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Old 2009-07-10, 22:15   Link #1141
Aquaman OS
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Red Zaku is not a member of this forum (at least I hope not)

And while Mars doesn't have secret police Durandal might. Nowhere is it stated (not the interview nor the manga) that Durandal's Destiny Plan is the exact same one as on Mars. He got the idea from Mars, but since this is the Durandal who fired a WMD at the President of the nation who was trying to question him about this plan, stated that anyone who refused the plan is an enemy of mankind, tried to have Athrun killed when he doubted his loyalty, and most probably sent that team to kill Lacus so he could have his fake use her influence and power for his own purposes, yeah secret police probably aren't something he'd have much trouble doing.
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Old 2009-07-10, 22:57   Link #1142
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
All that was said about Mars was that it had never ever had a war under the DP. No previous history of wars before it since it could haven't been there for more than a few decades (George Glenn was the first person to travel into deeper space wasn't he? and that was only like 50 years before Seed)
Seed itself had two cataclysmic wars on Earth in the course of, what, three years? 'Decades' is plenty for wars, especially in respect to both the Seed time line and more general Gundam franchise. It's even truer in respect to modern history; just count the number of wars and conflicts in the last eight years alone.
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Also that interview might not even exist at all since people have only posted a so called "translation" and never the original article. Furthermore that article makes little sense as is because Fukuda claims that there will be no war yet some people will always reject the Plan because they were "Have nots" and fight against it, and thus that means war. Which is a total paradox.
No it isn't, because a minority of opposition doesn't necessitate war. Otherwise the Destiny Plan wouldn't work on Mars; people who dislike the system are given a way out, which keeps peace.

Saying 'maybe the article doesn't exist' to cast a shadow of doubt isn't good enough. Either contest the existence of the article or not; when you asked for proof and they all sent you to the same thing, they did their part. Either prove them wrong or accept it; demanding increasing burden of proof for a type of article which is normally only temporarily on the Japanese website anyway isn't going to prove them wrong.

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Don't listen to Red Zaku on this. He's totally biased against Lacus and Kira(since he's hated both of them and prayed for their death since Seed first came out) and interprets the article in a way to make them look bad. He also for some reason believes Durandal is for some reason not capable of lying and every word of his is total truth.
Regardless of his personal feelings, he brings up a number of points that are perfectly valid and expose serious flaws and weaknesses in the series script and characters. Like when Lacus went to space to find out if Durandal was behind everything, and ended up coming back with just a journel that Durandle didn't even write, and yet Lacus proceeded to lead her crusade anyway. Frankly there is a lot of bias, but most of it is for Lacus and Kira, and Red Zaku is a welcome relief from it.

The key tends to be separating poor writing from character flaws, which is Red Zaku's biggest weakness. (Then again, no amount of bad writing excuses Lacus going on a shopping trip and ruminating about the evils of Durandal when Dijribil just murded millions of coordinators at the PLANTS.) But that doesn't mean his points are invalid just because he's Red Zaku.

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Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream View Post
Wait so what was the reason fighting Durandall again? Because I seriously can't remember the reason for fighting against Durandall?
Lacus went to space to find out if Durandall was behind her assassination attempt. When she returns, she has no such proof or evidence but has found a years-old journal that Durandle didn't even write with the word "Destiny Plan" scrawled in it. By some hazy logic and not even knowing what it entails, Lacus decides Durandal is the true enemy.

Yeah, it just sort of happens.

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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
Is red zaku a member of this forum???? Who is he???
Not this forum, but another I used to go to. (Seed Forum? Something like that.) He does have a strong bias, but it's strongly supported by excellent knowledge of details of the show, of the backstory/side material, and a good eye for things that come up in the Japanese media. That last one might not count if you invalidate him as a second-hand source, but I've never known him to fabricate anything.
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DP seemed promising that war will be reduced.. but yeah whatever Lacus and kira came in and crash the party..
Strangely enough, the Destiny Plan offered what Lacus and Kira proclaimed to want; boring peace.

