And the Hakuda (hand to hand) too it's used just by Soi Fong and Youroichi is more like a special ability. I already said that 95% of the fighters in Bleach are almost the same.... just put Soi Fong and the rare kidou based fighters in the other 5%. So far shikai=1 ability... and the rare bankai=1 ability... it's not enough. So 1person=2abilities at best.
Okay...and how many different skills have Naruto shown off? Neji? Sasuke? Shikamaru? Sakura? Ino? Rock Lee? Yes, there may be more jutsus in Naruto than in Bleach, but does that really matter? I fail to see how it's better to have more of something, when it simply gets recycled all the time. Naruto has 2 jutsus that he uses all the time, Shikamaru has the one, Ino has the one, etc. No matter how many jutsus you have, once you enter repetition, it doesn't matter how many you have. Recycling 5 things over and over is basically no different than recycling 10 things over and over. Yes, you have double, but you still see it over and over. You say rare Hakuda and Kidou based fighters? Well, I'm tired of seeing episode after episode of Naruto using nothing but Kage Bushin no Jutsu and Rasengan. Sure, there's some variety, but how often do you see people like Shikamaru and the others compared to Naruto?
1 person = 2 abilities at best? I can apply that to Naruto as well. And who are you to say that it's not enough? Are you some anime police now? It may not be enough for you, but that's your opinion. So state it as such, don't go off and say things like this as fact.

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That's why Naruto has more creativity. It has teamwork an element many times overlooked in the genre. It has always been 1on1 fights in this kind of animes/manga so when there is a title that has teamwork i take it as an improvement. Lastly, it's not true that the strongest always win in Naruto. The rankings of powers are not clear as in Bleach where one fighter is stronger no matter what. For example Itachi feared to fight Jiraya, Orochimaru said that Itachi was stronger than him but still fought Jiraya even at disadvantage. There is no clear stronger. It depends on the opponents skills. Sharingan based abilities are pretty useless against Gai. It's more complicated than you think. In Bleach you can clearly make a ranking.
It's more complicated than what I think. Okay, I'll bite. How do you know what I'm thinking? Yes, I already gave Naruto it's props for the use of teams. However, when was the last time we saw a true team fight? That time against Zabuza, and then it was all one-on-one until the recent manga arc, which reinstated the team idea. So it was used twice, wow. You say there hasn't been a lot of Kidou in 210 chapters? Well...I can also say there hasn't been a whole lot of teamwork in 290 chapters either. And again, I want a clear example of when the stronger person hasn't won in Naruto. You say Itachi feared to fight Jiraiya, how can you prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt? There is such a thing as a tactical retreat in a situation that doesn't benefit you, it's not always like Naruto or Ichigo where they charge in regardless of the situation and hope for the best. Itachi knew that if he fought, he wouldn't have an advantage because Jiraiya got the first move. Retreating from sound strategy is different from retreating because you fear someone. As for Orochimaru vs Jiraiya, yes, he fought him when he was at a disadvantage. Well, you can argue that half the times Ichigo was in a fight, he was at a disadvantage. Or, even better, how about Ishida vs Mayuri? Ishida was paralyzed, couldn't do anything. How's that for disadvantage? That fight, in the end, came out a draw, so just like your example, there was no clear winner.

