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Old 2009-03-03, 09:39   Link #961
winter45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Dearka View Post
Well, the concept of "right" and "wrong" is pretty relative as we may see. I think you already noticed why I consider Kira and co's side the "right side". As the answer is simple: I have nothing against "guerilla/terrorism/rebeliant (whatever whichever side calls it)" in general. What I happen to be interested in is the intentions, not the result. Maybe that's what differs me from other's opinions. "Hell is paved with good intentions?" I don't think so. To me, the people who deserve to go to hell are those with no conscience.
Ouch man..... I had to put my emotions and conscionce in check when i pulled the trigger. Its not normal to kill a man but sometimes we do have to make alot of mental and physical sacrifices. When i came back home from Afganistan 4 years ago i was a changed man from the horrors i went thru.

Not to give u a guilty trip but i hope u dont label soldiers following the big plan to go to hell due to their own lack of conscience just to go home alive.

Some of us will suffer nightmares for the rest of their lives and this is considered a nice tradeoff for the sins we have committed.

Are we human? yes
Do we want to win? yes
Do we want to go home? yes
Will we do *anything* to stay alive? DEFINATLY YES!!!!

Last edited by winter45; 2009-03-03 at 09:49. Reason: added more
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Old 2009-03-03, 09:40   Link #962
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Politicians with Deathstars is one thing. Politicians with Deathstars in opposite camps is another matter altogether.

@winter45: I hope my post above hit the mark. As a Singaporean, I do get the chance to play at soldiering. Protect your mind. It's often the first thing to go in war.
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Old 2009-03-03, 09:45   Link #963
Sir Dearka
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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
Ouch man..... I had to put my emotions and conscionce in check when i pulled the trigger. Its not normal to kill a man but sometimes we do have to make alot of mental and physical sacrifices. When i came back home from Afganistan 4 years ago i was a changed man from the horrors i went thru.

Not to give u a guilty trip but i hope u dont label soldiers following the big plan to go to hell due to their own lack of conscience just to go home alive.
I think surpressing one's conscience to execute the orders is not as bad as not having the conscience at all thus readily sacrificing human life without even saying "ouch". But hell, I am a civilian, what do I know about "true war", huh?
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Old 2009-03-03, 09:49   Link #964
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As the ancient Sun Zi said, "War is an important state affair, a matter of life and death, and of survival. It cannot be taken lightly."
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Old 2009-03-03, 10:00   Link #965
winter45
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Originally Posted by Sir Dearka View Post
I think surpressing one's conscience to execute the orders is not as bad as not having the conscience at all thus readily sacrificing human life without even saying "ouch". But hell, I am a civilian, what do I know about "true war", huh?
Sir dirka once u go down that path it gets easier and easier to remove your conscience... After a while u have little to none conscience and pulling the trigger at soldier on the run or soldier who wishes to surrender your guilt and remorse diminshes and your mentality dramaticly changes.

These are the same people who gets promoted with more equipment and resourses and menpower to complete the given objectives. Once you have these people with little to none conscience making decisions battlefield life becomes extremely scarry for those who have not adapted or tasted warfare.

But this is not restricted just to soldiers, politicions can also follow this path.

But atm i think we are getting off topic so ill stop now before a mod comes in.

@Yez its nice to hear another fellow militant here in the forums.
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Old 2009-03-03, 10:03   Link #966
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except the name of the general is sun tzu?
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Old 2009-03-03, 10:03   Link #967
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Well, playing soldier isn't quite the same as being one.

In other news, I am more than disgusted when the producers gave Kira the white coat at the end of the movies. Give him the red. He more than deserves it. But, he doesn't deserve the white. If he is able to lead a team, I have not seen it.

"Tzu" is another way of saying "Zi". Zi is Hanyu Pinyin. Anyway, it means "Mr." in ancient Chinese. His name, as recorded, is Wu. However, since Sun Wu written in English can be confused with the state during the Three Kingdoms Era, "Zi" is more often used.
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Old 2009-03-03, 10:04   Link #968
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except the name of the general is sun tzu?
Same thing if pronounced
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Old 2009-03-03, 10:07   Link #969
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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
just curiose do you have any info on this.. i would really love to read it up.. Just conflict of info i have received. in regards the director intended for shinn to be like this vs that due to late handings in scripts everything is done last minute work and anything goes just to get production moving with little thought as a result shinn was butchered.

