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Old 2006-01-11, 22:04   Link #361
dom33
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demongod86 kamille was hated by some because he was whiney yet he had to be one of the best main character in gundam history.kira hasn't had character development for 101 episodes!anda kira fanboy agreed with me on it.how has lacus changed?the biggest character growth she had was changing her hair!and have you noticed how shinn was obiously character raped he wqould have changed for the better you wouldn't hate him and now that he forced to work for tsa you like him,stop looking at him you don't desrve his greatness.besides the switch occured at 39,and a character can't be failure only misused like fllay was misused.i'm surprissed you still continue to think gsd was good but your fellow tsa fans admited it sucked!
and mary sues are not well written!
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Old 2006-01-11, 23:02   Link #362
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86
But how is Cagalli running her country detrimental to her relationship with Athrun? He's going to be flying the IJ in the name of Orb and haxing up any offenders!
The full explanation of how Athrun's relation affects Cagalli's duties is too long and convoluted to detail here. But, I can still relate one of the salient points:

Cagalli took off her ring at time when Athrun had to go to space while she still had to take care of Orb. There was simply no room in Cagalli's life for romance. Their later seperation is simply an extension of this. Athrun is a great mobile suit pilot, and a good soldier, but Cagalli doesn't really need a great soldier. What she needed was someone who she can confide in, and who could give her support. As seen earlier in Destiny, she was not capable of telling Athrun of the troubles she was in, and he was incapable of backing her up either politically, ideologically, philosophically or physically. This may only contribute indirectly to Cagalli's impotence, but it is still a contributing factor. Even with the war over, these problems have not gone away, so she remains a better leader apart from Athrun than with him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dom33
i'm surprissed you still continue to think gsd was good but your fellow tsa fans admited it sucked!
Why is this surprising? Different people can like things for different reasons, and no group of fans is monolithic in their tastes.
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Old 2006-01-11, 23:05   Link #363
Demongod86
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Don't play what-ifs, dom33. You said Shinn was well-written. No, he was not. He was so poorly written that he could not hold up even though he had half a series to prove his worth. Kira had character development the very first time we saw him launch in Freedom in GSD--even before that...he was on a higher level, and that's because of his time in peace, just having a peace of mind. God...who wouldn't want that...just to have time basically STOP, and spend what seems to be a moment yet forever with a pink-haired goddess like Lacus...

As for Lacus changing, what reason did she have for changing? Is she the main hero of the story? She is the main hero's beloved, and as they say, behind every strong man is a stronger woman. She already WAS developed.

GSD was good. It could have been far better if Fukuda and team had not lazied up on the animation, and the fact that Shinn just kept doing the same crap over and over characterwise, always angsting, never smartening up, but the ideas were very good, just not executed well-enough to my liking. I'm not a tough guy to please with an anime, dom33, especially not when I'm a diehard fanatic of two of its absolute most popular characters.

Heck, Lacus rubbed off on me so much that I had to rewrite my original novel after getting 11 chapters in due to my main (well, one of two) Laurena Frostcrystal being a complete Mary Sue...well, I gave her flaws this time around, but this time, I PUT IN MY OWN LACUS!!!!!

Because no story is EVER complete without a soft-spoken long-haired sweet, caring woman that brings joy with her simple existence.

I say this: you can try to look in and hate Lacus for winning and taking out the suspense of the fight, but before I'm interested in the fight, I'm interested in the relationships, and the characters. And face it--NO character in GSD changed. The new cast got stumped for favor of the old cast, and the old cast didn't have enough time to really magically change either...and where would they have changed to, anyhow?

If you think Fukuda did such a terrible job (which I admit, was lackluster in my eyes...), then why don't you write your own original work, create characters that we--the readers can become endeared with, and have them magically change throughout the story to make it the greatest thing since JRR Tolkien...

It's VERY difficult.

