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Old 2011-12-17, 22:34   Link #2241
RX-78GP04G Gerbera
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Well, to be fair, Nicol was pretty much performing a kamikazi as it is with the way he just threw himself straight at Kira in order to protect Athrun (just like Tolle did at Athrun soon after; neither of them even seeming to try to dodge).

As for Heinne, that wasn't really totally his fault. It was partially due to his taking his attention off of his surroundings because of a change in the situation, but Kira caused it all with his unnecessary interference and, as Athrun puts it, bringing nothing but chaos to the battlefield. If Kira hadn't just dove right into it and the battle just went as it was going before, Heinne probably would've come out of it fine. Always a chance he couldn't, but those chances would be MUCH lower than after Kira showed up and caused all that confusion.


As for Luna, it would've helped if there was some more data stuff that could've given scores in their class...
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Old 2011-12-17, 22:40   Link #2242
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Just admit that Athrun is a war god, he shoots people in the face when he helps Lacus escape the theater, he shoots people in the face when he and Lacus meets Meer. His simply a one man killing machine. Whereas Kira's father only put stats in the "mecha combat" category Athrun's father made sure his son had high categories in everything.
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Old 2011-12-17, 23:51   Link #2243
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Athrun when on foot is also lucky that most of his opponents couldnt hit the broadside of a barn even with unlimited ammo. But nothing out of the norm in anime shows
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Old 2011-12-18, 00:34   Link #2244
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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
Athrun when on foot is also lucky that most of his opponents couldnt hit the broadside of a barn even with unlimited ammo. But nothing out of the norm in anime shows
Well, not just anime shows, plenty of live action shows as well.
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Old 2011-12-18, 00:50   Link #2245
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Athrun when on foot is also lucky that most of his opponents couldnt hit the broadside of a barn even with unlimited ammo. But nothing out of the norm in anime shows
As monster stated that's pretty much a standard for fiction, no one wants to watch or read something where the hero gets shot as soon as he enters a battle.
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Old 2011-12-18, 01:37   Link #2246
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@charred Knight

There are plenty of fiction works that the hero does get shot in battle some even do die from mortal wounds. You should be very aware of this.

I personally don't appreciate when opponents skills are *dumb-downed* when a MC is involved that is all.
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Old 2011-12-18, 01:50   Link #2247
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Especially if the opponent(s) is shown to be able to perform just as well, if not better than that MC at other times.

SEED/SEED Destiny has shown even grunts being able to fight pretty decently against eachother, actually moving around and all. But when Kira or some other MC comes in...well...they decide to just stand/float there like static targets on a shooting range...
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Old 2011-12-18, 02:10   Link #2248
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The grunts in SEED/Destiny are pretty awful overall. They don't have any tactics, they just either float in space wildly firing their weapons at whatever is in range or they charge straight at ships. They tend to panic and get emotional too, it's a recipe for disaster.
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Old 2011-12-18, 11:39   Link #2249
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The grunts in SEED/Destiny are pretty awful overall. They don't have any tactics, they just either float in space wildly firing their weapons at whatever is in range or they charge straight at ships. They tend to panic and get emotional too, it's a recipe for disaster.
They have tactics, they don't wildly fire either- wildly fire implies they're not deathly accurate and the fact that 99.9% of the time even the MC has to evade kind of throws water on that. And rushing ships isn't really ever a bad idea unless it's a MC ship and well...that happens in every series- and well.

Simply put, SEED Grunts aren't really all that worse then any other grunt and are much better then the grunts in MSG for example. Or Wing. Probably 00 too.
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Old 2011-12-18, 15:11   Link #2250
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Eh...not really...SEED/SEED Destiny had to be the worst I've ever seen.

At least various UC-era grunts have given MCs a bit of a challenge from time to time and have even caught them off-guard several times where they could have died were it not for the help of another character or MC.

Never had that happened in SEED/SEED Destiny really in terms of MS combat. It was usually a named antagonist that did so, not a grunt.
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Old 2011-12-18, 15:49   Link #2251
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what the chance AGE will be more controversial?
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Old 2011-12-18, 16:11   Link #2252
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Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera View Post
Eh...not really...SEED/SEED Destiny had to be the worst I've ever seen.

At least various UC-era grunts have given MCs a bit of a challenge from time to time and have even caught them off-guard several times where they could have died were it not for the help of another character or MC.

Never had that happened in SEED/SEED Destiny really in terms of MS combat. It was usually a named antagonist that did so, not a grunt.

