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Old 2009-02-22, 19:17   Link #821
SonOfHeaven
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I won't repeat what others been saying since I mainly agree. Didn't like the fact that characters from season 1 took over the show. The newly introduced characters like Shinn and his gang went from MC's to enemies working for the antagonist without much debate aka being used by him. And of course Shinn wasn't an interesting character.
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Old 2009-02-22, 19:20   Link #822
Demongod86
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Originally Posted by brightman View Post
It doesn't mean that they should get plot shields after they survive a series. Characters from the original MSG didn't stop dying after that series was over, they continued to be mortal afterwards in Z, ZZ and Char's Counterattack. It adds a whole different layer of believability when they don't just go around being invincible, especially since these guys basically represent one side of the conflict.
Well if you put it this way, let's analyze the battles:

Ep 13: Kira vs. Grunts. Obvious outcome.
Ep 24: Kira took everyone by surprise, outcome followed.
Ep 26: Kira vs. Grunts.
Ep 28: More like Shinn got the plot shield against Kira.
Ep 32: Why was Shinn able to land all the beam saber hits while Stella's destroy put up its shield every time Kira went in for a saber shot?
Ep 34: Kira got plothaxed by Fukuda. He even admitted it later "eh, I wasn't really trying..." I mean WTF...he was busy texting AA and not concentrating when there's a guy trying to kill him? O_o...
Ep 36 (??): (Athrun got goufed): probably the only "plot shield" instance for the GS characters.
Ep 39: Kira vs. Grunts (in SF!). Very obvious outcome here.
From then on: SF was objectively the best MS. If you want, you can blast the fact that Lacus gave Kira a machine which drew a Royal Flush in every single hand of poker. I mean come on...Dragoons, voiture lumiere, beam shields, all of Freedom's goodies (squared)...the only thing missing was a twin buster rifle and Trans-Am (although Lacus Dust >>> Trans-Am any day).

And then team Lacus had all of the other best suits...akatsuki is just ridiculous, and IJ makes Destiny look silly.

It isn't so much a plot shield vs. the fact that Lacus threw everything into Kira's and Athrun's suits, and a bag of chips along with an infinite supply of Lacus Dust to make sure she flattened the competition.

Now you can call WTF on that (be my guest), but I don't think there's any plot shield going on (that wasn't due to a plot device going the other way) aside from Athrun's gouf.
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Old 2009-02-22, 19:27   Link #823
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Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
It isn't so much a plot shield vs. the fact that Lacus threw everything into Kira's and Athrun's suits, and a bag of chips along with an infinite supply of Lacus Dust to make sure she flattened the competition.

Now you can call WTF on that (be my guest), but I don't think there's any plot shield going on (that wasn't due to a plot device going the other way) aside from Athrun's gouf.
Its not just about mobile suits, you know... Re: Ep 13 where a former technician, a cripple, and a guy who has shown that he had no idea what to do with a gun could take down a whole elite squad of ZAFT assassins.

Ep 34? AA gets hit bad by a giant cannon, half the ship was destroyed and no long term effects.

Ep 50, vastly outnumbered, not a single guy died.

Etc. Its not just about Freedom. Or Lacus. If you don't see a plot shield here then the problem is with you.
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Old 2009-02-22, 20:10   Link #824
justavisitor
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Spoiler for possible spoiler for ZZ:


And we can say no one in GS dies in GSD after we finished the GSD lol, when we watched GSD, we couldn't say for sure the character in GS wouldn't die in GSD...

Well, we may have to see the seed movie to figure out whether character in Seed are indeed immortals XD
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Old 2009-02-22, 20:44   Link #825
Demongod86
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Originally Posted by brightman View Post
Its not just about mobile suits, you know... Re: Ep 13 where a former technician, a cripple, and a guy who has shown that he had no idea what to do with a gun could take down a whole elite squad of ZAFT assassins.

Ep 34? AA gets hit bad by a giant cannon, half the ship was destroyed and no long term effects.

Ep 50, vastly outnumbered, not a single guy died.

Etc. Its not just about Freedom. Or Lacus. If you don't see a plot shield here then the problem is with you.
34: AA got grazed at worst. They had a hull breach, but didn't get any section blown off or anything crazy.

50: I believe we had 99 episodes prior to this to establish that numbers are literally meaningless in the CE universe unless you are near-equivalent in the gundams department. And this wasn't just for Team Lacus. I believe in ep 17 Shinn took down 30 Windams without ever getting hit?

And what about Heaven's Base, in which 3 gundams more or less pwnt the joint.
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Old 2009-02-22, 21:13   Link #826
brightman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
Spoiler for possible spoiler for ZZ:
Spoiler for Zeta spoiler:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
34: AA got grazed at worst. They had a hull breach, but didn't get any section blown off or anything crazy.
Yes they did. Watch Ep 35 again, they lost the entire back section.

Quote:
50: I believe we had 99 episodes prior to this to establish that numbers are literally meaningless in the CE universe unless you are near-equivalent in the gundams department. And this wasn't just for Team Lacus. I believe in ep 17 Shinn took down 30 Windams without ever getting hit?
Once again we're NOT talking about mobile suits... Orb had like 8 ships or something silly like that fighting against the entire ZAFT space force, and came out without losing anybody important.
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Old 2009-02-22, 21:15   Link #827
Rising Dragon
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Um... wasn't the back engines jettisoned from the Archangel deliberately, in an attempt to goad the Minerva into thinking it had destroyed the Archangel?
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Old 2009-02-22, 21:18   Link #828
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Um... wasn't the back engines jettisoned from the Archangel deliberately, in an attempt to goad the Minerva into thinking it had destroyed the Archangel?
One of them. The other one was heavily damaged, the rear wings were destroyed, much of the ship flooded, etc.
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Old 2009-02-22, 21:20   Link #829
justavisitor
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sry brightman, I completely forgot Katz in Zeta....
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Old 2009-02-22, 21:21   Link #830
Rising Dragon
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Originally Posted by brightman View Post
One of them. The other one was heavily damaged, the rear wings were destroyed, etc.
Okay. I don't remember, so I'll need to go rewatch that episode.