Just wish for a clarifiacation or a statement to clarify this.
I don't have anything particularly concrete, but I read somewhere that Fukuda's initial image was of Shinn losing and crying in Lunamaria's arms. And that this image was what they based the entire show on. I don't know how credible this is, but it has a ring of truth to it, and if they had something else in mind, then it seems likely that Destiny would have been a very different show.

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*Atm find it rather difficult to beleive. But as usal politicians from time to time makes dicks of themselves but are no way stupid when it comes to securing their positions. (except election days) Understandible actors and celebrities have made their way to office but deffinatly ive never seen anyone as young as lacus running a nation, (Royalty doesnt count in this tho)
While elections tend to favor older, more "respectable" candidates, Lacus never got her power because of elections. There's nothing saying that young people can't do great things for their country. In fact, a fair number of history's greatest leaders gained the reins of power very early in their lives. I think that the fallacy is to equate Lacus with a current pop star simply because of her public persona rather than to one of these historical figures.

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It all comes down how each individual interpreted with the scenes when destiny project was released to the world. How i interpreted seemed people liked the idea, my memmory is rusty and i watched the sub version. So i may have been off. But by saying that there is also a good portion posters who have also stated similar reaction to how i interpret the destiny plan.
I can't recall anyone displaying much affection over the Destiny Plan, while I can recall a fair number being shocked at its announcement.

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Thats debatable. We had some ruthless leaders in our time. Some were assasinated some were removed from power by force. WARS. Even some survived to live out their natural lives while still holding their ruthless power. Some of these ruthless leaders shouldnt be tolerated but we still do. Its only when its conviniant people take action against these characters and remove them from power. But this topic alone can go on for pages discussing history and right from wrong.
Sure, but assassination and war-mongering is usually considered beyond the pale.

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Yup i agree just all comes down to perspective pov who has been effected positive or negatively by his leadership that will determine in their own pov if his good or evil
That is correct. That's why we see characters like Shinn supporting him, while other characters like Yzak rebelled against him. Durandal himself recognized this weakness; which is why he designed such an elaborate plan.

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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
But i understand. You beleive his evil while myself think the opposite we have our logical reasons to back up our views. But my pov his just another politician with a deathstar. Wouldnt surprise me any country with nukes when forced into a corner they will use it to win a war. This is one of the UN biggest probs with countries that can field nukes. Nothing to stop them from using them if they are loosing.
You can call a fault of the direction if you prefer, but Durandal was plainly meant to be a villain. His vision was faulty to the point where even Rey repudiated it, and Durandal ended up accepting his failures. In a way, I think that perhaps the biggest problem with Destiny was that this element wasn't played out properly. And to that end, we needed a lot more development from Rey and Talia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan
In other news, I am more than disgusted when the producers gave Kira the white coat at the end of the movies. Give him the red. He more than deserves it. But, he doesn't deserve the white. If he is able to lead a team, I have not seen it.
You can put it down to nepotism . It's not as if Kira was qualified to be a general either, and that's the rank that Cagalli gave him. It'd be unfair for Lacus to demote him .
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Old 2009-03-03, 10:11   Link #970
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Lacus should have him as part of her private guard, a FAITH if you will. Extrajudicial usage of Strike Freedom: dangerous stuff if you ask me.
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Old 2009-03-03, 10:12   Link #971
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I never stop thinking .. why Lacus so protected .. why she never got wound .. and her relationship with Kira is never get complicated ..
in other hands, AsuCaga relationship is confused .. will Athrun move his heart to Meyrin .. Stil Confuse about this Anime .. I'm very upset ..
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Old 2009-03-03, 10:15   Link #972
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In the short rest between GS and GSD, Kira/Lacus had the chance to calm down and talk things over as they care for orphans. AsuCaga was very different as Athrun chose to live under another name, and act as a bodyguard. Not the best way to conduct a relationship.
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Old 2009-03-03, 10:18   Link #973
Sir Dearka
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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
Sir dirka once u go down that path it gets easier and easier to remove your conscience... After a while u have little to none conscience and pulling the trigger at soldier on the run or soldier who wishes to surrender your guilt and remorse diminshes and your mentality dramaticly changes.

