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Old 2006-02-07, 10:50   Link #581
KuwabaraTheMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
Shinn is now a lap-dawg to Kira's ideals just like everyone of his haters wanted him to be... So enjoy, nothing more to say...you guys won...
How is a Shinn a lap dog to Kira? He just shook hands with him and said they'd fight together in the future.

So was Char a lapdog to Amuro because they fought together in Zeta?

Shinn was fighting in Destiny to protect his friends and his home nation. Seeing as how Kira's lover is now holding an important position in Shinn's home nation, chances are Kira is fighting for that same thing, and their ideals won't be conflicting in the future, because of that.

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Originally Posted by Myname
You're right, Shinn was a puppet.

His so called "actions" were just "orders" that he obediently obeys.
Way to not pay attention. Shinn wasn't even convinced ZAFT was right at all. He was being swayed by Athrun's words, but Rey's words confused him, and kept him there.

The reason he stayed fighting for ZAFT as he states numerous times like before the Minerva Team killed Djibril, was to protect Lunamaria, the Minerva, and the PLANTs. So is Shinn some obedient puppet because he wanted to protect his friends?

He was even shown to be uncertain about the Destiny Plan, and didn't think it was a good idea, but he allowed his friendship with Rey to keep him around, because Shinn trusted Rey.
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Seriously though, I dont know why there are still "Shinn Fans" that still try and defend him. Can you not accept the truth that Shinn caused the demise of GSD, because its true? Why, I dont even know why Shinn fans still exist, you may hate Kira but at least he got character development during his debut.
Shinn got more development then any CE character ever has, much more then Kira did.

How did Shinn cause the demise of Destiny? The series was excellent for a long, long time. It was only at the very end(last 5 episodes), when Kira came in and stole the spotlight, that the show started sucking.

When Shinn was the main character we got great episodes like the fight in Episode 28, the Stellar plotline(inspired by Zeta, yes, but still great), the battle onf Heaven's Base, Shinn's terrible feelings when he thought he had killed Athrun, his resolve to protect his friends even though he was growing increasingly uncertain about the Chairman's ideals.

How can you even say that Shinn had no development and that he caused the series demise?

Its pretty clear that Kira is responsible for the demise, since the show didn't become bad until Kira stole the spotlight from Shinn at the last moment.
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Old 2006-02-07, 17:33   Link #582
cajunman380
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How is a Shinn a lap dog to Kira? He just shook hands with him and said they'd fight together in the future.

So was Char a lapdog to Amuro because they fought together in Zeta?

Shinn was fighting in Destiny to protect his friends and his home nation. Seeing as how Kira's lover is now holding an important position in Shinn's home nation, chances are Kira is fighting for that same thing, and their ideals won't be conflicting in the future, because of that.


////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

I will answer your question. many shinn fans are angry at the fact that the way it was done was extremely forced. shinn got virtually no development in the series and in the last original episode he doesnt even get closure. now they have this final plus in which shinn apparently forgets all the things kira did to him and many feel its a cop out. i mean kira didnt even apologize for some of his actions which makes me not like him. kira attacks minerva, kills stellar, and is basocally against shinn throughout the series. (or as the writers attempted to portray). there wasnt even a final battle between the two (even though shinn is supposed to be the main character). many fans are just angry because it was BADLLY DONE and did nothing to correct the mistakes of the second half of seed destiny. Kira came off as an untouchable god and shinn who had this attitude that starkly contrasted kira is suddenly shaking hands with him? that comes off to me as unrealistic as reys last episode turnaround. these wroiters need to read manga if they are ever gonna get a clue on character development.



and to those who say shinn was the sole reason that caused gsd to fail. umm that cant be since he barly got any screen time throughout the series. hell his mobile suit destinly only has three animation moves!!!!!!
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Old 2006-02-07, 21:43   Link #583
monster
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Originally Posted by cajunman380
there wasnt even a final battle between the two
From what I remembered, a lot of people, at least in this forum, wanted a Shinn vs Athrun battle instead. And that's what they get.
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and to those who say shinn was the sole reason that caused gsd to fail. umm that cant be since he barly got any screen time throughout the series. hell his mobile suit destinly only has three animation moves!!!!!!
Really? I think Shinn got decent amount, if not a lot, of screen time.

