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Old 2006-01-31, 15:13   Link #501
Last_Hope
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If Athrun hadnīt intervened Kiraīs attempts to get to Shinn (after Shinn fired at Athrunīs fiancée) he would pretty much have had both Freedom and Abyss going after his ass. Itīs hard to see Shinn getting out from such a situation unharmed.
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Old 2006-01-31, 16:20   Link #502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji103
And since when has it been that hovering on the ground/water has been a huge disadvantage? What do Doms do? And we all know how fast and maneuverable those suckers are on the ground. Last I checked, the Gundam Mark II and Hyakushiki were both self-flight incapable units, and they beat the Asshimar and Gaplant, which were both flying units. The point isn't being able to fly or not, the point is dodging what comes your way, and being on the ground doesn't make it much harder to dodge. Especially when you've got hover jets. Basically you're saying that a car wouldn't be able to dodge a helicopter's rockets. (using rockets here because missiles would track the target, but beams don't so they're more similar to rockets than missiles)

I really don't see where people get the idea that the Blast Impulse is slow/sluggish, from what we've seen of it, it's actually fast. It just can't straight-out fly. I guess people just assumed that since it has artillery it can't move good, which is a not-very-good assumption, look at Gundam Leopard and how fast it moves with its hover jets. The Blast Impulse dodged the Abyss' attacks when it popped out of the water from different directions, based on that and the speed of hover jets, it's not hard to see that it can actually dodge pretty god. Not to mention Shinn has a great barrier to block Kira's attacks: water. He just cuts his jets and falls into the water when Kira shoots at him and he doesn't have time to fully dodge. Water: the beautiful all-natural beam barrier. And remember that while solid weapons work underwater (the Freedom's rail cannons), they can't damage active PS armor.

And once again, there is absolutely no evidence that would say that Shinn would get beaten by Kira then.
Doms and the Leopard were meant to be terrestrial ms, so of course they're going to be fast on the ground.

You're forgetting that Freedom's arsenal doesn't consist of missiles or just the rail cannons, but beam weaponry that can be fired all at once. You're saying beam weapons can't penetrate water? Anyways, ok, so Impulse can go underwater, but did you forget Abyss is there as well? Yeah sure, Shinn defeated him, but if you got Freedom on the sky and Abyss on the water attacking you at the same time, I don't think that Shinn, as good as he is, can escape without Impulse being destroyed.

And if you really want to compare Abyss's speed to Freedom, then you should remember what happened when Freedom targetted Abyss while standing still when Abyss was moving on the water. So you can't say that because Blast Impulse can dodge Abyss's attack, it will be the same as dodging Freedom's attack.

I'm not saying that Blast Impulse is slow/sluggish, but compared to Freedom, it's not fast enough.
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Old 2006-01-31, 18:25   Link #503
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we don't know who would have won in blast impulse vs freedom there are too many variables.
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Old 2006-01-31, 19:00   Link #504
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who cares... its bloody hell freedom.... Its an uber suit... It will win.. Period..... That's how the show was going.. And that's how it ended.... Without much of a fight from Destiny or Legend. SF and IJ just whopped Dulindal's fleet all by themselves which is enough reason to justify the answer to the question "What caused GSD to fail?"

Its a one sided, lop sided, uneven matchup that has no tension nor any sort of interesting story or plot that would make this show beyond average.

One side always winnning.. One side seemingly out of the blue always having the best pilots while the other doesn't even come close to having a competent pilot.
One side seemingly have 2 suits able to take down an entire enemy fleet of say 1000 MS despite the other side having a weapon that could wipe out entire fleets.

Where's the good guy udnerdog tag? Where's the bad guy all superioir mighty feel? None. So if god guy always win and starts of with the biggest baddest suits for the entire series, you have a formula for disaster. Should have let Freedom lived and repaired and have it paired up against Destiny. That would be a great finale. A one level down suit up against the most powerful suit and have the underdog win.
Instead we have Asuran just leisurely taking his time in dismembering Destiny piece by piece with no sign at all, that Shinn will be a threat..

