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Old 2009-07-11, 10:50   Link #1161
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Sorry, Destiny Plan doesn't give a damn about your family history, only your blood sample.

If you think your DNA would somehow tell the machine that you should keep your current career path, you are in for a rude awakening.
The irony, in case you missed it, was that it might well be 'genetic'. Which, when you add in the fact that I admitted I'm not enthralled with engineering, puts me in the strange position in which a Destiny Plan society might force me to stay on my current path.

Of course, you're arguing from the assumption that everyone normally picks the job they really want, and that the Destiny Plan will always push you away from that into something you won't like. Now, living in a capitalist society and having met a lot of people from a wide range of jobs, I can assure you that is rarely the case; I know plenty of civil servents, professors, ROAD military personel, and a plethora of people in the service industry who didn't dream of getting where they are today. The Destiny Plan is as likely to shuffle you to something you enjoy as not, so asking "how would you feel if you were pushed away from a job you like and for half the pay" can be just as easily countered "how would you feel if you were pushed from a job you hated and gained twice the pay?"

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And let me repeat: If the GSD world is as easily to manipulate as you claim it was, then Destiny Plan would be unnecessary. You just need to pass a new law saying "it is illegal to start wars", and peace will come because everyone will follow it. And anyone who still wanted to have wars will simply be "voluntarily send off into deep space", as you claimed. There, exactly the same result as the original Destiny Plan, except everyone kept their own choice of jobs.
I'm not the one claiming, I'm accepting what the creator of the Seed world himself said: that the Destiny Plan would solve the problems of the Seed world. You're the one claiming and insinuating it's a dystopian police state.

Yes, you're still insinuating that people are exiled by a double-speak police state without backing it up. Now, will you please support, from actual source material and not your own ideology, that those who left the Destiny Plan on Mars did so on anything but their own violation?
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Old 2009-07-11, 11:02   Link #1162
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Of course, you're arguing from the assumption that everyone normally picks the job they really want, and that the Destiny Plan will always push you away from that into something you won't like. Now, living in a capitalist society and having met a lotI'm not the one claiming, I'm accepting what the creator of the Seed world himself said: that the Destiny Plan would solve the problems of the Seed world. You're the one claiming and insinuating it's a dystopian police state.

Yes, you're still insinuating that people are exiled by a double-speak police state without backing it up. Now, will you please support, from actual source material and not your own ideology, that those who left the Destiny Plan on Mars did so on anything but their own violation?
The ANIME told you it would be a dystopian police state, because otherwise the death ray would not be necessary.
Destiny Plan WILL solve the problems of the SEED world. Except as you pointed out, it require everyone who disagreed with it to leave.

So why can't we just solve the problem with the SEED world by requiring everyone who want to have wars to leave and never come back?

I am not disagreeing with Fukuda, the Director, when he claimed the world would be at peace forever under Destiny Plan. As long as the Police State works, there would be peace. Your claim that it wouldn't be a police-state is entirely contrary to what we have shown with Gilbert, who clearly manipulate the media as to deceive the populations at will with doctored videos and fake celebrities, and use lethal force against his opponents.

Fukuda said there will be peace; he never said the people would be happy.
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Old 2009-07-11, 11:28   Link #1163
Ansa
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...

I remember this topic being started 3 years ago...

Seriously it's still being discussed?

The answer GSD failed was said in the first page, fail director and fail writer couple.
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Old 2009-07-11, 12:21   Link #1164
Foreshadow
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The ANIME told you it would be a dystopian police state, because otherwise the death ray would not be necessary.
Destiny Plan WILL solve the problems of the SEED world. Except as you pointed out, it require everyone who disagreed with it to leave.

So why can't we just solve the problem with the SEED world by requiring everyone who want to have wars to leave and never come back?

I am not disagreeing with Fukuda, the Director, when he claimed the world would be at peace forever under Destiny Plan. As long as the Police State works, there would be peace. Your claim that it wouldn't be a police-state is entirely contrary to what we have shown with Gilbert, who clearly manipulate the media as to deceive the populations at will with doctored videos and fake celebrities, and use lethal force against his opponents.