That's because of the difference in the way battles are done, after the One Year War you don't have anymore large scale battles, and even then the only one really shown in the first anime was the battle of Solomon, and A Baoa Qu. In Gundam Seed, and Gundam Seed Destiny, there is a lot more large scale battles like Invasion of Orb, or the battle in Alaska. With battles on a smaller scale it's much easier to show your opponents as competent. As for the level of Grunts, I would put them as much higher than the grunts in Gundam Wing or Gundam 00, the grunts in Gundam seed can at least shoot down opponents.
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Old 2011-12-18, 16:43   Link #2253
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At least various UC-era grunts have given MCs a bit of a challenge from time to time and have even caught them off-guard several times where they could have died were it not for the help of another character or MC.
I can't recall that ever happening in MSG, not without some prompting from some veteran or another or their direct assistance. An average Zaku never bothers Amuro, not even the very, very first time he steps into the Gundam and has pretty much no idea what to do. I'm not all that up on 00, but in the first season IIRC it was strategy that allowed the grunts to survive anytime they did- and they never contributed to the strategy themselves and in the second season well...everyone had a Gundam anyway(more or less).

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Never had that happened in SEED/SEED Destiny really in terms of MS combat. It was usually a named antagonist that did so, not a grunt.
Desert Ark, the GoohN's in SEED...I recall a pack of Windam's nearly getting Shinn and eventually Luna later on.
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Old 2011-12-18, 17:46   Link #2254
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I never specifically MSG. I said the UC-era.

A couple times being in The 08th MS Team with Karen nearly getting killed twice; once by the Acguy from the lake (took off her Gundam's head and smashed its cockpit in a bit and only when it got distracted by Michel with the hover truck and having Eledore manually assisting her to aim her beam rifle did she manage to luckily take it down) and the 2nd time being a Dom that would've stabbed her through with its heat saber had the Guntank she was guarding not taken it out.

You also had Sanders get his Gundam disabled by having its leg shot out by a grunt Magella Attack unit.

Emma had to pull back on the Jaburo operation when her Rick Dias was too damaged to survive atmospheric re-entry.

And so on.

For SEED and SEED Destiny, quite a bit wasn't seen either, even in large scale battles. Most times we do see, it's either grunt vs. grunt and NOT vs. MCs, much less giving them any real trouble at all or one side owning the other in some way, like Alaska was just having the EA forces abandoned there being mopped away by the invading ZAFT forces. And with Orb, it was constantly just showing Asagi, Mayura, and Juri firing at Strike Daggers with beams and explosions around them while the real focus was on Kira and Mwu (and Athrun).

I'm certain that soldiers are constantly trained to, even when taken by surprise or some new thing shows up, NEVER to simply stand around in shock, look around in a panic, and such, but to move, drop down, get to cover, evasive maneuvers (in vehicles), something, as being stock still out in the open is the absolute worst thing you could do when fired upon, and grunts in SEED/SEED Destiny do that CONSTANTLY against a MC, allowing them to be picked off like easy target practice.

Grunts we see in UC have at least done THAT much a lot more often than SEED/SEED Destiny ones, even against Mobile Armors like the Neue Ziel.
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"Hatred is the root of all war! That's common sense, boy!" - Anavel Gato, The Nightmare of Solomon
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Old 2011-12-18, 18:29   Link #2255
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The 08th MS Team where supposed to be grunt soldiers, that was the point of the ova. Char would have mopped the floor with the entire team most likely in a minute. The only Ace in that entire OVA was Norris Packard.
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Old 2011-12-18, 19:19   Link #2256
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They were still MCs as well though, so "grunt" in terms of overall military standing in-universe, but not SO much in terms of being totally nameless, unknown people (to us anyway) who, if they die, we wouldn't care like so many others, much less SEED/SEED Destiny, so they can't exactly be compared.
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Old 2011-12-18, 20:30   Link #2257
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A couple times being in The 08th MS Team with Karen nearly getting killed twice; once by the Acguy from the lake (took off her Gundam's head and smashed its cockpit in a bit and only when it got distracted by Michel with the hover truck and having Eledore manually assisting her to aim her beam rifle did she manage to luckily take it down) and the 2nd time being a Dom that would've stabbed her through with its heat saber had the Guntank she was guarding not taken it out.

You also had Sanders get his Gundam disabled by having its leg shot out by a grunt Magella Attack unit.
You named pilots who aren't supposed to be on the level of people like Kira, Shinn, Athrun, Amuro and so forth into the names of the "Super Aces". None of them are particularly special so far as piloting go- so much so that Sanders ability to be the lone survivor of his Squad is the most miraculous thing about the whole group.

