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Old 2012-01-21, 22:34   Link #2301
winter45
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I do disagree, war for peace is a valid reason to promote peace in war. Like as i stated, it may appear questionable and rightfully so.
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Old 2012-01-21, 22:43   Link #2302
monster
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Sure, you can fight for peace, but when I say promoting peace, I meant publicly denying that war is the only solution and trying to find another way to resolve the conflict before a war is declared.
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Old 2012-01-21, 22:46   Link #2303
RX-78GP04G Gerbera
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It's like how Noin said in Endless Waltz, "It's much easier to obtain peace than it is maintain it".

We saw how effective Relena's whole total pacifism stance was after all (no weapons and all that stuff)... x_x
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Old 2012-01-21, 22:48   Link #2304
winter45
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@monster

Even tho very generalized i do see your point clearer.

@RX-78GP04G Gerbera

Considering how i view the CE population after destiny, maintain it wont be much of an issue...
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Old 2012-01-21, 23:03   Link #2305
NoemiChan
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The Peace Issue in Gundam Seed and Gundam Wing is that...

"There is no absolute peace as long as the other exist."
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Old 2012-01-22, 04:33   Link #2306
Gundamx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
You still have missed my point...

ill elaborate.. It wouldnt matter if orb is winning. What does matter on AA crew minds that ORB must survive.

Regardless of orb situation (winning or loosing) If Minerva all the sudden gets the upper hand regardless outnumbered which concludes ORB defeat is imminent. AA will step in for ORBS favor. If AA cannot disable Minerva they will prioritize ORB safety at the expense of Minerva.
How do you know something that never happen?
From what I saw they stop Orb even though they have they have advantage (second fight)
In other word they will try to stop the war between Orb Vs Zaft regardless of the winner.
( Don't forget that AA have people from Planet and EA and Orb.)

Also about Kira killing policy, from what I understand is that he would rather not to kill his enemy, but that doesn't mean he will not kill at all.
(Yeah he ignore shine... Maybe because he was after his life but Kira did kill Stella when she was randomly massacring civilians and Rau after he murder Flly.)
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Old 2012-01-22, 07:40   Link #2307
winter45
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Originally Posted by Gundamx View Post
From what I saw they stop Orb even though they have they have advantage (second fight)
In other word they will try to stop the war between Orb Vs Zaft regardless of the winner.
( Don't forget that AA have people from Planet and EA and Orb.)
Never stated or given the notion that they will not rather first neutralize all parties involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gundamx View Post
How do you know something that never happen?
Alrighty..... How many ORB forces personal has kira directly killed? I can think of huge number of ZERO...

How many ZAFT personal has kira killed directly? I can safely say more than zero.

Conclusion using this data that i can easily presume that ORB personal safety have priority over ZAFT when neutralizing measures are taken in effect.
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Old 2012-01-22, 08:18   Link #2308
Gundamx
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Alrighty..... How many ORB forces personal has kira directly killed? I can think of huge number of ZERO...

How many ZAFT personal has kira killed directly? I can safely say more than zero.

Conclusion using this data that i can easily presume that ORB personal safety have priority over ZAFT when neutralizing measures are taken in effect.
In Destiny?
ZAFT = 0
Yeah he killed people from Zaft/EA/Orb in Destiny but not directly.
(Just because he only hit their camera doesn't mean that they are 100% safe,
same with Minerva main weapon.)

EA = 1 (Stella).
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Old 2012-01-22, 08:56   Link #2309
winter45
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Your playing with semantics to favor your point.



Life fact: If you are the one directly by your actions caused death(s) you are the one directly responsible.

In this case using the Tannhauser example we saw kira directly firing at the gun which caused secondary explosions killing crew and later on illustrated by body bags. So yes Kira is in fact directly responsible for killing ZAFT personal.

Last edited by winter45; 2012-01-22 at 09:21.
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Old 2012-01-22, 09:31   Link #2310
Gundamx
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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
Your playing with semantics to favor your point.



Life fact: If you are the one directly by your actions caused death(s) you are the one directly responsible.

In this case using the Tannhauser example we saw kira directly firing at the gun which caused secondary explosions killing crew and later on illustrated by body bags. So yes Kira is in fact directly responsible for killing ZAFT personal.
So if I kick ball at the wall and the rock (which was on the wall) fall down on someone head and died will I get punished for direct murder or indirect?

