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Old 2006-01-08, 14:51   Link #301
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaito-kid
sabotage? really?
Pretty much. Tomino tried to get the fans angry by killing off the characters. This is corroborated by the Victory DVD special features - one had Tomino actually begging the fans not to buy the Victory DVDs!
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Old 2006-01-08, 17:43   Link #302
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Originally Posted by Lonely
@mrpaper you missed Aile Strike when Impulse magically tranforms for 2 seconds
I ignored animation errors, it just didn't seem right to count it. >.>;
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Old 2006-01-08, 17:57   Link #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
Pretty much. Tomino tried to get the fans angry by killing off the characters. This is corroborated by the Victory DVD special features - one had Tomino actually begging the fans not to buy the Victory DVDs!
Tomino. Reported. Depression. Equals. Anger. Negative. Feelings. Etc.

And still, Victory was a great series. We see that just because you're a main character, it doesn't mean you live. Even if you're high on the importance chain, one strike of bad luck or one mistake and you go bye-bye in one (or sometimes more) of several ways.
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Old 2006-01-08, 20:48   Link #304
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
Hold on... So you are blaming Kira for ruining the series?

I thought it was clear people expected Kira to show up at some point in the sequel even before GSD aired? And no one really complained at the time?

It was how Kira's entrance was handled, and overall script problems, that drove GSD down hill. The fact that Kira's entrance coincides with the Shark-jumping doesn't mean he as a character has anything to do with it!

Or are you saying if Kira didn't show up at all the Fukuda couple would be able to make a better script? Seriously?

When GSD first aired, no one thought introducing Kira was a bad idea. It was when we realised Shinn's character development dropped to zero, and that the Fukuda couple already have trouble handling the characters they got, followed by the meaningless way the Minerva crew become secondary characters, that we know they had bitten off more than they could chew.

The is nothing wrong with re-introducing Kira. It was how he was reintroduced that was the problem. Kira as a character is not at fault; a better director would be able to fit him in seamlessly into the existing storyline. It's been done before, and there was no reason why it couldn't be done here except for sheer incompetence.

Many shows introduce characters half-way in the series. GSD failed because they weren't good enough, not because a character was inherently evil. (That's the impression i am getting, that the "Evil Kira" ruined everything. Get real, and get over it!)

I think many people were expecting for Kira to take on the "mentor-type" role for Shinn and/or be in command from the bridge of a ship or base.

It would have made more sense if something like this happened. We get to see Kira battle in Freedom one last time in the first half of the series, then he would sacrafice his MS for Shinn and then take on the role as mentor.
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Old 2006-01-08, 20:59   Link #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji103
Tomino. Reported. Depression. Equals. Anger. Negative. Feelings. Etc.

And still, Victory was a great series. We see that just because you're a main character, it doesn't mean you live. Even if you're high on the importance chain, one strike of bad luck or one mistake and you go bye-bye in one (or sometimes more) of several ways.
right,that's why i like zeta and victory gundam,0080,and dislike destiny.

and demongod86 there's one thing we agree on meer/mia(she's hot) shouldn't have died specially considering it was a waste of time.
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Old 2006-01-09, 00:46   Link #306
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We have different tastes as to what we want to watch and enjoy, can we leave it at that? (I didn't enjoy FMA very much because they killed my only fav character half way through the series)

How about we adjust the topic of the thread to "personal preferences aside, what other reasons are there that fans consider GSD a failure?"
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Old 2006-01-09, 00:53   Link #307
Demongod86
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Mia should not have died because I wanted to see her and Lacus walk together to the angel bath. INTO the angel bath. And then they'd both get dunked by Cagalli.

Also, where did people get the phrase "jumping the shark?"

What do sharks have to do with it?
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Old 2006-01-09, 09:03   Link #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
I was correcting lil shinta partially on your behalf, so I'm not sure what your problem is.
And I wasn't trying to pick on you or something, either. Just saying what my 2 cents are.


Quote:
Nope. I don't tend to get into the "who is the main character" debates, but I would say that Dulindal fits the role of protagonist better than anyone else.
And I am not going to that "who is the main character" debate because it might cause Mr Paper to give us another warning that he might just nuke this thread again (another stupid, useless flame war)...

Quote:
Also no. I don't give a damn what is or is not called a Gundam. "Gundam" is just a name, and it doesn't matter what they apply it to.
Then why is it called Gundam and nothing else?

Seriously, would you still try watching a series that has 25 years going on behind it without this name that made it this way in the first place?

Quote:
Destiny is an unGundam show for much the same reasons as Turn A; the themes, ideas and presentation are very different from what you would normally expect to see.
Yes, it was VERY different. However, it was a bad sort of different. If the reasons why GSD failed in some of the posters' eyes on this thread don't seem to make its sense imprinted into you or something...

