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Old 2006-01-01, 17:40   Link #81
Crusader
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I think Demongod had a point to what he said about shinn only respecting power or something like that. I mean, after he got in trouble, adn dully let him off the hook, he pretty much told athrun he was wrong and that he (shinn) was right cause the cahirman sided with him... depite athrun still outranking him...
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Old 2006-01-01, 18:03   Link #82
Shinji103
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Damn Shinji that hurts ...
Well to try and patch up those wounds, I think your debates are good, I just haven't heard anyone say anything about Shinn's nerfing too much lately.


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Originally Posted by Crusader
I think Demongod had a point to what he said about shinn only respecting power or something like that. I mean, after he got in trouble, adn dully let him off the hook, he pretty much told athrun he was wrong and that he (shinn) was right cause the cahirman sided with him... depite athrun still outranking him...
True, but that's about where they started nerfing Shinn. While I was watching that, I could kinda see that Shinn was starting to get the short end of the stick, since his character was going in the opposite direction of where it should be going if he were the main character.
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Old 2006-01-01, 18:44   Link #83
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Basically they turned Shinn from the Protagonist of the story to the Antagonist. And the thing is, he wasn't even the major Antagonist, he was a lacky! A LACKY!!
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Old 2006-01-01, 20:37   Link #84
Demongod86
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@ WD: whether Shinn could destroy Orb or not I didn't think mattered to him so much as the fact that Athrun just busted him for trying to kill LUNA, and now, after all was said and done, Shinn abused his power and then was left with nothing. And then odds are, Shinn remembered that he came down on Athrun for getting savioured. So essentially he became the very thing he hated...a powerless nobody that just was not worthy of his own respect...basically all of Shinn's bad sentiments on Athrun came to bite him in the ass even harder.

Well, I guess what goes around comes around. Shinn thought he was going to bring peace and happiness, and in the end, wanted to kill everyone including Luna. He got what was coming to him for the entire series. Kira got his in ep 34, Athrun in 37. Did anybody REALLY expect Shinn to come out of this unscathed?

Edit: About the Talia/Rey issue: what was Athrun going to do? Shoot the gun out of Talia's hand and say "bitch, you and this psycho kid are coming with us, no questions asked. Now move it along or I'll bust a cap in yo azz!"? Talia and Rey made their decisions, and frankly, I doubt Athrun wanted to deal with them any longer. He gave them their final respect rather than dragging them along unwillingly.
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Old 2006-01-01, 20:47   Link #85
demon_god04
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So by that reasoning Cagalli had no right to drag Athrun away from Justice at the end of GS and should have let him died since he already made his decision to go out with a bang along with Genesis? Talia aside I thought that the whole "reason" that Rey turned to Kira's side was because Kira convinced him he had a future and that despite being a clone his life is his own not anyone else's..... and then he just gives up and dies with Talia?
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Old 2006-01-01, 20:48   Link #86
Demongod86
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Talia was pointing a GUN at Athrun. She WANTED to die. And she wasn't just wavering on it, and odds are, there was little Athrun could have said to dissuade her. Dulli was the guy she really loved, and she wished to accompany his soul. And Rey is part of that disfunctional family. He chose to go out with a bang instead of suffering the same tortured existence Rau did.
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Old 2006-01-01, 20:55   Link #87
triggafinga666999
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i'd say it was the presumable ending
-Zaft loses the war
-Shin loses to kira/athrun
-Shin mourns more at his family
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Old 2006-01-01, 21:01   Link #88
Moon Eclipse
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demongod86
@ WD: whether Shinn could destroy Orb or not I didn't think mattered to him so much as the fact that Athrun just busted him for trying to kill LUNA, and now, after all was said and done, Shinn abused his power and then was left with nothing. And then odds are, Shinn remembered that he came down on Athrun for getting savioured. So essentially he became the very thing he hated...a powerless nobody that just was not worthy of his own respect...basically all of Shinn's bad sentiments on Athrun came to bite him in the ass even harder.