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Originally Posted by monstert View Post
That's actually an interesting take of the series if that were true. And for the producer to just say that, just wow. But as a counter point, the in-universe itself says it won't work because there are already people who opposed it for whatever reason. So yeah, maybe ideally it would work for the producer but the CE universe is not an ideal place and the people living there do not have the luxury of knowing that DP would work on such a larger scale. And since that future is lost (at least for the moment), that proves that DP is for now just an ideal future of both the PLANT chairman and the SEED producer. Well maybe not during the scope of the SEED series, but before and after we don't know. And the fact that they were actively using nuclear energy somewhat showed that the general public were not in constant fear of nuclear holocaust or simply the general misuse of it.
Just because people oppose the plan doesn't mean it doesn't work. It just means it's not universal, and there are proven safety valves to keep it stable and letting the unhappy leave in peace.



One thing about the Destiny Plan that a lot of people misunderstand is that it isn't politically biased towards Coordinators in the sense that coordinators get all the good jobs and would form a ruling elite. The Destiny Plan looks deeper at your genes and finds what the individual is best at, not finding who would be best for X. It's an aptitude test, not a genetic comparison test, and most of the coordinator abilities are irrelevant. If an individual coordinator is personally best at art, that's the direction the Destiny Plan would shuffle him towards. And if an individual natural's best skills are in engineering, that's where he would go. Even if the coordinator would be a better engineer than the natural. It's a subtle difference between job inclination and dictation that is missed by most.
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Old 2009-07-10, 23:19   Link #1143
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Just because people oppose the plan doesn't mean it doesn't work. It just means it's not universal, and there are proven safety valves to keep it stable and letting the unhappy leave in peace.
Leave in peace? Leave WHERE? The AFTERLIFE?
If Destiny Plan is implemented, it would be universal, as such there would be nowhere for the "unhappy" to leave in peace. There wouldn't be anywhere to go TO.
The Mars experiment worked because anyone who didn't like the plan had left. But there wouldn't be that option when it becomes global policy.


Quote:
One thing about the Destiny Plan that a lot of people misunderstand is that it isn't politically biased towards Coordinators in the sense that coordinators get all the good jobs and would form a ruling elite. The Destiny Plan looks deeper at your genes and finds what the individual is best at, not finding who would be best for X. It's an aptitude test, not a genetic comparison test, and most of the coordinator abilities are irrelevant. If an individual coordinator is personally best at art, that's the direction the Destiny Plan would shuffle him towards. And if an individual natural's best skills are in engineering, that's where he would go. Even if the coordinator would be a better engineer than the natural. It's a subtle difference between job inclination and dictation that is missed by most.
I never cared about the Coordinator/Natural angle. The Destiny Plan is horrible for both people equally.
Quite simply, it is not a simple "test" if the results are enforced by violence.

Job inclination? Go ahead. Job enforcement? Evil and must be eradicated. Telling people what job most suited them is one thing, ordering them to do the job you want them to whether they like it or not is another.
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Old 2009-07-10, 23:21   Link #1144
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
Red Zaku is not a member of this forum (at least I hope not)

And while Mars doesn't have secret police Durandal might. Nowhere is it stated (not the interview nor the manga) that Durandal's Destiny Plan is the exact same one as on Mars. He got the idea from Mars, but since this is the Durandal who fired a WMD at the President of the nation who was trying to question him about this plan, stated that anyone who refused the plan is an enemy of mankind, tried to have Athrun killed when he doubted his loyalty, and most probably sent that team to kill Lacus so he could have his fake use her influence and power for his own purposes, yeah secret police probably aren't something he'd have much trouble doing.
But now you're making up entire insinuations that have no basis except your own suspicions. Nowhere is it said that Durandal's Destiny Plan is not the same one that was used in Mars. And since the entire point of including it in the post-series side material was to explain to the audiences what the Destiny Plan actually did and that it worked, marketing, thematic, and even occam-razor sense all imply that there is no "Police State!Destiny Plan" edit by Durandal.

Now, a few point-by-points.

-The President of the Atlantic Federation, which had just murdered millions of PLANT citizens and attempted far more numerous times over the course of the short war, was launching towards the PLANTS with a Federation war fleet. He was not an innocent emmisionary; he was the equivalent of the guy who just tried to mug you coming at you with a knife while saying he wants to talk things out.