(Kira only fire at Tannhauser, anyone who was near it die because of the Tannhauser explosion and not because of Kira weapon.)
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Old 2012-01-22, 12:03   Link #2311
Znozzy
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you know, if you shoot a giant cannon with a beam weapon it will explode and it will kill people, im sure Kira knew that when he shot it, and im sure he would take responsibility if someone confronted him about it.

Kira killed people in Destiny and in Seed, does it matter if they are EA,Zaft or ORB? i don't see what the big deal is, direct kills or indirect kills, sure, if he randomly shot a Murasame and it crashed into a nearby village, that would be sad and unfortunate, but that didnt happen


@ Gundamx

There is a difference in kicking a ball and heading out in a 20'ish meter tall giant robot of destruction.
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Old 2012-01-22, 12:55   Link #2312
Gundamx
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There is a difference in kicking a ball and heading out in a 20'ish meter tall giant robot of destruction.
Not really.
Killing someone with gun same as killing someone with gun(dam).


Quote:
Kira killed people in Destiny and in Seed, does it matter if they are EA,Zaft or ORB? i don't see what the big deal is, direct kills or indirect kills, happen
Neither am I, but for some reason he believe that if Kira have more ZAFT direct kill than Orb, then AA would rather to eliminated ZAFT fleet than to let Orb fleet get eliminate but the true is in that particular fight they would try to do everything in their power to stop both side from fighting and not just eliminating one side to save other


Quote:
you know, if you shoot a giant cannon with a beam weapon it will explode and it will kill people, im sure Kira knew that when he shot it, and im sure he would take responsibility if someone confronted him about it.
Who said he will not? What we are saying it was not direct kill.

What happen was that he need to stop Tannhauser so he shoot it but unlike AA main cannon there was people near it so they died when it exploded.

In short
Direct kill = Stella, (in seed) Raul, Nicol, Miguel...etc

Indirect kill = people who was near Tannhauser,
people who got their mobile suit disables (since they don't 100% surviving rate),
and people who was near their mother ship engine/cannon.
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Old 2012-01-22, 13:38   Link #2313
Znozzy
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Originally Posted by Gundamx View Post
Not really.
Killing someone with gun same as killing someone with gun(dam).
no, a gun shoots bullets, one bullet is pretty much equal to killing one person, one shot with the freedom's beam rifle will cause a explosion which will kill most people within range, if anything a Airstrike would be a better comparision

Quote:
Neither am I, but for some reason he believe that if Kira have more ZAFT direct kill than Orb, then AA would rather to eliminated ZAFT fleet than to let Orb fleet get eliminate but the true is in that particular fight they would try to do everything in their power to stop both side from fighting and not just eliminating one side to save other
why does that matter? Kira killed people on all sides, the AA wasnt on anyones side when it arrived at the battlefield

Quote:
Who said he will not? What we are saying it was not direct kill.

What happen was that he need to stop Tannhauser so he shoot it but unlike AA main cannon there was people near it so they died when it exploded.

In short
Direct kill = Stella, (in seed) Raul, Nicol, Miguel...etc

Indirect kill = people who was near Tannhauser,
people who got their mobile suit disables (since they don't 100% surviving rate),
and people who was near their mother ship engine/cannon.
Once again, why does that matter? your bickering over something that in the end doesnt matter, Kira killed alot of people.
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Old 2012-01-22, 14:06   Link #2314
Gundamx
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why does that matter? Kira killed people on all sides, the AA wasnt on anyones side when it arrived at the battlefield
Quote:
why does that matter? Kira killed people on all sides, the AA wasnt on anyones side when it arrived at the battlefield
Read up
Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45
Alrighty..... How many ORB forces personal has kira directly killed? I can think of huge number of ZERO...

How many ZAFT personal has kira killed directly? I can safely say more than zero.