Fukuda said there will be peace; he never said the people would be happy.
You answered your own question Fukuda said so, that's the way it was written. Rather then having everyone who disagreed to leave, Dulandell has everyone who disagrees with it participate, which would ensure total peace, no chance of something happening down the road, he ensures peace permanently. What the Destiny plan would do is determine what your best at and have you do that. It's much like society already does for you. Most people are already pressured into accepting jobs. That why most people aren't contempt with they're jobs in real life.
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Old 2009-07-11, 12:40   Link #1165
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
You answered your own question Fukuda said so, that's the way it was written. Rather then having everyone who disagreed to leave, Dulandell has everyone who disagrees with it participate, which would ensure total peace, no chance of something happening down the road, he ensures peace permanently. What the Destiny plan would do is determine what your best at and have you do that. It's much like society already does for you. Most people are already pressured into accepting jobs. That why most people aren't contempt with they're jobs in real life.
"Have everyone who disagrees with it participate"?

And how is he going to do that? Why would someone who disagree want to participate?

It makes as much sense,, as I said earlier, to "Have everyone who want to start a war, to not start a war".

If you can somehow magically make everyone do things the way you want, no questions asked, then there wouldn't be a war to begin with.

If you can pressure everyone into accepting Destiny Plan even if they don't want to, then you can pressure everyone into having no war even if they want to fight. In which case we can skip the Genetic-testing machine as redundant and useless.
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Old 2009-07-11, 13:11   Link #1166
Foreshadow
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
"Have everyone who disagrees with it participate"?

And how is he going to do that? Why would someone who disagree want to participate?
That what that thing called Neo Genesis is for... Having people that don't want to participate, participate.

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
It makes as much sense,, as I said earlier, to "Have everyone who want to start a war, to not start a war".

If you can somehow magically make everyone do things the way you want, no questions asked, then there wouldn't be a war to begin with.

If you can pressure everyone into accepting Destiny Plan even if they don't want to, then you can pressure everyone into having no war even if they want to fight. In which case we can skip the Genetic-testing machine as redundant and useless.
But rather then having a giant laser loom on your at every second, Which would obviously call for resistance, the Destiny plan eliminates the uncertainty factor and totally seals the chance that anything else could occur. Holding people down with Force only warrants more force. But if Dullendal pressures them into the Destiny plan, then Everybody would have no choice but to stop fighting. Why? Because the Destiny plan works.
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Old 2009-07-11, 13:21   Link #1167
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
That what that thing called Neo Genesis is for... Having people that don't want to participate, participate.
Neo Genesis doesn't make people participate, Neo Genesis kill people. The point is to kill everyone who disagree with Gilbert, which by the way is a type of war. Thus it fails as an anti-war mechanism.


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But rather then having a giant laser loom on your at every second, Which would obviously call for resistance, the Destiny plan eliminates the uncertainty factor and totally seals the chance that anything else could occur. Holding people down with Force only warrants more force. But if Dullendal pressures them into the Destiny plan, then Everybody would have no choice but to stop fighting. Why? Because the Destiny plan works.
"But if Dullendal pressures them".... With WHAT?
You just said that holding people down with force doesn't work, but what else but force does Dullendal have to pressure people with?

The official Destiny Plan exerts no force at all; it is just a job selection machine.

Tell me... Exactly what "pressure" could Dullendal apply that doesn't involve force?
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Old 2009-07-11, 13:44   Link #1168
Foreshadow
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Neo Genesis doesn't make people participate, Neo Genesis kill people. The point is to kill everyone who disagree with Gilbert, which by the way is a type of war. Thus it fails as an anti-war mechanism.
Neo Genesis is a deterrent, it's participate or die.


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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
"But if Dullendal pressures them".... With WHAT?
You just said that holding people down with force doesn't work, but what else but force does Dullendal have to pressure people with?

The official Destiny Plan exerts no force at all; it is just a job selection machine.

Tell me... Exactly what "pressure" could Dullendal apply that doesn't involve force?
when i said holding people down with force doesn't work, it was directly to this quote:
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
then you can pressure everyone into having no war even if they want to fight. In which case we can skip the Genetic-testing machine as redundant and useless.