That's why GSD is such a terrible show in many people's eyes. I personally think its not the worst.. Neither is it the best. And unfortunately not even OK.. Its sub par "we've seen too much of this" problem... It didn't even bothered with new designs for Kira ans Asuran just Mk2 versions of their previous suits.

THey borrowed everything from everywhere and everybody.. Dragoons... Newtype without being newtype? WTF? And let's not get started with Akatsuki with its 4 DRAGOONS being able to make a shield ala Fin Funnel...
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Old 2006-01-31, 21:08   Link #505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Last_Hope
If Athrun hadn´t intervened Kira´s attempts to get to Shinn (after Shinn fired at Athrun´s fiancée) he would pretty much have had both Freedom and Abyss going after his ass. It´s hard to see Shinn getting out from such a situation unharmed.
Errr, Kira would've taken out Auel you know, he wouldn't be teaming up with him...


Quote:
Originally Posted by monstert
Doms and the Leopard were meant to be terrestrial ms, so of course they're going to be fast on the ground.

You're forgetting that Freedom's arsenal doesn't consist of missiles or just the rail cannons, but beam weaponry that can be fired all at once. You're saying beam weapons can't penetrate water? Anyways, ok, so Impulse can go underwater, but did you forget Abyss is there as well? Yeah sure, Shinn defeated him, but if you got Freedom on the sky and Abyss on the water attacking you at the same time, I don't think that Shinn, as good as he is, can escape without Impulse being destroyed.

And if you really want to compare Abyss's speed to Freedom, then you should remember what happened when Freedom targetted Abyss while standing still when Abyss was moving on the water. So you can't say that because Blast Impulse can dodge Abyss's attack, it will be the same as dodging Freedom's attack.

I'm not saying that Blast Impulse is slow/sluggish, but compared to Freedom, it's not fast enough.
Well yeah, they're fast because they have hover jets. So does Blast Impulse.

Beam weapons are very ineffective underwater or when trying to hit stuff underwater. We all know that. It's been proven in at least two Gundam series. (Gundam X, original MSG) Unless you have a large, powerful beam cannon like the Gundam X's Divider Cannon, which backfired on Garroad from the recoil, but Kira doesn't have anything on that level. Kira's beams would just hit the surface and dissipate very quickly in the water. Maybe the plasma cannons could get a little depth, but they'd be significantly reduced in strength, and the beam rifle would be totally useless. And the rail cannons, as said, don't damage PS Armor. And as I said above to Last Hope, if Shinn had focused on Kira and not taken out Auel, Kira would've taken out Auel anyway. You're suggesting that Kira would leave Auel alone? Errr....I don't think so. Kira would be like "Hey, there's one I didn't get," *SLASH*.

Errr, I also remember that the rail cannons penetrated the Abyss' PS Armor engine covers in that episode. Hey, whatever happened to PS armor being invulnerable to solid weapons? Plot device, anyone? Even if you say the engine covers weren't PS (which would defeat the purpose of having them in the first place, if the engine covers aren't at least as strong as the MS's main armor) there's still the all-godly plot-device of Fukuda that ran rampant in GSEED, and then was expanded to include named and skilled pilots in GSD: all Kira-targeted pilots lose piloting ability/dodging ability just so Kira can take them down, unless the plot calls for something else, like the plot device that got the Freedom destroyed by Impulse so Kira could get S-F. >.> Shinn lost his dodging ability and got owned. Auel lost his dodging ability and got owned. Heine lost his dodging ability, as well as his aim, and got owned. All by Kira. Damn plot devices. And in PHASE 28, how did Kira slash off both of the Chaos' arms and its backpack weapons in one beam saber slash without hitting the main body or head, anyway? >.>

And as I said before, from what we've seen of it, the Blast Impulse is pretty darn fast and quick on the reaction. There's absolutely no evidence to say it's not fast enough to compete with Freedom, it just can't fly, which isn't that big of an advantage if you keep your head. (and aren't plot-deviced)
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Old 2006-01-31, 21:16   Link #506
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BLAST-IMPULSE which I believe is somewhat inferior to FREEDOM...dodged it....It dodged FREEDOM (open your eyes)...Who dodges FREEDOM? I'd say that proves it's fast enuff...It also sucks you into melee fighting based on it's limited vertical ability (Hard to say if this would be effective on uber-suits other than the ranged-mecha FREEDOM)...In addition it has enuff weapons to engage in ranged fighting...Now if Kira was piloting BLAST-IMPULSE and Shinn was in FREEDOM all you monkeys would be giving IMPULSE a banana saying it prolly is fast enuff...
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Old 2006-01-31, 21:45   Link #507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji103
Well yeah, they're fast because they have hover jets. So does Blast Impulse.