Well, I guess what goes around comes around. Shinn thought he was going to bring peace and happiness, and in the end, wanted to kill everyone including Luna. He got what was coming to him for the entire series. Kira got his in ep 34, Athrun in 37. Did anybody REALLY expect Shinn to come out of this unscathed?

Edit: About the Talia/Rey issue: what was Athrun going to do? Shoot the gun out of Talia's hand and say "bitch, you and this psycho kid are coming with us, no questions asked. Now move it along or I'll bust a cap in yo azz!"? Talia and Rey made their decisions, and frankly, I doubt Athrun wanted to deal with them any longer. He gave them their final respect rather than dragging them along unwillingly.
I have to say I don't agree with your assement. Fundementally because it would mean that Shinn had no character development at all even till the end of the series. Watching the episode plus, that would not seem to be the case to me. Shinn did grow at the very end. If the only reason why he cried was because he was beaten there would be no meaning to it. No push for growth on the part of Shinn.

As for Talia. Regardless, I think it just once again shows the hypocracy of the Lacus team.
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Old 2006-01-01, 21:09   Link #89
demon_god04
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I could sorta understand Talia wanting to die with Dully thats why I said Talia aside -.-

It was Rey that was a inconsistent...... well more then it was already........ Rey shot the person he trusted most because Kira um..... "convinced" him that everyone has a future and just cause hes a clone doesnt mean hes Rau. He wanted a future so why shouldnt he have gotten a chance? Kira wanted to avoid anymore meaningless deaths and believed in the future? So um was there any meaning in Talia and Rey choosing to die without him accually trying to convince them to live?

Ofcourse if Rey lived then he AND Shinn woulda joined the Lacus sentai and fight together with kira and athrun.... :vomit:
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Old 2006-01-01, 22:24   Link #90
Moon Eclipse
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That clone was going to die anyways regardless. Once his DNA was all used up he would have shiveled up like a prune and kicked the bucket. I agree with your assement on the inconsistence of Rey.

As for my comment, just saying that the uncaring nature that Kira and Athrun showed Rey, Talia and Gil is yet another example of their hypocratic nature within the Lacus faction
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Old 2006-01-01, 22:35   Link #91
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^ Which was why it was so disappointing.... Athrun and Kira are people who knows about the loss of loved ones in war, after finding out Talia has a son they still let her die with Dully without convincing her.... I would have thought Athrun would have tryed to convince Talia to live, if not for herself then for her son..... you know because he knows what its like to lose his mother..... ofcourse they just turned and left -.-
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Old 2006-01-01, 22:53   Link #92
Moon Eclipse
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Originally Posted by demon_god04
^ Which was why it was so disappointing.... Athrun and Kira are people who knows about the loss of loved ones in war, after finding out Talia has a son they still let her die with Dully without convincing her.... I would have thought Athrun would have tryed to convince Talia to live, if not for herself then for her son..... you know because he knows what its like to lose his mother..... ofcourse they just turned and left -.-
I agree -.-
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Old 2006-01-01, 23:07   Link #93
Demongod86
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Frankly, I just think Athrun had enough--of Talia completely blowing him off and participating in Angel Down even though she was FAITH and basically could completely blow off any order except from the chairman himself--at Rey for having Athrun nearly killed on more than one occasion as well, and of course for Durandall for putting him through all the shit to begin with. Athrun called out to Talia but she said no, and I don't think he was in the mood to debate with her in an exploding rock. Kira I think is just being the innocent guy he is. All of that crap is completely over his head--shit, it's the first time he ever saw Durandall, Rey, or Talia in person.