It's quite obvious that Dullendal would rather use the media "to deceive the populations at will with doctored videos and fake celebrities", but the answer that Orb used was we'll never accept. The Destiny plan only eliminates all possibilities of war if the entire population participates. if a nation such as Orb doesn't participate, with that much power, what isn't stopping them from starting a war again in the future? Not all the leaders of Orb will be like Cagalli, sticking to ideals. The use of force now warrants the end result: Everlasting Peace.

The point I'm trying to reiterate is that the Destiny plan was the best course of action.
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Old 2009-07-11, 13:57   Link #1169
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So you're basically saying the whole world should have been forced into the Destiny Plan or die? That makes Durandal no different from any other villian who had a plan that would generally benefit the world except from the fact that they were forcing it on the world with no choice and killing anyone who disagreed. Like Schinziel from Code Geass (who also had the director say his plan would work perfectly, just that a minority of people would suffer because of it) or Light from DN.
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Old 2009-07-11, 14:04   Link #1170
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The ANIME
Japanese children's cartoons, yes, we're familiar with the term...

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told you it would be a dystopian police state, because otherwise the death ray would not be necessary.
That's not a dystopian state, and you know it.
The people who told us that the Destiny Plan was bad and evil were Lacus and co... who didn't even know what the plan entailed or what it was until after Durandel revealed it. Since they were already committed to fighting Durandel even before the Plan, they're the definition of a biased party.

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Destiny Plan WILL solve the problems of the SEED world. Except as you pointed out, it require everyone who disagreed with it to leave.
No, I didn't, because it doesn't. The Destiny Plan allows, not requires, the dissatisfied to leave. People who remain are forced to comply with the system, but that's true of every system, regardless how benign or well-intentioned.
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So why can't we just solve the problem with the SEED world by requiring everyone who want to have wars to leave and never come back?
Because according to Destiny, and discussed in Rau and Durandle's conversations, the problem is with human nature itself. The Destiny Plan addresses that problem itself, and that's why it works; it allows good leaders to rise, while preventing the rise of those like Djirble and LOGOS who would wage war and massacre for greed, racism, or hate.
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I am not disagreeing with Fukuda, the Director, when he claimed the world would be at peace forever under Destiny Plan. As long as the Police State works, there would be peace. Your claim that it wouldn't be a police-state is entirely contrary to what we have shown with Gilbert, who clearly manipulate the media as to deceive the populations at will with doctored videos and fake celebrities, and use lethal force against his opponents.

Fukuda said there will be peace; he never said the people would be happy.
He never said they would be sad, miserable, or unhappy either. Even the hypothetical unhappy job argument is flawed, because if someone disliked a job then they wouldn't be as good at it (anyone who works with people will tell you a good worker is a motivated worker, and miserable people aren't motivated workers), which counters the stated role and success of the Destiny Plan. Only one group of people, Lacus's faction, argued that the Destiny Plan would make people unhappy. The people who actually did live under the Destiny Plan, the martians, tend to disagree.

And really, who's happy with the status quo? The Naturals, who are both jealous of and furious towards the coordinators? The PLANTS, whose citizens are dismissive of naturals but eternally afraid of their own genocide? Lacus and Kira, who despair at the conflicts and feel compelled against their desires to fight? Athrun, who constantly doubts his cause? Cagelli, who is surrounded on all sides by people, friend and foe alike, who would have her sacrifice her father's ideals? People like Shinn, who continue to lose family and friends in the reoccurring conflicts?

Who is happy? And who actually tried to address the problems that caused the world's unhappiness?
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Old 2009-07-11, 14:07   Link #1171
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
So you're basically saying the whole world should have been forced into the Destiny Plan or die? That makes Durandal no different from any other villian who had a plan that would generally benefit the world except from the fact that they were forcing it on the world with no choice and killing anyone who disagreed. Like Schinziel from Code Geass (who also had the director say his plan would work perfectly, just that a minority of people would suffer because of it) or Light from DN.
Light is the odd man out in that triumverate of villainy, I'm afraid. His vision of utopia (and, to an extent, Schniziel's) was based entirely on himself, and he's only mortal. Durandal's plan is institutional, and would maintain peace long after him. Light's eliminate-the-weakest philosophy was fundamentally flawed from the start; there would always be a bottom 10% to be removed, and so in the end Light's path would kill everyone. Schniziel might have been able to set up a stable system that lasted past his death, but it would depend on threat of nukes. The Destiny Plan only requires the death laser to get those who would refuse and resist (which, at the time of the final episode, was only Orb and the Kingdom of the Netherlands) to initially join, after which it would eventually reform the populace so the need would go away.