These are the same people who gets promoted with more equipment and resourses and menpower to complete the given objectives. Once you have these people with little to none conscience making decisions battlefield life becomes extremely scarry for those who have not adapted or tasted warfare.

But this is not restricted just to soldiers, politicions can also follow this path.

But atm i think we are getting off topic so ill stop now before a mod comes in.
What you saying is that what I basically believe is evil is a natural part of war? Well, that's why Kira seems not to appeal to you that much - he is a civilian's dream of a perfect soldier - the one who'd always follow his conscience and respect for other people's lives, even if they ARE enemies... Not mentioning it is the cartoon adressed also for younger viewers, unlike some of the less grandeur but more gritty UC series.

Well, if any soldier does eventually lose his conscience on the course of war and unlike Tom Cruise's born on 4th of July he becomes a heartless android then he is just another victim pushed into hell by his choices or by the choices of those whom he chose/accepted as authority.

That's how I see it. AIf you want to continue the discussion in PM, I'll gladly take it there.

Oh, and please, could you kindly NOT twist my nick? "I don't know why, but Sir Dirka sounds somehow offending...
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Old 2009-03-03, 10:29   Link #974
winter45
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While elections tend to favor older, more "respectable" candidates, Lacus never got her power because of elections. There's nothing saying that young people can't do great things for their country. In fact, a fair number of history's greatest leaders gained the reins of power very early in their lives. I think that the fallacy is to equate Lacus with a current pop star simply because of her public persona rather than to one of these historical figures.
Dont get me wrong, Not saying very young people cant run nations (alexander the great) But my biggest complaint in this with modern governments u tend to see much older and experianced leaders running countries. Have to ask y do you see older instead younger.

Even tho u have EA and PLANT runned what seems like todays versions of government its hard to see Lacus running a government considering there are more experianced and quite capable people out there. Im sure if your country leader died there is a backup leader or emergency council to take over if such situation happened.

So given of all of this either offscreen she took power, people asked to run a government or simply the director chosed how it was ment to be. Either way it seems forced and not really beleivable from my pov which is another reason y i didnt like GSD. Sure its canon but didnt like the event/path how she got there.

Amaru hold the rank of lieutenant commander over 10 years of service. Its not a high rank and he has gone thru wars and skirmishes. So for kira to become a whitcoat seems so well not sure how to say it but BS.

If suddam hussain became USA 5 star General im sure he wont live long. (No such thing as freindly fire) If the enemy of my nation became my leader with welcom hands im sure there will people who will resent that which will cause morale to fall and desertions. Even worse a coup

So for kira to be up there seems more of fan service than actually realistic approach to a military environment. But its anime just people who are/have would yell out BS and a crucifiction if it ever became a reality lol

Last edited by winter45; 2009-03-03 at 11:17.
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Old 2009-03-03, 10:32   Link #975
winter45
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Originally Posted by Sir Dearka View Post
Oh, and please, could you kindly NOT twist my nick? "I don't know why, but Sir Dirka sounds somehow offending..
sorry thats my ignorance there, i just replied without reading. my bad.
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Old 2009-03-03, 14:12   Link #976
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Originally Posted by Shinn_Kabuto View Post
But this time, the 30th anniversary Gundam show is not the SEED movie but another UC series.



Anyway, you got that right, my friend. It's ok that they have cool Gundams but the AWFUL character development and the AWFUL story killed it. Including the plot goes nowhere.

Off-topic: Code Geass R2 will have become another "Gundam SEED Destiny" but good thing that Goro Taniguchi saved the series.

SEED wasn't bad but SEED Destiny is a TOTAL TRAINWRECK. And that's a FACT!

And no wonder why you get banned.

And Kamen Rider Decade pwns Kira Yamato. LOL

maybe a little history would remind you of GS.