Quote:
Here's the meat and bones of the matter. I wouldn't put too much credence on artistic vision because it's far too subjective to properly evaluate. As for popularity, what a proper gauge for that? Is it the popularity on a weboard, or a magazine poll, or viewers' ratings? Going by this criterion, Mobile Suit Gundam was originally fairly unpopular, so does that mean it was a failure? Likewise, Turn A Gundam was not very financially successful, so does that make it a failure? To this day, Tomino loathes Victory Gundam, does that mean that it's automatically a failure?
But if you were to watch the same kind of anime for the last 15 years or something of your life, won't you get bored by it?

It wasn't because that it was unpopular that made its mark. I haven't watched any of the UC shows only AU shows, and I could say by the people who are great fans of these series that they loved it because of something that its creator did, that is, trying to sell it to the fans who were so used to the super robot sagas way back when, by giving them what they wanted (fresh new ideas) in a way that best suited them (introduce worlds or the characters or the stories in such a way that was something that they could relate to, not a whole new world of jargon). It took several years for it to attain what it is today, and it was not just an overnight sensation. It took years for the creator to get to the fans, and so, the fans actually have a say in which series should be or is very popular, and so that is also why in order to retain their interest in this series, they make new shows, make new video games, make movies out of it, make a zillion dollar empire out of the many products it helped create...

Fans nowadays always want something new and fresh, wherein some of these fresh ideas are just rehashes of the old ideas and transformed into something that makes it not distinguishable from the old idea, but the old idea is still there. Or really fresh new ideas, that's why we have manga by the tons, new products, what have you. The fans' tastes are not stagnant, it is continually evolving. And the fans aren't always limited to this certain bracket; they come in all colors of the fandom spectrum. So what they like doesn't also necessarily mean that it's what the other guys on the other spectrum like. That is also why there are fans of certain characters and there are those who hate them. We really can't please everybody, because we have different likes and dislikes.

What the fans see or feel, it is reflected on the polls. What the fans like or don't, it is seen on the ratings. Why do we have seasons for sitcoms and what have you? Do you think if the fans still hated this certain sitcom it would still have another season?

We do not make something that could only please ourselves; more so if we're involved with the media, or whatever industry dealing with people factors like like or dislike. We are there because the fans like certain things, and it could make us crash if they don't like it at all.

If it was indeed a failure in many ways, it was because fans saw it that way, and not because they're "traditional fans of Gundam". Heck, they loved Gundam for what it was, and then Fukuda decided to give them a very evil present in GSD. The truth is seen in the polls, why Amuro is still there, why Zeta is still there...if the fans deemed them not fit for fandom consumption, they wouldn't stay in those polls. And it's because they weren't failures in creating public fandom interest for the last 25 years.

Could GSD hack it? If it didn't, then it is indeed a failure. Only time could tell.

Quote:
I don't know what's the proper way to gauge the matter, but if Bandai thought that Destiny was a failure, it would be very unlikely to consider any other Seed shows. About the only indicator that Destiny is a failure would be the reaction of some traditional Gundam fans, who tend to be rather vocal about the matter. However, that doesn't really mean anything on the whole.
See my reply above.
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Old 2006-01-09, 09:26   Link #309
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Then why is it called Gundam and nothing else?

Seriously, would you still try watching a series that has 25 years going on behind it without this name that made it this way in the first place?
For me, "Gundam" is just a marketing term. I would have actually preferred it if Destiny wasn't called Gundam in the first place. The same goes for Turn A.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Could GSD hack it? If it didn't, then it is indeed a failure. Only time could tell.
Are you simply saying that, at this point, it's just too early to tell if Destiny is a failure?
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Last edited by 4Tran; 2006-01-09 at 09:40.
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Old 2006-01-09, 09:46   Link #310
Eidolon Sniper
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What the fans are about is an indication already. To be able to say that it actually isn't a failure is not gauged by how well the DVDs are selling, or whatever. Some people buy the DVDs for collection's sakes, not because they actually buy it because they like it. If Kira and Lacus' popularity is just there just because they're the new faces of Gundam at the moment, chances are, they'll get shafted into lower positions once the interest for something even newer takes over. If that isn't any indication of how popularity or success is...

One ripple is all it takes, actually.
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Old 2006-01-09, 11:28   Link #311
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I guess it fits pretty well to post this here.
From Gunota.

Anime! Anime! News listed their top 10 news of 2005;

6) Success of old and new Gundam - Zeta Gundam: A New Translation and SEED DESTINY
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Old 2006-01-09, 11:35   Link #312
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That DOESN'T exactly equate it as being successful already, isn't it? Or being that popular?
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Old 2006-01-09, 11:55   Link #313
Last_Hope
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
That DOESN'T exactly equate it as being successful already, isn't it? Or being that popular?
If you say so. But I´m sure I saw the word success in there somewhere.
I don´t know if "Anime! Anime! News" is anything to take seriously but since it´s almost only negative things in here and someone always gets irritated when people post or say something positive about Destiny... Well, I couldn´t let this go unmentioned in here...

(In here being the whole Gundam section)

But we know that the TV-ratings were alright, if I remember correctly they were on the middle/upper half compared with other Gundam shows and the DVD.s are selling well too.