Hypocrisy? Is the Clyne Faction responsible to be superheroes of the CE universe? They do what they can, and stop where they want. Don't tell me that you expect Lacus to pick up the slack of every Moe, Bill, and Larry in the CE universe...she let people try their hand at self-organization, now she's stepping up her role. I think people are demanding too much of CF. They're NOT superheroes, they're not demigods, they are HUMAN BEINGS. Even if they ARE the most talented guys in the CE when it comes to flying a gundam. They still have hearts that beat, still have blood that flows, still have tummies that rumble.

It also seems that Talia entrusted her son to Murrue...I think Murrue will make a good mommy anyway ^_^
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Old 2006-01-01, 23:41   Link #94
Moon Eclipse
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Hypocrisy? Is the Clyne Faction responsible to be superheroes of the CE universe? They do what they can, and stop where they want. Don't tell me that you expect Lacus to pick up the slack of every Moe, Bill, and Larry in the CE universe...she let people try their hand at self-organization, now she's stepping up her role. I think people are demanding too much of CF. They're NOT superheroes, they're not demigods, they are HUMAN BEINGS. Even if they ARE the most talented guys in the CE when it comes to flying a gundam. They still have hearts that beat, still have blood that flows, still have tummies that rumble.

It also seems that Talia entrusted her son to Murrue...I think Murrue will make a good mommy anyway ^_^
Sorry I didn't know that Lacus wasn't the "goddess" that comes to the world's "rescue" everytime it's in "danger". No... they didn't just do that throughout GS and GSD... And no... they didn't think that they had it right while everyone seemed to be under the manipulations of some super villian bent on conquering the universe. No no no... they don't impose their own beliefs on others that don't have the ability and power to resist them... No they don't try and dictate the course of actions and path of humanity...

Sway in their beliefs? Never. Playing god by deciding who's right, who's wrong and who's going to get the chop? No... Saying they value life while themselves taking actions that causes more casualties and will eventually lead to more conflict and death? Nah never... Prizing their own needs and desires above the needs and desires of the rest of the universe? Who would ever accuse them of such a thing?
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Old 2006-01-01, 23:47   Link #95
demon_god04
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Operation Angel down was a Zaft operation and I believe it was authorized by Dully.... not sure though and im sorry if im wrong its been awhile since i watched GSD. But your saying that Athrun was petty enough to want Talia dead after the unsuccessful attempt to sink the AA? I dont believe that Athrun is that type of person...

What IM saying is that Athrun, as someone who has experienced the kind of loss that Talia's son will be going through, would do his best to persuade her to live. And as for Kira not knowing Rey and Talia... he doesnt know any of the faceless grunts he disables.... yet he doesnt get tired of disabling his enemies. So whats the differance here?
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Old 2006-01-01, 23:49   Link #96
Demongod86
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Actually, ME, you had it right in the very last line. They prioritized their own needs and desires above the needs and desires of the rest of the universe. You know, kind of like the blood money I earn (believe me, it IS blood money) working for 8 hours a day 5 days a week in the summer doesn't just go to some charity, but goes to buy me books, or a new computer, or something.

So yes, if you accuse them of that, you're absolutely right. They prioritize their own needs over everyone else's, they fight what THEY believe in, not Durandall, nor any of his supporters. They want things their way, and when they can fight for what they want, they WILL. It's actually called BEING HUMAN, which goes back to my point to begin with. They're HUMAN, not demigods. They really aren't there too much for the world. They're there because they have a claim to stake that connects to them personally, especially after Darth Gichou probably (well, he did, but Kira never found that out with hard proof) sent those assassins after Lacus, and was undoubtedly trying to kill her after that.

So it's about Durandall being a threat to the CF personally that he had to die. The Destiny Plan didn't help his case either by getting the CF more evidence to come after him, and nor did his manipulation of sweet, innocent Mia. And Mia died too . Bastard Gichou.
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Old 2006-01-01, 23:51   Link #97
wingdarkness
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Originally Posted by Demongod86
@ WD: whether Shinn could destroy Orb or not I didn't think mattered to him so much as the fact that Athrun just busted him for trying to kill LUNA, and now, after all was said and done, Shinn abused his power and then was left with nothing. And then odds are, Shinn remembered that he came down on Athrun for getting savioured. So essentially he became the very thing he hated...a powerless nobody that just was not worthy of his own respect...basically all of Shinn's bad sentiments on Athrun came to bite him in the ass even harder.