And no, I'm not saying he's the sole reason that GSD failed, because I don't think so at all.

In fact, all the animes I've watched (minus a few) have been entertaining to some degree, which makes it a success in my view. GSD just happens to be one of them.
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Old 2006-02-07, 22:46   Link #584
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Shinn had alot of screen-time, but after ep 35 does any of it matter??
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Old 2006-02-08, 02:34   Link #585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
Shinn had alot of screen-time, but after ep 35 does any of it matter??
Well, I think up to 45 he was still pretty much the main character, excluding a couple of moments like the SF debut, and the Kira/Athrun clip show. I mean, we still got Heaven's Base and Requiem in there. Not to mention the Athrun defecting plot line was pretty important to Shinn's character. But once the end of the series came he was shoved off to the side.
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Old 2006-02-08, 02:36   Link #586
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Looked to me like he lost the main character role a bit sooner than 45.
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Old 2006-02-08, 03:02   Link #587
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KuwabaraTheMan you seem like a Shinn-supporter so I'll go easy on you...It has been said before but if you look at it just academically for all intents and purposes Shinn's character's importance ends in ep 35 after the end of FREEDOM...His characters' impact on the plot and story has little to no importance at all following that (His actions no longer drive the story, he just serves as a pawn for the rest of the series)...and as stated plenty of times, the final episode (Original and Final plus) disgraced the hell out of his character and piloting skills...Only Kira fans or fence-sitters approve of that character-raping that takes place in the Final plus (I have yet to hear ONE Shinn-fan or supporter be content with this)...

To be even more upfront about this DESTINY not getting the final pose in the last theme, being sandwiched behind Rey's a$$ in the endtheme with Kira and Athrun doing the polka at the top of the screen with their mechs, and Shinn having his face smooshed behind Kira's in the open theme were the harbinger of Shinn being tossed away as a main character...You are one of the few people I've heard that may not be considering all that I've discussed...
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Old 2006-02-08, 03:29   Link #588
[DarkazurESky]
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I believe Sunrise production team can't create good series within 50 epis.
It was slow at begining so we could adapt the progression but last ten episodes were rushed as if Sunrise went into bankruptcy.