But that's what directors and writers get paid the big bucks for, and I don't think Fukuda earned his keep this time around. I could have done a better job writing than Morasawa could have.
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Old 2006-01-11, 23:08   Link #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
The full explanation of how Athrun's relation affects Cagalli's duties is too long and convoluted to detail here. But, I can still relate one of the salient points:

Cagalli took off her ring at time when Athrun had to go to space while she still had to take care of Orb. There was simply no room in Cagalli's life for romance. Their later seperation is simply an extension of this. Athrun is a great mobile suit pilot, and a good soldier, but Cagalli doesn't really need a great soldier. What she needed was someone who she can confide in, and who could give her support. As seen earlier in Destiny, she was not capable of telling Athrun of the troubles she was in, and he was incapable of backing her up either politically, ideologically, philosophically or physically. This may only contribute indirectly to Cagalli's impotence, but it is still a contributing factor. Even with the war over, these problems have not gone away, so she remains a better leader apart from Athrun than with him.


Why is this surprising? Different people can like things for different reasons, and no group of fans is monolithic in their tastes.

I'd think that Cagalli would be able to confide in Athrun far more if she just tried and gave him a chance. The problem with Athrun is that he's an amazing pilot, but really inept when it comes to leadership. Socializing is just not his forte, and Cagalli is having trouble with it herself. I'm just wondering where Mina Sahaku is to take Orb by the reins and say "LET'S GET THIS PARTY STARTED!" since last we checked in Destiny Astray, she WAS a good guy, just getting ready for Orb to get revitalized. Now with SF and IJ and perhaps Destiny...maybe we can see a gold frame Amatu Mina Custom Lacus Clyne enhanced version...
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Old 2006-01-11, 23:26   Link #365
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Originally Posted by Demongod86
And face it--NO character in GSD changed. The new cast got stumped for favor of the old cast, and the old cast didn't have enough time to really magically change either...and where would they have changed to, anyhow?
I can't agree here on two points. First off, I think that the new cast, Meer and Dulindal in particular, got pretty decent development. The only exceptions are Arthur, who nobody cares about, and Talia, who they couldn't quite pull off. I think that the returning characters who had any significant amount of screentime also received quite a bit of development. Eschewing the obvious choice, Cagalli and Lacus benefitted the most here. Also, Athrun's character also deepened beyond what we saw in Seed. I am rather astonished that I still see lots of people complaining that Kira doesn't change at all, while I found his changes rather dramatic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86
But that's what directors and writers get paid the big bucks for, and I don't think Fukuda earned his keep this time around. I could have done a better job writing than Morasawa could have.
The creators were far more ambitious in Destiny than they were in Seed. They weren't completely successful, but I thought that they managed to construct a pretty compelling story with interesting ideas. Interestingly enough, I found the writing here to be superior to that of Seed.
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Old 2006-01-12, 01:25   Link #366
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Originally Posted by 4Tran
What she needed was someone who she can confide in, and who could give her support. As seen earlier in Destiny, she was not capable of telling Athrun of the troubles she was in, and he was incapable of backing her up either politically, ideologically, philosophically or physically.
In terms of Athrun being able to support Cagalli... I think it's half and half..

Politically - there are varies way of supporting cagalli politically:

1. Within Orb's Representative - In this case, we know Athrun cannot help much.. even with his Colonel status... but with Juna and their allies treason charge at the end of Destiny... Cagalli has (from what we see) seize more power/control inside the Representative Circle, so we can probably assume that this factor is not as prominent as it was in the beginning of Destiny...

2. Within Orb's Citizens - If I remember correctly, Cagalli is loved by soliders and citizens alike.. I don't think she need much help in this department.

3. Fostering Strong Foreign Relationships - This is where Athrun is a 2-sided sword... while a relationship (marriage) with a Zaft Hero can strenghten Orb-Plant relationship (which is already very strong due to Kira-Lacus relationship with Orb).. it might upset the EAF and seeing Orb as a threat within the earth sphere .. but then again EA is in so weak after destiny that I think that their opinion matters much >.>;

4. Provide Sound Political Advice - This is where Athrun can help Cagalli. As seen in esp 1 quote "Acting is also part of politics" It really does shows that Athrun have a better understanding of how to be a politician than Cagalli... I'm would not be suprise if Athrun had some form of political education since it is possible that he was planned to follow his father footsteps to become PLANT's Chairman.