-Durandle would be correct in saying that those who would fought against the Destiny Plan are enemies of mankind. The Destiny Plan is the endgame to achieve species-wide peace, contentment, political stability without political oppression, economic prosperity, and personal and political freedoms, all in exchange for deciding someone's job, something those who live under the system are by and large happy to trade. The people who are opposing it (as of the time he said it, the Lacus faction) are fighting for a status quo that saw two genocidal wars break out in a period of less than five years, with no solution to solve any of the impetuses that caused the war and hatred in the first place. And worst of all, they have no clear reason for doing so, because they don't know what the Destiny Plan entailed, they don't have any proof Durandle was behind the murder attempt, and their solution is to install Lacus in power via a coup.

-He tried to have Athrun arrested because Athrun was providing every reason to doubt his loyalty. You don't keep giving high-tech military equipment to a guy who meets with third-party attackers behind your back, has been in a relationship with two powerful political figures opposing you, and have openly been questioning and opposing sensible and understandable operations. Athrun wasn't exactly giving much reason to trust him.

-The jury is still out on who was behind the Lacus assasination attempt, for a very basic reason. Remember when Lacus went to space, to find out if Durandle was in any way behind it all? She found nothing at all. Durandle didn't need to kill her, because he was already using Meer to keep the PLANTS from going into blood-rage and Lacus wasn't interrupting.


Your argument that Durandal's Destiny Plan was Police State Evil basically amounts to "He killed a guy who's been trying to genocide him, he arrested a guy who was both seen as and actually was unreliable, and he may have been involved with something the story itself couldn't provide proof that he was involved with." That's... pretty weak.
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Old 2009-07-10, 23:24   Link #1145
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Your argument that Durandal's Destiny Plan was Police State Evil basically amounts to "He killed a guy who's been trying to genocide him, he arrested a guy who was both seen as and actually was unreliable, and he may have been involved with something the story itself couldn't provide proof that he was involved with." That's... pretty weak.
The Police-State is a requirement for Destiny Plan. It is, quite simply, the systematic spying on of the entire population to enforce the career path of every human being.

That's all. That's what Destiny Plan is. No matter how magical the genetic analyzing machine is, the point is the enforcement of making sure everyone is doing what you want him/her to do. And that's a police state by definition.
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Old 2009-07-10, 23:25   Link #1146
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Leave in peace? Leave WHERE? The AFTERLIFE?
If Destiny Plan is implemented, it would be universal, as such there would be nowhere for the "unhappy" to leave in peace. There wouldn't be anywhere to go TO.
The Mars experiment worked because anyone who didn't like the plan had left. But there wouldn't be that option when it becomes global policy.
There's that big thing called 'space.' That's where most of the Mars dissidents left to. As long as there's more frontier left to colonize (and there is: Venus, the Asteroid Belt, or even meet those whales at Mars), the Destiny Plan societies have a safety valve.



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I never cared about the Coordinator/Natural angle. The Destiny Plan is horrible for both people equally.
Quite simply, it is not a simple "test" if the results are enforced by violence.
And your proof that it's enforced by violence? There are many, many ways that governments insure things happen without hiring thugs to find Joe Schmuk.
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Job inclination? Go ahead. Job enforcement? Evil and must be eradicated. Telling people what job most suited them is one thing, ordering them to do the job you want them to whether they like it or not is another.
It's fortunate then that the Destiny Plan doesn't force them to do it whether they like it or not then, isn't it?
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Old 2009-07-10, 23:29   Link #1147
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
There's that big thing called 'space.' That's where most of the Mars dissidents left to. As long as there's more frontier left to colonize (and there is: Venus, the Asteroid Belt, or even meet those whales at Mars), the Destiny Plan societies have a safety valve.
So you are saying Gilbert will simply exile everyone who disagree with him?
THAT will go down well... NOT!
Do you remember Nadesico?

You think exiling everyone who disagreeing with you isn't the formation of a Police State?

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And your proof that it's enforced by violence? There are many, many ways that governments insure things happen without hiring thugs to find Joe Schmuk.
It's fortunate then that the Destiny Plan doesn't force them to do it whether they like it or not then, isn't it?
If there is no enforcement, then the machine is just a career adviser. We have those kinds of things IRL already, and they don't cause world peace.