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For SEED and SEED Destiny, quite a bit wasn't seen either, even in large scale battles. Most times we do see, it's either grunt vs. grunt and NOT vs. MCs, much less giving them any real trouble at all or one side owning the other in some way, like Alaska was just having the EA forces abandoned there being mopped away by the invading ZAFT forces. And with Orb, it was constantly just showing Asagi, Mayura, and Juri firing at Strike Daggers with beams and explosions around them while the real focus was on Kira and Mwu (and Athrun).
You see average M1's all the time, they're not focused on as much as the Main and supporting cast. Then again, I'd say if you expect a bunch of random throwaway pilots and machines to be focused on more then the support and main cast your being a little silly. Anyway, things get a lot more even when you see the EA fielding Daggers, especially their first appearance...where they mop they turn the tide until the EMP bombs go off.

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I'm certain that soldiers are constantly trained to, even when taken by surprise or some new thing shows up, NEVER to simply stand around in shock, look around in a panic, and such, but to move, drop down, get to cover, evasive maneuvers (in vehicles), something, as being stock still out in the open is the absolute worst thing you could do when fired upon, and grunts in SEED/SEED Destiny do that CONSTANTLY against a MC, allowing them to be picked off like easy target practice.
They fire back, in the air there isn't much for cover and since the Freedom is in the air every time it fires there isn't much cover to find one way or the other. They only really appear surprised(the cut-ins) once they or their comrades start getting their arms, legs, heads or guns picked off.
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Old 2011-12-18, 20:38   Link #2258
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In the large scale battles such as the invasion of Orb and Jaqin Due the grunts behave the same. They hover in the air or play stationary turret in the ground waiting to be shot. We can't justify their piss poor performance.

I just went back and rewatched a couple of scenes from Destiny around the time of hte Orb invasion and all I saw was Astrays sitting there firing at misiles and getting blown up, and then Goufs hovering in the air waiting for Cagalli to shoot them down. One of the guys who I think was a red coat is walking around and doesn't even realize he's been shot until his mobile suit starts blowing up around him. Seriously man, where the hell are the sensors? We've had ways to tell when a plane or tank is being locked on by an infrared targeting system, or a laser one since the 1960 or so, maybe even earlier. Apparently in CE they don't have that anymore, there's no way to tell when someone has you locked on, or heck that they're even near you it seems....Then there's Freedom, for some reason Kira is so good that all those mobile suits he's locking on to decide to sit there and not move and take evasive maneuvers to shake off his aim...

Then there's the issue of mental health. Whether it be ZAFT or the Alliance they all seem to be psychopaths who'd like nothing more than to kill a whole bunch of the other guys. The guys who launch the nukes just going nuts just before firing, and then the ZAFTies going apeshit and killing guys trying to retreat and disabled suits...That kind of behavior is unacceptable from a professional soldier. Like I said before, they are way too emotional and that plays a big factor into their combat performance.
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Old 2011-12-18, 21:34   Link #2259
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The only way I'd see it justified, at least by the end of SEED, is because of the guys being completely green and, like how Zeon did in MSG, simply yanked them up and threw them out onto the battlefield simply to buffer their own numbers.

In terms of SEED Destiny though, that can't be the reason as it's been 2 years since the end of SEED. A lot of the aforementioned actions are still done mostly by adults too outside of the Druggies/Extendeds and such...
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Old 2011-12-19, 00:59   Link #2260
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Off topic.

I stopped getting involved in grunt arguments years ago but i do have a question. If freedom has a functioning targeting/tracking system onboard and used at will, what is preventing other militaries from using similar electronic devices? If they are installed how does freedom somehow manages to appear out of nowhere?

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Then there's the issue of mental health. Whether it be ZAFT or the Alliance they all seem to be psychopaths who'd like nothing more than to kill a whole bunch of the other guys. The guys who launch the nukes just going nuts just before firing, and then the ZAFTies going apeshit and killing guys trying to retreat and disabled suits...
When your dealing with 2 sides with the similar set mentalities of using excessive force to wipe each other out or at least cripple, and going as far as using WMD's to achieve such objective, which is a very deliberate unpopular view, then you add the MAIN 3rd party with a pop princess preaching Peace/justice/freedom take a guess which side the viewers would inclined to support?

Last edited by winter45; 2011-12-19 at 01:34.
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