For Ideology and philosophy, we'll need to define the difference. In here, I'll assume that her ideology refer to his dad's ideology for Orb - "A nation militarily strong enough to not be interfered by other, but also do not interfere others." And I'll assume that philosophy refers to her personal beliefs and values as a person/politician which is honestly, hard-headedness, and duty as a public servant.


In terms of Ideology, I think Athrun do understand and appreciates what her (but mainly her father's) ideal are for Orb, which is why he has sought to protect it in both SEED and DESTINY.

Their philosophy is really where they crash the most. Cagalli's philosophy just doesn't work as a politican (at least in real life). Despite her sense of duty, her beliefs in being her true self in the politically arena is simply naive... and this is where I think it's a good thing that their philosophy crashed, b/c if she wants to become a successful political figure, she'll need to change and grow up. Athrun should/could be a driving force to persuade her.

Lastly, in terms of physical support, I think Athrun was only absent from her side because of the war. We can assumen that by being her body guard, he was/ can be there to support her physically during time of peace.

In general, I think Athrun can provide the support Cagalli needs during times of peace... He was there when she was crying herself to sleep after Shin's relevation.. He was there to protect her when the druggies steals the mobile suits. He was one of the 2 persons that actually can chide/guide Cagalli (the other being Kira) in terms of her decision. But I can see that unless Fukada is willing to let Athrun stay behind and not head to the frontline, their relationship can't really develop much more.

In response to whether Asucaga contritube to GSD failure... I'd say Asucaga's development is not a cause but a symptom of how GSD has failed. It has show that both the director and scriptwriter are incapable of expressing what they intend to deliever. They misdirect the audience to the point that makes the fans feel stupid... Similar to changing main character, saying that Asucaga never love (or even infatuate with) each other, but was simply confused and really just felt like a war commarde is a big slap to the fans' faces. Does Fukada expect us to interpretate "brushing other's hair, hugs, kisses, and putting ring on the forth finger" as normal interactions between war commardes? If so why isn't Luna and Athrun doing the same thing?

Asucaga's treatment did not cause GSD to fail, it merely a good symptom of why it failed, which is poor director/scripting ability and disrespectful to the audience intelligence.
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Old 2006-01-12, 07:17   Link #367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86
Don't speak for me. The animation was poor, I'll give you that...as for character development, Kira and Lacus WERE further developed. Kira DEFINITELY changed in GSD, from angsty crybaby to the best pilot in all of CE, with barely a drop of emotion.
Let's see.

Kira
  1. His transition to being the GOD of all GODS in Gundam wasn't thoroughly explained...check.
  2. His absolute "perfection" with possibly one of the cheapest MS in the entire Gundam universe and the fact that he could actually use DRAGOONs like he's just breathing...check.
  3. His illogical sense of being absolutely right on all accounts...check.
  4. His rainbow spam attack striking with Super Saiyan precision...check.
  5. Moping around because of a wrecked Gundam...check.



Lacus
  1. Her transition to being the GODDESS of all GODDESSES in Gundam...wait a minute, it was already implied in SEED that she is the absolute GODDESS...so scratch that.
  2. Her amazing ability to turn people around with just a few well placed words...wait a minute, she could also already do that in SEED...so scratch that.
  3. Her belief in herself that she is absolutely right and everybody else is wrong...wait a minute, she could also already do that in SEED...so scratch that.
  4. Her amazing ability to make/get GOD suits out of thin air which is quite handy to give to her demigods at hand in case one of them gets their MS destroyed and/or has their ideals set back to the "light"...wait a minute she already did that in SEED...so scratch that.
  5. Saying "I am Lacus Clyne, soldiers of ZAFT, do you know what you are fighting for?" every time she gets to try to go into battle to stop them from fighting...holy crap, she already did that in SEED...so scratch that.

Now saying that these 2 had actually changed for the better is really ridiculous. SEED Kira is WAY tons better than GSD Kira. Before Freedom. And Lacus is still Lacus, only twice as holy.

Saying Kira actually matured or whatever is detrimental to the remaining love I have left for him. So stop saying that.