There is absolutely no hint anywhere that Destiny Plan is voluntary. It is about enforcement; that's the only thing that can create peace, by taking away free will.
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Old 2009-07-10, 23:32   Link #1148
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I agree with VCV. For me, it's pretty clear that Durandal was implementing the plan with the option of exterminating those who disagree with him.
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Old 2009-07-10, 23:32   Link #1149
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
4tran, the Destiny Plan does work. It's a canonical fact via the side material (Delta Seed Astray, IIRC), and it's already been enacted in the Seed-verse in Mars. Durandle's DP is said to be the same as the one enacted on Mars, which has been successful at ending all wars there.

Yes, it's unreasonable. Illogical. Impossible. It's magical. But then, so are space whales and the genetic babble behind coordinators. Like it or hate it, the Destiny Plan works by the creator's own admission.
Normally speaking, when we see a story try to depict illogical and unreasonable events as happening, we can pin that down to bad writing. Luckily, Gundam manga works are considered non-canon, and so we're talking about material that's in a poorly written non-canon work. As such, I think that it can be safely ignored.

In any case, for what happens on Mars to have the slightest bearing on the Destiny story points, Mars would have had to have been addressed in the show itself. That it was not by any of the characters reveals just how important it is to any such analysis.


Seeing as RedZaku is not a member of this forum, I'm going to ask everyone to stop bringing him up. It would be especially rude to do so to complain about him, so I can't let that continue.
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Old 2009-07-10, 23:40   Link #1150
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Saying 'maybe the article doesn't exist' to cast a shadow of doubt isn't good enough. Either contest the existence of the article or not; when you asked for proof and they all sent you to the same thing, they did their part. Either prove them wrong or accept it; demanding increasing burden of proof for a type of article which is normally only temporarily on the Japanese website anyway isn't going to prove them wrong.

Regardless of his personal feelings, he brings up a number of points that are perfectly valid and expose serious flaws and weaknesses in the series script and characters. Like when Lacus went to space to find out if Durandal was behind everything, and ended up coming back with just a journel that Durandle didn't even write, and yet Lacus proceeded to lead her crusade anyway. Frankly there is a lot of bias, but most of it is for Lacus and Kira, and Red Zaku is a welcome relief from it.
See I've repeatedly asked for the original source or even the original translation but all RZ does it quote it himself (and even then only the parts that make Lacus and Kira look to be bad while Durandal is a saint) which is certainly not something I will except as a first hand source. But since I can't talk to the man without him reducing me to near tears with his insults I've just refused to talk with him anymore. Unfortunately anytime the DP is ever brought up he's there within seconds to bash his hated characters so I'm never able to speak about this at SF (where I am no longer welcome thanks to RZ and his lynch mob).

As for Lacus and Kira they initially went to space to gather info and prepare for a possible battle with Durandal (since they didn't trust him). They decided to leave Requiem to Zaft (can you blame them? Do you think Shinn and co would be happy for them to pop up and attempt to help?) and it wasn't until the Destiny Plan was announced and Durandal had Requiemed the EA remnants that they decided to take action.

In fact the whole final battle didn't really seem to be about the DP at all but rather the fact that Durandal had WMD's and had proved willing to use them and Kira and co believed that such weapons shouldn't exist and be in anyone's hands (which was the reason Yzak and Dearka decided to help them since they'd went to the trouble of destroying it only for Durandal to repair it and steal it for himself) and since they believed (and IMO were right) that Durandal would Requiem Orb if they refused the plan which they planned to do, what other choice did they have? Wait and see if he'd do it? If they were right it'd be too late by then. Bow down and join the DP against their will? The whole point wasn't that the DP was bad but that enforcing the DP against people's will with a nation destroying cannon was.

Edit: Ah sorry I took to long to write this and didn't get to 4tran's post. I'll stop complaining about Red from here on.
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Old 2009-07-10, 23:50   Link #1151
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
So you are saying Gilbert will simply exile everyone who disagree with him?
THAT will go down well... NOT!
Do you remember Nadesico?

You think exiling everyone who disagreeing with you isn't the formation of a Police State?
I remember thinking Nadesico was a subpar anime that bored me to tears.

