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Old 2006-01-07, 15:06   Link #281
Lonely
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heine couldnt live longer than he did. even though he was an interesting character because the person who voiced him was the lead singer of tm revolution and they couldnt really get him to do more episodes due to his busy schedule.
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Old 2006-01-07, 16:35   Link #282
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you realize heine was only around for 3 episodes?
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Old 2006-01-07, 19:52   Link #283
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lil shinta
Destiny did not fail, it just suffered from narrow minded fans. It did not follow the normal Gundam formula in terms of story and characters. It is the most un-Gundam like show, outside of Turn A, Gundam X, and G Gundam.

Also, it is the second act to a larger overall story. It is not a self contained story like all of the UC shows.

Any similarities to UC shows is a tribute to Tomino. Actually, the entire show seems to be a tribute to Tomino. For example, the last ending of Destiny is identical to the ending Ideon.

Yeah narrow-minded fans...yeah that's it

What so great about not following the Gundam formula if the show still winds up becoming a ball of $hit??Perhaps it's no longer a misconception, but just because you come up with a smart or unconventional idea doesn't give you a free-pass to screw it up...I don't get this thinking...even some people who I consider really intelligent members (you know who you are) stand behind this "house of cards" notion...

Secondly, I'm fine with paying homage to previous Gundam shows, Turn A did it right...But there's a difference between paying respect and wh()ring homage...Cherrypicking scenes and themes from nearly every Gundam show in an indiscriminate randomness IS NOT paying respect and is certainley not something that has anything to do with the works of Tomino...GSD was a tribute to Tomino huh?? Tell him that and see if you don't leave that encounter with a broken-jaw or worse...

If you gonna do something bold and new, make sure it's good (That's all wingdarkness asks)...Furthermore how can you cherrypick so much stuff from other shows for pure superficial-ness and it be veiwed as doing something new or Un-Gundam?? Hell GSD is too much Gundam...so much it's cup is spilling over....Also if you think GSD was intetionally meant to be just a 2nd story of a trilogy you must be joking...It prolly wasn't even meant to be a series IMO....First 13 eps good like a OVA series, rest of the series poor planning and execution as if it wasn't even thought thru...

And Lastley...Gundam X seems more like a UC than any of the other AU series...Gundam X's director worked with Tomino extensively in Zeta..which is why it seems to have the feel of a UC...So Gundam X seems to have Gundam-like qualities...
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Old 2006-01-07, 21:13   Link #284
lil shinta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
Yeah narrow-minded fans...yeah that's it

What so great about not following the Gundam formula if the show still winds up becoming a ball of $hit??Perhaps it's no longer a misconception, but just because you come up with a smart or unconventional idea doesn't give you a free-pass to screw it up...I don't get this thinking...even some people who I consider really intelligent members (you know who you are) stand behind this "house of cards" notion...

Secondly, I'm fine with paying homage to previous Gundam shows, Turn A did it right...But there's a difference between paying respect and wh()ring homage...Cherrypicking scenes and themes from nearly every Gundam show in an indiscriminate randomness IS NOT paying respect and is certainley not something that has anything to do with the works of Tomino...GSD was a tribute to Tomino huh?? Tell him that and see if you don't leave that encounter with a broken-jaw or worse...

If you gonna do something bold and new, make sure it's good (That's all wingdarkness asks)...Furthermore how can you cherrypick so much stuff from other shows for pure superficial-ness and it be veiwed as doing something new or Un-Gundam?? Hell GSD is too much Gundam...so much it's cup is spilling over....Also if you think GSD was intetionally meant to be just a 2nd story of a trilogy you must be joking...It prolly wasn't even meant to be a series IMO....First 13 eps good like a OVA series, rest of the series poor planning and execution as if it wasn't even thought thru...

And Lastley...Gundam X seems more like a UC than any of the other AU series...Gundam X's director worked with Tomino extensively in Zeta..which is why it seems to have the feel of a UC...So Gundam X seems to have Gundam-like qualities...
Your rantings are amusing. I know that GSD was probably never intended when Seed was orginally produced, but because of the success of Seed that was changed. All that I am saying is that it is a good bridge for the overall story of CE.

And you are wrong about Gundam X, the vibe of that show is unlike UC or any of the other universes. The depth of the characters and the use of story arcs made that show. Also, if is so much like UC, why was it received so poorly at first. Just like Turn A, it took years for that show to be appreciated.

Lastly, if GSD was too much Gundam, what is Gundam Wing? That show is the weakest of all of the Gundam shows. The only thing that saves that show is Trieze.
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Old 2006-01-07, 21:34   Link #285
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I'll let Wingdarkness deal with most of it but...
Quote:
Lastly, if GSD was too much Gundam, what is Gundam Wing?
How many Gundams was there in Wing (not counting upgrades and rebuilds as different Gundams)?