Well, I guess what goes around comes around. Shinn thought he was going to bring peace and happiness, and in the end, wanted to kill everyone including Luna. He got what was coming to him for the entire series. Kira got his in ep 34, Athrun in 37. Did anybody REALLY expect Shinn to come out of this unscathed?

Edit: About the Talia/Rey issue: what was Athrun going to do? Shoot the gun out of Talia's hand and say "bitch, you and this psycho kid are coming with us, no questions asked. Now move it along or I'll bust a cap in yo azz!"? Talia and Rey made their decisions, and frankly, I doubt Athrun wanted to deal with them any longer. He gave them their final respect rather than dragging them along unwillingly.
Once again you just ignore so much man...Firstly Shinn wakes out of his dream sequence saying Stella's name (thinking about her)...He awakes to see Messiah explode and crumble into nothingness...Knowing his leader, best friend, and his goal has been destroyed...He then cries his eyes out and goes a bit insane as he grapples Luna...Do you think he is actually thinking to himself, "Damn now I know how Athrun felt when he was OMGWTFBBQed SAVOIRED..." Are you kidding me...He doesn't care about that...He lost his dreams and goal in life and saw it crumble before his eyes...

As for the Rey//Talia thing....Athrun coulda said something or did something...Kira the ultimate life-lover could have said something, but they didn't have to...I understand, just a bit WTF?Face-inducing though...
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Old 2006-01-01, 23:54   Link #98
Demongod86
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Originally Posted by demon_god04
@demongod86
Operation Angel down was a Zaft operation and I believe it was authorized by Dully.... not sure though and im sorry if im wrong its been awhile since i watched GSD. But your saying that Athrun was petty enough to want Talia dead after the unsuccessful attempt to sink the AA? I dont believe that Athrun is that type of person...

What IM saying is that Athrun, as someone who has experienced the kind of loss that Talia's son will be going through, would do his best to persuade her to live. And as for Kira not knowing Rey and Talia... he doesnt know any of the faceless grunts he disables.... yet he doesnt get tired of disabling his enemies. So whats the differance here?
Kira is like Vash. Live and let live. So long as he doesn't kill them, his conscience is clean.

I'm not saying Athrun WANTED Talia dead, I'm just saying that he really didn't even want to bother trying to dissuade her from her decisions. She points a gun at him, okay. So Athrun mentally says: okay, however you like it...want to stay and die? Be my guest, you put me through too much hell for me to care about you anymore...

That and Talia was old enough to make her own decisions. She wanted to die? Okay, great. I just think that Athrun was being human. Talia's son is not his responsibility. Talia is not his responsibility EITHER.

For once, unlike in Cain and Abel, the line "Am I [her] keeper?" comes to mind. And no, Athrun is not Talia's keeper.

He had every right to let her go. Once again, I think people are expecting Athrun to be unnecessarily heroic. Athrun is a hero not because he tries to be, but because that's just how the ball rolls. He doesn't go out of his way to say "LET'S BE A HERO!"

Edit @ WD: Perhaps I'll bite on that one...but I definitely think that it was a thing of mutual respect that Shinn hopped onto the Justice.
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Old 2006-01-01, 23:59   Link #99
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^Yeah Talia really put Athrun thru alot of hell just following orders and all

Where do you come up with this stuff ?
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Old 2006-01-02, 00:02   Link #100
Demongod86
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I think seeing Kira's gundam blown to bits was enough!!!

Orders or not, I don't think Athrun has that strong of feelings for Talia's well being one way or another to be sticking around in an exploding asteroid!

If she wanted to go, great. If not, suit herself.
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