The Destiny Plan societies don't need to exile everyone who disagrees. It doesn't even exile: it just lets people who wish to leave, leave. There are plethoras of ways to deal with dissident besides exile and persecution. Do I really need to touch on ways?
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If there is no enforcement, then the machine is just a career adviser. We have those kinds of things IRL already, and they don't cause world peace.

There is absolutely no hint anywhere that Destiny Plan is voluntary. It is about enforcement; that's the only thing that can create peace, by taking away free will.
I never said there wasn't enforcement, but it doesn't have to be by force, which seems to be the only version you accept.

The Destiny Plan does not take away free will; this isn't 1984 pyschological conditioning, or Brave New World drug conditioning. People grow up, take the test, and are nearly uniformly happy with what they end up with. People who don't like it have every right to complain, to adapt, and if they consider it bad enough they are always free to leave. The Destiny Plan doesn't take away free will, it's a social compact that frames the question that free will is asked.
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Old 2009-07-10, 23:52   Link #1152
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Normally speaking, when we see a story try to depict illogical and unreasonable events as happening, we can pin that down to bad writing. Luckily, Gundam manga works are considered non-canon, and so we're talking about material that's in a poorly written non-canon work. As such, I think that it can be safely ignored.

In any case, for what happens on Mars to have the slightest bearing on the Destiny story points, Mars would have had to have been addressed in the show itself. That it was not by any of the characters reveals just how important it is to any such analysis.


Seeing as RedZaku is not a member of this forum, I'm going to ask everyone to stop bringing him up. It would be especially rude to do so to complain about him, so I can't let that continue.
I disagree that it can be ignorred in the context of the discussion since it screamed 'post-series explanations', but I understand your verdict. I'll stop referring to it.
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Old 2009-07-11, 00:14   Link #1153
monster
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Just because people oppose the plan doesn't mean it doesn't work. It just means it's not universal, and there are proven safety valves to keep it stable and letting the unhappy leave in peace.
Even assuming that the Destiny Plan would work, it will have to work universally because having people not bound by the plan would mean the possibility of war still exists. We even see that separating coordinators in the PLANTs from naturals on Earth didn't put an end to their conflict.
Quote:
One thing about the Destiny Plan that a lot of people misunderstand is that it isn't politically biased towards Coordinators in the sense that coordinators get all the good jobs and would form a ruling elite. The Destiny Plan looks deeper at your genes and finds what the individual is best at, not finding who would be best for X. It's an aptitude test, not a genetic comparison test, and most of the coordinator abilities are irrelevant. If an individual coordinator is personally best at art, that's the direction the Destiny Plan would shuffle him towards. And if an individual natural's best skills are in engineering, that's where he would go. Even if the coordinator would be a better engineer than the natural. It's a subtle difference between job inclination and dictation that is missed by most.
You also have to put into account the demand of workers for each job. Unless you can provide enough job that best fit everybody, there will still be competition. And where there's competition, the ones with better genes AND shows better result will have better chances of getting the jobs they're most suited for.
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Old 2009-07-11, 00:16   Link #1154
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post

Now, a few point-by-points.

-The President of the Atlantic Federation, which had just murdered millions of PLANT citizens and attempted far more numerous times over the course of the short war, was launching towards the PLANTS with a Federation war fleet. He was not an innocent emmisionary; he was the equivalent of the guy who just tried to mug you coming at you with a knife while saying he wants to talk things out.

-Durandle would be correct in saying that those who would fought against the Destiny Plan are enemies of mankind. The Destiny Plan is the endgame to achieve species-wide peace, contentment, political stability without political oppression, economic prosperity, and personal and political freedoms, all in exchange for deciding someone's job, something those who live under the system are by and large happy to trade. The people who are opposing it (as of the time he said it, the Lacus faction) are fighting for a status quo that saw two genocidal wars break out in a period of less than five years, with no solution to solve any of the impetuses that caused the war and hatred in the first place. And worst of all, they have no clear reason for doing so, because they don't know what the Destiny Plan entailed, they don't have any proof Durandle was behind the murder attempt, and their solution is to install Lacus in power via a coup.

-He tried to have Athrun arrested because Athrun was providing every reason to doubt his loyalty. You don't keep giving high-tech military equipment to a guy who meets with third-party attackers behind your back, has been in a relationship with two powerful political figures opposing you, and have openly been questioning and opposing sensible and understandable operations. Athrun wasn't exactly giving much reason to trust him.

