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Old 2009-02-27, 13:33   Link #901
germanturkey
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yeah. i don't know if Orb signed the treaty, since it would seem that only the Alliance and ZAFT signed it. and it doesn't even matter, since you can hardly say that Kira is part of Orb when he uses Freedom again. he's basically a private citizen who fights for his own beliefs.

I have no problems bringing Kira and Freedom back. I greatly like Kira and Freedom is one of the best MS designs in recent years.
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Old 2009-02-27, 15:07   Link #902
Sides
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The fall of the Seed series was caused by the director giving in to fans and bandai's demands. Basically GSD is a good example how a series can fail if the director has no backbone.
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Old 2009-02-27, 15:17   Link #903
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Originally Posted by sirsearka
And I still argue that he did more good by keeping it than he'd do by destroying it. And still, I'd have nothing against him really destroying the thing. It's just ultimately it turned out he and Lacus are predictable people instead of "blindly idealistic". Anyways, in both case, I personally have no complaints against their intentions and decisions.
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Lol, I am not saying that Kira and co are pure evil. It is just that if you think it carefully, it is kinda ironic that they are the one who broke the treaty by preserving Freedom. They really should destroy the Freedom in the first place and save any other modern MS (e.g. Murasame, etc).


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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Correction: treaties are in place for the treaty signatories to follow. Everyone else is exempt from its stipulations. For now, it is still unclear whether Orb was a signatory to the ban on deploying Neutron Jammer Cancelers in the first place. Moreover, weapons limitation treaties aren't the kind of moral absolutes that you think they are. The idea behind them is that abiding by the stipulations, tensions will ease between countries in those specific areas, and reduce the likelihood of a war. Once a war breaks out, the treaty itself becomes void.

You're free to dislike Destiny for other reasons, but your reasoning here is in error.

Ehmmm.......if you read the whole traty carefully, the Orb is part of it. The treaty includes on how the Otb receives their EA occupied region back. Like I said, that treaty is between the aerth as whole (all the nations in earth) and the Plant.

BTW, aside from delpoying the Freedom, none of you guys care to reply on the fact that the first clause in the treaty which is the use of the NJC in MS has been broken with the existence of the Freedom itself. This is what I consider as the "guilty" action of Kira and co. considering that they clearly broke the treaty by preserving Freedom way before the war broke down.

p.s.: I don't dislike the GSD. I just want to point out this fact since it just flashed out on my mind. for some reason.


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Kira is part of Orb when he uses Freedom again. he's basically a private citizen who fights for his own beliefs.
Unfortunately, they all wear Orb uniform and clearly takes resident in Orb. It is ridiculous to think that they are immune to the treaty just beacuse they want to fight for their own belief (isn't that similar to the justification of the terrorist who help to create the 911 ?)
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Old 2009-02-27, 15:24   Link #904
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If they are not part of Orb... I find it more weird they have to go out intervening conflicts. In the movie, it seems they are doing it for Orb, as being part of it.
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Old 2009-02-27, 17:36   Link #905
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post

Correction: treaties are in place for the treaty signatories to follow. Everyone else is exempt from its stipulations. For now, it is still unclear whether Orb was a signatory to the ban on deploying Neutron Jammer Cancelers in the first place. Moreover, weapons limitation treaties aren't the kind of moral absolutes that you think they are. The idea behind them is that abiding by the stipulations, tensions will ease between countries in those specific areas, and reduce the likelihood of a war. Once a war breaks out, the treaty itself becomes void.
.
In other words, the Clyne Faction is exempt from doing the same $hit Dully’s side did…I-J and S-F didn’t run on corn-syrup now did they? Neither did the hidden original Freedom that was secured quite stealthily right in Orb territory…I think it’s clear that neither Orb or the defunct PLANT leadership (That eventually was just handed back to Lacus), didn’t give a damn about no treaties…

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i wish gundam fans would ask that why gundam seed's sequel is called 'gundam seed DESTINY' as the DESTINY gundam was the 'bad guy' of the show!? man,it should be called gundam seed JUSTICE!!
As far as Kira’s side is concerned it shoulda been Gundam SEED JUST-US!!!
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Old 2009-02-27, 17:46   Link #906
Sir Dearka
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Originally Posted by coba View Post
Lol, I am not saying that Kira and co are pure evil. It is just that if you think it carefully, it is kinda ironic that they are the one who broke the treaty by preserving Freedom. They really should destroy the Freedom in the first place and save any other modern MS (e.g. Murasame, etc).
Well, clearly, they were just cautious. I see nothing wrong with that. The fact that I am a viewer that actually has insight into many things also does not help in me perceiving it as ridiculous a deed. Still, it is always a matter of perspective, a different point of view. Ok, maybe they violated the treaty along with Dullindal and others. Still, their intentions and results are fairy tale pure in comparison.