Beam weapons are very ineffective underwater or when trying to hit stuff underwater. We all know that. It's been proven in at least two Gundam series. (Gundam X, original MSG) Unless you have a large, powerful beam cannon like the Gundam X's Divider Cannon, which backfired on Garroad from the recoil, but Kira doesn't have anything on that level. Kira's beams would just hit the surface and dissipate very quickly in the water. Maybe the plasma cannons could get a little depth, but they'd be significantly reduced in strength, and the beam rifle would be totally useless. And the rail cannons, as said, don't damage PS Armor. And as I said above to Last Hope, if Shinn had focused on Kira and not taken out Auel, Kira would've taken out Auel anyway. You're suggesting that Kira would leave Auel alone? Errr....I don't think so. Kira would be like "Hey, there's one I didn't get," *SLASH*.

Errr, I also remember that the rail cannons penetrated the Abyss' PS Armor engine covers in that episode. Hey, whatever happened to PS armor being invulnerable to solid weapons? Plot device, anyone? Even if you say the engine covers weren't PS (which would defeat the purpose of having them in the first place, if the engine covers aren't at least as strong as the MS's main armor) there's still the all-godly plot-device of Fukuda that ran rampant in GSEED, and then was expanded to include named and skilled pilots in GSD: all Kira-targeted pilots lose piloting ability/dodging ability just so Kira can take them down, unless the plot calls for something else, like the plot device that got the Freedom destroyed by Impulse so Kira could get S-F. >.> Shinn lost his dodging ability and got owned. Auel lost his dodging ability and got owned. Heine lost his dodging ability, as well as his aim, and got owned. All by Kira. Damn plot devices. And in PHASE 28, how did Kira slash off both of the Chaos' arms and its backpack weapons in one beam saber slash without hitting the main body or head, anyway? >.>

And as I said before, from what we've seen of it, the Blast Impulse is pretty darn fast and quick on the reaction. There's absolutely no evidence to say it's not fast enough to compete with Freedom, it just can't fly, which isn't that big of an advantage if you keep your head. (and aren't plot-deviced)
Like I said before, Blast Impulse may be fast, but it's not as fast as Freedom's HiMAT mode.

I'm not saying that Kira would team up with Auel, but just look what happened to Heine. Are you saying then that Kira teamed up with Stellar? The samething could've happened with Shinn, in fact it almost did. Shinn was preoccupied with the fight between Athrun and Kira that he forgot all about Auel.

So you expect Shinn to stay underwater during the entire battle? Did you see what Auel did to Shinn? He forced Shinn to fight out of the water, why? Because Shinn is not the type of pilot to just run away. Eventually he'll go up to attack and that's where Freedom has the advantage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
BLAST-IMPULSE which I believe is somewhat inferior to FREEDOM...dodged it....It dodged FREEDOM (open your eyes)...Who dodges FREEDOM? I'd say that proves it's fast enuff...It also sucks you into melee fighting based on it's limited vertical ability (Hard to say if this would be effective on uber-suits other than the ranged-mecha FREEDOM)...In addition it has enuff weapons to engage in ranged fighting...Now if Kira was piloting BLAST-IMPULSE and Shinn was in FREEDOM all you monkeys would be giving IMPULSE a banana saying it prolly is fast enuff...
You've watched Naruto haven't you, wingdarkness? You remember what Chidori's weakness is?

When it comes to melee fighting, all you need is a beam saber and a shield, both of which Freedom has, so no problem there.