I personally don´t find SEED Destiny as an exceptional show but I still enjoyed it.
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Old 2006-01-09, 14:44   Link #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Last_Hope
But we know that the TV-ratings were alright, if I remember correctly they were on the middle/upper half compared with other Gundam shows and the DVD.s are selling well too.
I remember back in the seed days, the CE haters pointed out a flaw in the TV ratings that none of the preceding gundam shows holds the prime time airing slot like GS and GSD did. But nonetheless, Gseed was undeniably a huge financial success as bandai happily enjoy the gundam boom of the new millanium. So by default people will pay attention to the sequel. And GSD did 'successfully' reached out to a broad audience. Unfortunately, the majority of those were not satisfied (and you have to be really ignorant to not see that), which is why we have a topic like this filled with posts. Just think matrix 2 (or whatever subtitle they gave it), lots of ppl watched it, lots of complaints as well.
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Old 2006-01-09, 17:12   Link #315
Demongod86
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How can you tell how many people complained? By drawing one conclusion from one forum? That is statistically such a ridiculous conclusion that it's sickening. Kira and Lacus are popular because they can WIN when it comes down to it. And at the end of GSD, the protagonists did something that most other gundams could NOT do...dare I say ALL other protagonists could not do...they kept their gundams without a SCRATCH. What happened to even the mighty Wing Zero Custom? IT GOT WRECKED! And by grunts no less! SF though, made it through and proved its worth. And honestly, by now, Kira and Lacus have taken their place in the hearts of many fans. Yes, odds are, the next protagonist will be able to overshadow K x L, since he's the one airing, but CE is a HUGE financial success. Sell the character, sell the gundam, sell the action figures, sell the DVDs. Ka-CHING!

Odds are, Fukuda's going to stick around as our director. He's the new Tomino, love him or hate him. He needs to reorganize his staff, granted, but I don't think a new director will be able to do Kira and Lacus any justice.
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Old 2006-01-09, 17:29   Link #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Last_Hope
Anime! Anime! News listed their top 10 news of 2005;

6) Success of old and new Gundam - Zeta Gundam: A New Translation and SEED DESTINY
Well, the article ( http://animeanime.jp/news/archives/2...106101231.html ) actually refers to a 『機動ガンダムSEED DESNITNY』... But that's probably a typo...

And actually, the article mentions that Destiny is "even more popular than the previous work" and on the business aspect, "DVD gross sales were high."

Quote:
Originally Posted by FogHog
I remember back in the seed days, the CE haters pointed out a flaw in the TV ratings that none of the preceding gundam shows holds the prime time airing slot like GS and GSD did.
I pointed that out... But I'm not a CE hater... Its just the truth.


Oh, and I should point out that GSD isn't really that bad in ratings anymore though, now that Blood+ is in that slot. After 12 eps, GSD was averaging 5.39% (compared to GS's 6.14% and FMA's 6.06%).

Blood+ is averaging a 4.09%... Prime candidate for cancellation? Who knows. But it makes GSD look like a huge rating success, that's for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86
And at the end of GSD, the protagonists did something that most other gundams could NOT do...dare I say ALL other protagonists could not do...they kept their gundams without a SCRATCH. What happened to even the mighty Wing Zero Custom? IT GOT WRECKED! And by grunts no less! SF though, made it through and proved its worth.
Spoiler:


So nope, Strike Freedom wasn't the only one mighty enough to survive, not by a long shot.
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Last edited by brightman; 2006-01-09 at 17:59.
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Old 2006-01-09, 21:13   Link #317
4Tran
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It looks like there's no point posting my original response.

brightman, you've sparked my curiosity; what were the original Kanto airtimes for Mobile Suit Gundam, Zeta Gundam, Gundam Wing, and Turn A Gundam?
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Old 2006-01-09, 21:15   Link #318
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There was stuff about Victory Gundam earlier, so I`m commenting on that but,

there isn`t really anything that says Tomino wanted Victory to fail, but all signs point to it. The guy hated Victory, and the fact that he made great characters just to kill them off kinda points to him wanting people to hate the show too. He even says in the Victory DVD commentary that you should not buy the Victory DVDs cause he didn`t like the way it came out. The irony of this is that you have to buy the Victory DVDs in order to see this message :P.
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Old 2006-01-09, 21:39   Link #319
Demongod86
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God gundam...pfeh...it had its share of mishaps in the final battle, none of them too major, but they were there. Z gundam...well...yeah, gundam>newtype attacks. Newtype attacks>pilot.
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Old 2006-01-09, 22:24   Link #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crusader
Actually Demondgod, it's the Forbidden Vortex...
That's the greatest thing about GSD - in the magazines preview, they had a big "MSV!" print with the picture and it clearly said Forbidden Blue, and it said Forbidden Blue on the main site as well.

For a while.

Now they've shafted MSV and said that it was a "Forbidden Vortex". Oh Fukuda, you funny little man you ^^.
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