Quote:
You're talking about plot devices? Like the fact that Kira had to lose to get SF?
It could be taken as a plot device to make Kira get the Strike Freedom and a plot device to make Shinn look really bad. Then the plot device so that Bandai could sell more Strike Freedom kits, and make the Clyne Faction even holier than all the other "evil" people of the CE for making that GOD suit take out all teh possible evildoers in the entire universe for being absolutely...GODLY.

Quote:
I can tolerate a LOT of different kinds of characters, but the one I CANNOT tolerate is the angsty raging crying teen. This does not just apply to Shinn. I'm talking about Harry Pothead, and all of the other angsty teen anime protagonists. Lacus might be a Mary Sue, but I'd rather go with her than like an angsty whiny Shinn. At least I liked developed characters rather than one that was just trashed halfway through the series. Shinn is well-written? Please. He's the typical angsting teen. Antihero my ass. He was so poorly written that he was thrown to the wayside halfway through the series because Fukuda could not figure out what to do with a character that was so poorly written, so he just sidelines him.
You'd rather go for characters that weren't given much thought to progress with, right, so that everything just comes on smooth and dandy and doesn't require much thought that she or he is the "good guy", right?

I thought you said yourself that you're a writer. A writer who could only do not much more than a Mary Sue or a Stu is not that really good a writer. I thought it was every writer's dream to create a character that all those who could read it could actually identify with him or her without giving in to the Mary Sue or Stu syndrome?

Shinn was very well written, same goes for Fllay. In fact, there are writers way back in SEED who actually said that Fllay was the best written character out of the entire cast and she was taking too much of the attention in SEED that the other characters were just so-so characters in the sense that they now didn't seem much more important than Fllay's brand of makeup.

Shinn was very well written but alas he has an entire fanbase against him. Shinn isn't all angst, Shinn isn't all about arrogance, Shinn isn't all about revenge. He only took to revenge when Stellar died. In fact, Shinn didn't join ZAFT out of revenge. He joined ZAFT because he felt that he had to protect all those people from getting entangled in another war, because he himself had experienced that, and it was awful. Why is it that some Kira fans fail to see this very important facet of Shinn that sets him apart from your usual, angsty teenager?

@ Crusader

Well, to some of the fans who think relationships are the biggest thing over the story...

@ cloudedge

Not really a symptom, it was one of the reasons why GSD failed (to the fans who think relationships are the biggest thing over good stories and whatever). These fans expected more out of this relationship after their love blossomed in SEED but were in for a very major letdown. So it failed in that aspect in their eyes.

@ 4Tran

>.>;; Kira. Did. Not. Change.

If ever, his "change" took a turn for the worse.

His awkward reintroduction to the story, his stealing of the spotlight from Shinn, making sense out of his "nonsensical" logic, his gung-ho gatecrashing into every possible diplomatic row (ZAFT and EA most especially), his supposed "wise" ways that he got after staring at the sea for the past 2 years, saying that he is protecting peace but he's actually endangering it because of his aforementioned gung-ho ways...

Lacus..aside from being a very obvious GODDESS...

Yes, it was dramatic, alright.

And I find your idea that GSD's story > SEED is even more .

Cagalli's character went down the drain, Athrun's character went down the drain. I'm no fan of Cagalli, but to make her "strong" personality suffer a very big major blow like this is just totally for me. Athrun who had experienced all that shit in SEED should've become more attuned to the ways of the Force, but for some strange reason, both Kira and Lacus beat him to it. Why? No wonder he can't even get his Padawan to fetch the stick.

Quote:
I say this: you can try to look in and hate Lacus for winning and taking out the suspense of the fight, but before I'm interested in the fight, I'm interested in the relationships, and the characters. And face it--NO character in GSD changed. The new cast got stumped for favor of the old cast, and the old cast didn't have enough time to really magically change either...and where would they have changed to, anyhow?
And so you contradict yourself AGAIN, Demongod. (take a look see at your post in the first part of this...uh...post.)
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Old 2006-01-12, 07:29   Link #368
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Old 2006-01-12, 08:17   Link #369
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I am her. For some strange reason, animesuki refuses to let me use my name as Cerridwen, so there...>.>;;
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Old 2006-01-12, 09:46   Link #370
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
>.>;; Kira. Did. Not. Change.