Even if Kira was in Blast Impulse, I'd still say, given the situation, Freedom is still faster than Blast Impulse.
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Old 2006-01-31, 21:59   Link #508
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^Didn't get the Naruto reference...Chidori's weakness is you can only do it 2 times before you threaten your life, right? 3rd time you die (unless your a horrible looking anime character with green goblin-gloves on your back as wings [Sasgay] )

Correct me if my understanding isn't there, but isn't it a question of whether or not BLAST-IMPULSE is fast enuff to compete...It doesn't have to be faster, just fast enuff (and it seems to be)...BLAST IMPULSE also has a beam-Javelin for close-quarters fighting (inwich Shinn > Kira)...Ranged fighting is also something it can do (although Kira > Shinn in that categorey)...Against a suit with twice the mobility and speed burst in ABYSS it handled itself rather well (again melee-grappling took place and it actually won the fight in that context)...Given the situation of ep 28 BLAST-IMPULSE proved itself to be more than a challenge...And given Shinn's mindstate in that ep, i'm not sure if anyone could have definitively beat him...He was on a mission...

I'd certainley throw some popcorn in the microwave to see what could have been if Athrun wouldn't have hastily interferred...
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Old 2006-01-31, 22:19   Link #509
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Actually, that's Sasuke's weakness. Chidori's weakness is that since it's a direct attack, it's easy for the enemy to dodge and even counter (That's why you need the Sharingan to see your opponent's countermove). And that's what happen: Kira just went on for a direct attack, Shinn dodged it and countered.

Now if Kira had pressed the attack, since Freedom practically rules the sky, while Shinn is stuck in between the sky and the sea, chances are that Freedom will destroy Blast Impulse. Kira has more room to maneuver and fight at the same time.

Another thing is how long can Impulse last? Let's say they outmaneuver each other during the fight, eventually Impulse's power will be depleted. Freedom can destroy it then.
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Old 2006-01-31, 22:50   Link #510
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Shinn has sharingan WTF? Well his eyes are red ...

All I know is every character ever (Including Athrun) to face the FREEDOM slash has been hysterically PWNd except Shinn Asuka in BLAST-IMPULSE...That has to count for something...BLAST-IMPULSE can last as long as it has to...when it's power runs down it simply can change silhouettes and get a D-beam juice up...Just like FREEDOM has spammagedden, IMPULSE works and was concieved directly to work with Minerva...When you face IMPULSE you face it's full capability...Shinn has proven he knows how to use IMPULSE to the max and can change parts and use small time-intervals to juice up when he has to...What's funny is the noble Kira would probably allow him to do all of this...So while FREEDOM is a better overall suit, BLAST can still and is fast enuff to compete (which is all I'm saying)...
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Old 2006-01-31, 23:00   Link #511
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Only the charger needs Sharingan, not the dodger.

Well, I'm not trying to downplay Shinn's achievement in that episode. I think I've told you before that this particular scene was one of my favorites from the series. I'm just saying that it shouldn't be the basis for saying that Shinn could withstand Freedom's attacks with Blast Impulse if they were in a real fight. And it takes time for new packs to be delivered and used if you're stranded on the water, in the meantime Impulse could still be destroyed. And you know Kira's not that noble.
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Old 2006-02-01, 01:16   Link #512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by servitude
who cares... its bloody hell freedom.... Its an uber suit... It will win.. Period..... That's how the show was going.. And that's how it ended.... Without much of a fight from Destiny or Legend. SF and IJ just whopped Dulindal's fleet all by themselves which is enough reason to justify the answer to the question "What caused GSD to fail?"

Its a one sided, lop sided, uneven matchup that has no tension nor any sort of interesting story or plot that would make this show beyond average.

One side always winnning.. One side seemingly out of the blue always having the best pilots while the other doesn't even come close to having a competent pilot.
One side seemingly have 2 suits able to take down an entire enemy fleet of say 1000 MS despite the other side having a weapon that could wipe out entire fleets.

Where's the good guy udnerdog tag? Where's the bad guy all superioir mighty feel? None. So if god guy always win and starts of with the biggest baddest suits for the entire series, you have a formula for disaster. Should have let Freedom lived and repaired and have it paired up against Destiny. That would be a great finale. A one level down suit up against the most powerful suit and have the underdog win.
Instead we have Asuran just leisurely taking his time in dismembering Destiny piece by piece with no sign at all, that Shinn will be a threat..