1) Wing
2) Wing Zero
3) Sandrock
4) Heavyarms
5) Deathscyth
6) Altron
7) Eypon

Now, GSD:

1) Freedom
2) Strike Freedom
3) Infinite Justice
4) Strike Rouge
5) Deep Forbidden
6) Impulse
7) Destiny
8) Legend
9) Chaos
10) Abyss
11) Gaia
12) Saviour
13) Destroy
14) Akatsuki

Did I miss any? Really, is there any dispute over the fact that GSD has nearly double the number of Gundams present than most series? At what point do you say there are too many? 14? 20? Because, if you include flashback scenes, GSD has well over 20 gundams.
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Old 2006-01-07, 21:36   Link #286
wingdarkness
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You forgot TESTEMENT GUNDAM which is shown for .5 secs in ep 38....

By having .//hackatsuki in his avatar he should be well aware of your point...

@ lil shinta

^Well I will applaud you for saying Treize saves Wing (He was my favorite character)...But unlike GSD, Gundam Wing never tried to trick you or betray you into believing it was something it wasn't...It stayed true to itself and had what most Gundam shows lacked, and that's dialouge...GSD couldn't lick Wings boot in many areas including being honest to it's viewers...

Secondly... You are wrong about Gundam X (either that are we just have 2 really different perspectives)...X could easily be placed after Victory and before Turn A furthering the UC platform...Like Turn A it has great character development, like Victory it plays off the notion of Newtypes coming from Earth (and furthers this ideal)...Also all the wheel-mechas like Tyres and Motorad (from Victory) seem to progress nominally in X...Most of the earth-bound vessels (Including Vultures' vessels) and suits have that type of flow to them...That series has so much similiar with UC I almost thought Tomino directed it at first...Death just happens and it isn't glorified and harsh events take place as an average part of life which seems to reign true in most of Tomino's UC's...I also remember Mr. Paper telling me the director was a Tomino disciple, hence the similarities (To an extent)...And i didn't find that out til after I watched it...

The fact that it (X) was not appreciated (besides being up against Neon Genesis Evangalion at the time) is a circumstantial similarity...It doesn't have much to do with the meat of this argument...not much at all...

And please continue to be amused by my ravings...They are by far more informative than most of the B$ posts you probably read...
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Last edited by wingdarkness; 2006-01-07 at 21:47. Reason: TYPO!!!
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Old 2006-01-07, 21:40   Link #287
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I don't really care about the over-powered Gundams, since the cannon-fodders also get an upgrade, which kind of balances out things.(well power differences from Gundam -> Cannon-fodder).

But the constant reruns = lame.
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Old 2006-01-07, 21:42   Link #288
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Quote:
You forgot TESTEMENT GUNDAM which is shown for .5 secs in ep 38....
fo real? what time @ ep. 38?
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Old 2006-01-07, 21:49   Link #289
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It's a very quick scene of it underwater during the Heavens Base fight if I'm not mistaken...
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Old 2006-01-07, 22:09   Link #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lil shinta
Destiny did not fail, it just suffered from narrow minded fans. It did not follow the normal Gundam formula in terms of story and characters. It is the most un-Gundam like show, outside of Turn A, Gundam X, and G Gundam.

Also, it is the second act to a larger overall story. It is not a self contained story like all of the UC shows.
lil shinta, I agree with your conclusion that Destiny did not fail, but I object to the thrust of your arguments. First off, a show should be judged on its own merits; whether it's part of a larger work such as a prequel/sequel or manga side-stories should be immaterial.

Likewise, it's really unfair to blame the fans for not liking Destiny. Everybody likes different things, and if people don't like Destiny, then it's their own perogative. It would be nice if they explained why they felt that way, but that's not really necessary either.

Having said that, it's nice to see that someone else can recognize the unGundamness of Destiny. I think that's it's less of the Gundam archetype than even Turn A and G Gundam. I think that it would have been a much better show if it was completely divorced from Gundam (I think the same way about Turn A).

As to the topic at hand, I don't know if it's really fair to say that Destiny fail in the first place. What should we use as the criteria for determining failure and success? Should it be popularity, financial success, the feelings of the creators, artistic vision, or a combination of these factors? How would Destiny stack up here against other Gundam shows?
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Old 2006-01-07, 22:50   Link #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
It's a very quick scene of it underwater during the Heavens Base fight if I'm not mistaken...
No, that underwater gundam is the Forbidden Deep Blue MSV. The Testament gundam is that horny (it has HORNS) red gundam in GSD Astray. Kaite Madigan takes Mina's Amatu for a spin and tries to stop it and gets promptly pwned by a few pansyass pistols...