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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
In other words, the Clyne Faction is exempt from doing the same $hit Dully’s side did…I-J and S-F didn’t run on corn-syrup now did they? Neither did the hidden original Freedom that was secured quite stealthily right in Orb territory…I think it’s clear that neither Orb or the defunct PLANT leadership (That eventually was just handed back to Lacus), didn’t give a damn about no treaties…
As far as Kira’s side is concerned it shoulda been Gundam SEED JUST-US!!!
yes, maybe they did not give a sh*t about the treaty. The only things they cared about are people's lives. If this is just-us attitude to you then wow.. you sure hate kind people Whether being kind and sometimes silly/wrong at the same time is impossible is another matter.
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Old 2009-02-27, 17:47   Link #907
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Uh, before you guys go any further about bashing the Infinite Justice and Strike Freedom because of the treaty... keep in mind that both of those mobile suits had the same kind of power reactor as the Destiny and the Legend.
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Old 2009-02-27, 17:50   Link #908
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ord becomes the most powerful government by the end of gsd, i was like wtf

p.s. is it me or cagalli resemble hilliary clinton
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Old 2009-02-27, 18:02   Link #909
4Tran
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Originally Posted by gundam rider View Post
i wish gundam fans would ask that why gundam seed's sequel is called 'gundam seed DESTINY' as the DESTINY gundam was the 'bad guy' of the show!? man,it should be called gundam seed JUSTICE!!
There are a few different factors in play here. The first is that Shinn had always been envisioned as the main character of Destiny; hence the name of the show. But the name "Destiny" also plays into the name of the Destiny Plan (which is really more what the show was about) and in a play on words in the thematic sense of "Destiny vs. Freedom". Finally, there isn't a set rule that the name of a Gundam show had to be the protagonist's Gundam.

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Originally Posted by germanturkey View Post
yeah. i don't know if Orb signed the treaty, since it would seem that only the Alliance and ZAFT signed it. and it doesn't even matter, since you can hardly say that Kira is part of Orb when he uses Freedom again. he's basically a private citizen who fights for his own beliefs.
Archangel was run under the auspices of acting with the authority of the head of state of Orb, so they shouldn't be interpreted as private citizens at all, regardless of whether Archangel was a formally commissioned Orb vessel. Moreover, they operated with Orb uniforms, and under Orb military protocols, so there shouldn't be any mistake about their status.

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Originally Posted by coba View Post
Ehmmm.......if you read the whole traty carefully, the Orb is part of it. The treaty includes on how the Otb receives their EA occupied region back. Like I said, that treaty is between the aerth as whole (all the nations in earth) and the Plant.
Not really. There are a few different clauses and agreements to the peace treaty, and a party to one doesn't have to be a party to all of them. From the description of the arms limitation portion, it would seem as if EA and PLANT were the sole signatories.

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Originally Posted by coba View Post
BTW, aside from delpoying the Freedom, none of you guys care to reply on the fact that the first clause in the treaty which is the use of the NJC in MS has been broken with the existence of the Freedom itself. This is what I consider as the "guilty" action of Kira and co. considering that they clearly broke the treaty by preserving Freedom way before the war broke down.
It would only be a treaty violation if the stipulation was that any vehicle in violation had to be scrapped. Usually in such agreements, the provisions only state that no such vehicles/weapons are allowed to be built.

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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
In other words, the Clyne Faction is exempt from doing the same $hit Dully’s side did…I-J and S-F didn’t run on corn-syrup now did they? Neither did the hidden original Freedom that was secured quite stealthily right in Orb territory…I think it’s clear that neither Orb or the defunct PLANT leadership (That eventually was just handed back to Lacus), didn’t give a damn about no treaties…
More accurately, nobody gave a damn about the treaty because they all thought that another war was inevitable. The only character with any power who thought otherwise was Cagalli; and everyone thought that she was just being naive.