-The jury is still out on who was behind the Lacus assasination attempt, for a very basic reason. Remember when Lacus went to space, to find out if Durandle was in any way behind it all? She found nothing at all. Durandle didn't need to kill her, because he was already using Meer to keep the PLANTS from going into blood-rage and Lacus wasn't interrupting.
1. The President was under the control of Djbril who was dead. Also he certainly had enough time to talk and then Requiem afterwards if he didn't like what he had to say. But the fact that he goes and just blows him away pretty much states that he isn't interested in anyone refusing his plan. It does make him look heartless there.

2. The Lacus faction wasn't part of the discussion. It was Orb that was. Cagalli issues a statement saying basically "Thanks but we aren't interested the plan." And Durandal's response is "I thought I made myself clear, this is the only solution. People who oppose this plan are enemies of mankind." His assistant then laments that if Orb had been more devastated during the war they would have no choice but to accept. (which opens a whole other can of worms right there as to why Durandal looked so pleased when he had a reason to attack Orb but that's another story.) And then states that since EA was already moblizing and Orb wasn't he'd deal with Orb later. That's not talking about Lacus fighting against him. He was considering a nation that had only politely refused his plan an enemy of mankind which again suggested he planned to enforce with with military power.

3. He had the recording and knew that Athrun wasn't sharing Zaft secrets. Athrun was infact supporting him there. In the special edition the conversation between him and Rey is pretty much "Athrun isn't useful to us anymore and might become a threat. We have pictures. Let's fabricate a story" and when Rey attacks him he pretty much says "We don't need you anymore". Regardless of whether Athrun was not reliable they were framing him there.

4. Also in the special editions between Kira trashing the ASH's and Kira kidnapping Cagalli from the wedding, we have a scene of Durandal examining Shinn's data and pondering that Shinn could possibly defeat Kira at this rate.

This is long before Kira would do anything to interfere. In fact the only way he would know that Kira was back and Freedom was restored was if he had been monitoring that ASH team since he hadn't made a public appearance yet. Why would be already be planning for Shinn and Kira to throw down back then?

On another point Durandal says to Athrun that he respects Lacus and wishes he could have her help him but alas she can't be located. Yet in his private thoughts all he thinks about Lacus is how troublesome she is and how she corrupts people into thinking for themselves instead of just following instructions. Sounds less like he respects her and more like he envies her influence and wants it for himself. That's very good cause to want her killed.
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Old 2009-07-11, 00:19   Link #1155
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
People who don't like it have every right to complain, to adapt, and if they consider it bad enough they are always free to leave.
Leave and go to WHERE?

Gilbert demanded that all human societies either adopt destiny plan or die by death ray. There isn't ANYWHERE to go to!

If Gilbert allowed Orb to not follow Destiny Plan, then fine; but it was clearly shown that any society not agreeing with it will be vaporized. There is no where to go.

And you can't tell a people to leave their own neighborhood, their towns, their countries, their PLANET, just because you just applied a draconian law they don't agree with. That's madness.

In fact, why don't those who WANT the Destiny Plan, GO! If they like to have their freedom taken away so badly, they can leave Earth and go to another Galaxy and have their own private society. The rest of us can have our free will. What made you think Gilbert has the right to exile anybody?
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Old 2009-07-11, 06:59   Link #1156
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Leave and go to WHERE?

Gilbert demanded that all human societies either adopt destiny plan or die by death ray. There isn't ANYWHERE to go to!

If Gilbert allowed Orb to not follow Destiny Plan, then fine; but it was clearly shown that any society not agreeing with it will be vaporized. There is no where to go.
It's called S-P-A-C-E. The asteroid belt, Jupiter, Venus. As long the the final frontier of space remains, the fringes of the dissaffected can go to like minds outside. Just like most of the Mars people did.