I believe GSD start to fell apart at episode 32 or 33. Up until 32 or 33 GSD did fine considering 17 epis are left. But considering nothing happened afterwards so here are disappoinments that nothingness brought.
1. Steller, Auel, and Sting never developed as characters and as pilots. If they improved as Shinn and Rey did, they would have fought very well and brought entertainment.
2. Steller being a sister figure to Shinn. Steller could have converse with Shinn such as "I was kidnapped," "Went to severe training," and "I like you as my ani-ue-sama." If they conversed like this, we would go "SO SAD!" When she dies and would not think "Shinn did not talked to her that much so why would he go so crazy over her."
3. Lunamaria's sudden change of her taste. She was hot and liked Athrun as if he was next door neighbor and she suddenly fall in love with Shinn. This pairing is worst than any pairing. The reason is that Shinn was the killer of Meyrin and he says "I will protect you no matter what." What is he saying!? I mean I would just kill my best friend if he killed my own sister! If Luna first said "Shinn ai shiteruyo," than Shinn and she developed close frieendship it would have seemed like a plot not a joke that is not funny.
4. Shinn's uncertainty. He was manipulated with ease all the way to the end of GSD. Where is story when he goes "I am really sure," than goes "Let me think it over." But Rey just blad something and he is back to square one.
If Shinn did something that was his own reasoning, than the story would seem to have a twist.
5. Suddent 100M rash from 20KM marathon. The story would have been much smoother if there were no recaps at last 10 episodes. I mean at 41st epi there were two recaps than suddenly two more recap are shown. The last battle should have lasted at most two more episodes! We only saw Luna battling about 20 seconds. Are producers sure Luna is an elite?! The battle is some hightlites of mecha series and Sunrise blew it.
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Old 2006-02-08, 03:45   Link #589
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4. Shinn's uncertainty. He was manipulated with ease all the way to the end of GSD. Where is story when he goes "I am really sure," than goes "Let me think it over." But Rey just blad something and he is back to square one.
If Shinn did something that was his own reasoning, than the story would seem to have a twist.
You know what would've have been a perfect time for this...I always thought in episode 43 after The Minerva gives the signal for them to retreat it would have been so dope if Shinn would've just thought about it for a second or 2 then just attacked while everybody were powering down...That would have been a great tension and suprising moment...He could've attacked Athrun even more nearly killing him, before FREEDOM interjects and then we have a scene with Athrun dying in his cockpit underwater while Kira and Shinn continue to fight...Rey no doubt would do something like fire on the AA or JUSTICE with it's defences down, then all hell breaks loose again with the threat of a main characters losing their life...Oh that could've been soooo good...
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Old 2006-02-08, 03:55   Link #590
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Originally Posted by wingdarkness
You know what would've have been a perfect time for this...I always thought in episode 43 after The Minerva gives the signal for them to retreat it would have been so dope if Shinn would've just thought about it for a second or 2 then just attacked while everybody were powering down...That would have been a great tension and suprising moment...He could've attacked Athrun even more nearly killing him, before FREEDOM interjects and then we have a scene with Athrun dying in his cockpit underwater while Kira and Shinn continue to fight...Rey no doubt would do something like fire on the AA or JUSTICE with it's defences down, then all hell breaks loose again with the threat of a main characters losing their life...Oh that could've been soooo good...
Not such a good idea since at least one of Destiny's arms and its sword were destroyed by I-J already. Add that to the fact that nobody was powering down until ZAFT completely withdrew. But, like you said, it would be interesting to see nonetheless.
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Old 2006-02-08, 04:06   Link #591
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monstert stop being such a stick in the mud (Although it's hard to get mad at you cause your so Yamato-ish )...

GSD contrived so many other things they could have easily contrived this too...I'm not being totally literal here...Obviously the scene would have to be rewritten a bit...and like I said Shinn wasn't going to just do it, he would've waited a bit...In other words just go with it instead of finding fault with it...
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Old 2006-02-08, 04:08   Link #592
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lol, sorry, I don't have much of an imagination, so I can only imagine Shinn waiting a few seconds and attack while keeping everything else the same.
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Old 2006-02-08, 04:53   Link #593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
You know what would've have been a perfect time for this...I always thought in episode 43 after The Minerva gives the signal for them to retreat it would have been so dope if Shinn would've just thought about it for a second or 2 then just attacked while everybody were powering down...That would have been a great tension and suprising moment...He could've attacked Athrun even more nearly killing him, before FREEDOM interjects and then we have a scene with Athrun dying in his cockpit underwater while Kira and Shinn continue to fight...Rey no doubt would do something like fire on the AA or JUSTICE with it's defences down, then all hell breaks loose again with the threat of a main characters losing their life...Oh that could've been soooo good...
you know i like that it would had been great
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Old 2006-02-08, 15:07   Link #594
KuwabaraTheMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
KuwabaraTheMan you seem like a Shinn-supporter so I'll go easy on you...It has been said before but if you look at it just academically for all intents and purposes Shinn's character's importance ends in ep 35 after the end of FREEDOM...His characters' impact on the plot and story has little to no importance at all following that (His actions no longer drive the story, he just serves as a pawn for the rest of the series)...and as stated plenty of times, the final episode (Original and Final plus) disgraced the hell out of his character and piloting skills...Only Kira fans or fence-sitters approve of that character-raping that takes place in the Final plus (I have yet to hear ONE Shinn-fan or supporter be content with this)...
I agree for the most part, but I think even if you want to look at it that way you've got to say at least through 37 he was still the main character, and the most important. Once the end stretch happened he got destroyed.