Not like testament is a big deal anyway...SF or IJ or Destiny wipe the floor with it.
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Old 2006-01-07, 23:36   Link #292
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Actually Demondgod, it's the Forbidden Vortex...
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Old 2006-01-08, 00:26   Link #293
Demongod86
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Oops. My bad.
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Old 2006-01-08, 05:20   Link #294
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Why GSD failed is pretty much in the eye of the beholder, really. Someone earlier said it brough Bandai high sales, and for them it's most likely a success. For me I guess it was not only the repetitive Gundam fights (except for a few) and constant flashback episodes. What really destroyed it was the nerfing of Shinn to Kira. It didn't have to happen, but it did anyway, along with the hyped-up Destiny which suffered the poor treatment it didn't deserve.
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Old 2006-01-08, 06:11   Link #295
Lonely
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
It's a very quick scene of it underwater during the Heavens Base fight if I'm not mistaken...
oh really.. i didnt notice that... i gotta check that out
also

@mrpaper you missed Aile Strike when Impulse magically tranforms for 2 seconds
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Old 2006-01-08, 11:44   Link #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
Likewise, it's really unfair to blame the fans for not liking Destiny. Everybody likes different things, and if people don't like Destiny, then it's their own perogative. It would be nice if they explained why they felt that way, but that's not really necessary either.
Well, that's why this thread was created...

Quote:
Having said that, it's nice to see that someone else can recognize the unGundamness of Destiny. I think that's it's less of the Gundam archetype than even Turn A and G Gundam. I think that it would have been a much better show if it was completely divorced from Gundam (I think the same way about Turn A).
It was unGundam because of the way it treated its "main character"?

And because they made Gundams into less than Gundams (by whuch Mr Paper pointed out, they made Gundams like everybody's entitled to have one just because they're characters in the story even if it doesn't make sense tha they should have these Gundams)?

Quote:
As to the topic at hand, I don't know if it's really fair to say that Destiny fail in the first place. What should we use as the criteria for determining failure and success? Should it be popularity, financial success, the feelings of the creators, artistic vision, or a combination of these factors? How would Destiny stack up here against other Gundam shows?
A combination of these factors, and then some. That's the reason why they created anime in the first place, right? Celebrating artistic vision, creativity, + feelings of the directors put in (especially if it's a manga to anime version; that is also why there are certain things in the anime version different from the manga version) and the feelings of its creators, etc., etc. How fans feel about it is also a way to gauge its success.
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Old 2006-01-08, 12:08   Link #297
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Well, that's why this thread was created...
I was correcting lil shinta partially on your behalf, so I'm not sure what your problem is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
It was unGundam because of the way it treated its "main character"?
Nope. I don't tend to get into the "who is the main character" debates, but I would say that Dulindal fits the role of protagonist better than anyone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
And because they made Gundams into less than Gundams (by whuch Mr Paper pointed out, they made Gundams like everybody's entitled to have one just because they're characters in the story even if it doesn't make sense tha they should have these Gundams)?
Also no. I don't give a damn what is or is not called a Gundam. "Gundam" is just a name, and it doesn't matter what they apply it to.

Destiny is an unGundam show for much the same reasons as Turn A; the themes, ideas and presentation are very different from what you would normally expect to see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
A combination of these factors, and then some. That's the reason why they created anime in the first place, right? Celebrating artistic vision, creativity, + feelings of the directors put in (especially if it's a manga to anime version; that is also why there are certain things in the anime version different from the manga version) and the feelings of its creators, etc., etc. How fans feel about it is also a way to gauge its success.
Here's the meat and bones of the matter. I wouldn't put too much credence on artistic vision because it's far too subjective to properly evaluate. As for popularity, what a proper gauge for that? Is it the popularity on a weboard, or a magazine poll, or viewers' ratings? Going by this criterion, Mobile Suit Gundam was originally fairly unpopular, so does that mean it was a failure? Likewise, Turn A Gundam was not very financially successful, so does that make it a failure? To this day, Tomino loathes Victory Gundam, does that mean that it's automatically a failure?

I don't know what's the proper way to gauge the matter, but if Bandai thought that Destiny was a failure, it would be very unlikely to consider any other Seed shows. About the only indicator that Destiny is a failure would be the reaction of some traditional Gundam fans, who tend to be rather vocal about the matter. However, that doesn't really mean anything on the whole.
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Old 2006-01-08, 12:57   Link #298
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tomino hates victory cause it reminds him how depressed he was.
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Old 2006-01-08, 13:00   Link #299
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Yes, Tomino hated Victory because he hated working on Victory. This should have been obvious since he actively tried to sabotage the show. So how does this nitpick affect my point?
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Old 2006-01-08, 13:51   Link #300
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Yes, Tomino hated Victory because he hated working on Victory. This should have been obvious since he actively tried to sabotage the show. So how does this nitpick affect my point?
sabotage? really?
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