That's why GSD is such a terrible show in many people's eyes. I personally think its not the worst.. Neither is it the best. And unfortunately not even OK.. Its sub par "we've seen too much of this" problem... It didn't even bothered with new designs for Kira ans Asuran just Mk2 versions of their previous suits.

THey borrowed everything from everywhere and everybody.. Dragoons... Newtype without being newtype? WTF? And let's not get started with Akatsuki with its 4 DRAGOONS being able to make a shield ala Fin Funnel...
Good guys ALWAYS WIN in any anime, cept for maybe 1 or 2 exceptions. Tell me how many animes you've watched where the good guys don't win.
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Old 2006-02-01, 01:26   Link #513
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Well actually, I'm planning on writing a trilogy, in book 1 of which the good guys get slaughtered

But about Shinn: he got as far as he did since Kira let him. Remember what happened when Luna/Shinn went against Athrun? Byebye Minerva. Kira just doesn't have the guts to shoot anything but a weapon or a camera. Seriously, the guy needs to learn the Shinn-style of disabling.
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Old 2006-02-01, 02:54   Link #514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji103
Errr, Kira would've taken out Auel you know, he wouldn't be teaming up with him...
I do think Kira would have prioritized taking out Impulse before Abyss, which was what he was trying to do. Even though Kira wouldn´t team-up with Auel in Abyss Shinn would still have found himself in a 2 on 1 situation.

So Shinn should be happy that Athrun intervened and took all of Kira´s attention.
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Old 2006-02-01, 03:59   Link #515
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mostert: As WD said, Blast Impulse doesn't have to be faster, just fast enough. A Gundam doesn't need to be the Flash to dodge missiles and beams.

Umm, Kira wasn't attacking Heine when Stellar came at him. (plus, plot-device >.> ) Thus how could he have possibly been teaming up with her? Different situation.
You're saying that Kira would be attacking Shinn and so would Auel, at the same time. In response I'm saying Kira would take down Auel, not leave him alone.

I don't expect Shinn to stay underwater the whole fight, but he's got the perfect barrier right below him. He certainly could stay underwater the whole fight if he wanted though, and just pop out and shoot when he wanted to.

Once again, you don't get it. How does the inability to fly while fighting a flying suit = you lose? Flying is not as big an advantage as you're making it out to be. As I've said before, Camille and Char, in their non-flying suits, did very well against the Asshimar and Gaplant, which could both fly. They even beat them.


Morisato: I believe servitude was talking about how incredibly one-sided and unrealistic the good guys' victory in GSD was...


Demongod: You have the usual habit of ignoring the fact that you're beloved old cast owes 85% of its achievements to Fukuda's plot-devicing, rather than their own abilities.


Last Hope: No, Kira wouldn't side with anybody, if he ignored Abyss and just attacked Impulse, he'd be siding with Abyss, no matter how you look at it. Not to mention what makes you think Auel would ignore Freedom? If Kira sees a break in the fire, he'd go after Auel. If he saw a break in Auel's fire, he'd go after Shinn.
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Old 2006-02-01, 05:29   Link #516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
Shinn has sharingan WTF? Well his eyes are red ...

All I know is every character ever (Including Athrun) to face the FREEDOM slash has been hysterically PWNd except Shinn Asuka in BLAST-IMPULSE...That has to count for something...BLAST-IMPULSE can last as long as it has to...when it's power runs down it simply can change silhouettes and get a D-beam juice up...Just like FREEDOM has spammagedden, IMPULSE works and was concieved directly to work with Minerva...When you face IMPULSE you face it's full capability...Shinn has proven he knows how to use IMPULSE to the max and can change parts and use small time-intervals to juice up when he has to...What's funny is the noble Kira would probably allow him to do all of this...So while FREEDOM is a better overall suit, BLAST can still and is fast enuff to compete (which is all I'm saying)...
changing packs = opening for Freedom pwnage (though we know what happened when Shinn was actually smart and shot the old silhouette at Freedom and blew it up, but still, live, learn, counter )
getting juiced up = opening for Freedom pwnage