Oh, and by the way, apparently Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice were stolen from Durandal, so he gets the blame if you want to complain about that one.

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ord becomes the most powerful government by the end of gsd, i was like wtf
Orb is the most powerful of the Earth nations, but that's more because of the collapse of the EA than anything else. PLANT is still much more powerful overall, and it'll stay that way unless Cagalli builds up a strong coalition.

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p.s. is it me or cagalli resemble hilliary clinton
There's no real similarity aside from the fact that they're both female and blond.
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Old 2009-02-27, 18:07   Link #910
germanturkey
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fair enough. AA did operate under orb, but i think thats only because they had Cagalli aboard for it. plus it would be too easy to make them not associated with anyone, because without AA, Orb would have been toast anyways.

by strongest government, do you mean by military might? because i would hardly say that Cagalli is a good leader, and ZAFT has Lacus in charge, which i would take over Cagalli in charge any day. then in terms of military, ZAFT has basically every ace except for Athrun and maybe Mwu, i don't remember seeing him at the end of destiny plus in military dress.
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Old 2009-02-27, 18:28   Link #911
wingdarkness
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yes, maybe they did not give a sh*t about the treaty. The only things they cared about are people's lives. If this is just-us attitude to you then wow.. you sure hate kind people Whether being kind and sometimes silly/wrong at the same time is impossible is another matter.
This implies that you think Dully was soopa-evil (Which the show utterly failed at showing in a coherent way)...Dullindal made a speech based on a philosophy for stopping all wars, and asked if the human race was willing to follow...You can't drop a giant syringe on the countless billions that make-up humanity...The human race was going to have to choose (like an election)...But with the premise of a group of scooby-doo mystery gang-members UNILATERALLY pwning him every time, he knew the only way he could go about applying this PLAN (a plan, not a mandate) was to get them outta the way...In the end he was completely wrong for sacrificing his own troops in the name of eternal peace, but 1 killer tomato and 1 American Idol contestant had the magical power of stopping everything he did or could ever do...So he went mad in the end, but the plan itself COULD NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER be implemented unless the people sided with him... And the shocker is that many people seemed to atleast be considering it...Get a blood test, get a job ...Obama would kill for that plan about now in our economic condition...

So yeah they saved an island full of whiners (Orb) at the expense of perhaps stopping war forever by just giving people jobs (IF THAT's WHAT THEY WANTED)...Dully was gonna save far more lives in the end...
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Old 2009-02-27, 18:57   Link #912
kk2extreme
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Orb is the most powerful of the Earth nations, but that's more because of the collapse of the EA than anything else. PLANT is still much more powerful overall, and it'll stay that way unless Cagalli builds up a strong coalition.
dont forget who kick PLANT's butt at the end

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There's no real similarity aside from the fact that they're both female and blond.
how about arthrun being bill clinton where both of their partners cheats
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Old 2009-02-27, 19:00   Link #913
4Tran
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fair enough. AA did operate under orb, but i think thats only because they had Cagalli aboard for it. plus it would be too easy to make them not associated with anyone, because without AA, Orb would have been toast anyways.
Cagalli's presence legitimizes Archangel's actions, but the crew had already willingly donned Orb uniforms, so I'm pretty sure that they would have acted in what they thought was in Orb's interests regardless. For the most part though, the crew's personal interests and Orb's interest coincided, so it's a bit of a moot point.

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by strongest government, do you mean by military might? because i would hardly say that Cagalli is a good leader, and ZAFT has Lacus in charge, which i would take over Cagalli in charge any day.
While Cagalli's actions in the early parts of Destiny were shaky, she had improved greatly by the end. While I think that Lacus would make for a better leader (there really aren't a whole lot of great political leaders in the Gundam franchise to begin with), she also has no experience at governing whatsoever (which puts her behind Cagalli).

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Originally Posted by germanturkey View Post
then in terms of military, ZAFT has basically every ace except for Athrun and maybe Mwu, i don't remember seeing him at the end of destiny plus in military dress.
This isn't a very good criterion because not all of the best pilots necessarily show up. For example, the pilot with the highest number of kills in Mobile Suit Gundam was never in the TV show - the presumption being that there's a lot that happens off-screen.