But as to your first sentence, not quite. It would be better to say that the whole world of Destiny should accept the Destiny Plan, or it will kill itself repeatedly until it destroys itself.
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Old 2009-07-11, 14:10   Link #1172
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Dean I've explained where I believe Durandal proves that he will force the world into the Destiny Plan and you keep ignoring it. I don't know what else to say than to prove my point.

Like I said before the whole reason Lacus and Kira go to the final battle against Durandal is that he has a destructive WMD that they believe he will fire at their home country if they reject the Plan (which they want to do). There point wasn't that DP was bad but that Requieming anyone who refused it was.

Also at no point does Fukuda imply that the world of CE would destroy itself within years without the DP. That's just Durandal supporter bias talking. For all we know Kira and Lacus might do a great job of keeping the world safe.
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Old 2009-07-11, 14:14   Link #1173
Foreshadow
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Dean I've explained where I believe Durandal proves that he will force the world into the Destiny Plan and you keep ignoring it. I don't know what else to say than to prove my point.

Like I said before the whole reason Lacus and Kira go to the final battle against Durandal is that he has a destructive WMD that they believe he will fire at their home country if they reject the Plan (which they want to do). There point wasn't that DP was bad but that Requieming anyone who refused it was.

Also at no point does Fukuda imply that the world of CE would destroy itself within years without the DP. That's just Durandal supporter bias talking. For all we know Kira and Lacus might do a great job of keeping the world safe.
The time gap between seed and Destiny would indicate wars happen quite frequently in the world of SEED. Another issue with that is If there is no total participation it would jeopardize the effectiveness of the Destiny plan.

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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
So you're basically saying the whole world should have been forced into the Destiny Plan or die? That makes Durandal no different from any other villian who had a plan that would generally benefit the world except from the fact that they were forcing it on the world with no choice and killing anyone who disagreed. Like Schinziel from Code Geass (who also had the director say his plan would work perfectly, just that a minority of people would suffer because of it) or Light from DN.
The problem with schneizal's plan was it was a forceful oppression, it didn't eliminate all possibilities of conflict peacefully, whereas the DP does. And Yes, i am one of those types of people who tend to agree with alittle bit of sacrifice for the greater good.
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Old 2009-07-11, 14:19   Link #1174
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Then that makes Durandal a villian for trying to force his plan on the world. There's nothing noble about that. That's inexcusable. People have the God given right to make their own choices in life. If Durandal was really a great guy he would have let Orb refuse. But he's not so he's no better than a tyrant. Whether you are right or not you can't force your methods on others. It's wrong.
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Old 2009-07-11, 14:20   Link #1175
Foreshadow
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Then that makes Durandal a villian for trying to force his plan on the world. There's nothing noble about that. That's inexcusable. People have the God given right to make their own choices in life. If Durandal was really a great guy he would have let Orb refuse. But he's not so he's no better than a tyrant. Whether you are right or not you can't force your methods on others. It's wrong.
I never said Dullendal was a great guy, I simply said the DP is one Effective plan, which yields the best results in what they were looking for: Peace.
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Old 2009-07-11, 14:23   Link #1176
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Dean I've explained where I believe Durandal proves that he will force the world into the Destiny Plan and you keep ignoring it. I don't know what else to say than to prove my point.
I've never disagreed that Durandal will make everyone participate, willingly or not. I disagree that it's a bad thing for the Seed universe.
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Like I said before the whole reason Lacus and Kira go to the final battle against Durandal is that he has a destructive WMD that they believe he will fire at their home country if they reject the Plan (which they want to do). There point wasn't that DP was bad but that Requieming anyone who refused it was.
Lacus and Kira were committed to fighting Durandal well before then. They were opposing him by show of force after denouncing the Destiny Plan before the lasers were revealed. They were committed to fighting him before he even announced the Destiny Plan, when they and the Orb forces began moving into space before his announcement. They were fighting him at Orb, when he was pursuing a legitimate target and they interfered and allowed Dijirble to escape, after they looked for and found nothing wrong with Durandel's actions. They repeatedly attacked and killed ZAFT forces before then.