Conclusion using this data that i can easily presume that ORB personal safety have priority over ZAFT when neutralizing measures are taken in effect.
Quote:
no, a gun shoots bullets, one bullet is pretty much equal to killing one person, one shot with the freedom's beam rifle will cause a explosion which will kill most people within range, if anything a Airstrike would be a better comparision
Huh? Beam gun = 1 target.
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Old 2012-01-22, 14:20   Link #2315
Znozzy
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Originally Posted by Gundamx View Post
Read up
Kira shot down lots of Murasames, he (or was it the archangel?) shot at the water, flipping entire boats over, i'm sure a few people drowned there.

as i said before, he has shot down people on all sides ending up killing them in one way or another, what i don't understand is why the two of you are bickering about direct or indirect kills, your both agreeing he killed people, yet your both just arguing over whos opinion is right.

the reason Kira shot the Tannhauser was because it would obliterate the Orb/Ea fleet right infront of it, by killing a few he managed to save many, and Cagalli was crying, so nothing else mattered either way

Quote:
Huh? Beam gun = 1 target.
Yes, you aim at one target, your forgetting the beam rifles causes a explosion doing damage to things around their target aswell, following from what's being animated in CE.

Example:

Random grunt 1 in a Windam shoots with his beam rifle into the ground,it causes a explosion, making a hole in the ground.

Random grunt 2 shoots with his sidearm pistol into the ground, you have a small bullet hole in the ground, but it doesnt cause a explosion.

So, let's assume random grunt 1 targets one Mobile suit and shoots, with the resulting explosion killing 5 ~ more grunts that's around his intended target

Random grunt 2 targets someone with his sidearm pistol and shoots, killing his intended target

See the difference? you can't compare a beam rifle to a regular gun, they don't work the same way, that's why i said a airstrike would be a better comparision than a gun.
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Old 2012-01-22, 14:51   Link #2316
Gundamx
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Kira shot down lots of Murasames, he (or was it the archangel?) shot at the water, flipping entire boats over, i'm sure a few people drowned there.

as i said before, he has shot down people on all sides ending up killing them in one way or another, what i don't understand is why the two of you are bickering about direct or indirect kills, your both agreeing he killed people, yet your both just arguing over whos opinion is right.

the reason Kira shot the Tannhauser was because it would obliterate the Orb/Ea fleet right infront of it, by killing a few he managed to save many, and Cagalli was crying, so nothing else mattered either way
Hello? You do know that I was only answering since he was saying Kira killed more ZAFT soldiers (directly) mean he would rather to destroy ZAFT fleet
( Again, his proof was Kira killing more ZAFt soldiers (directly), so to remove that proof (even though it was not rational) my answer was that Kira didn't directly kill ZAFT soldier than Orb but
indirectly = that's another story.

So why are you only quoting me? Who was answering? Shouldn't you aim your words at the one who was asking?

Quote:
Yes, you aim at one target, your forgetting the beam rifles causes a explosion doing damage to things around their target aswell, following from what's being animated in CE.
The way you said it... Like it was big explosion....
Are you sure that you aren't mistaking normal beam gun ( the one freedom use) with big beam gun? ( You know, like Hyper Impulse Beam Cannon).

Last edited by Gundamx; 2012-01-22 at 15:01.
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Old 2012-01-22, 15:02   Link #2317
Znozzy
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Originally Posted by Gundamx View Post
Hello? You do know that I was only answering since he was saying Kira killed more ZAFT soldiers (directly) mean he would rather to destroy ZAFT fleet
( Again, his proof was Kira killing more ZAFt soldiers (directly), so to remove that proof (even though it not rationally) my answer was that Kira didn't directly kill ZAFT soldier than Orb but
indirectly = that's another story.

So why that h*ll are you only quoting me? Who was answering? Shouldn't you aim your words at the one who was asking?
Quoted you since you replied first, Kira caused the Tannhauser's explosion, which resulted in him killing the people around it, so Kira is responsible for killing those soldiers/workers/engineers

Quote:
The way you said it... Like it was big explosion....
Are you sure that you aren't mistaking normal beam gun ( the one freedom use) with big beam gun? ( You know, like Hyper Impulse Beam Cannon).
does it matter? all beam weapons carried by mobile suits in the CE'verse causes explosions when they hit the ground
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Old 2012-01-22, 15:53   Link #2318
RX-78GP04G Gerbera
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In terms of the direct/indirect argument and the whole ball into wall and rock example, it would depend...

If you KNEW there was someone else behind that wall that the rock would more than likely hit and you performed the action anyway, then yes, that would be direct murder and not manslaughter. Heck, even if you didn't know someone else was behind the wall, the fact that you kicked the ball into the wall anyway with no regards for the consequences would be murder in itself because of the resulting death.