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So yeah they saved an island full of whiners (Orb) at the expense of perhaps stopping war forever by just giving people jobs (IF THAT's WHAT THEY WANTED)...Dully was gonna save far more lives in the end...
This is theoretically true of a lot of "Master Plans", but that doesn't mean that they will work or that they are a good idea.
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Old 2009-02-27, 19:04   Link #914
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Well, clearly, they were just cautious. I see nothing wrong with that. The fact that I am a viewer that actually has insight into many things also does not help in me perceiving it as ridiculous a deed. Still, it is always a matter of perspective, a different point of view. Ok, maybe they violated the treaty along with Dullindal and others. Still, their intentions and results are fairy tale pure in comparison.

The problem with this justification is that it allows people to do anything as long as their purpose is deemed "good" (i.e. the end justifying the mean). Let's just take the most extreme example: an assasin A is planning to kill an inncoent person B & C. Using this justification, it means that if you kill A, then you won't be charged a murder ?

That's why I said that regardless of whatever the reason is, both Kira & co. and Djibril clearly violate the treaty. It is a simple as that: for instance, if you put Djibril in a prison for 5 years for violating the treaty, then Kira & co will have to face similar ocnsequence. Of course since Djibril also did other bunch of "evil" stuffs, then he will serve the time longer.

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Not really. There are a few different clauses and agreements to the peace treaty, and a party to one doesn't have to be a party to all of them. From the description of the arms limitation portion, it would seem as if EA and PLANT were the sole signatories.
Unfortunately, the Junius treaty was signed in the Nairobi Peace Conference which basically "the peace negotiations that officially conclude the first war between Earth and the PLANTs" (Gundam official). It is clearly said earth, not "Earth Federation".

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It would only be a treaty violation if the stipulation was that any vehicle in violation had to be scrapped. Usually in such agreements, the provisions only state that no such vehicles/weapons are allowed to be built.
The treaty clearly states that "The Junius Treaty prohibits the use of N-Jammer Cancelers in mobile suits and military weapons, and all use of Mirage Colloid is banned outright." This is the general treaty and of course there is additional stipulation that because of this clause, "both sides are prohibited from developing or deploying mobile suits equipped with nuclear engines or Mirage Colloid stealth systems"

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More accurately, nobody gave a damn about the treaty because they all thought that another war was inevitable.
Well once again you assume everyone. The lady Canaver (the replacement of Patrick Zala) did not think so and so does cagalli.
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Old 2009-02-27, 19:50   Link #915
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The fall of the Seed series was caused by the director giving in to fans and bandai's demands. Basically GSD is a good example how a series can fail if the director has no backbone.
the fans geez hello 2004 + gsd = 25yrs tribute to gundam!!!

besides where is the honor & yet it was to give fans maybe some thanks for those 25yrs in 04 by giving what the fans want. (i'm watching ya all if ya do it again on gundam 30)
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Old 2009-02-27, 19:53   Link #916
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Originally Posted by kk2extreme View Post
dont forget who kick PLANT's butt at the end
Well, Lacus was acting as the fleet commander, and contributed roughly half the troops, so I'd say that she played a bigger role than Orb and Cagalli did.

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The problem with this justification is that it allows people to do anything as long as their purpose is deemed "good" (i.e. the end justifying the mean). Let's just take the most extreme example: an assasin A is planning to kill an inncoent person B & C. Using this justification, it means that if you kill A, then you won't be charged a murder ?
I have to agree with you here slightly. The presence of a threat isn't justification for violating a treaty. However, it's also important to also examing the severity of a breach and what it represents before one casts moral judgements. Especially since, in the greater scheme of things, a violation of an arms limitation treaty is a very small sin.

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That's why I said that regardless of whatever the reason is, both Kira & co. and Djibril clearly violate the treaty. It is a simple as that: for instance, if you put Djibril in a prison for 5 years for violating the treaty, then Kira & co will have to face similar ocnsequence. Of course since Djibril also did other bunch of "evil" stuffs, then he will serve the time longer.
It doesn't work that way - People don't get charged for breaking arms limitation treaties in the first place.

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Unfortunately, the Junius treaty was signed in the Nairobi Peace Conference which basically "the peace negotiations that officially conclude the first war between Earth and the PLANTs" (Gundam official). It is clearly said earth, not "Earth Federation".