And, funnily enough, they've been fighting him all along with their own WMD, which they have been using every time. Yes, Neutron Jammer Canceler suits are considered WMDs in the Seed verse, which Lacus should definitely know. She helped mediate the treaty that declared them so, after all.
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Also at no point does Fukuda imply that the world of CE would destroy itself within years with the DP. That's just Durandal supporter bias talking. For all we know Kira and Lacus might do a great job of keeping the world safe
And how are they going to do that? By force of arms and control of ZAFT. Fukuda didn't imply the world was going to destroy itself within years, but he did say that Lacus and Kira didn't solve any of the underlying problems and tensions that set off the conflict in the first place. Either they're going to keep forcing peace through intervention far longer than enacting the Destiny Plan would require, or else the next war will break out. After the first two wars, I don't give the Earth too many more wars.
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Old 2009-07-11, 14:24   Link #1177
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Then that makes Durandal a villian for trying to force his plan on the world. There's nothing noble about that. That's inexcusable. People have the God given right to make their own choices in life. If Durandal was really a great guy he would have let Orb refuse. But he's not so he's no better than a tyrant. Whether you are right or not you can't force your methods on others. It's wrong.
So, Durandal is now equivalent to Lacus Clyne?
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Old 2009-07-11, 14:25   Link #1178
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Yes but it's his method in implimenting it that I have issues with. If he truly would have let people leave the plan then fine. But he clearly wasn't. That is why I supported Lacus and Kira. I'm not a sacrifice for the greater good kinda person.

Yes Lacus and Kira fought Durandal because they believe he tried to kill them and made a fake Lacus so that he could use Lacus's own influence for his own goals. (which I've also supported with evidence btw)

And I hardly think a powerful MS that has it's pilot carefully aim to not kill most of the time (yeah sometimes it can't be helped but for the most part Kira is very good at not killing people despite what the Kira haters would lead you to believe) is comparable to a giant gun that only kills. Maybe if Kira slaughtered everyone in his path maybe, but he doesn't.

Also there's no evidence that Lacus had an evil plot to take over Zaft. It just sort of happened. Lacus fought Durandal to take away his WMD that he was going to fire. Before that she fought against him because he was hostile to her and her allied country of Orb
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Old 2009-07-11, 14:30   Link #1179
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Yes but it's his method in implimenting it that I have issues with. If he truly would have let people leave the plan then fine. But he clearly wasn't.
Um, you haven't made that clear at all. All you've done is argue that Durandal is going to make the nations of the world agree to set up the system one way or another, which was never argued. You have not made clear that Durandal is not going to allow individual people to leave after the system is set up.

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That is why I supported Lacus and Kira. I'm not a sacrifice for the greater good kinda person.
Yes you are. You just don't realize it yet. Start with the concept of taxation, national security, or public safety, and you'll find that you do. Just how much might surprise you, since it's a surprisingly slippery philosophical slope.
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Old 2009-07-11, 14:36   Link #1180
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If he won't let nations refuse the plan why would he let individuals leave? In fact where on Earth would they go? They'd have to basically give up their lives and head off into space somewhere.

But of course noone will probably want to refuse Durandal after the nation of Orb, and maybe Scandinavia were Requiemed into oblivion (which is what would have happened had Lacus faction not attacked him). So Durandal will basically terrify the world into obeying and ruling through fear. And any nation that decides they don't like the plan afterwards would also be threatened with Requiem. So while they'll be no wars peace will also have been effectively enforced through giant gun point.

Also I don't support taxation, national security, or public safety at the expense of any other person either. But people do it and I'm not in a position to stop them.
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