noble or not.....enemy has an opening...you go for it, I doubt Kira would be different, he'd just destroy the spare parts that would pop out since they take time to form :P
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Old 2006-02-01, 05:36   Link #517
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Originally Posted by Shinji103
Last Hope: No, Kira wouldn't side with anybody, if he ignored Abyss and just attacked Impulse, he'd be siding with Abyss, no matter how you look at it. Not to mention what makes you think Auel would ignore Freedom? If Kira sees a break in the fire, he'd go after Auel. If he saw a break in Auel's fire, he'd go after Shinn.
Sure Kira would fire at Abyss aswell but looking at who it was Shinn fired against Iīm sure Kira would prioritize taking out Impulse over Abyss, unless Auel takes direct actions against Kira and Freedom. But I think Auel would probably prioritize attacking Impulse over Freedom, but for other reasons. And thus we have a 2 on 1 situation.

If Athrun hadnīt intervened I do think Shinn would have been shot down.
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Old 2006-02-01, 06:34   Link #518
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Originally Posted by DjTrizz
changing packs = opening for Freedom pwnage (though we know what happened when Shinn was actually smart and shot the old silhouette at Freedom and blew it up, but still, live, learn, counter )
getting juiced up = opening for Freedom pwnage

noble or not.....enemy has an opening...you go for it, I doubt Kira would be different, he'd just destroy the spare parts that would pop out since they take time to form :P
hehe, you guys really like to push the limits of my debating skills don't you ...

Remember (like I said before)...when you face IMPULSE you face it's full capabilities...Shinn can simply duck under the water, indiscriminatly fire at FREEDOM while he relays to the Minerva to synchronize sending him FORCE with a weapons barrage aimed at FREEDOM...while FREEDOM goes HiMAT (to pwn the incoming missiles) he changes modes...Now this is obviously a stand-alone scenerio, but in the context of C.E. fighting he'd have time...All he needs is 10 secs for D-Beam juice up and about 15secs for part-changing...30 secs properly synched with a Minerva attack and he'd make it happen...You have to understand for a second that Kira ALWAYS is a deer in headlights when an opponent does something he hasn't seen before...Like dodge him (BLAST) or spam him (DESTROY) or DRAGOON him (PROVIDENCE)...He rarely ever anticipates his opponents doing something unconventional (Now after he sees it for the first time he adjusts accordingly, except for when he totally got handled by DESTROY)...but at ep 28 Kira had yet to see IMPULSE change modes (so advantage Shinn)...
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Old 2006-02-01, 08:21   Link #519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monstert
Only the charger needs Sharingan, not the dodger.
Um, since when did Chidori needs a Sharingan user for it to be able to work? Granted that its users have Sharingan, it doesn't mean that they have to have Sharingan. What they need is fast enough speed...regardless of whether one has Sharingan or not...they maybe need the Sharingan to know what the other's doing, but since you have to be really fast before that could happen...even if the Sharingan user sees that he's going to make a run for it or has already run away, I don't see how they would be able to change the attack trajectory that fast...the Chidori was made to be a last ditch effort to pwn an opponent...but then again my Naruto knowledge is muddled up so...>.>;;

Sasuke had Sharingan on and he charged at Itachi using Chidori but was pwned anyway... well, there goes the "usefulness" of the Sharingan for you...

I think this kind of explains the Blast Impulse Freedom thing quite well, too, like Sharingan = SEED; they were both SEED that time, but Shinn (as Itachi in this case) just dodged the "Chidori" (Kira and his beam saber as Sasuke in this case).

@ Last Hope

Get this straight, EAF and the Archangel aren't buddies. It just so happened that Archangel that time was just nice enough to drop in and cause hell for ZAFT.
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Old 2006-02-01, 09:25   Link #520
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I think people are forgeting that this isn't a stand alone 1 on 1 or 2 on 1 here. This was a battle between Zaft and the EA/ Orb forces and the Arcangel as the middle men trying to stop both sides of fighting. There are too many elements to say what will or would happen if Athrun didn't stop Kira of fight Shinn.
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