It is your own assumption. The treaty clearly states that "The Junius Treaty prohibits the use of N-Jammer Cancelers in mobile suits and military weapons, and all use of Mirage Colloid is banned outright." This is the general treaty and of course there is additional stipulation that because of this clause, "both sides are prohibited from developing or deploying mobile suits equipped with nuclear engines or Mirage Colloid stealth systems"
The word "both" would strongly imply that there were only two signatories.

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Well once again you assume everyone. The lady Canaver (the replacement of Patrick Zala) did not think so and so does cagalli.
It's not an assumption; it's a general observation - large-scale militaries and brand-new military infrastructure and hardware don't exactly build themselves. Eileen Canaver left office long before the start of Destiny, and we don't know what her opinions were on the likelihood of the peace holding. It doesn't really matter either, since to think that this likelihood was high would make her as naive as Cagalli anyways.
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Old 2009-02-27, 21:22   Link #917
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This is theoretically true of a lot of "Master Plans", but that doesn't mean that they will work or that they are a good idea.
Funny you say this, which means Freedom-slashing this master-plan is neither an idea that would ultimately work or that Lacus' clan doing this is indeed a good idea...And that's why GSD failed, because in the end the "good guys" didn't have 1 good idea...Dully's idea (for however flawed it was), was a choice people could have made...It was atleast an idea to end war, but due to terrible plotting and characterization he's a madman who flipped-out just because he wanted to get people a job, LMAO...With the premise of such an unstopple 1% of the world (Orb) against him, and 2 pilots and 1 karaoke singer having the ability to destroy entire universes, he went batty in the end...Who could blame him?
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Old 2009-02-27, 23:12   Link #918
coba
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I have to agree with you here slightly. The presence of a threat isn't justification for violating a treaty. However, it's also important to also examing the severity of a breach and what it represents before one casts moral judgements. Especially since, in the greater scheme of things, a violation of an arms limitation treaty is a very small sin.

It doesn't work that way - People don't get charged for breaking arms limitation treaties in the first place.
That does not work that way. The treaty was there to prevent any large-scale war to begin again. Everytime one side starts to break it, the war will soon start again. That's the nature of human being: if someone is allowed to break something, others will start to think "that guy does not follow it, why should I ?"
Take Somalia as an example, they have an on-going civil war for almost a decade right now. The war never stop because everytime, someone will break the treaty/negotiation. It is not small matter: a sin is still a sin no matter how small it is. If everytime the idea of " the end justify a mean" is used, the world will always be in chaos.

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The word "both" would strongly imply that there were only two signatories.
Sure except that one side is Plany (outer space colony) while the other is the earth (or more accurately all nations on earth).

Take an example in the WWI treaty where sometimes you only have two side (allied and axis) but it involves a lot of country.

Quote:
It's not an assumption; it's a general observation - large-scale militaries and brand-new military infrastructure and hardware don't exactly build themselves. Eileen Canaver left office long before the start of Destiny, and we don't know what her opinions were on the likelihood of the peace holding. It doesn't really matter either, since to think that this likelihood was high would make her as naive as Cagalli anyways
Well it is clearly said that each country can build any new militaries as long as it follows the treaty. After all, a country need military to protect their region. The problem that we are talking about here is a specific case: Kira & co. re-build and preserve the Freedom. . The treaty clearly ban the use of NJC in the MS since NJC allows the possibility of using nuclear in the war. Note that never once I criticize Kira & co preserve the AA. That's because they didn't violate anythinh with it.
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Old 2009-02-28, 01:09   Link #919
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Funny you say this, which means Freedom-slashing this master-plan is neither an idea that would ultimately work or that Lacus' clan doing this is indeed a good idea...
Not quite. Lacus' plan wasn't a masterplan of any kind. It was mostly amounted to just "stop Durandal and remove him from power". As such, it's not supposed to accomplish huge things aside from trying to buy enough time to allow for further peace initiatives. And you know what, that's usually the kind of realistic and straightforward solution that actually gets things done.

Would it necessarily suceed though? Lacus herself seems to be both optimistic and cautious on that one, so I wouldn't call it just yet. There's certainly a lot of potential for further violence, and all the parties seem to be aware of this.