I apologize, I thought it was self-evident in a sci-fi setting.
Quote:
And you can't tell a people to leave their own neighborhood, their towns, their countries, their PLANET, just because you just applied a draconian law they don't agree with. That's madness.
You really should avoid hyperbole; it doesn't become you. That wouldn't happen for most of the tiny minority of disaffected, and you know it. Most people just accept laws they don't agree with, and don't cause a fuss. The Destiny Plan government doesn't say 'get on board or get lost', it leaves the option for leaving to the individual. Either they can accept
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In fact, why don't those who WANT the Destiny Plan, GO! If they like to have their freedom taken away so badly, they can leave Earth and go to another Galaxy and have their own private society. The rest of us can have our free will. What made you think Gilbert has the right to exile anybody?
Gilbert isn't exiling anyone. No one has been exiled. They chose to leave on their own violation, without being coerced. It's like those people who say they'll move to Canada if X gets elected, except everyone knows X will be elected anyway. They might hate X, and X might have no love for them, but X isn't saying "get out."

Again, stop fostering totalitarian characteristics on the Destiny Plan. It isn't an oppressive police state. It doesn't strip away people's free will and individuality. It isn't a communistic egaltarian society where everyone gets paid the same no matter what they do. It doesn't take away their opinions, or forbid them talking about whatever they want. All it does, the one thing we actually know about it from the series itself, is that it determines the job skills you would be best at.

If you want to talk about societies where your freedom taken away, look no farther than the history of capitalism, of anti-terrorism laws like the Patriot Act, of lauded governments who will black list you, harass you, and can lock you up indefinitely without evidence. Or, if you want Seed context, the governments which will kill you for how you were born.


As for why it should be the non-Destiny Plan people who should feel free to leave? Because they're the minority. The vast minority, in fact. "The rest of us" comprises a fringe of the Destiny Plan society comparitive to, saw, people who swear they know about Jimmy Hoffa.
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Old 2009-07-11, 08:36   Link #1157
C.A.
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Age: 27
As far as I've seen Destiny Plan in action several times in various SRWs and the show itself, Gilbert was really going totalitarian with the plan.

He absolutely wants everyone to follow their genes and only their genes. You are supposed to do what your genes say you are best at, you are not going to go for your interests if your genes don't say so.

He will chase down anyone who opposes the plan, so that he can create a human society or shape the human race itself into a race that follows their genes. In SRW, he even wants to apply this on aliens and parallel universe sliders or they will be eliminated. He will not let anyone leave if they're on Earth once the plan starts running.

The reason why the 'good guys' are opposed to Destiny Plan is because it removes true freedom from humanity, people are not allowed to have dreams and wishes. They can only follow their genes.

Durandal was affected by Rau for having such an ill fate and he somehow came up with this twisted plan so that people can supposedly live 'ideal lives'.

Imagine if you love music and like playing sports, but you're born with great genes and physique that's perfect for being a soldier. Destiny Plan states that you are to be trained to join the army for your life, you won't be practicing music or training sports.
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Last edited by C.A.; 2009-07-11 at 08:50.
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Old 2009-07-11, 09:03   Link #1158
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
I find it hilarious that Dean_the_Young truly believe Destiny Plan is just a Career-adviser program.

1st, it is strange that he think a Career adviser program would bring about world peace.

2nd, I found it even more hilarious that he thinks most people would be happy to be assigned jobs by a machine with no choice in the matter, and never object.

You job is something you are doing for the majority of your waking life. Tell me, Dean_the_Young, what IS your job?

And what would you feel if I tell you Destiny Plan has determined that your current job just wouldn't do, and assigned another job that payed half as much, needing you to work twice as hard, and that you are entirely overqualified for?

As for majority VS minority...
The simple fact is, in this very forum your views are already outnumbered. So what made you think there is more of you in the outside world than more of us?

You say people would not object. But clearly people objected, because there would have been no need for the death ray, and we wouldn't be disagreeing with you right now otherwise.

EDIT:
And the weirdest part is? Your version of the GSD world doesn't need Destiny Plan at all! You assume world peace would be achieved for no other reason than everyone getting along with government demands 100% of the time, never riot, and that people who disagree will voluntarily disappear into deep space and never seen again.
If that's the case, if the population is that corporative, then there would not be any war to begin with!
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Old 2009-07-11, 09:55   Link #1159
Dean_the_Young
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
As far as I've seen Destiny Plan in action several times in various SRWs and the show itself, Gilbert was really going totalitarian with the plan.