If ever, his "change" took a turn for the worse.

His awkward reintroduction to the story, his stealing of the spotlight from Shinn, making sense out of his "nonsensical" logic, his gung-ho gatecrashing into every possible diplomatic row (ZAFT and EA most especially), his supposed "wise" ways that he got after staring at the sea for the past 2 years, saying that he is protecting peace but he's actually endangering it because of his aforementioned gung-ho ways...
Which. Are. All. Things. He. Wouldn't. Have. Done. In. Seed.
Your examples show just how much Kira has changed between the two shows. I think that the changes are for the better, but that wasn't the crux of my argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Lacus..aside from being a very obvious GODDESS...

Yes, it was dramatic, alright.
No matter how you phrase it, Lacus character is developed far more in Destiny than in Seed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
And I find your idea that GSD's story > SEED is even more .
Actually, I never said that. I did say that Destiny was more ambitious, and had more interesting ideas, and that the writing is superior. I think that Seed actually has a better story mostly because of its relative simplicity.
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Old 2006-01-12, 10:05   Link #371
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Given if he actually had Fllay with him in GSD, his change will definitely be for the better. It would make his transition from being a war freak to a peace freak definitely more believable...>.>;; Or why he gained Super Saiyan capabilities. Kira wouldn't do these things even if his very life depended on it in SEED...

Lacus never got any development in GSD. She is basically the same as she was in SEED. Only twice holier.

WTH?! SEED was far more complex because of the whole Coordinator VS Natural thing, it was explored in greater detail here, not to mention that the main protagonist is portrayed going against his best friend, which is far more complicated than simply deducing that Dullindal is evil only after the first episode.
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Old 2006-01-12, 13:26   Link #372
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I don't think Lacus was more developed in GSD than in GS. Lacus reached her pinnacle of development and character in SEED when they established her as being a foil of Fllay. ;/
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Old 2006-01-12, 16:12   Link #373
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As for the Athrun Helping Cagalli, thats not right. Infact, Athrun spent most of GSD confused, How can a confused and indecisive person such as Athrun give cagalli advice?
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Old 2006-01-12, 21:18   Link #374
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I didn't even see any really significant development in Lacus in GSEED even, but in GSD? She's a horizontal line, x = 0, she never changes through all of GSD.
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Old 2006-01-12, 21:40   Link #375
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Originally Posted by Shinji103
I didn't even see any really significant development in Lacus in GSEED even, but in GSD? She's a horizontal line, x = 0, she never changes through all of GSD.
Well....x=0, what about y?
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Old 2006-01-12, 21:56   Link #376
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@ Eidolon Sniper: let me put a correction to my self-contradiction:

to start GSD, the old characters changed. Then, they didn't change after that.

The new characters didn't change at all, or if they did, it was either never in a good way (Dully, Shinn) or too little, too late.

Edit: about people relating to characters...some people simply can't relate to my leads because they don't think girls that are both beautiful and intelligent exist.