It would be manslaughter if you had no clue at all that there was someone behind that wall and the rock happened to kill them, but you had no intention of doing so. Like if you simply kicked the ball into the wall out of anger and not knowing any better.

Of course, other circumstances and rules of the law could play parts too, but that's the generalized idea.

In this case, it would be direct murder. Given Kira's overall experience from SEED and whatnot, he HAD to know that there were people either in the Tannhauser manning it directly or at the very least people nearby that would be killed or gravely injured if he were to destroy it, yet he did it anyway and it resulted in those deaths.



And who is to say that EVERYONE Kira disabled didn't end up dying somehow? I highly doubt that every single individual MS, especially on the large battlefields, that he, Athrun, and others may have disabled all had their pilots survive.

Who is to say that some of those MS didn't eventually explode off-screen from the damage they took and killed the pilot anyway? Various series have shown that some MS can take various degrees of damage, but not be destroyed immediately, but after a short time. One glaring example being 0083 with Burning's GM Custom from 1 seemingly negligible bullet hole in its side causing an explosion that killed Burning himself and then, a few seconds later, completely destroying the GM Custom.

Or what if whatever they hit and disabled/knocked-off/etc ended up causing further damage that disabled things like life support systems or other necessary systems to keep the pilot alive, if not destroying the MS outright?

Or what if the fact that they were left floating and disabled in the middle of the battlefield left them easy targets to be picked off by other people if not hit by stray friendly fire or something?

Sure, we may not have been shown it, but the chances of any of those things happening in such battles were all very real in those types of situations. Even those NOT disabled could end up killed during the chaos and confusion like we saw with Heine getting taken out by Stellar.
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Old 2012-01-22, 18:36   Link #2319
monster
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Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera View Post
And who is to say that EVERYONE Kira disabled didn't end up dying somehow? I highly doubt that every single individual MS, especially on the large battlefields, that he, Athrun, and others may have disabled all had their pilots survive.

Who is to say that some of those MS didn't eventually explode off-screen from the damage they took and killed the pilot anyway? Various series have shown that some MS can take various degrees of damage, but not be destroyed immediately, but after a short time. One glaring example being 0083 with Burning's GM Custom from 1 seemingly negligible bullet hole in its side causing an explosion that killed Burning himself and then, a few seconds later, completely destroying the GM Custom.

Or what if whatever they hit and disabled/knocked-off/etc ended up causing further damage that disabled things like life support systems or other necessary systems to keep the pilot alive, if not destroying the MS outright?

Or what if the fact that they were left floating and disabled in the middle of the battlefield left them easy targets to be picked off by other people if not hit by stray friendly fire or something?

Sure, we may not have been shown it, but the chances of any of those things happening in such battles were all very real in those types of situations. Even those NOT disabled could end up killed during the chaos and confusion like we saw with Heine getting taken out by Stellar.
Actually, if Kira only targets the head and limbs, then the likelihood of those mobile suit pilots dying as a direct result of Kira's actions is slim to none.

At best, you might have an incident like Heine's death, but he was killed because he didn't pay attention to Stella's action, not because Kira cut the Gouf's arm.

Even Auel, whose Abyss had its primary thrusters destroyed, and Athrun, whose Saviour was cut in several parts, could survive. And most mobile suits that Kira fired at would have had less damages than those two did. Especially by the time of Destiny, when most mobile suits had sustained flight capability.
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Old 2012-01-22, 19:41   Link #2320
winter45
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Originally Posted by Znozzy View Post
what i don't understand is why the two of you are bickering about direct or indirect kills, your both agreeing he killed people, yet your both just arguing over whos opinion is right.
Znozzy your taking my original post out of context, is not who side AA is on or how many kills AA have or who directly/indirectly blah blah blah...

Monster and I concluded that when it comes to ORB Forces, Cagalli would be biased. After all she is the part of the leadership of ORB, what kind of leader would she be if she has no interest of her forces survival.



@RX-78GP04G Gerbera

CE verse has a tendency to break laws of physics or real battle dynamics. Which to me is a convenient approach to setup characters personalities to some extent and restrict the real horrors of war.

Last edited by winter45; 2012-01-22 at 20:02.
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