He absolutely wants everyone to follow their genes and only their genes. You are supposed to do what your genes say you are best at, you are not going to go for your interests if your genes don't say so.

He will chase down anyone who opposes the plan, so that he can create a human society or shape the human race itself into a race that follows their genes. In SRW, he even wants to apply this on aliens and parallel universe sliders or they will be eliminated. He will not let anyone leave if they're on Earth once the plan starts running.

The reason why the 'good guys' are opposed to Destiny Plan is because it removes true freedom from humanity, people are not allowed to have dreams and wishes. They can only follow their genes.

Durandal was affected by Rau for having such an ill fate and he somehow came up with this twisted plan so that people can supposedly live 'ideal lives'.

Imagine if you love music and like playing sports, but you're born with great genes and physique that's perfect for being a soldier. Destiny Plan states that you are to be trained to join the army for your life, you won't be practicing music or training sports.
SRW is as canonical as a fanfic. It's far less than, say
]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
I find it hilarious that Dean_the_Young truly believe Destiny Plan is just a Career-adviser program.

1st, it is strange that he think a Career adviser program would bring about world peace.
I don't, but when the creator of the series itself says it works, it's a case of author's fiat. Just like I don't think coordinators are possible as depicted, that mechas are ridiculous, and that pretty much every single every story of all Gundam (and mecha anime in general) is implausible and impossible to the extreme.

Quote:
2nd, I found it even more hilarious that he thinks most people would be happy to be assigned jobs by a machine with no choice in the matter, and never object.
Again, it's not a matter of what I think. It's director fiat: most people are content under the Destiny Plan. The Destiny Plan works. These fall apart immediately if introduced into a reality-based setting, but so do pop-star warlords and micronesian superpower island empires.

Logic and reason get thrown out in the Seed-verse quite often, and the Destiny Plan is just another example.
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You job is something you are doing for the majority of your waking life. Tell me, Dean_the_Young, what IS your job?
Training for engineering and military. Which, ironically, is well established in both of my family histories.

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And what would you feel if I tell you Destiny Plan has determined that your current job just wouldn't do, and assigned another job that payed half as much, needing you to work twice as hard, and that you are entirely overqualified for?
First of all, if I was in the Destiny Plan then I wouldn't be in an established job in the first place. Second, if I was raised in a Destiny Plan world, I would grow up accepting it. And third, it would probably be for my own benefit, emotionally and physically. I'm not particularly enamoured by electrical engineering at the moment, and getting out of the military would certainly be better for my overall health.
Quote:
As for majority VS minority...
The simple fact is, in this very forum your views are already outnumbered. So what made you think there is more of you in the outside world than more of us?
Because I'm outnumbered on a subforum of an obscure entertainment genre which, by its nature, attracts geeks and such and generally social outcasts in a subculture movement distinct and different from mainstream culture.

In effect, I'm disagreeing with a distinct minority population: people who follow and spend much of their time getting upset over discussions about japanese cartoons. That, like, puts me towards the majority by default.

Quote:
You say people would not object. But clearly people objected, because there would have been no need for the death ray, and we wouldn't be disagreeing with you right now otherwise.
There's no death ray over Mars, and you are disagreeing in no small part because of the individualistic culture in which you were raised. If you grow up outside a Destiny Plan culture, of course you're more likely to oppose it. The worst part of the Destiny Plan is establishing it, but I have a hard time seeing it as worse in context than what has and is sure to continue to happen in the Seed verse without it.

You also recognize, like me, that it wouldn't work in reality, but again that's confusing fictional fiat with reality.
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Old 2009-07-11, 10:07   Link #1160
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
Quote:
Training for engineering and military. Which, ironically, is well established in both of my family histories.
Sorry, Destiny Plan doesn't give a damn about your family history, only your blood sample.

If you think your DNA would somehow tell the machine that you should keep your current career path, you are in for a rude awakening.

And let me repeat: If the GSD world is as easily to manipulate as you claim it was, then Destiny Plan would be unnecessary. You just need to pass a new law saying "it is illegal to start wars", and peace will come because everyone will follow it. And anyone who still wanted to have wars will simply be "voluntarily send off into deep space", as you claimed. There, exactly the same result as the original Destiny Plan, except everyone kept their own choice of jobs.
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