I don't care if you don't think Bleach is better than Naruto. My problem is with you busting into the Bleach forum and trying to pass off what you say as the gospel. Stuff like When you think about creativity Naruto is clearly the winner and Bleach simply a well-done shounen manga/anime. and There is no point in arguing here. As I've stated before, that's your OPINION, which you're entitled to. However, they way you're stating it, it seems like you're trying to pass it of as fact. You have your opinion, but not everyone agrees to it. But don't say things like "clear winner" and "no point arguing" like everything you say is the gospel, because guess what? It's not.
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[14:22] <@Dark`> =D
[14:22] <~lucifer> Then after I finish Genshiken S2 dvd rips, he's free game.
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Old 2005-12-30, 22:17   Link #46
Dark`
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otacu
True except that in bleach 1person=1sword=1ability.... and he always use that. In Naruto 1person=Xjutsu=Xabilities.
1 person = 1 sword, yes. But 1 ability? Geez, you're full of yourself. Oh, and besides the rare appearance of a character like Itachi, how many jutsus do most of the main characters have? Or rather, not have, but have shown. Naruto: Kage Bushin, Rasengan. (2) Sasuke: Sharingan, Chidori, Grand Fireball. (3) Shikamaru: Shadow Imitation. (1) Ino: Mind Control. (1) Most of the non-central cast have next to no jutsus, yet your comparison is constantly about how Naruto has more jutsu. Okay, so as an example, let's replace all of this. Instead of abilities (jutsus, Shikais, Bankais, etc), let's replace them with words. So just because one item (let's say an essay) has more words than other, the one with more words is automatically more creative? Quantity is not the important thing here. As well, again, the basis for the shows are different. It's not right to compare them directly. As I mentioned before, 2 different romance shows: one focuses on a couple, the other on a harem. The harem anime would, by all rights, have more girls (or guys) than the one that focuses on a couple. Does that automatically mean that the harem anime is more creative than the other one? Heck no. The basis of the two shows are different, how can you even compare them that way?

Quote:
Not only that but there is heavy difference between the jutsus. A chidori is different from shadowbinding, or rasengan is different from a mind controlling jutsu, or an illusion, or a clone jutsu. It's variety and the jutsu are not only meant to direct attack (like in bleach) they can control opponents movements, make illusions, enhance defences, enhance movements, trick the opponents with clones.... In Bleach almost all the shikai are here to do direct damage. That for the "theory" part...
when we come down to the actual fightings naruto is more detailed and show how the fights evolve, every punch, every kick every jutsu. In bleach manga/anime many fights are left to our imagination.
Okay...well, every Shikai and Bankai have been different so far. Hinamori's Shikai focuses on Kidou, as does the pretty-boy guy. Unohana's focuses on healing, Aizen's on illusion, Komamura's creates a big guy out of nowhere, Tousen's literally created a hole in the dimension where the opponent's various senses are rendered useless. How is that different from Naruto's varying jutsus that have different effects. Furthermore, if all the Shikai here do direct damage, I can also argue that all your Ninjutsu and Taijutsu is focused on direct attack. Genjutsu is the only one that does otherwise, while in terms of Shikai, there are various ones that don't simply "direct attack", and that's not including Kidou.
As for how the fights play out, that's up to personal preference. Just because you see everything that happens in a fight in one show, while another leaves some things up to your imagination (not a bad thing), that doesn't automatically make one show more creative than other. I fail to see how this contributes anything to the discussion.

Quote:
Byakuya is the exception that confirm the rule. It has been 210 chapters so far in the manga and i still have to see another anyone that can do more than just scream the name of his sword and just tap his powers while staying still.
As someone else said, what's an "exception to the rule"? You can't state something and when something shows up that proves otherwise, you say "Oh, well that's an exception." Anyone can use that to brush aside any evidence. I mean, technically speaking, I can brush off everything you mentioned that makes Naruto creative in your eyes and say "Oh, well that's the exception to the rule". That makes me the winner then, yay!

Quote:
You mean the way that Kenpachi let himself stab to hit Tousen? That's strategy? That's stupidity of Tousen that stab him without knowing that much more than a single hit is needed to kill someone like Kenpachi. I would have been immensely appreciated this thing if Kenpachi then have died. Letting myself stabbed is not "strategy" is exchanging my life to hit the opponent. Without death it's stupid, it lose the drama factor. I mean... why doesn't Kempachi uses this perfect strategy everytime?
How is that not strategy? From http://www.answers.com/strategy&r=67:

Quote:
2. A plan of action resulting from strategy or intended to accomplish a specific goal.
Hmm...plan of action? Allow Tousen's blade to make contact with his body in order to figure out where he is. Specific goal? Get a hold of Tousen to kick his ass/escape from his Bankai. Just because it doesn't fit your "ideal" image of strategy doesn't automatically mean it isn't a strategy. The world doesn't revolve around you.
And why is death a necessary element here for drama? Oh, I get it. Just because it doesn't fit your bill for drama, it's automatically wrong/bad. I could say the same thing about the Gaara/Rock Lee fight then. Just like Komamura interrupted to save Tousen, Gai interrupted to save Rock Lee. So to me (not really, just using this as an example), because Rock Lee didn't die there, it's stupid, and it lost its drama factor. See? The same thing happened in Naruto. Just that in your bias towards Naruto, it's okay there. But it's not okay for Bleach. And why would Kenpachi need to employ that strategy everytime? Different opponents require different strategy. He used that because Tousen disabled all his senses. Why would he need to use that strategy, say, against Komamura, where the situation is different. He has all the uses of his senses, so why would he need to do the same thing? That's like saying Zabuza should use the strategy in his fight against Kakashi's Sharingan all the time because it worked that one time. He used to mist to conceal himself and closed his eyes to avoid getting hypnotized. Well, if that's such a (to use your words) "perfect strategy", would he use it against Gai when fighting him? Not unless he's stupid. Why? Because the SITUATION IS DIFFERENT.

Edit: I forgot to mention the Sasuke/Naruto vs Haku fight. In that fight, Sasuke put his (more Naruto than his own actually) body on the line in an attempt to figure out the secret to Haku's Ice Mirrors. In that, perhaps due to pure instincts, he managed to consistently avoid getting hit in vital areas while keeping his eyes on Haku, hoping to find anything. He made Naruto keep doing Kage Bushin no Jutsu and attack so that Haku would counterattack, thus injuring them both. I fail to see how Sasuke's strategy of putting his and Naruto's body on the line in an attempt to figure out Haku's jutsu any different from Kenpachi putting his body on the line in an attempt to break out of Tousen's Bankai. The "trap", for lack of a better term, that both parties (Kenpachi and Sasuke/Naruto) may have been somewhat different, but the danger presented to both of them was equally as grave (death being the worse result). The only difference is that Kenpachi's strategy worked in the end, while Sasuke got knocked out which resulted in Naruto powering up to escape from Haku's Ice Mirrors. Sasuke also didn't die. You would've enjoyed immensely if Kenpachi had died in that fight? Well, I would've enjoyed immensely if Sasuke and/or Naruto died in that fight too. But...neither of them did die, did they? So if you can criticize Kenpachi's strategy and the fact that he didn't die (which in the end criticizes Bleach), you should criticize Sasuke's strategy and the fact that he and Naruto didn't die either (which would criticize Naruto).

Quote:
(ot)But that hint you another problem of Bleach.... nobody dies... there is blood flowing everywhere (is the author mocking me?) and nobody dies. Not a single one. Naruto has this same problem but there were some sweet deaths to enjoy along the story.... in Bleach... not even one.
Kaien? Ichigo's mom. Tousen's friend. The entirety of Central 46. There have been deaths in Bleach, just not of the main characters. How many central characters in Naruto have died? Yes, Zabuza and Haku died, but they were hardly central characters (arc characters at the most). And besides Yondaime, the only other death at all was of Sandaime. However, that was necessary to proceed the plot (Tsunade becoming the new Hokage, sealing Orochimaru's arms, weakening Konoha, etc). You can also argue that he wasn't that central of a character either. But, to an extent, I do agree. However, overall, there have been more deaths. Central 46 aside, there was the death of the Grand Fisher, numerous normal people (due to Yamii sucking out their souls), and 4 Arrancars. Excluding the fodder, there are still 5 named deaths during the series time frame...meaning not in flashbacks (Grand Fisher and 4 Arrancars), compared to 3 in Naruto (Zabuza, Haku, Sandaime). The only thing I will grant you is that a protagonist did die in Naruto, while so far no protagonist has died yet in Bleach (aside from Kaien...but time-wise, he died before the series started, and so doesn't count in this). I do agree with you to an extent though, far too many people are surving fatal wounds. That much, I do give you.