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And that's why GSD failed, because in the end the "good guys" didn't have 1 good idea...Dully's idea (for however flawed it was), was a choice people could have made...It was atleast an idea to end war, but due to terrible plotting and characterization he's a madman who flipped-out just because he wanted to get people a job, LMAO...
That's silly. A flawed "Master Plan" that has no chance of doing much except for causing all sorts of unnecessary grief is not at all better than one that's both more limited in scope and more realistic. A question like "why do people war upon one another" isn't going to get solved overnight, and I can't help but feel that only the naive can believe that there's some sort of magical solution for it.

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With the premise of such an unstopple 1% of the world (Orb) against him, and 2 pilots and 1 karaoke singer having the ability to destroy entire universes, he went batty in the end...Who could blame him?
Hardly that. Durandal also went in knowing that many of his best troops were more loyal to Lacus than to himself. It's a serious handicap that limited his options throughout Destiny.

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That does not work that way. The treaty was there to prevent any large-scale war to begin again. Everytime one side starts to break it, the war will soon start again. That's the nature of human being: if someone is allowed to break something, others will start to think "that guy does not follow it, why should I ?"
Except that everyone was breaking the spirit of the treaty before the ink of the signatures even dried. If you are so adamant that breaking an arms limitation treaty is such a serious offense, can you think of anyone being severely punished for doing so (not including other related activities)?

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Originally Posted by coba View Post
Take Somalia as an example, they have an on-going civil war for almost a decade right now. The war never stop because everytime, someone will break the treaty/negotiation. It is not small matter: a sin is still a sin no matter how small it is. If everytime the idea of " the end justify a mean" is used, the world will always be in chaos.
You're talking about military escalation; arms limitation is a very different concept.

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Sure except that one side is Plany (outer space colony) while the other is the earth (or more accurately all nations on earth).
Why would you lump Orb in with the EA? Is it because they were conquered by the latter? Orb was pointedly not allied with either the EA or PLANT, so they would have negotiated under their own auspices.

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Originally Posted by coba View Post
Take an example in the WWI treaty where sometimes you only have two side (allied and axis) but it involves a lot of country.
Do you mean the Treaty of Versailles where Russia negotiated a separate treaty with Germany and they repudiated the treaty stipulations? Or China, which didn't sign because they were outraged by the terms? Or how about the World War II treaties where the Allies negotiated separately to the degree that the Soviet Union/Russia doesn't have a peace treaty with Japan to this day?

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Originally Posted by coba View Post
Well it is clearly said that each country can build any new militaries as long as it follows the treaty. After all, a country need military to protect their region. The problem that we are talking about here is a specific case: Kira & co. re-build and preserve the Freedom. . The treaty clearly ban the use of NJC in the MS since NJC allows the possibility of using nuclear in the war. Note that never once I criticize Kira & co preserve the AA. That's because they didn't violate anythinh with it.
That's not quite how arms limitations work. Their point isn't really to prevent a particular weapon from being deployed - this is pointless because a nation will always adopt the most potent weapons that it feels it needs in time of war. Instead, the idea is to reduce the likelihood of an arms race, so that the signatories can concentrate on either other areas of their economy or military. Theoretically, a reduced arms race will also lessen the likelihood of a war breaking out.

There aren't any details about what the Junius Treaty was supposed to do, but it probably went something like this. If neither party developed NJC-equipped warheads, then both could ease off on the amount of anti-nuclear defenses, which in turn meant that neither side had to build as many nuclear weapons to deal with those defenses, and so on. The same thing goes for Mirage Colloid weapons and countermeasures. This was an absolute farce because the first thing every party did, even the isolationist Orb, was to arm to the teeth beyond even the Cosmic Era 71 levels. And of course, we saw stuff like the Nuclear Stampeder deployed long before Freedom was pulled out of mothballs.
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Old 2009-02-28, 01:57   Link #920
coba
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Except that everyone was breaking the spirit of the treaty before the ink of the signatures even dried. If you are so adamant that breaking an arms limitation treaty is such a serious offense, can you think of anyone being severely punished for doing so (not including other related activities)?
Dude, the only consequence of breaking of that kind of treaty is either you have a cold war situation or you get a war outbreak right away (something which is kinda ironic considering how Lacus' preaching abour peace). Sure as long as your country does not involve in the war, you probably could care less. But most war will cause civilian casualties.