*off to find DVD*
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Old 2009-02-22, 21:44   Link #831
Demongod86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brightman View Post
Spoiler for Zeta spoiler:



Yes they did. Watch Ep 35 again, they lost the entire back section.


Once again we're NOT talking about mobile suits... Orb had like 8 ships or something silly like that fighting against the entire ZAFT space force, and came out without losing anybody important.
Ohhh...you're talking about the fleet battle.

Orb had 3 ships. The original TSA.

The rest of it was feddie fodder...which DID suffer some massive losses from Neo-genesis I believe.

As for AA in GSD 35...just rewatched part of the dub (not bad actually aside from the fact that Murrue sounds WAY too old). Yeah, AA got its wings hurt, and had a flooding in some parts. The engine it detached as a decoy.

It was hardly in any form of it'll-take-forever to repair issue. Time? Yes. But then again, ZAFT in the meantime engaged Heaven's Base and took a while to head to Orb, at which point the AA wasn't 100% yet.
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Old 2009-02-22, 23:59   Link #832
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By placing greater emphasis on Shinn himself rather than split time amongst three protagonists. The reason why Shinn was "unlikeable" early on was because they mostly focused on his relationship with Athrun, which was by no means a lovey-dovey one (though it got much better with time--but was destroyed again by the time the Stellar arc hit). More time spent characterizing Shinn and showing his interactions with fellow crew members that he was friendly with would have done wonders.
I agree that the Shinn-Athrun relationship was nowhere nearly as effective as the creators hoped, but that probably has more to do with the weakness of the entire Athrun joining ZAFT again plot. At that point in time, they weren't trying to make Shinn more accessible, so there's not that much that can be done there. If anything, I think that the creators should have been a lot less ambitious with his character, and made him a lot less prickly to begin with. Then again, that falls into the category of what-ifs, and there are a lot of what-ifs that could have improved Destiny.

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The goodie little two shoes brigade was incredibly annoying, and their character shields made them unlikeable. They were all invincible. Not a single character from GS died in GSD. Only new GSD chars died. Kira, Asuran, and everyone on the Archangel were invincible. You couldn't suspend your disbelief. Someone once made a ranking of grunt units. The giant gundams essentially became grunt units and even the super weapons were just fodder for the Kira brigade. I couldn't suspend my disbelief. It was just too stupid.
I can see the reasoning about not liking the characters, but the idea that not having certain characters die make a show worse seems to be relatively arbitrary. Then again, I guess we all have our unique hangups.
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Old 2009-02-23, 00:04   Link #833
Demongod86
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What's interesting, however, is that the GS crew didn't "gruntify" anyone who wasn't already a grunt. In fact, Kira was having some trouble with said grunts in ep 39 until he got SF.

It was the GSD crew, in fact, that gruntified the destroys.

And of course, the GS crew then gruntified the GSD crew--which apparently leads people to believe that they also gruntified the destroys, when Kira only faced one.
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Old 2009-02-23, 01:02   Link #834
Dark Wing
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Reason for my dislike of GSD

1. The unfair treatment of the new cast so the old cast could steal the show.

2. The reusing and re-reusing of animation footage

3. Battle were uninteresting (beamspam! beamspam! beamspam!)

other then that everything was descent.
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Old 2009-02-23, 06:26   Link #835
coba
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Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
What's interesting, however, is that the GS crew didn't "gruntify" anyone who wasn't already a grunt. In fact, Kira was having some trouble with said grunts in ep 39 until he got SF.

It was the GSD crew, in fact, that gruntified the destroys.

And of course, the GS crew then gruntified the GSD crew--which apparently leads people to believe that they also gruntified the destroys, when Kira only faced one.

Ehmmmm...I think in GSD, Kira & the AA are practically a god in ep 12-28 and 39-end, Kira is only a "human" in between. Remember, in the early episode he gruntified a lot of good pilot: Auel in ep 23 (take only one shoot to disable the submerged Abyss, another one or two second in disabling both Heine (ZAFT red pilot, veteran of the first war) and Stellar, taking care of Sting (whom even athrun had difficulties in dealing with), and Athrun himself.

Lol, the ultimate proof on how the battle in GSD is always one sided: 25 Goufs + Zaku (with some of them are red coat pilots) in less than 3-5 minutes. It is really unbeliavable even when you have a huge disadvantage in the technology. For comparison, 00 Raiser take more time to take care 10 GN-XIII even though it has a hax in it.
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Old 2009-02-23, 08:38   Link #836
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It is really unbeliavable even when you have a huge disadvantage in the technology. For comparison, 00 Raiser take more time to take care 10 GN-XIII even though it has a hax in it.
Setsuna sucks as a pilot
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Old 2009-02-23, 08:50   Link #837
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Setsuna sucks as a pilot
At least he's not as boring as Kira.
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Old 2009-02-24, 19:35   Link #838
Dark Wing
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Setsuna sucks as a pilot
I don't think so it's just that unlike in other series the enemies in 00 just don't roll over and die they at least fight back.
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Old 2009-02-24, 19:54   Link #839
Rising Dragon
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Setsuna's managed to stomp Ali Al-Saachez in battle, even while wounded. Therefore, he is far from a bad pilot.
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Old 2009-02-24, 20:06   Link #840
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Oh you mean in CE where the grunts Can't Evade.
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