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Well Byakuya is the exception that confirm the rule. Shikamaru has two main shadow jutsu but he can even use the clone jutsu, the dispel jutsu and other basics jutsu. He is not limited. And everyone else is clearly like him.

In fact Bleach will sure be better if more powers related to bankai are showed to us or the kidou gain importance. Kidou are completely marginal in bleach and never used in combats. Again Byakuya use kidou but that's just him.
Well, you say that everyone else is clearly like him. Can Naruto use the dispel jutsu? He can't even perform Bushin no Jutsu, he only knows Kage Bushin because of the forbidden scroll. However, when have we seen him use them? Never, we've only seen him use the Shadow Imitation no Jutsu, and a modified version of it. I mean, at the same time, you can automatically assume that the vast majority of Shinigami from Soul Society know at least a few of the basic Kidou. You're willing to give the benefit of the doubt to Naruto, but not to Bleach. You're saying we've hardly seen Kidou from most of the characters...well, I've yet to see Sasuke, Chouji, Ino, Shikamaru, Neji, Shino, etc, use those "basic" jutsus you mentioned. Sure, they may know them, but they never use them. I can use the same argument: most of the Shinigami know them, they just never use them. And again, there have been at least 4 instances of Kidou being used in combat: Hinamori/Kira/Renji before joining the Gotei 13 vs Huge Hollow, Byakuya vs Ichigo, Aizen vs Komamura. Yes, Kidou is used marginally, but Byakuya is not the exception to the rule because he's not the only one to have ever included Kidou in a fight.
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[14:22] <~lucifer> Dark` has to stay around to QC Genshiken s2
[14:22] <~lucifer> since you guys won't
[14:22] <~lucifer> So he gets the blessing of "Least Faggoty".
[14:22] <@Dark`> =D
[14:22] <~lucifer> Then after I finish Genshiken S2 dvd rips, he's free game.
[14:22] <~lucifer> (Read: Canada's getting blown up.)

Last edited by Dark`; 2005-12-31 at 01:08.
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Old 2006-01-05, 11:43   Link #47
Eclipze
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Originally Posted by acidflower
Also, the whole "sword" thing in Bleach has only so much room to extend. Its like Prince of Tennis, 130+ eps of pure tennis. The author tried to give some variety to the tennis "attacks", but now, I feel its at a point where it's gotten pointless to watch the show.
Why the heck is PoT suddenly dragged into this and bashed? For god's sake, its Prince of Tennis. If you were looking for some dark element like a evil mastermind or sudden usage of magic to do a tennis shot, then you are watching the wrong anime.

PoT did one of the best job for a sports-shounen anime. Yes, you can argue how fake the shots are and how some of the shots that can be done are exaggerated, but they add entertainment value. Slam Dunk was boring for me because it was no different from watching an actual basketball match. (oh wow, that guy can do a dunk, so can mr xyz on sports TV).

FYI, it wasn't PURE TENNIS. There were character interaction, a simple yet believable storyline, explanations on how using a certain "spin" cause the ball to move in this way or that.

That PoT comment/bashing was just itching for a flame post.
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Old 2006-01-05, 11:50   Link #48
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Originally Posted by Eclipze
Why the heck is PoT suddenly dragged into this and bashed? For god's sake, its Prince of Tennis. If you were looking for some dark element like a evil mastermind or sudden usage of magic to do a tennis shot, then you are watching the wrong anime.

PoT did one of the best job for a sports-shounen anime. Yes, you can argue how fake the shots are and how some of the shots that can be done are exaggerated, but they add entertainment value. Slam Dunk was boring for me because it was no different from watching an actual basketball match. (oh wow, that guy can do a dunk, so can mr xyz on sports TV).

FYI, it wasn't PURE TENNIS. There were character interaction, a simple yet believable storyline, explanations on how using a certain "spin" cause the ball to move in this way or that.