As for Final Plus, I enjoyed the epilogue. Shinn's discussion about his feelings on Orb felt completely in character and in line with how he had been characterized in the series. I wish we had seen more with him, and there had been more stuff with him, and that they had changed it so that he beat Athrun instead of losing, but I thought the epilogue itself stayed true to Shinn's character.
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To be even more upfront about this DESTINY not getting the final pose in the last theme, being sandwiched behind Rey's a$$ in the endtheme with Kira and Athrun doing the polka at the top of the screen with their mechs, and Shinn having his face smooshed behind Kira's in the open theme were the harbinger of Shinn being tossed away as a main character...You are one of the few people I've heard that may not be considering all that I've discussed...
I'll agree on that, he got bad treatment in the theme songs, but it didn't always spill over into the series until the final stretch.

I mean, Strike Freedom got the main shot during "Bokutachi no Yukue", but Shinn had by far the most screentime during its run, and Strike Freedom didn't even show up until Wings of Words took over, the animation in the songs was always shak at best.
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Old 2006-02-08, 16:00   Link #595
Demongod86
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Errr, WD, what would Shinn have attacked with? His little beam rifle? Athrun's adrenaline didn't go out until he saw Legend/Destiny retreating.
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Old 2006-02-08, 16:46   Link #596
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Shin ran circles around SF with his beam rifle after his AS sword was disarmed by SF. So he coulda done it.... except didnt Athrun slice through both his arms? its been awhile and I have only the vaguest recollection of most events from GSD.
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Old 2006-02-08, 17:13   Link #597
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Originally Posted by [DarkazurESky]
1. Steller, Auel, and Sting never developed as characters and as pilots. If they improved as Shinn and Rey did, they would have fought very well and brought entertainment.
That falls under a much greater issue with the treatment and portrayal of the EAF, which happens to be MY biggest gripe about Destiny...
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Old 2006-02-08, 17:25   Link #598
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Originally Posted by Demongod86
Errr, WD, what would Shinn have attacked with? His little beam rifle? Athrun's adrenaline didn't go out until he saw Legend/Destiny retreating.
Get a clue..I said it WOULD HAVE BEEN dope...Write it however you need to....Go old school Gundam and have Shin kick the rifle outta Kira's hand then he Palm fiona's JUSTICE...Remember the scene is not the same as in the anime...In my version everyone assumes Shinn is retreating...

...anyways, just leave me alone...I'm tired of having to ying every yang with you...
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Old 2006-02-10, 10:25   Link #599
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KuwabaraTheMan
I agree for the most part, but I think even if you want to look at it that way you've got to say at least through 37 he was still the main character, and the most important. Once the end stretch happened he got destroyed.
No, I don't think so. He was offed in the infamous Kira getting Freedomed episode.

Quote:
As for Final Plus, I enjoyed the epilogue. Shinn's discussion about his feelings on Orb felt completely in character and in line with how he had been characterized in the series. I wish we had seen more with him, and there had been more stuff with him, and that they had changed it so that he beat Athrun instead of losing, but I thought the epilogue itself stayed true to Shinn's character.
What his with Kira? Given Shinn's strongly written character he wouldn't accept Kira's hand even if his VERY life depended on it. Who are we kidding? Of course this is a VERY wonderful present to the Yamato fans, so...

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I'll agree on that, he got bad treatment in the theme songs, but it didn't always spill over into the series until the final stretch.
Ever since Kira showed up in "Ignited", I've already felt warning bells go off in my head. GAWD Shinn's DOOMED.

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I mean, Strike Freedom got the main shot during "Bokutachi no Yukue", but Shinn had by far the most screentime during its run, and Strike Freedom didn't even show up until Wings of Words took over, the animation in the songs was always shak at best.
Um...Destiny Gundam WAS the show's main series Gundam, so that should mean something...

Quote:
1. Steller, Auel, and Sting never developed as characters and as pilots. If they improved as Shinn and Rey did, they would have fought very well and brought entertainment.
When did a good anime show suddenly become good entertainment? Of course we watch to get entertained, but we also watch to be especially pleased with the story, that it affected us in many ways, that it made us think some through our worst choices that we made, and so on and so forth. Gundam wasn't always about cool mechs and cool love pairings. It had always been about war and its effects on the ordinary people who were involved in it.