What I am talking about is not whether you will get punished or not. Heck, you can steal/shoplift in the supermarket and you will not get punished as long as nobody knows. But it still doesn't make you escape the fact that you already sin

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You're talking about military escalation; arms limitation is a very different concept.
Your argument clearly stated that it is okay for Kira & co to break up the treaty necause the end justify the means. That's what happen iin the Somalia. Every faction in Somalia thinks that the end justify the mean and it causes everyone not to follow the law/rule/etc. If everyone starts to think that it is okay to break the laws/rule/treaty because it is for a good purpose, then soon everyone will not follow the rule anymore.

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Why would you lump Orb in with the EA? Is it because they were conquered by the latter? Orb was pointedly not allied with either the EA or PLANT, so they would have negotiated under their own auspices.
It is clearly mentioned that the the Nairobi Peace Conference which basically "the peace negotiations that officially conclude the first war between Earth and the PLANTs" (Gundam official). . If it is only between Earth Federation and Plant, it will say Eart Federation - not earth. Also, if Orb has a separate negotiation, there will be no point for the EF to put that they will have to return the Orb's region in the treaty (what is the advanatge of ZAFT if EF return the land to Orb ? none). Just think about it, the treaty is to promote peace between earth and space colony. I bet you if only few earth countries signed the treaty to prevent the use of nuclear weapon, Plant will not sign it considering that they are really vulnerable against nuclear attack.

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Do you mean the Treaty of Versailles where Russia negotiated a separate treaty with Germany and they repudiated the treaty stipulations? Or China, which didn't sign because they were outraged by the terms? Or how about the World War II treaties where the Allies negotiated separately to the degree that the Soviet Union/Russia doesn't have a peace treaty with Japan to this day?
I failed to see your point in putting all this examples. My initial point is that sometimes the treaty use overall term that represents several nations.

The point is that everytime the treaty is broken, it likely results in either all out war or diplomatic tension or better yet cold war. Just take an example the current Nuclear treaty in the real world and how difficult it is when NATO declares the treaty is invalid when you have general war or when India refused to sign the treaty in Asia region. That's why our world is always in conflict over and over again.


Quote:
That's not quite how arms limitations work. Their point isn't really to prevent a particular weapon from being deployed - this is pointless because a nation will always adopt the most potent weapons that it feels it needs in time of war. Instead, the idea is to reduce the likelihood of an arms race, so that the signatories can concentrate on either other areas of their economy or military. Theoretically, a reduced arms race will also lessen the likelihood of a war breaking out.

There aren't any details about what the Junius Treaty was supposed to do, but it probably went something like this. If neither party developed NJC-equipped warheads, then both could ease off on the amount of anti-nuclear defenses, which in turn meant that neither side had to build as many nuclear weapons to deal with those defenses, and so on. The same thing goes for Mirage Colloid weapons and countermeasures. This was an absolute farce because the first thing every party did, even the isolationist Orb, was to arm to the teeth beyond even the Cosmic Era 71 levels. And of course, we saw stuff like the Nuclear Stampeder deployed long before Freedom was pulled out of mothballs
Dude, the Junius treaty clearly states that you are not suppose to use NJC in the MS .
It can't be clearer than that, no matter how you try to avoid this point. This steps is basically for the nuclear weapon disarmament. It is quite similar with the real world version where onbe of the mainsteps is to "create someday the conditions for a halt to the production of nuclear weapons, and treaty on general and complete disarmament that liquidates, in particular, nuclear weapons and their delivery vehicles from national arsenals" (wikipedia).

Once more, you are mostly arguing the point of deploying the Freedom. However, the existence of the Freedom itself is the most controversial issue down here due to the use of NTC in the MS.

Like I said before, I don't mind if Kira and co for some reason want to have their own army. However, they should destroy the Freedom after the GS since its existence means that they already break the Junius treaty (which BTW is meant to preserve the overall peace ). Kira and co. can achieve the same pupose if for instance Kira decided to get the Murasame (or insert any other battery-powered MS) instead.
Hence, in that essence, Kira and co. is not better than Djibril since they are among the first who broke the treaty regardless whether other sides knew or not.

p.s: This is the supporting argument on how the "good side" in GSD is not that different from other. Kira and co. preach about peace and now you have a "peace" treaty after the war and congratulation....they are the one who broke it right away. If they are really serious about preserving peace, they really ought to think about some other method instead of rebuilding the Freedom again.

Last edited by coba; 2009-02-28 at 02:25.
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