That PoT comment/bashing was just itching for a flame post.
And as being a fan of PoT, I think I will help you to defend my bishies
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Old 2006-01-05, 16:44   Link #49
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Concerning Naruto and Bleach.. I don't think it matters how many and what kind of abilities they have, it's the way those abilities are used. On the first page someone mentioned Samurai Champloo. That anime has no special skills at all, other than swordsmanship to the extreme. In that anime it clearly matters how the skills are used when there is combat, however samurai champloo isn't centered around fights so it actually deserves no mention in a post like this.

But anyway, the skill usage. If for example naruto were to continuously use his shadow replication and rasengan (As he is doing now in the fillers >.>') it would get boring fast. But if he were to throw variations in those skills (as he sometimes does with shadow replication), the skill instantly gets more interesting. What I like about naruto, which is different per person, is that they explain everything they do. Some people enjoy straight action, without any hesitation in between. But in naruto they try to find a logical explanation to what is happening, and to why they are reacting with their skills. In that case some skills are capable of countering each other and some characters are natural enemies of others due to their skill usage and ability to counter someone elses skills.

In the bleach fighting scenes this is usually left out. The attack explanations still exist, but aren't as expanded. Also the counter attacks aren't really perfectly countering something. It's just "Oh wow, you're faster than my skill." This does speed up fights and allow one skill to be used in many different ways without being bound to strict rules.

But when comparing them, I'd say they are both equally worth watching. You have the standard main character traits: Never gives up, makes straight to the point speeches that impress others, accomplish things that in the end make people realise their mistakes or admiration for the person, always have something special (Ichigo started with a large amount of spirit energy, where naruto had his kyubi).

The thing that sometimes bothers me is that in naruto they explain the characters quite in depth, just to drop them so you barely hear anything about them anymore. I haven't read the manga, but I wonder if it wasn't for the fillers that Hinata wouldn't have made a comeback as a fighting character.

In bleach, however, they barely expand some characters, or just expand a little and then put it to a complete stop. Inoue hasn't accomplished much yet and neither has chad, even though their powers have great potential.

Anyway. Bleach is at episode 60+ and they had a quite slow start, on the contrary to naruto. If you take the time of days the characters have experienced in the anime, the bleach characters haven't even been in action for that long compared to the naruto characters. The storyline on both animes has been unvealing itself nicely (apart from naruto's fillers).

They both have their good and bad points and I seriously think that it depends on your own personal opinion of what you like more in an anime. Currently, however, the fillers are destroying everything that was built up in Naruto in my opinion. Naruto is turning into a wuss who always uses the same skills in the same way. He doesn't know anything and everyone else in his team always outsmarts him, has more skills than him and makes him look like a fool all the time.
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Old 2006-01-05, 17:52   Link #50
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If Bleach lacks creativity, I'd really like to see something ppl think DON'T lack creativity.

I think ppl just don't like fighing anime. I mean, they compare any kind of fighting anime to each other(Bleach to DBZ and Naruto, for crying out loud... they're not even close to being alike). I mean c'mon... when another fighting anime comes out, I'd even go as far as to expect ppl to say "AMG THEY'RE USING SWORDS! BLEACH RIPOFF!!!!11!1"

Bleach is as original as it'll get. If you think it is, get beamed up by aliens and watch what they're watching when you're getting probed. Heck, you ppl would even look for a reason to complain then...
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Old 2006-01-05, 17:59   Link #51
DrunkenRyder
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Naruto has how many real story line episodes? About 60 all together out of the 165+, just by watching the new Naruto Intro it will wrapp up the whole series for you.

Bleach however doesnt (though maybe it will).

Every episode of naruto is the same..KAGE BUSHIN NO JUTSU, RASENGAN!!.....don't deny it

And for those who say bleach lacks creativity, they should read the damn manga...
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Old 2006-01-06, 00:31   Link #52
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Wow, there are some really long-winded replies in this thread and after browsing through a couple of them most of what I had to say has been said.