Edit @ Shinji: Sorry, I am going to take a moment to laugh my ass off at you. Y=0 is the horizontal line in two dimensions...and I HIGHLY doubt you are talking about the horizontal line X=0 on the 3-space graph of the X, Y, and Z lines...and just for that outburst of mathematical ineptitude, I look forward to you taking on third semester calculus. That will be SO MUCH FUN ^_^
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Old 2006-01-12, 22:10   Link #377
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Uhh... guys, character development and change aren't the same thing. While change can be a form of character development, it's not the only one. As far as I'm concerned, it is impossible for Lacus' character development in Seed to be better than that in Destiny. I never managed to get a good grasp of her character in Cosmic Era 70-71, while her personality, thoughts and goals are much better expressed in Destiny. We never get into her head enough to determine whether she changed or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
WTH?! SEED was far more complex because of the whole Coordinator VS Natural thing, it was explored in greater detail here, not to mention that the main protagonist is portrayed going against his best friend, which is far more complicated than simply deducing that Dullindal is evil only after the first episode.
This doesn't make Seed more complex; it makes it simpler. When a major conflict can be effectively couched in the terms of an X vs. Y dichotomy, this conflict is less complicated than one that cannot be expressed in such straightforward terms. Likewise, Seed's themes are much simpler and features far less subtlety.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86
I'd think that Cagalli would be able to confide in Athrun far more if she just tried and gave him a chance. The problem with Athrun is that he's an amazing pilot, but really inept when it comes to leadership. Socializing is just not his forte, and Cagalli is having trouble with it herself.
Actually, Crusader is right here, there's not really very much Athrun can do for Cagalli. She never confided in him at the beginning of Destiny because she was too immature to do so and because it would have done nothing other than burden him as well. The very fact that Athrun couldn't use his real name is a good indication of how much of a liability he is to her ability to rule. It's not fair, but then again, the world doesn't care about fairness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86
I'm just wondering where Mina Sahaku is to take Orb by the reins and say "LET'S GET THIS PARTY STARTED!" since last we checked in Destiny Astray, she WAS a good guy, just getting ready for Orb to get revitalized. Now with SF and IJ and perhaps Destiny...maybe we can see a gold frame Amatu Mina Custom Lacus Clyne enhanced version...
I have no clue who Mina is, but I think that Orb is already on the way there. In Cosmic Era 74, the Peace Treaty was signed between PLANT and Orb. Also, Earth Alliance and her member nations are in complete shambles. Orb now has an opportunity, perhaps even an obligation, to take a leadership role. Add to this mix the fact that Orb has effectively dropped the Uzumi's neutrality ideal, and it's quite obvious that it is in a far different position than in the past.
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Old 2006-01-12, 22:20   Link #378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86
Edit @ Shinji: Sorry, I am going to take a moment to laugh my ass off at you. Y=0 is the horizontal line in two dimensions...and I HIGHLY doubt you are talking about the horizontal line X=0 on the 3-space graph of the X, Y, and Z lines...and just for that outburst of mathematical ineptitude, I look forward to you taking on third semester calculus. That will be SO MUCH FUN ^_^
Just got done with about 5 hours of Calculus homework and my brain can take no more for the night, period. I'm sure we all know typos when we see them, similar to how noticeable your constant intentional ranting about Kira and the gods of CE is. When you stoop so low as to laugh at someone for a one letter typo, something that happens with many other people on many many many forums, it only goes to show that you harbor negative feelings for the person who made the post. In your case, you hate that your butt got owned over your "Amuro got pwned by a rock" point in the Pilot rankings thread.

Anyway, Lacus didn't really change since GSEED, she was always a personl who had the power and words to attract people to her cause. In GSEED this was perfectly understandable and reasonable (two wirds which were lost in GSD) as the standpoint of the war was quite obviously getting out of hand, but in GSD, it was ridiculous. In GSEED she never did anythign tactical, and she didn't in GSD either.
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Old 2006-01-12, 22:30   Link #379
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Gotta agree SEED is far simplier than GSD...GSD is far more complex (To a default obviously)...With that said, I don't think subtlety can be confused with bad execution...

SEED was really just MSG with a couple of updated wrinkles...Very enjoyable and easy to digest...The character of Rau Le Cruset (and his circumstances and relations) was the only element that engaged in a good deal of complication...While GSD deals in complication from beginning to end, forsaking many basics of story-telling techniques...

@Shinji - Getting Rau to stop his assualt after Kira handed her over was quite tactical...and while it was a bit sophmore-ish, helping Kira gain FREEDOM was something that atleast adds to her cashe...In GSD we have a newly established character who's surreal omnipotence overrides any logical progression of events...
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Old 2006-01-12, 23:07   Link #380
Shinji103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
@Shinji - Getting Rau to stop his assualt after Kira handed her over was quite tactical...and while it was a bit sophmore-ish, helping Kira gain FREEDOM was something that atleast adds to her cashe...In GSD we have a newly established character who's surreal omnipotence overrides any logical progression of events...
Yeah I know, but I'm talking about the lack of Lacus development in GSD really. The only difference in Lacus between GSEED and GSD is the pink pixie dust. >.>
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