Sunrise's president, Takayuki Yoshii, believes it was because Gundam SEED incorporated elements from popular live-action television dramas. Instead of focusing on the robot action, the show focused more on the characters.

so GS series was like j-drama of gundam but more on characters & might be the same on GSD.

give the fact it was mostly effecting the young generation of anime fans.
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Old 2009-03-03, 14:37   Link #977
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Originally Posted by yezhanquan
Lacus should have him as part of her private guard, a FAITH if you will. Extrajudicial usage of Strike Freedom: dangerous stuff if you ask me.
In-universe, it's not a bad idea to give Kira independent authority so that he doesn't have to follow the orders of ZAFT officers who might not be entirely loyal. Lacus knows Kira in and out, and he's not some sort of loose cannon, so there isn't a whole lot of inherent danger. I do agree, however, that having a FAITH designation is very destabilizing in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yezhanquan
In the short rest between GS and GSD, Kira/Lacus had the chance to calm down and talk things over as they care for orphans. AsuCaga was very different as Athrun chose to live under another name, and act as a bodyguard. Not the best way to conduct a relationship.
Athrun's position was quite humiliating for him in the interwar period. That's probably the main reason why he jumped at Durandal's offer to join ZAFT again - it was the first chance for him to find a place where he fit and could contribute.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45
Dont get me wrong, Not saying very young people cant run nations (alexander the great) But my biggest complaint in this with modern governments u tend to see much older and experianced leaders running countries. Have to ask y do you see older instead younger.

Even tho u have EA and PLANT runned what seems like todays versions of government its hard to see Lacus running a government considering there are more experianced and quite capable people out there. Im sure if your country leader died there is a backup leader or emergency council to take over if such situation happened.
While PLANT may have a modern-seeming government, its social structure is quite different. It's a very young nation, and there seems to be a fairly strong yearning for the auspices of aristocracy - hence the advanced positions that Lacus, Athrun and Yzak enjoy. On a similar note, political movements and factions work on almost feudal lines, with their names coming from their leaders. Lacus' power mostly derives from inheriting the power structure her father built, so it can be seen as an extension of this. It's not really all that disimilar from say, Napoleon III's rise to power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45
So given of all of this either offscreen she took power, people asked to run a government or simply the director chosed how it was ment to be. Either way it seems forced and not really beleivable from my pov which is another reason y i didnt like GSD. Sure its canon but didnt like the event/path how she got there.
I don't think that you're interepting the events properly. At the end of Destiny, Lacus effectively seized power; she didn't quite earn it through merit. With Durandal dead and both his and Patrick Zala's political movements discredited, there really wasn't anyone to stand in her way. Lacus had been the de facto leader of the Clyne party ever since her father died, and by the end of Destiny, most of what was left of ZAFT was probably loyal to her as well. In such circumstances, it'd be trivial for her to simply step into the head chair. There isn't a lot of information on how PLANT politics work, but even if there was an election, I can't see anyone running against her successfully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45
Amaru hold the rank of lieutenant commander over 10 years of service. Its not a high rank and he has gone thru wars and skirmishes. So for kira to become a whitcoat seems so well not sure how to say it but BS.
This is a poor example because the plausibility of how one military works isn't determined by how similar it is to a different fictional case. If you want to make comparisons, you should do so with real life ones. And even then you should realize how relevant those comparisons are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45
If suddam hussain became USA 5 star general im sure he wont live long. (No such thing as freindly fire) If the enemy of my nation bcame my leader with welcome hands im sure there will perople who will resent that which will cause morale to fall and desertions. Even worse a coup

So for kira to be up there seems more of fan service than actually realistic approach to a military environment. But its anime just people who are/have would yell out BS and a crucifiction if it ever became a reality lol
I'm not sure why you assume that ZAFT and the Orb militaries work like modern ones. Orb is an oligarchy, and we've already seen a couple of cases of Cagalli being jumped up to the titular commander of the entire Orb armed forces by the time she was 17, and we saw Jona do the same thing even though he seemed to have no military competence of any sort. Kira is a similar case, hence my point about nepotism isn't entirely in jest.

ZAFT seems to be a bit more of a meritocracy, but its foundation post-Destiny would be based on Lacus' troops. And there, Lacus was the de facto fleet commander even though she had no formal military training or experience whatsoever. By that point, ZAFT itself would be more loyal to Lacus than anyone else, and she was an outright rebel. I can't see most of them having all that much problem accepting Kira in general. There would certainly be individuals who would resent him, but they would also be the ones resentful of Lacus in the first place. Kira himself hadn't been any more an enemy of PLANT than Lacus for a long time, so it would probably be fairly limited to begin with.