I also think Naruto's *fights* at least are more creative than Bleach. One thing that worries me about Bleach is that 1 fight between two people is *great*, but later on in the series if you were to watch those same two people have a rematch or even see that one person fight someone else it may not be as exciting because you'd already know his/her shikai/bankai.

In Naruto fights, don't include Naruto fights, lol (as in Naruto himself). I could watch Kakashi fight again and again and still be impressed because none of his fights are the same. The only person I could think of in Bleach that could do this is Byakuya and maybe Aizen / Yamamoto / Urahara. He's one of the most well-balanced characters in the series, having a multitude of shikai and bankai abilities, *plus* the ability to use multiple kidous. If every character were like that in Bleach it would be awesome, but still I'm not complaining. Using this method allows people to say "Wow, I can't WAIT to see Aizen's, Gin's, Urahara's, (etc.) bankai"! You usually don't see someone in Naruto saying "Wow, I can't wait to see Kakashi use this super duper technique of his!" because you really don't know what to expect.

You can't tell me that when Yoruichi introduced bankai into the series that your heart didn't jump for joy saying "Oh man another release? I wonder what all of the captain's bankai's are?!!" Same thing when Urahara introduced the names of zanpakutous into the series.

So hmm, I stand contested. While writing this post I actually made myself feel different about the creativity of Bleach, lol. But okay - I'll stop here.

w00t!* (Bleach and Naruto pwn by the way)
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Old 2006-01-06, 01:28   Link #53
noxian
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actually, Byakuya isn't the exception.
Renji has shown off different abilities to his sword.
so has Ichigo technically. granted some of them weren't under his control, forexample when his inner hollow took over, but nonetheless.
sui feng showed of her shikai ability, and h2h combat.
hmmm...Aizen used his sword for creating a fake body, (how it looked to me)creating illusion decoys in combat
Ikkaku's shapechanging sword, sure he still uses a pretty in your face physical style of combat but one could attribute that to his personality. one should be able to figure out 1 sword, sword and sheath, naginata, 3 section staff (iirc) operate differently though.

its true that the shikai/bankai are power-ups but if you're saying Bleach bogs down to a DBZ type power-fest, you need to reread/rewatch it. with the exception of Ichigo, Kenpachi, maybe Komamura (though we haven't really seen his bankai in action); tehre's always a definite strategic use for the shikai/bankai (this is assuming we're not going to bog down into a debate on what you consider "strategy").
Byakuya's shikai/bankai are near unblockable attacks
Aizen's sword deceives his opponents perception, he even uses his sword to fake having a different type of sword (its been a while but iirc, he had everyone thinking his sword was a water-elemental sword)
Tousen outright removes their perception except touch, but i'd like to hear how Aizen/and Tousen's bankai are merely power-ups
Sui Feng's shikai didn't even power her up noticeably. it was purely a special effect shikai that provided her with an instant-kill method
Kurotsuchi's shikai/bankai poisoned and weakened his opponents
Matsumoto clearly showed how her shikai could be used to avoid Kira's shikai effect, since...thats exactly how she used it
speaking of Kira, that too seemed less of a power-up and than a power-down for his opponent
Yumichika's was sort of apower-up i suppose...at the expense of his opponent

none of this says Bleach is more or less creative than Naruto (though my personal opinion is Naruto isn't even that good, but i'll admit part of that is i just can't get past how much i dislike Naruto himself. i have the same problem with WC3 and Arthas...), but if you say Byakuya is the only person to use his sword in a variety of ways i'd have to disagree.
and i'd also have to disagree that shikai/bankai is a mere power-up. some of them haven't even displayed a noticeable "power-up" effect. and most of them have a somewhat clear (depending on which character) use to their effects (once again; things like poison, illusion, energy draining)