Those characters aren't just there for mere entertainment. They weren't there just because they were random cannon fodder that could go totally useless at a flick of Fukuda's magic wand, but it happened. Given their expertise, they were lots better than the original druggie trio that they didn't need much maintenance but they didn't do much against the Coordinators. Hell, the original druggie trio actually made Athrun and Kira helpless...

They had character, for all the many episodes they were in (yes, they were sadly degenerated to filler characters), much more than the original cast. Stellar wasn't just a 5 year old trapped in a girl's body; it was clear that she was as normal as you and I are, just sucks that she only gets to speak third person sentences. She has hopes, she has dreams, and she has emotions. She did everything for her Neo sama, and she did this all without faltering in her belief that Neo was everything for her. She believed that Shinn would protect her. She knew that Auel and Sting were there for her. Sting acted like a big brother to the both of them. Auel was overly protective of Stellar, and he could be a bit annoying at times, but that was part of his charms. Who could say that they weren't developed?

But since they were going against the GODLY main cast...

Quote:
2. Steller being a sister figure to Shinn. Steller could have converse with Shinn such as "I was kidnapped," "Went to severe training," and "I like you as my ani-ue-sama." If they conversed like this, we would go "SO SAD!" When she dies and would not think "Shinn did not talked to her that much so why would he go so crazy over her."
Stellar only had Neo on her mind, and Shinn was just a later addition. She couldn't help it if she was that way, that she couldn't say normal things normal people do; that she has to resort to saying childlike sentences. Shinn was in many ways affected by Stellar because Stellar was someone who was part of a war which he wanted to stop in his own way, and so therefore in conclusion Stellar was everyone he wanted to protect from the war. So it's not "it makes no sense why he was affected so much by Stellar".

Quote:
3. Lunamaria's sudden change of her taste. She was hot and liked Athrun as if he was next door neighbor and she suddenly fall in love with Shinn. This pairing is worst than any pairing. The reason is that Shinn was the killer of Meyrin and he says "I will protect you no matter what." What is he saying!? I mean I would just kill my best friend if he killed my own sister! If Luna first said "Shinn ai shiteruyo," than Shinn and she developed close frieendship it would have seemed like a plot not a joke that is not funny.
Well I agree with you here.

Quote:
4. Shinn's uncertainty. He was manipulated with ease all the way to the end of GSD. Where is story when he goes "I am really sure," than goes "Let me think it over." But Rey just blad something and he is back to square one.
If Shinn did something that was his own reasoning, than the story would seem to have a twist.
Um...he WAS? He did all those things on his own, he didn't need Dullindal to pixie dust him to achieving that path he took. Have you seen how he was so when Rey told him Athrun and Meyrin were evil spies, and how he was during that Messiah thing with Dullindal, and his when he took down Athrun? Heck, Athrun was someone he respected so much, but just because Rey and Dullindal already beat Athrun to him, it was no go Joe. It was the PHASE 50 that things took a very evil turn that turned even evil-ler in PHASE 51.

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5. Suddent 100M rash from 20KM marathon. The story would have been much smoother if there were no recaps at last 10 episodes. I mean at 41st epi there were two recaps than suddenly two more recap are shown. The last battle should have lasted at most two more episodes! We only saw Luna battling about 20 seconds. Are producers sure Luna is an elite?! The battle is some hightlites of mecha series and Sunrise blew it.
Even given more episodes, if Fukuda wants to end Shinn's character, he would still end it, or if he wanted to give more reason to Lacus' otherworldy GODDESS character, then so be it...but that would mean 5+ episodes more of rehashed action scenes, nonsensical nonsense, and why all good in the world is always able to defeat evil in the name of teh pink. It's no big wonder, really.
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Old 2006-02-10, 12:49   Link #600
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Originally Posted by Demongod86
Errr, WD, what would Shinn have attacked with? His little beam rifle? Athrun's adrenaline didn't go out until he saw Legend/Destiny retreating.
let's see the beam cannon,beam boomerangs,palm cannon and the anti-ship sword requires at least one hand.
you fail to notice 2 things 1. shinn wasn't aloud to defeat kira and athrun 2. the old cast achivments in the last 11 episodes where due to plot devices rather than their actual skills and that's what fukuda was counting on.
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