And if you think about it, it's not as if recently enemy commanders haven't been placed in charge of armies before. A good case in point is William Tecumseh Sherman who was made Commanding General after the American Civil War even though lots of ex-Confederates hated him. It's unlikely that Kira would be given much of a command, so he'd be less problematic than Sherman.

While I agree that it's mostly fanservice, it's also a lot less unrealistic than the way you paint it.
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Old 2009-03-03, 20:05   Link #978
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Originally Posted by D-KLAC View Post
maybe a little history would remind you of GS.

Sunrise's president, Takayuki Yoshii, believes it was because Gundam SEED incorporated elements from popular live-action television dramas. Instead of focusing on the robot action, the show focused more on the characters.

so GS series was like j-drama of gundam but more on characters & might be the same on GSD.

give the fact it was mostly effecting the young generation of anime fans.
But still it doesn't made right. That's one of its flaws.
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Old 2009-03-03, 21:03   Link #979
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While PLANT may have a modern-seeming government, its social structure is quite different. It's a very young nation, and there seems to be a fairly strong yearning for the auspices of aristocracy - hence the advanced positions that Lacus, Athrun and Yzak enjoy. On a similar note, political movements and factions work on almost feudal lines, with their names coming from their leaders. Lacus' power mostly derives from inheriting the power structure her father built, so it can be seen as an extension of this. It's not really all that disimilar from say, Napoleon III's rise to power.
Theres still isnt enough in-universe evidense to support your theory hence my reasoining of posting. If im not mistaken Patrick Zala got into power by a vote in GS . If so, by feudal lines than Athrun should of been appointed as new leader. (Rightfully so if its done by lineage his father won the last election over president clyne)


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I don't think that you're interepting the events properly. At the end of Destiny, Lacus effectively seized power; she didn't quite earn it through merit. With Durandal dead and both his and Patrick Zala's political movements discredited, there really wasn't anyone to stand in her way. Lacus had been the de facto leader of the Clyne party ever since her father died, and by the end of Destiny, most of what was left of ZAFT was probably loyal to her as well. In such circumstances, it'd be trivial for her to simply step into the head chair. There isn't a lot of information on how PLANT politics work, but even if there was an election, I can't see anyone running against her successfully.
I personally found lots of incosistencies in GSD of course its fictional but i can only scratch my head trying to connect the dots together with lots of key information missing or not available and draw conclusions with little information that is present to give a solid resolution. Comes down to hypothesis. If there is any outside material eg astray then cools it would bridge in the gap.


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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
This is a poor example because the plausibility of how one military works isn't determined by how similar it is to a different fictional case. If you want to make comparisons, you should do so with real life ones. And even then you should realize how relevant those comparisons are.
True i use modernised settings when it comes to the military comaprisons, but where i comming from the only way someone would rise up the ranks that unbeleivable fast is either lots of dead officers to fill in the chain of command or your someones pet who biasedly got you up there without merit and distinction.
But ive alreadys stated its fiction. Just trying to convince someone who has done the real thing is going to be harder to pursuade. (technically speaking using GSD logic i should of at held the rank of MAJOR when i was 19 years of age)

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And if you think about it, it's not as if recently enemy commanders haven't been placed in charge of armies before. A good case in point is William Tecumseh Sherman who was made Commanding General after the American Civil War even though lots of ex-Confederates hated him. It's unlikely that Kira would be given much of a command, so he'd be less problematic than Sherman.
I do agree but kira and Sherman should not be used as an example. One is a pilot the other is an officer who commands manpower, resources and makes incredible decisions that can cost wars. 2 seperate forms of resposnibility. Kira hasnt been shown to have the ability to command but yet is given a title with no experiance. While General Sherman is understandable he has the experiance and leadership to fullfill that given role.

Cival wars shouldnt be used an example. Most civil wars in the 20th centuray last for a short time. Once war is over *most* offenders/loosers return back to their origional positions/stations. Just the ring leaders will be trialed and possibly executed.

In kiras case his an orb citizen who fought against zaft. This is will be like if sherman thought against england. Im sure the english wont put him as general of thier army.