hmmm...what else...
one might point out you're basically comparing a samurai manga/anime to a ninja manga/anime. there's a pretty big difference in fight style philosophy...
Naruto uses lots of tricks because that's (in the popular mythology) what ninja's do. smoke bombs, wooden decoys, magical ninja powers...
samurai-oriented action scenes are going to be more about face to face duels.
its like how a Jet Li movie is going to be different than a Jean Claude Van Dam movie. but (barring open bias) its pretty hard to say one is "better" than the other...Jet Li's fights are going to be acrobatic, fast Chinese-MA style scenes. JCVD's are going to show off a kickboxing style. i suspect a kickboxing fanatic might find JCVD's fights more interesting (saying this from the assumption that chinese/japanese MA are all the rage)
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Old 2006-01-06, 02:35   Link #54
Eclipze
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For people who say that Naruto is more about DBZ ("powerup, defeat enemy")....

Actually, "power up" scenes appear more often in Bleach.

In Bleach:
Ichigo--->release bankai and more reitsu(sp?) which is essentially like power-ups in DBZ.

Same goes for captains (like kenpachi releasing his eye-patch)....but the thing is, its not those non-sense powerups like DBZ ones.

In Naruto:
I can only think of Naruto releasing Kyuubi as a "power up" scene. Other than that, there have been no significant "power ups" that I can think of.

All in all, both are good shounen series
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Old 2006-01-06, 09:02   Link #55
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Creative- totally unexpected ending
UnCreative- Everyone lives happily ever after

It would be more constructive to kill off at least some of the characters
instead everyone surviving being stabbed and slashed at least 1000 times before the series ends
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Old 2006-01-06, 15:42   Link #56
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Ooof, i dislike it quite a bit when Bleach gets compared to another show like Naruto or DBZ. In that sense, of COURSE it's not that creative.

What's important to me in this show are two things: presentation and enjoyment. The presentation is very well done, which keeps me hooked on the show. Enjoyment also comes along with this, which is the MAIN reason i like this show. Not because it's something new or anything! It's something that a lot of us would want to play out in our heads... like the ideal situations where you know who the winner will be. Again, presentation is important since if you already know the outcome, you really want to see HOW it happens.
All the things in Bleach have been said and done. Hell, Bleach was almost not aired because people complained that it was too much like Yu Yu Hakasho. But which show is more enjoyable to me? Bleach, because of the presentation of characters, comedy, and plot events that hook me into the show. Another show can have the exact same plot line and characters, but if things aren't done right, the show can go down the tubes. (This may be why i like the manga better, since there are fewer factors that come into play, including music, animation, and voice acting.) It's not easy to compare shows and then explain how creative it is... but as long as the show is enjoyable, because the old elements of old shows are used WELL, then i have no problems with the show.
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Old 2006-01-06, 16:45   Link #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclipze
Why the heck is PoT suddenly dragged into this and bashed? For god's sake, its Prince of Tennis. If you were looking for some dark element like a evil mastermind or sudden usage of magic to do a tennis shot, then you are watching the wrong anime.

PoT did one of the best job for a sports-shounen anime. Yes, you can argue how fake the shots are and how some of the shots that can be done are exaggerated, but they add entertainment value. Slam Dunk was boring for me because it was no different from watching an actual basketball match. (oh wow, that guy can do a dunk, so can mr xyz on sports TV).

FYI, it wasn't PURE TENNIS. There were character interaction, a simple yet believable storyline, explanations on how using a certain "spin" cause the ball to move in this way or that.

That PoT comment/bashing was just itching for a flame post.

Also, where in my post did I imply that the shots "how fake the shots are and how some of the shots that can be done are exaggerated"? I just said the excitement of Tennis can only go so far. The intention of my post was not to bash PoT, but if you would like, I can start now.
My point was that the excitement of swords can only go so far, while with jutsus, anything is possible. If reiatsu could summon giant frogs, I think Bleach would also grow in popularity.

Oh yes, I'd like to see you try scoring a basket, heck I'd like to see you even attempt to hit the backboard.

edit: I'm entitled to have my opinion that I feel there is no point of watching Prince of Tennis anymore.

edit2: My english must be more incomprehensible then I thought, please tell me where I stated that I was looking for "some dark element like a evil mastermind or sudden usage of magic". Please reread my previous post, my post simply said that the excitement of tennis (I can only speak for myself) can only go so far.
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Old 2006-01-06, 18:32   Link #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Small One
That's because both series are suffering from a shounen-syndrome: They can't let main characters die. Or better: They won't let them die.

Now this only leaves those two options:
  • No progress for most of the side characters, and
  • No appearances of the side characters
If all the characters would get equally stronger and got the same amount of screentime, the enemies should be much more powerful and greater in their number, which would even accelerate the spiral of power-ups.
Dude, they're MAIN CHARACTERS. They supposed to live. If the main chars wasn't supposed to live, they wouldn't be the main chars, now would they? And if you think the side characters aren't progressing, you need to get your eyes checked, especially during the times they devote ENTIRE EPISODES about them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowsoul
Creative- totally unexpected ending
UnCreative- Everyone lives happily ever after
Are you saying that someone has to DIE for the ending to be creative...?
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Old 2006-01-06, 20:09   Link #59
NoSanninWa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acidflower
My point was that the excitement of swords can only go so far, while with jutsus, anything is possible. If reiatsu could summon giant frogs, I think Bleach would also grow in popularity.
It's true. I can't tell you how many times while watching Bleach I thought, "What this scene really needs is a giant frog."

I don't know why people are hung up with the idea that powers summoned from swords are inferior to powers summoned without swords. Renji summoned a giant bone snake thing and Konomura summoned a sword weilding giant. Are these inferior to frogs? Actually, I hate to mention it but isn't summoning frogs and slugs kinda silly? Giant snakes can be a bit cool, but frogs and slugs?!

(Yes, I know that the reason for frogs and slugs is because Kishimoto-sensei is copying the theme from a well known Japanese novel in which there are snake ninja, frog ninja and slug ninja. This doesn't change the fact that a giant slug is just plain silly looking instead of scary. And frogs aren't much more impressive, even when the hold a sword the size of a telephone pole.)
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Old 2006-01-07, 12:44   Link #60
Eclipze
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acidflower
Also, where in my post did I imply that the shots "how fake the shots are and how some of the shots that can be done are exaggerated"? I just said the excitement of Tennis can only go so far. The intention of my post was not to bash PoT, but if you would like, I can start now.
My point was that the excitement of swords can only go so far, while with jutsus, anything is possible. If reiatsu could summon giant frogs, I think Bleach would also grow in popularity.

Oh yes, I'd like to see you try scoring a basket, heck I'd like to see you even attempt to hit the backboard.

edit: I'm entitled to have my opinion that I feel there is no point of watching Prince of Tennis anymore.

edit2: My english must be more incomprehensible then I thought, please tell me where I stated that I was looking for "some dark element like a evil mastermind or sudden usage of magic". Please reread my previous post, my post simply said that the excitement of tennis (I can only speak for myself) can only go so far.
The thing is this: the way you said things, you expect something else that didnt involved tennis in a tennis-shounen anime. Wtf?

Its really no different from saying that FMA isnt worth your time watching because the entire series is about alchemists. Or for another view, you stop watching soccer because its just X years of pure soccer. And you say its isnt worth watching because thats what they are suppose to show? I dont get what you are trying to say.

It is alot more sensible for people to say: "I dont like PoT because I think having an anime from a sport genre is stupid" than "I stopped watching the tennis anime because after 130+ episodes, it had nothing except tennis action".

Line #2 is a self-contradictory line. You expect something more from something that is suppose to only contain one element. Oh, lets give a naruto example then:
"I stopped watching naruto after XX episodes because it was XX episodes of pure ninja-related action".

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, so am I. I was defending one of my fav. animes, and thats wrong I suppose?

EDIT: Ah yes, found another one: "I've stopped watching Gundam (insert series) because after XX episodes, it had nothing except gundams".

Last edited by Eclipze; 2006-01-07 at 13:04.
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