Anyways we both can disagree with each other but ive already put in what ive liked to say. Anymore will just go in a neverending cycle of back and forth.
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Old 2009-03-03, 22:14   Link #980
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Theres still isnt enough in-universe evidense to support your theory hence my reasoining of posting. If im not mistaken Patrick Zala got into power by a vote in GS . If so, by feudal lines than Athrun should of been appointed as new leader. (Rightfully so if its done by lineage his father won the last election over president clyne)
Even in a purely feudal system, the heir apparent only takes power if the power structure is still in place. At the end of Seed, Patrick Zala was dead, his lieutenant Ezalia Joule was placed under arrest and his entire faction was discredited. How could Athrun be appointed leader in the face of all that. Moreover, my point wasn't that there was a strict one-to-one relationship between feudal systems (of which there are a great many, including ones with elections) and PLANT politics, merely that familial ties matter a lot more to PLANT than to most modern societies.

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I personally found lots of incosistencies in GSD of course its fictional but i can only scratch my head trying to connect the dots together with lots of key information missing or not available and draw conclusions with little information that is present to give a solid resolution. Comes down to hypothesis. If there is any outside material eg astray then cools it would bridge in the gap.
Inconsistencies are only to be expected of a work with a complexly structured background and a tortured narrative. However, your problem seems to be that you're trying to relate everything to the way modern systems work when they are modeled after very different ones. That's obviously going to produce conclusions that don't work very well. You can blame the show for that if you want, but it's hardly 100% at fault here.

By the way, all of my conclusions ignore anything that happens in the manga/side material. I think that a work should be able to stand on its own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
True i use modernised settings when it comes to the military comaprisons, but where i comming from the only way someone would rise up the ranks that unbeleivable fast is either lots of dead officers to fill in the chain of command or your someones pet who biasedly got you up there without merit and distinction.
But ive alreadys stated its fiction. Just trying to convince someone who has done the real thing is going to be harder to pursuade. (technically speaking using GSD logic i should of at held the rank of MAJOR when i was 19 years of age)
Your comparisons are off because you're comparing them to the wrong models. Can the militaries use better structures? Of course they can, but that isn't exactly the point of the show.

Are you related to any generals? Any heads of state? If you are, then you might well have been a colonel! That's how nepotism works, and that's how a lot of militaries used to function.

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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
I do agree but kira and Sherman should not be used as an example. One is a pilot the other is an officer who commands manpower, resources and makes incredible decisions that can cost wars. 2 seperate forms of resposnibility. Kira hasnt been shown to have the ability to command but yet is given a title with no experiance. While General Sherman is understandable he has the experiance and leadership to fullfill that given role.
The only reason I bring up Sherman is because of how disliked he was among some of those that served him. By the way, you really shouldn't ignore my point that Kira wasn't particularly likely to command very many people regardless of his rank.

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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
Cival wars shouldnt be used an example. Most civil wars in the 20th centuray last for a short time. Once war is over *most* offenders/loosers return back to their origional positions/stations. Just the ring leaders will be trialed and possibly executed.

In kiras case his an orb citizen who fought against zaft. This is will be like if sherman thought against england. Im sure the english wont put him as general of thier army.
But that's exactly what the situation was. There were two PLANT civil wars, and Kira fought on the winning side of both of them. Moreover, the PLANT notion of nationalism is a lot more flexible than most modern ones. They seem to care more about whether a particular person is a Coordinator or not. Since Kira eminently qualifies, and has the endorsement of the most well-favored Lacus, then why wouldn't most the people accept him?

A better comparison would be if Lafayette decided to join the American military after the end of the Revolutionary War. Some Americans would no doubt hate him, but he would have been accepted by a great many.

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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
Anyways we both can disagree with each other but ive already put in what ive liked to say. Anymore will just go in a neverending cycle of back and forth.
It's not a question of disagreeing. It's a question of how strong your arguments are. Your point is that the systems in Destiny are often nonsensical when viewed from a modern perspective. And to that, I would heartily agree.

But when one broadens the perspective to historical events, then it makes a lot more sense, and I have no problem supplying historical examples as illustration. I suppose that you might want to refute that, but simply repeating that it doesn't make sense isn't going to get you anywhere.
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